Quote from: SP23;1067010I've come to find out that the DM is very close friends with this shitstain, and is well aware of the racism, so at this point, this group is for sure splitting up. He never spoke up once during the entire shit show, that equals consent from him in my eyes.

The DM is friends with a 19 year old?

"When they came for the Communists, I did not speak, for I was not a Communist.." I encountered the same thing today. David Icke is doing a tour of Australia, and people are trying to shame theatres into not hosting him. He's anti-semitic and anti-vaccination, and I am a Jew who has his children vaccinated - and I'm not worried, because he's just a fruit loop. "How could you -" I was asked. Evidently the shamer was upset that I am not playing correctly my part as a helpless victim so that the shamer can continue their virtue signalling.

Really, this politics of indignation and shaming has got to end. "How could you associate with -" is just silly. The DM's job is to slap down racism, and also slap down indignation and shaming. Because it interferes with the game. And the game must go on.

That's why they slap it down in the military. They will likewise slap down Social Justice Warriors and all kinds of dumb shit. Because it interferes with getting shit done.

The game must go on. I don't care if you're praising Myaforg or condemning it. Shut the fuck up and roll the dice.

Who's friends with a 19 year old? Except another 19 year old? And if you're letting a 19 year old DM you, then you deserve what you get. A 19 year old DM is like a second lieutenant without a helpful platoon sergeant to guide him.

Quote from: David Johansen;1067015Your first?  Really?  Around here they're a dime a dozen.

Oh, I'm well aware of the politics of therpgsite. I've spent years, a decade(?) perusing the Pundit's forum. This was just the first such experience in meatspace.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1067032The DM is friends with a 19 year old?

"When they came for the Communists, I did not speak, for I was not a Communist.." I encountered the same thing today. David Icke is doing a tour of Australia, and people are trying to shame theatres into not hosting him. He's anti-semitic and anti-vaccination, and I am a Jew who has his children vaccinated - and I'm not worried, because he's just a fruit loop. "How could you -" I was asked. Evidently the shamer was upset that I am not playing correctly my part as a helpless victim so that the shamer can continue their virtue signalling.

Really, this politics of indignation and shaming has got to end. "How could you associate with -" is just silly. The DM's job is to slap down racism, and also slap down indignation and shaming. Because it interferes with the game. And the game must go on.

That's why they slap it down in the military. They will likewise slap down Social Justice Warriors and all kinds of dumb shit. Because it interferes with getting shit done.

The game must go on. I don't care if you're praising Myaforg or condemning it. Shut the fuck up and roll the dice.

Who's friends with a 19 year old? Except another 19 year old? And if you're letting a 19 year old DM you, then you deserve what you get. A 19 year old DM is like a second lieutenant without a helpful platoon sergeant to guide him.

The players were 44, 39, late 20's (not sure), and the 19 year old. The DM was late 20's early 30's. Why is he friends with a racist 10 years his junior, idk, and I never will as I'll never play with either one of them again.

So only one of you could have been playing D&D for 35 years, if he started at 9yo, I doubt the 39yo started at 5, and the others weren't born 35 years ago.

19 year olds are dumb, which is why the military has lessons like Shark described. You need to spell things out very clearly for them, and come down like a tonne of shit on any deviation. This is particularly so today when so many have absent fathers; I'd bet money your racist 19yo had an absent father. The DM, like the CSM, has to take his place and order things properly to stop the 19yo making mistakes which get them killed or totally fuck up their lives.

For example: blatant racism, as well as getting you binned from game groups, doesn't exactly help your career prospects. You can be subtly prejudiced, which is one reason Australia has more CEOs named Dave than women CEOs. But you can't be blatant about it. So you need to learn to shut the fuck up and roll the dice, or clean your rifle, or write your KPI report or whatever the fuck it is that office workers do all day.

A 30yo with a 19yo friend has a friend who is dumb, whether they're racist or not. If the DM didn't slap down shit that interrupted the game session, then the DM is dumb, too, which might be why he was friends with a 19yo.

You need a competent DM, or to become one and run your own games.

Quote from: SP23;1066996The group is probably not going to continue, the racist will certainly not be invited if anyone else DM's a new game, and I'm extremely disappointed in the DM just by association with such a piece of shit player. Mostly just needed to vent, cause it was frankly unbelievable for me to encounter such a person in the real world!

You sound like you're anti-diversity.  Shame shame. /sarc

A while ago, once the Holidays are over, I was contemplating doing some Open Table gaming at the FLGS near my house. I was wondering if I could get away with having the stipulation that all players must be 35 or older. After reading this thread, I'm thinking that it may be a good decision to implement.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1067039So only one of you could have been playing D&D for 35 years, if he started at 9yo, I doubt the 39yo started at 5, and the others weren't born 35 years ago.

19 year olds are dumb, which is why the military has lessons like Shark described. You need to spell things out very clearly for them, and come down like a tonne of shit on any deviation. This is particularly so today when so many have absent fathers; I'd bet money your racist 19yo had an absent father. The DM, like the CSM, has to take his place and order things properly to stop the 19yo making mistakes which get them killed or totally fuck up their lives.

For example: blatant racism, as well as getting you binned from game groups, doesn't exactly help your career prospects. You can be subtly prejudiced, which is one reason Australia has more CEOs named Dave than women CEOs. But you can't be blatant about it. So you need to learn to shut the fuck up and roll the dice, or clean your rifle, or write your KPI report or whatever the fuck it is that office workers do all day.

A 30yo with a 19yo friend has a friend who is dumb, whether they're racist or not. If the DM didn't slap down shit that interrupted the game session, then the DM is dumb, too, which might be why he was friends with a 19yo.

You need a competent DM, or to become one and run your own games.

Greetings!

Hey there, Kyle. Funny post! 19 year olds can sure be full of stupid!:) I also get what you were saying about talking to such an idiot, perhaps seeking to teach someone in a sincere manner that their attitude is very morally wrong. Hopefully, I imagine, in an effort to salvage a potential friendly relationship, and also simply to help make such a person a better person. I can get that motive, and I think there is some merit to it.

However, having a wife or girlfriend for example, and say several of your game friends also have their wives or girlfriends play as members of your group, as well. In such a situation, I've seen something like this: Wife of friend says "Hey, SHARK...Mike's new friend he brought from his work? I say, Yeah? What about him? She says...He's creepy. I didn't like the way he kept staring at my ass every time I got up to get some coffee. Then my wife says, yeah! He made me feel like he was creepy, too. It weirded me out the way he went on about killing the Halfling thief, over and over, you know? Then one of the other wives or girlfriend's chime in, and then I look at a couple of my buddies--they look at me, shrugging helplessly."

That guy is gone, you know? I suppose it is possible to try and "rehabilitate" someone like that, in a particular kind of group, but man, I can just imagine the huge drama I would have heard from my wife or a girlfriend about someone that was *racist*. The women would have zero mercy for them, and would certainly not expect me, or any other of the guys in the group to have any mercy for them either. No empathy. No "understanding". No "having a talk" with them. You know? The only "talk" with them would be why they aren't being invited to game with us again.

So, yeah. He's fucking done. Like Chris said, I think, he's on his way to being a basement-dwelling misanthrope! LOL

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jeff37923;1067044A while ago, once the Holidays are over, I was contemplating doing some Open Table gaming at the FLGS near my house. I was wondering if I could get away with having the stipulation that all players must be 35 or older. After reading this thread, I'm thinking that it may be a good decision to implement.

Greetings!

WISDOM, BROTHER!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1067047That guy is gone, you know? I suppose it is possible to try and "rehabilitate" someone like that, in a particular kind of group, but man, I can just imagine the huge drama I would have heard from my wife or a girlfriend about someone that was *racist*. The women would have zero mercy for them, and would certainly not expect me, or any other of the guys in the group to have any mercy for them either. No empathy. No "understanding". No "having a talk" with them. You know? The only "talk" with them would be why they aren't being invited to game with us again.

When I see phrases like "zero mercy," "no empathy," and an unwillingness to communicate, all I can think is that you're allowing the problem to grow. If you help to push a young adult (really, at 19 most people are hardly set in their ways) into a fast track to the "basement-dwelling misanthrope" pit, don't be too surprised when they likewise put up walls of "zero mercy," "no empathy," and an unwillingness to communicate. You might think that just leaves them to suffer, but that's not the way it tends to work. Much better I think to approach them with empathy and understanding (but not acceptance of abhorrent behaviors) and let them choose to either behave and stay around good-minded people or to stick with their bad behaviors and pull away on their own. This way they know they have the power to belong or not and cannot feed their ugliness off of being "your victim."

Quote from: HappyDaze;1067051When I see phrases like "zero mercy," "no empathy," and an unwillingness to communicate, all I can think is that you're allowing the problem to grow. If you help to push a young adult (really, at 19 most people are hardly set in their ways) into a fast track to the "basement-dwelling misanthrope" pit, don't be too surprised when they likewise put up walls of "zero mercy," "no empathy," and an unwillingness to communicate. You might think that just leaves them to suffer, but that's not the way it tends to work. Much better I think to approach them with empathy and understanding (but not acceptance of abhorrent behaviors) and let them choose to either behave and stay around good-minded people or to stick with their bad behaviors and pull away on their own. This way they know they have the power to belong or not and cannot feed their ugliness off of being "your victim."

This player is very, very intelligent overall, he's made a conscious choice to have these views, and sees nothing wrong with them even when confronted.

Quote from: jeff37923;1067044A while ago, once the Holidays are over, I was contemplating doing some Open Table gaming at the FLGS near my house. I was wondering if I could get away with having the stipulation that all players must be 35 or older. After reading this thread, I'm thinking that it may be a good decision to implement.

Eeeeh. Stupidity doesn't have an age restriction.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1067051When I see phrases like "zero mercy," "no empathy," and an unwillingness to communicate, all I can think is that you're allowing the problem to grow. If you help to push a young adult (really, at 19 most people are hardly set in their ways) into a fast track to the "basement-dwelling misanthrope" pit, don't be too surprised when they likewise put up walls of "zero mercy," "no empathy," and an unwillingness to communicate. You might think that just leaves them to suffer, but that's not the way it tends to work. Much better I think to approach them with empathy and understanding (but not acceptance of abhorrent behaviors) and let them choose to either behave and stay around good-minded people or to stick with their bad behaviors and pull away on their own. This way they know they have the power to belong or not and cannot feed their ugliness off of being "your victim."

Greetings!

Yeah, Happydaze. That sounds very nice in theory. However, I don't think any of that would matter one bit to a strong-willed Hispanic girlfriend, her cousin, and another Hispanic girlfriend--the wife of another player--at all. I can just imagine what they would say. "So, you think a racist is welcome in our home? REALLY?" and then the three of them would no doubt start swearing at me in Spanish. Their husband and boyfriend would hear about it up one side and down the other. I can just see them coming to me, saying, "SHARK, bro, that new guy...man, he just has to go, compadre. You know how the girls are."

They would assume that guy's problems are *his*--not theirs. What some maladjusted racist does in his basement or with his life, and how he "feels" would not be important to them at all. None of them are psychologists, and they wouldn't feel they are in the business of "therapy"--especially for a racist. Whatever his problems are, are his own to deal with, and he's free to do that--but he wouldn't be doing that in their homes. No fucking way. They wouldn't want someone like that in their home, and that would be the end of that discussion, my friend. It may sound harsh, but that's how life can be.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SP23;1067052This player is very, very intelligent overall, he's made a conscious choice to have these views, and sees nothing wrong with them even when confronted.

It's just a game, and no one has the responsibility to reform anyone. At my table, if someone started up with that stuff, I'd tell them to stow it or look for a new group.

But... (There's always a but) in the overal scheme of things, I'm of the opinion that compassion has the best value (but no guarantee) of turning racists around.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/keshia-thomas_us_57c4c5a0e4b0cdfc5ac8f008
https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes

Quote from: SP23;1067052This player is very, very intelligent overall, he's made a conscious choice to have these views, and sees nothing wrong with them even when confronted.

I still say let the choice to stay with the group (and drop the racism) or go (and do whatever he wants) be his. Just make these two choices very clear and let him use his intelligence to make an informed decision.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1067060I still say let the choice to stay with the group (and drop the racism) or go (and do whatever he wants) be his. Just make these two choices very clear and let him use his intelligence to make an informed decision.

Well, both the problem player and the DM are no longer part of the gaming group. The core members will just recruit new people.