Since we're discussing cyberpunk in various threads, its time to revisit a classic issue: loss of empathy (or humanity, or something else?) due to too much cybernetic augs. Mechanically, it was a way to limit or regulate cyberware getting out of control. Did it work?
Thematically it stands on its own merits. Or not? Many people did not like it then, and still don't.
I'm brainstorming an idea where replacing a body part that's been accidentally severed or destroyed won't reduce your empathy, but voluntarily doing so will. Grafting on cyberware from a defeated foe, even more so.
What say you?
In Cyberpunk 2020, its both strongly thematic and a strong balancing mechanism. Otherwise, you wind up with Borgs from Rifts where there's no reason to not be a meat brain inside a metal tank. I remember playing a Partial Borg in Rifts and the other players hated that I didn't go for the full conversion, but my whole concept was an escaped slave-borg who had been chopped and chipped against her will.
In CP2020, once you start trading meat for power, you head down the slippery slope to going bonkers. You can stop at any time, but its easy to want that new matching limb.
If you're replacing lost parts, why not go for meat instead? It gives you a limb back, without any cost. I haven't read CP2020 in a decade, but I remember that being an option.
Quote from: Aglondir;1092816I'm brainstorming an idea where replacing a body part that's been accidentally severed or destroyed won't reduce your empathy, but voluntarily doing so will. Grafting on cyberware from a defeated foe, even more so.
What say you?
I follow and agree with the argument that replacing a lost limb is qualitatively different from having someone saw off a perfectly functional appendage and that doing the latter would have more negative consequences than doing the former.
To me it would make more sense to make the cost of replacing a lost limb greater than zero, but significantly less than sawing off a good limb. One option would be to make replacement 1/2 cost (or 1/4 or some fraction that makes sense) of voluntary removal. Another option would be to base the loss of humanity on failing some sort of saving throw. Voluntary removal could be automatic loss or just have a significantly higher probability of losing humanity than replacement. That way replacement might or might not cost humanity. If the saving throw was based on a mechanic akin to Sanity in Call of Cthulhu or Passions in Pendragon that would be even better.
It fits really well depending on the setting and more importantly the premise and sophistication, or lack thereof, of the tech.
How much tactile feedback vs sensory deprivation is there with the cybernetics? How well can you feel with that cyberarm? Full, a little, none?
Why is this important? Because the less feedback you get from the cybernetics the potentially higher the disconnect as it were.
Or if you want a current day example. Any standard VR headset on the market, or even just a really good red-blue 3D video. There is little tactile feedback VR and none with 3d.
Now imagine experiencing that 24/7.
Then add on any brain replacement cybernetics and depending on how intigrated or not that stuff is. You can very easily start losing what makes you human. Possibly to the point that all thats left is mostly subroutines being overseen by whatever few remaining grey cells are left in the armature.
And this really becomes important if there is any sort of metaphysical element as well in the setting. Does the cyberware mesh well with psi? Or are they some degree of incompatibility?
Rifts is overall a cyber-friendly setting. CP2020 and Shadowrun are very not cyber-friendly. And Nights Edge is worst case scenario not cyber-friendly. Other settings have varying levels of good and bad. Such as high end expensive cybernetics are pretty safe. But cheap low end jobs are potentially anything but.
Now add to the mix the subjects mental stability and depending on their outlook even a little cyber could be a bad idea. Dont stick it in the crazy.
[video=youtube;NJIjNs_s2NI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJIjNs_s2NI[/youtube]
Mechanically, my players would usually stack some Empathy (not at the cost of Ref though) to get more cyberware. So It kinda sorta worked, in that players had to be aware of how much HC they were racking up. though with some smart purchases, you were usually good. Ref booster, skinweave, a smartgun link and a cybereye is usually safe even for a character with average Emp.
Thematically, I thought it fit very well. Power at the cost of humanity. The lurking danger of some NPC with a little too much cyberware going nuts.
In hindsight, I'd probably do up a psychosis table for players with low Emp to roll on. Character knocking on cyberpsychosis should start showing symptoms at Emp 3-1.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1092836[video=youtube;NJIjNs_s2NI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJIjNs_s2NI[/youtube]
Mechanically, my players would usually stack some Empathy (not at the cost of Ref though) to get more cyberware. So It kinda sorta worked, in that players had to be aware of how much HC they were racking up. though with some smart purchases, you were usually good. Ref booster, skinweave, a smartgun link and a cybereye is usually safe even for a character with average Emp.
Thematically, I thought it fit very well. Power at the cost of humanity. The lurking danger of some NPC with a little too much cyberware going nuts.
In hindsight, I'd probably do up a psychosis table for players with low Emp to roll on. Character knocking on cyberpsychosis should start showing symptoms at Emp 3-1.
TBH Mirrorshades has one:
3d6 CYBERPSYCHOSIS
3 Hatred against humanity. Make WIS or INT checks to see if character acts on it.
4-5 Spaced out. Total fascination with abstracts. Loss of human feeling. Make WIS or INT check to snap out of it.
6-7 Paranoia.
8-9 Rejection of biological life in favor of cyberware. Will attempt to replace all human parts with cyberware.
10-11 Rejection of cyberware in favor of humanity. Will attempt to remove all cyberware in favor of organic material.
12-13 Delusions of invincibility.
14-15 Character lives in a fantasy world and acts accordingly.
16-17 Character has lost all sense of meaning in his life. It's possible he goes looking for a cult or a religion that helps him cope.
18 Character develops one or more phobias (fear of heights, narrow rooms, crowds, etc.). If something triggers the phobia, make WIS or INT check to resist acting on it.
I never liked cyberpsychosis. It didn't really fit with the genre to my mind - and seemed quasi-mystic. (Essence fit better with Shadowrun because of the explicit magic.)
It seemed to me that in cyberpunk, money was the real power, and that could be the main limit on cyberware. A billionaire could have all the cyberware they wanted.
Quote from: Aglondir;1092816Since we're discussing cyberpunk in various threads, its time to revisit a classic issue: loss of empathy (or humanity, or something else?) due to too much cybernetic augs. Mechanically, it was a way to limit or regulate cyberware getting out of control. Did it work?
Thematically it stands on its own merits. Or not? Many people did not like it then, and still don't.
I'm brainstorming an idea where replacing a body part that's been accidentally severed or destroyed won't reduce your empathy, but voluntarily doing so will. Grafting on cyberware from a defeated foe, even more so.
What say you?
Reading all the other comments thus far makes me think of Major Motoko from Ghost in the shell.
I mean, she's fully loaded, but also don't seem to have lost THAT MUCH empathy....
On the other hand, she is also a deliberate powerhouse that really isn't fit as a regular player character.
As i see it, it is thematically what i would call "iffy", as i rather imagine one might go full tank with little to no actual loss, while another may go nuts over an arm if it doesn't suit them.
So the connection more bionics = more loss may be effective in limiting the use of bionics, but really, there would eventually arrive means of avoiding "cyber-psychosis" in varying ways.
Really, for starters, if you are willing to chop off a limb to get a leg-up on the competition, then you might actually
lack empathy to begin with.
While, on the other hand, if it is to recover a limb you lost in an accident, your empathy may very well be fully intact.
A lot relies also on things like self-image and ideals, but there is also the point of
"this is dangerous, we have to research to make something better!"
vs
"This is comparatively cheap and/or easy, and research costs money."
that would affect whether bionics would result in cyber-psychosis or not.
One might get around it with "Quality costs", of course.
It worked great. I always found it quite believable and I enforced it ruthlessly because I'm sorry... voluntarily dismembering yourself, replacing your limbs with superhuman equivalents, having your remaining dermis toughened with bullet-proof fibers, and then having sections of your face removed and refitted for replaceable modular parts, including multiple eyes. Possibly having multiple organs replaced...
yeah that's going to cause a disconnect.
You have people *today* choosing to not socialize with others simply because of the synaptic circuits firing in different patterns in their heads. You have people choosing to cleave to their respective sub-culture based on melanin content in their skin... You have people that put body-piercings in their faces, tattoos on their heads and necks that then only associate with other like-minded people, and you think going cyber wouldn't cause an even greater disconnect??
Yeah... CP2020 was doing the whole freak-out "I hate society" massacre thing long before it became vogue in real life. I don't think the game influences real life, mind you. I think it described something that was bound to happen because of the decay of the social fabric. Worse - it did it with pin-point accuracy to the degree that the very people that believe America is "problematic" due to their own disassociation issues with those American values (i.e. Western European values) - is one of the big causes of the calamity that befalls America and then the rest of the world.
Cyberpsychosis, when we get to that tech-level - will be a thing. Morons in real-life today can't even handle reality as it is. Imagine when they have a cyberwear to punch "Nazis".
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092847TBH Mirrorshades has one:
3d6 CYBERPSYCHOSIS
3 Hatred against humanity. Make WIS or INT checks to see if character acts on it.
4-5 Spaced out. Total fascination with abstracts. Loss of human feeling. Make WIS or INT check to snap out of it.
6-7 Paranoia.
8-9 Rejection of biological life in favor of cyberware. Will attempt to replace all human parts with cyberware.
10-11 Rejection of cyberware in favor of humanity. Will attempt to remove all cyberware in favor of organic material.
12-13 Delusions of invincibility.
14-15 Character lives in a fantasy world and acts accordingly.
16-17 Character has lost all sense of meaning in his life. It's possible he goes looking for a cult or a religion that helps him cope.
18 Character develops one or more phobias (fear of heights, narrow rooms, crowds, etc.). If something triggers the phobia, make WIS or INT check to resist acting on it.
aha! Ty.
Quote from: Catelf;1092864Reading all the other comments thus far makes me think of Major Motoko from Ghost in the shell.
I mean, she's fully loaded, but also don't seem to have lost THAT MUCH empathy....
On the other hand, she is also a deliberate powerhouse that really isn't fit as a regular player character.
There are therapy rules, and Motoko has the resources of the government to provide it. If she were a 2020 character.
Quote from: tenbones;1092868Cyberpsychosis, when we get to that tech-level - will be a thing. Morons in real-life today can't even handle reality as it is. Imagine when they have a cyberwear to punch "Nazis".
The future is now.
"Our children became very plugged in around the year 2000," Borda told me during our podcast interview. "It's very hard to be empathetic and feel for another human being if you can't read another person's emotions. You don't learn emotional literacy facing a screen. You don't learn emotional literacy with emojis."
https://medium.com/@alonshwartz/our-kids-are-losing-their-empathy-technology-has-a-lot-to-do-with-it-7f18f2654a7f
Quote from: Catelf;1092864Reading all the other comments thus far makes me think of Major Motoko from Ghost in the shell.
I mean, she's fully loaded, but also don't seem to have lost THAT MUCH empathy....
On the other hand, she is also a deliberate powerhouse that really isn't fit as a regular player character.
I disagree about Motoko Kusanagi because the origin of the character has her suffering a horrific accident as a young child which led to her brain and nervous system being placed in a full cyborg body. Motoko Kusanagi literally grew up as a cyborg, which is different from being human and then getting cybered up. Motoko Kusanagi did not lose empathy so much as she never fully developed much empathy due to her unique upbringing.
Quote from: tenbones;1092868It worked great. I always found it quite believable and I enforced it ruthlessly because I'm sorry... voluntarily dismembering yourself, replacing your limbs with superhuman equivalents, having your remaining dermis toughened with bullet-proof fibers, and then having sections of your face removed and refitted for replaceable modular parts, including multiple eyes. Possibly having multiple organs replaced...
yeah that's going to cause a disconnect.
I agree. It worked in game as long as the results were applied ruthlessly to PC and NPC alike.
In my games, I was heavily influenced by not just the literature, but associated manga and anime as well. So with cybernetics being more expensive then flesh, but neural jacks and chipware being relatively cheap, I had biodroids in my games. A biodroid is a cloned or sewn together human form with a neural jack and chipware to guide it (biodroids without the chipware were only INT 2 and pretty much just dumb creatures who had less than animal instinct to guide them). Since they were human shaped, they could use any tool that a human could use. Since only the chipware and the neural jack was expensive, a biodroid was relatively cheap and expendable. Plus you could fast-grow them to order.* Biodroids then became the new slaves for the new Corporate States, and with the right programming could pass for normal people. I used EMP as the stat required to determine if the human you were talking to was actually real or was a biodroid, so EMP became something to be desired after a few encounters with these.
I got the idea from Masamune Shirow's
Appleseed and from
Blade Runner. This was years before I ever read any C.J. Cherryh, and I wish I would have read
Cyteen while I was still running Cyberpunk for ideas.
*One mini-campaign I ran involved the PCs being hired to dig up Madonna's grave so that a Corp could grow a clone of her to use as a programmable living sex doll. I chose Madonna because in 1989, I could not think of a more annoying famous entertainer.
Quote from: jeff37923;1092880*One mini-campaign I ran involved the PCs being hired to dig up Madonna's grave so that a Corp could grow a clone of her to use as a programmable living sex doll. I chose Madonna because in 1989, I could not think of a more annoying famous entertainer.
Perhaps the New Kids on the Block?
Quote from: HappyDaze;1092881Perhaps the New Kids on the Block?
Cloning a dead singer to be a programmible RealDoll made of flesh was weird enough. Doing that with an entire boy band starts getting into Lovecraftian horror. ;)
Quote from: jeff37923;1092882Cloning a dead singer to be a programmible RealDoll made of flesh was weird enough. Doing that with an entire boy band starts getting into Lovecraftian horror. ;)
I never took you for one to stop at half measures. :D
It would get even creepier if the failed clones were ground into Wahlburgers.
This sudden turn down a dark road pleases me. Continue.
I think part of cyber-psychosis is also other peoples' reactions to your cybered state, for example you get implanted eyeshields, mirrored - because we're talking about cyberpunk. Suddenly people can't see what your eyes are doing, don't get the full spectrum of social feedback from you and become a bit more wary around you. You notice this and become a little bit paranoid because you're still the same person you always were but people are less comfortable around you. People talking to you may be more guarded because you might be recording everything they say and do for use later on, this will also have its effect.
Makes me think the rules should scale based on how obvious the 'ware is.
Quote from: Catelf;1092864Reading all the other comments thus far makes me think of Major Motoko from Ghost in the shell.
I mean, she's fully loaded, but also don't seem to have lost THAT MUCH empathy....
On the other hand, she is also a deliberate powerhouse that really isn't fit as a regular player character.
To be fair - she's not a deliberate powerhouse, and she could be moreso if she wanted to be.
Batou hassles her occasionally about not switching to a male body for more power. To mess with him at one point in the show she says that she'll prove that she doesn't need it with a match - Batou gets excited - and then she hacks him.
In addition, in the second season of the show you find out that she was in a horrible accident as a kid and was in a coma before they transferred her mind to a full prosthetic body. An early one - which was awkward. (They have this sad backstory of how she can't make paper cranes to convince a kid from the same accident who is nearly quadriplegic [he can only move one hand well] to get a prosthetic body since he's obsessed with making paper cranes.)
As to the idea of losing less humanity for replacing what you already lost: I agree that it makes sense from a fluff perspective, but it loses much of the balancing factor. After all; what's to prevent a player from saying that they totally had an accident before the campaign began. Or even doing stupid risky things to try to get damaged.
Edit: Ninja'd way before my post. Teaches me to reply before reading the second page. >.<
Quote from: tenbones;1092868It worked great. I always found it quite believable and I enforced it ruthlessly because I'm sorry... voluntarily dismembering yourself, replacing your limbs with superhuman equivalents, having your remaining dermis toughened with bullet-proof fibers, and then having sections of your face removed and refitted for replaceable modular parts, including multiple eyes. Possibly having multiple organs replaced...
yeah that's going to cause a disconnect.
You have people *today* choosing to not socialize with others simply because of the synaptic circuits firing in different patterns in their heads. You have people choosing to cleave to their respective sub-culture based on melanin content in their skin... You have people that put body-piercings in their faces, tattoos on their heads and necks that then only associate with other like-minded people, and you think going cyber wouldn't cause an even greater disconnect??
Yeah... CP2020 was doing the whole freak-out "I hate society" massacre thing long before it became vogue in real life. I don't think the game influences real life, mind you. I think it described something that was bound to happen because of the decay of the social fabric. Worse - it did it with pin-point accuracy to the degree that the very people that believe America is "problematic" due to their own disassociation issues with those American values (i.e. Western European values) - is one of the big causes of the calamity that befalls America and then the rest of the world.
Cyberpsychosis, when we get to that tech-level - will be a thing. Morons in real-life today can't even handle reality as it is. Imagine when they have a cyberwear to punch "Nazis".
Agreed. Body modification has a negative impact on the psyche of the modified person, before any social responses are factored in. This is one distinction between cyberpunk and transhumanism - in the latter, the baseline assumption is that "mind is self" and "body is interchangeable/irrelevant/disposable".
Quote from: RandyB;1092891Agreed. Body modification has a negative impact on the psyche of the modified person, before any social responses are factored in. This is one distinction between cyberpunk and transhumanism - in the latter, the baseline assumption is that "mind is self" and "body is interchangeable/irrelevant/disposable".
Yes, transhumanism has long been known to be Gnosticism dressed up for the 21st century. :)
Quote from: jhkim;1092859I never liked cyberpsychosis. It didn't really fit with the genre to my mind - and seemed quasi-mystic. (Essence fit better with Shadowrun because of the explicit magic.)
It seemed to me that in cyberpunk, money was the real power, and that could be the main limit on cyberware. A billionaire could have all the cyberware they wanted.
Its the disconnect from sensory input that is the probable contributing factor rather than the metaphysical. The lack, or change, or even just dulling of sensory input is going to wear on some people.
Theres also a certain few with a build in fear of prosthetics and/or amputees. Apparently the amputee fear goes wayyyyyy the heck back. Usually at the sight of. But imagine someone with that sort of phobia lurking in the back of the brain when they get a cyber arm. Or like how some people freak out when having just makeup prosthetics applied.
Quote from: Catelf;1092864Reading all the other comments thus far makes me think of Major Motoko from Ghost in the shell.
I mean, she's fully loaded, but also don't seem to have lost THAT MUCH empathy....
On the other hand, she is also a deliberate powerhouse that really isn't fit as a regular player character.
Actually in the comics and the animated movie she was pretty disconnected. This is part of why the AI takes interest in her. But shes also pretty stable because she has top end gear. In the manga it is shown that lower grade cybernetics increases the chances of a disconnect. But overall the cyberware in the series is apparently more tactile than what you see in other works. One could say Ghost in the Shell is a good example of taking the punk out of cyberpunk.
On the flip side you have Appelseed and Dominion. Where theres multiple levels of cyberware and most certainly some cases of disconnects.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1092899Yes, transhumanism has long been known to be Gnosticism dressed up for the 21st century. :)
Exactly my take. Good to know that I'm not too far out there. :)
Quote from: jeff37923;1092882Cloning a dead singer to be a programmible RealDoll made of flesh was weird enough. Doing that with an entire boy band starts getting into Lovecraftian horror. ;)
Speaking of. In the original Ghost in the Shell manga Makoto ends up installed in a new body formerly used by a ganger after the battle with the spider tank. The body happens to be a Micheal Jackson recreation. Her friend did not know it was a guy. ahem.
Quote from: Altheus;1092887I think part of cyber-psychosis is also other peoples' reactions to your cybered state, for example you get implanted eyeshields, mirrored - because we're talking about cyberpunk. Suddenly people can't see what your eyes are doing, don't get the full spectrum of social feedback from you and become a bit more wary around you. You notice this and become a little bit paranoid because you're still the same person you always were but people are less comfortable around you. People talking to you may be more guarded because you might be recording everything they say and do for use later on, this will also have its effect.
Makes me think the rules should scale based on how obvious the 'ware is.
Yeah for sure. I think the system could use a refresh on the values. The mechanic is fine, but as you pointed out, there are some things that would have higher value than others based upon what we know about human interaction. Limbs would probably be lower in cost. Gross changes might be higher - the optical faceplate is already pretty high, but yeah, maybe it raises your Cool checks to offset the high Humanity cost.
Quote from: Omega;1092905Actually in the comics and the animated movie she was pretty disconnected. This is part of why the AI takes interest in her. But shes also pretty stable because she has top end gear. In the manga it is shown that lower grade cybernetics increases the chances of a disconnect. But overall the cyberware in the series is apparently more tactile than what you see in other works. One could say Ghost in the Shell is a good example of taking the punk out of cyberpunk.
On the flip side you have Appelseed and Dominion. Where theres multiple levels of cyberware and most certainly some cases of disconnects.
That's one of the tragic elements of Briaeros in Appleseed. He was a killing machine that couldn't be the human (well getting one's self blown to pieces and losing 75% of your body will do that).
Quote from: tenbones;1092921maybe it raises your Cool checks to offset the high Humanity cost.
I like this idea. Bonus to intimidate or charm/impress. I'd keep it as a seperate modifier so it can be tracked against how the subject feels about extensive cyberwear.
Yeah there's a lot we can do to update the system. I'm holding off until I see how CPRed drops. I have *ideas* of things I want to see. And things I'm planning on pitching. But I wanna see where they're going to baseline things.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1092926I like this idea. Bonus to intimidate or charm/impress. I'd keep it as a seperate modifier so it can be tracked against how the subject feels about extensive cyberwear.
Bonus to intimidate, impress minus to charm, convince, and you could drop cyberpsychosis.
But like someone already said, it does make sense to have some mental impact to replacing your body parts with chrome. Maybe like someone (else?) said have it tied to how good the cybernetics mimic your original parts and how much of a sensory feedback you get.
But then you have to take into account that improving your vision/hearing/olfactory might also be a feedback overload (how does Superman ever sleep if he can hear every cry for help?) Now you could be an asshole and don't care for others (99.99% of the people in a cyberpunk dystopia) but still being able to hear, smell much better should have an impact in your resting.
Or you can turn it on/off at will.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092941Bonus to intimidate, impress minus to charm, convince, and you could drop cyberpsychosis.
I'm thinking the intimidate could come from a place where people are afraid the character is close to becoming a cyberpsycho. And charm/impress would come from a place where the subject thinks cybernetics are "cool" and "hip". An anti-cyber gang would take the mod as a penalty/add to difficulty to influence.
I'd still want to keep cyberpsychosis.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1092943I'm thinking the intimidate could come from a place where people are afraid the character is close to becoming a cyberpsycho. And charm/impress would come from a place where the subject thinks cybernetics are "cool" and "hip". An anti-cyber gang would take the mod as a penalty/add to difficulty to influence.
I'd still want to keep cyberpsychosis.
So a reaction table that takes into account how cyber friendly the NPC are?
Not bad, same bonus/penalty depending on the NPC's rating in cyber-friendly,
[table=width: 500, class: grid]
[tr]
[td]CyberFriendly Rating [/td] [td] Bonus/Penalty[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]blah[/td] [td]blah[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
Something like that?
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092949So a reaction table that takes into account how cyber friendly the NPC are?
Not bad, same bonus/penalty depending on the NPC's rating in cyber-friendly,
CyberFriendly Rating Bonus/Penalty
blah blah
Something like that?
Yeah. I'd hate to make it too complex, but mods for how fashionable the cyberware is would be appropriate as well. A Solo would want tacticool cyberwear, and a Rocker would want the latest chrome and neon piping. Maybe roll that stuff into the existing fashion sense skill.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1092951Yeah. I'd hate to make it too complex, but mods for how fashionable the cyberware is would be appropriate as well. A Solo would want tacticool cyberwear, and a Rocker would want the latest chrome and neon piping. Maybe roll that stuff into the existing fashion sense skill.
Cosmetic chrome gives you more of a bonus to charm and less to intimidate, while tactical chrome does the opposite.
I'm not sure it needs to be that complex. The implicit use of the associated skills are pretty straightforward.
COOL/WILL
Interrogation
Intimidate
Oratory
Resist Torture/Drugs
Streetwise
EMPATHY
Human Perception
Interview
Leadership
Seduction
Social
Persuasion & Fast Talk
Perform
So the mere act of using those skills should tell you under what circumstances such bonuses/penalties are applicable. Of course we could totally have the debate on what skills belong to what stat. But that's a different issue. You can apply those bonuses to specific skills, or stat, or skills between either stats. etc. It can be handled at the item level or broadly.
The problem that I can see with this bonus modification is that in play. I'd notice that the more borged out PCs would have Players use it like, "Intimidate is my Persuasion & Fast Talk!", so the nature of the role-played character interaction is very different (which leads to unintended consequences). Use of the bonus mods just exacerbates the situation.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1092889After all; what's to prevent a player from saying that they totally had an accident before the campaign began.
The GM saying "No."
QuoteOr even doing stupid risky things to try to get damaged.
The GM saying, "Stop that." This is just one step removed from players who in a roll 3D6 and keep system like OD&D insist on having their character commit suicide because there stats weren't above average and then want the dead character to will their G.P.s to their next character.
Alternatively rigidly enforcing the costs of upgrade, risks of being damaged (death, brain damage, neurological damage, phobia), and including the risk that some corporation or illegal body mod doc includes some back door malware into your upgrade can make "I let the bad guys shoot me in the arm" be NOT a good tactic.
Quote from: jeff37923;1092965The problem that I can see with this bonus modification is that in play. I'd notice that the more borged out PCs would have Players use it like, "Intimidate is my Persuasion & Fast Talk!", so the nature of the role-played character interaction is very different (which leads to unintended consequences). Use of the bonus mods just exacerbates the situation.
That's why cosmetic cybers give you one bonus and one penalty while tactical ones give you the opposite, So the more borged out PC's are more likely to have the NPCs run from them. I need a reaction table to fully flesh it out but I'm not about to make it since I do intend to keep using cyberpsychosis.
Think of it as a prejudice.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092969That's why cosmetic cybers give you one bonus and one penalty while tactical ones give you the opposite, So the more borged out PC's are more likely to have the NPCs run from them. I need a reaction table to fully flesh it out but I'm not about to make it since I do intend to keep using cyberpsychosis.
Think of it as a prejudice.
Except that it is based on fashion, and fashions change so rapidly that unless a character spends most of their adventuring actually following fashion, what was "in" will rapidly become what is "out" and that is not even considering regional or subcultural variances.
I'm not saying don't use it. I'm saying that I wouldn't use it.
Quote from: jeff37923;1092981Except that it is based on fashion, and fashions change so rapidly that unless a character spends most of their adventuring actually following fashion, what was "in" will rapidly become what is "out" and that is not even considering regional or subcultural variances.
I'm not saying don't use it. I'm saying that I wouldn't use it.
Good point.
Quote from: jeff37923;1092965The problem that I can see with this bonus modification is that in play. I'd notice that the more borged out PCs would have Players use it like, "Intimidate is my Persuasion & Fast Talk!", so the nature of the role-played character interaction is very different (which leads to unintended consequences). Use of the bonus mods just exacerbates the situation.
I actually deal with this quite a bit in other games.
Here's the way I handle it: I let them do it.
Ironically it's players that believe that Intimidation is the same thing as Persuasion and Fast-Talking, that usually die from misusing Intimidate in my game. They're not the same. Intimidation pumps fear. It creates incredible levels of distrust. And while it might work in the short-term - and it should, if you're good at it. In the end - it isolates the character. When the *real* shit goes down, who is going to stand with them? The nearest guy within reach? Don't get me wrong, I think Intimidation is a perfectly fine and useful skill. If used well it *can* reasonably get a lot of things done. But it's our jobs as GM's to make sure that we react accordingly with the world around them.
Persuasion and Fast-talking is a means to make the person you're using it against feel "okay" with the exchange. I *want* my borged up asshole players Intimidating people. Because when that's done... the word will get around, especially if it's because they're loaded down with cyberware. When the word gets around, that reputation will affect the outcomes of other exchanges. It might attract the attention of C-SWAT. The extra friction generated by the overuse of Intimidate might harm the PC and rest of the crew in the long run.
Go watch Goodfellas. The scene where Morrie is supposed to pay up to Jimmy is literally Intimidation (Jimmy) and Persuasion (Henry) going at the same time. Ray Liotta's character is almost always all about Persuasion/Fast-Talk. https://youtu.be/JKDgjLf_rk4
I can't find a clip about it but later at the end of it - Henry persuades Morrie to stop busting Jimmy's balls about the money Jimmy now owes Morrie. https://youtu.be/tOWaHTlq-hI
The very demeanor of De Niro is the guy you're describing. Not an ounce of Persuasion. *Everything* is a degree of Intimidation. So let your players indulge. The big difference is if they're leveraging cyberware for the bonuses it might give them - then treat them like the fucking monsters they are.
Heh it also is kind of funny that people that try to pull that line "Intimidate is my Persuasion/Fast-Talk" tend to either 1) Not really believe it but say it in half-jest 2) are actually low-empathy people that will only understand the issue once someone puts a bullet in their character's head.
TL/DR - Let them indulge in being bullies. They don't last long in CP2020 if they abuse it.
Quote from: jeff37923;1092981Except that it is based on fashion, and fashions change so rapidly that unless a character spends most of their adventuring actually following fashion, what was "in" will rapidly become what is "out" and that is not even considering regional or subcultural variances.
I'm not saying don't use it. I'm saying that I wouldn't use it.
But just the same - if the meaning of such appearances loses its meaning - so too should the bonuses be lost. Right? Just keep it contextual. Because the point being is that cybering up *most* of the time, especially for appearances sake, is the whole point of "othering" yourself from the norm.
Who are you more visually scared of? a regular office-guy? or some dude with a face-full or piercings, tatts, and split tongue, with spacers in his ears wide enough to throw a donut through?
Resisting Intimidate is a Cool-check too. So "confident" characters SHOULD have a high Cool stat.
Quote from: tenbones;1092986I actually deal with this quite a bit in other games.
Here's the way I handle it: I let them do it.
Ironically it's players that believe that Intimidation is the same thing as Persuasion and Fast-Talking, that usually die from misusing Intimidate in my game. They're not the same. Intimidation pumps fear. It creates incredible levels of distrust. And while it might work in the short-term - and it should, if you're good at it. In the end - it isolates the character. When the *real* shit goes down, who is going to stand with them? The nearest guy within reach? Don't get me wrong, I think Intimidation is a perfectly fine and useful skill. If used well it *can* reasonably get a lot of things done. But it's our jobs as GM's to make sure that we react accordingly with the world around them.
Persuasion and Fast-talking is a means to make the person you're using it against feel "okay" with the exchange. I *want* my borged up asshole players Intimidating people. Because when that's done... the word will get around, especially if it's because they're loaded down with cyberware. When the word gets around, that reputation will affect the outcomes of other exchanges. It might attract the attention of C-SWAT. The extra friction generated by the overuse of Intimidate might harm the PC and rest of the crew in the long run.
I really dont see the point in turning a Players success into a negative. There is no reason why a successful Intimidate check has to have any more negative effects then a successful Fast Talking check. If a NPC is going to get a negative reaction to being bullied then they are just as likely to get one from being lied to
I can see a few negatives in a borged out PC running around intimidating people. It would be like putting up a neon sign for E-Swat to come give them a stern "lecture" on etiquette.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1093007I can see a few negatives in a borged out PC running around intimidating people. It would be like putting up a neon sign for E-Swat to come give them a stern "lecture" on etiquette.
What is the difference between a borged out PC intimidating people and a punk PC intimidating people and a cartel PC intimidating people and a skin head PC intimidating people?
Quote from: Shasarak;1093013What is the difference between a borged out PC intimidating people and a punk PC intimidating people and a cartel PC intimidating people and a skin head PC intimidating people?
The caliber, figuratively and literally, of the necessary response. Full borgs call for bigger guns.
Quote from: tenbones;1092987But just the same - if the meaning of such appearances loses its meaning - so too should the bonuses be lost. Right? Just keep it contextual. Because the point being is that cybering up *most* of the time, especially for appearances sake, is the whole point of "othering" yourself from the norm.
Who are you more visually scared of? a regular office-guy? or some dude with a face-full or piercings, tatts, and split tongue, with spacers in his ears wide enough to throw a donut through?
Resisting Intimidate is a Cool-check too. So "confident" characters SHOULD have a high Cool stat.
OK, I'll buy that approach. However, when the fashion is cyberwear ("Metal is better than meat."), how do you handle the humanity loss when the character removes their old unfashionable limb and replaces it with a newer
tres chic cybernetic piece? Just go for a half cost? Even if you do that, you are still on the road to cyberpsychosis by way of chasing fashion.
Quote from: Shasarak;1093013What is the difference between a borged out PC intimidating people and a punk PC intimidating people and a cartel PC intimidating people and a skin head PC intimidating people?
The nature of the intimidating threat dictates the response to it. Full borgs require a power armor or rocket launcher response.
Quote from: Shasarak;1092998I really dont see the point in turning a Players success into a negative. There is no reason why a successful Intimidate check has to have any more negative effects then a successful Fast Talking check. If a NPC is going to get a negative reaction to being bullied then they are just as likely to get one from being lied to
No. I'm saying the world reacts to what you do. Intimidation as a skill check is the subtle-or-overt threat of force. The point is that if you use Intimidation as a normal means of getting what you want - the world will react accordingly.
Persuasion/Fast Talk isn't *necessarily* lying. It means you're convincing someone something that you intend for them to think - *regardless* of whether they believe you or not. At the moment it sounds "right". If you're successful they either 1) agreed 2) didn't realize what your'e suggesting sounded actually reasonable. If they fail - they can take it however contextually they need to.
Intimidate has no such nuance. Successful or not, you know you're being intimidated and coerced by force. So either it works because you know you're going to get your ass kicked (or worse) or you're a pussy and feel like playing a doormat.
Any player that goes around using Intimidate all the time is *likely* to not win over a lot of allies. Quite the opposite. Depends on context. Persuasion is less likely overall to engender that feeling. It's not a case about turning a player's success into a negative. It's about reacting appropriately to behaviors. Just because someone is successful at Intimidating by cheerfully threatening the life of another NPC/PC and gets a success doesn't mean everyone should magically be "happy" about what happened. In my experience people are petty and vindictive. But hey - a lot of people are doormats too. Depends on context.
In my games I play NPC's that are competent with competence. /shrug Talk shit to the wrong person, and that could mean your ass. Maybe.
Quote from: jeff37923;1093022OK, I'll buy that approach. However, when the fashion is cyberwear ("Metal is better than meat."), how do you handle the humanity loss when the character removes their old unfashionable limb and replaces it with a newer tres chic cybernetic piece? Just go for a half cost? Even if you do that, you are still on the road to cyberpsychosis by way of chasing fashion.
I'm pretty sure if you're just doing an upgrade, there were some supplementary rules for it. Like it costs you the absolute minimum in Humanity cost if you already have one, at least for the basic chassis. For the same reason that if you remove your cyberware you don't magically get your Humanity back. You need to go to therapy and get braindanced to get that humanity back.
Mind you - going cyberpsycho isn't easy. Most characters will have to work at getting enough money to pay for those procedures... and they'll know long before they get there with that dropping Empathy score before they go over the edge.
Quote from: Shasarak;1093013What is the difference between a borged out PC intimidating people and a punk PC intimidating people and a cartel PC intimidating people and a skin head PC intimidating people?
The difference is 1)Context of the situation. 2) what can I get away with. 3) What have I got to lose by giving in?
Which, ironically, is the same no matter what game you play, or real life.
Quote from: tenbones;1093026No. I'm saying the world reacts to what you do. Intimidation as a skill check is the subtle-or-overt threat of force. The point is that if you use Intimidation as a normal means of getting what you want - the world will react accordingly.
Persuasion/Fast Talk isn't *necessarily* lying. It means you're convincing someone something that you intend for them to think - *regardless* of whether they believe you or not. At the moment it sounds "right". If you're successful they either 1) agreed 2) didn't realize what your'e suggesting sounded actually reasonable. If they fail - they can take it however contextually they need to.
Intimidate has no such nuance. Successful or not, you know you're being intimidated and coerced by force. So either it works because you know you're going to get your ass kicked (or worse) or you're a pussy and feel like playing a doormat.
Any player that goes around using Intimidate all the time is *likely* to not win over a lot of allies. Quite the opposite. Depends on context. Persuasion is less likely overall to engender that feeling. It's not a case about turning a player's success into a negative. It's about reacting appropriately to behaviors. Just because someone is successful at Intimidating by cheerfully threatening the life of another NPC/PC and gets a success doesn't mean everyone should magically be "happy" about what happened. In my experience people are petty and vindictive. But hey - a lot of people are doormats too. Depends on context.
In my games I play NPC's that are competent with competence. /shrug Talk shit to the wrong person, and that could mean your ass. Maybe.
I disagree that there is no nuance in Intimidation. Type A personalities do it all the time probably with out even realising that other people find them to be intimidating. Likewise it does not seem to affect their allies, a lot of people would probably prefer to support someone with a strong personality and clear goals rather then an otherwise unoffensive person that wont commit one way or another.
I dont mind if a PC gets into trouble by failing an Intimidate check but if they succeed then that competent NPC turns out not to be as tough as they imagined that they were or maybe the NPC actually likes other straight talking hard-asses or any other reason that does not screw over the player for using their character resources.
Quote from: tenbones;1092921Yeah for sure. I think the system could use a refresh on the values. The mechanic is fine, but as you pointed out, there are some things that would have higher value than others based upon what we know about human interaction. Limbs would probably be lower in cost. Gross changes might be higher - the optical faceplate is already pretty high, but yeah, maybe it raises your Cool checks to offset the high Humanity cost.
I like that bit about gross changes. I think I'll add that:
Replacing a limb due to an accident = little or no empathy loss
Replacing a limb intentionally = empathy loss
Replacing a limb with one salvaged from an enemy ("ripping") = big empathy loss
Something obviously non-human, like an extra pair of eyes or mecha-dendrites (i.e. "doc ock") = larger empathy loss
Quote from: jeff37923;1092880This was years before I ever read any C.J. Cherryh, and I wish I would have read Cyteen while I was still running Cyberpunk for ideas.
I started Cyteen long ago and got sidetracked. Struck me as more Traveller than Cyberpunk. Is it worth revisiting?
Quote from: RandyB;1092891This is one distinction between cyberpunk and transhumanism - in the latter, the baseline assumption is that "mind is self" and "body is interchangeable/irrelevant/disposable".
Good observation. You're on to something there.
TH: mind is self, body is disposable
CP: self = mind and body, mind and body are linked
I'm also wondering if there's a difference between empathy and humanity.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092847TBH Mirrorshades has one:
3d6 CYBERPSYCHOSIS
3 Hatred against humanity. Make WIS or INT checks to see if character acts on it.
4-5 Spaced out. Total fascination with abstracts. Loss of human feeling. Make WIS or INT check to snap out of it.
6-7 Paranoia.
8-9 Rejection of biological life in favor of cyberware. Will attempt to replace all human parts with cyberware.
10-11 Rejection of cyberware in favor of humanity. Will attempt to remove all cyberware in favor of organic material.
12-13 Delusions of invincibility.
14-15 Character lives in a fantasy world and acts accordingly.
16-17 Character has lost all sense of meaning in his life. It's possible he goes looking for a cult or a religion that helps him cope.
18 Character develops one or more phobias (fear of heights, narrow rooms, crowds, etc.). If something triggers the phobia, make WIS or INT check to resist acting on it.
It's too simplistic for my tastes. I like the idea of rolling on a random table, but I'm actually thinking three tables:
Tier 1 is quirks. Mild personality and behavioral abnormalities. People think of you as "Yeah, that's Mike, he's weird that way." But they will still hang out with you. Stuff like "Don't mess with my hair!" or "I kiss my gun after I shoot people." Gurps quirks, if you play Gurps, but nothing silly.
Tier 2 are psychological problems. 75% of the stuff you find in a Gurps or WOD list: Obsessions, phobias, compulsions, anti-social personality traits, etc. People think of you as "Look out for Mike, especially if
."
Tier 3 are the real psychoses. Total separation from reality or complete antisocial deviations. Hannibal Lector, the Joker, fishmalks. People don't want to be around you.
Quote from: Shasarak;1093013What is the difference between a borged out PC intimidating people and a punk PC intimidating people and a cartel PC intimidating people and a skin head PC intimidating people?
The borged out one may be able to throw cars at people or has built in weaponry. And it might be easy to misinterpret intimidation as someone about to flip out.
One problem I see with all this intimidating is that it runs counter to a loss of humanity. To successfully intimidate someone you need a certain level of empathy to be able to read their reactions and pick out who is a good subject to spook. Thats going to be really hard when you can barely remember what emotions or the ability to feel are anymore.
Id say though actually scaring people might be alot easier. But browbeating and intimidating someone should be increasingly beyond the heavy cybers grasp depending on how heavy the conversion is.
Similar subject came up long long ago with Rifts.
Quote from: Omega;1093046The borged out one may be able to throw cars at people or has built in weaponry. And it might be easy to misinterpret intimidation as someone about to flip out.
One problem I see with all this intimidating is that it runs counter to a loss of humanity. To successfully intimidate someone you need a certain level of empathy to be able to read their reactions and pick out who is a good subject to spook. Thats going to be really hard when you can barely remember what emotions or the ability to feel are anymore.
Id say though actually scaring people might be alot easier. But browbeating and intimidating someone should be increasingly beyond the heavy cybers grasp depending on how heavy the conversion is.
Similar subject came up long long ago with Rifts.
Its funny, I get the feeling that we are thinking of completely different types of creatures. Because I dont know why getting bionic arms and a cyber eye is going to stop a character from being able to get a read on someone in any way other then for purely mechanics based purposes.
Even current day prosthetic technology, not to mention just wearing clothes, a trenchcoat and sunglasses, is going to disguise most cybering that is not the 80's Robo Cop/Cybermen pneumatic clunk-clunk type.
Quote from: Aglondir;1093043Good observation. You're on to something there.
TH: mind is self, body is disposable
CP: self = mind and body, mind and body are linked
I'm also wondering if there's a difference between empathy and humanity.
I agree with linking the two. It's hard to imagine high Empathy and low Humanity, or vice versa, outside of intentionally-bred animals (e. g. dogs)
Quote from: Aglondir;1093042I started Cyteen long ago and got sidetracked. Struck me as more Traveller than Cyberpunk. Is it worth revisiting?
I have enjoyed
Cyteen and its sequel,
Regenesis. The stories set in her future history of
Downbelow Station and
Chanur are very good as far I'm concerned. They are indeed more
Traveller than
Cyberpunk, but the idea of deliberately bred disposable people seems right up Cyberpunk's dystopian alley.
EDIT: It should be mentioned that while we are talking about games which can be differentiated, in terms of scenarios for gameplay you could easily run
Cyberpunk adventures with current
Traveller or
Cepheus Engine because the "new" genre of Cyberpunk in the late 80's/early 90's has since been absorbed into general science fiction and current SFRPGs reflect this.
Quote from: Shasarak;1093032I disagree that there is no nuance in Intimidation. Type A personalities do it all the time probably with out even realising that other people find them to be intimidating.
You just described a low-Empathy person. It requires *zero* self-awareness of ones lack of empathy to be Intimdating. The degree to which one is aware of being intimidating IS the Empathy/Humanity dynamic in action. Because Intimidation is not based on Empathy. But lack of Empathy is exactly where the inability to know that your behavior might be in fact Intimdating comes into play. It further bolsters my point by the fact those people might not really care at all.
Quote from: Shasarak;1093032Likewise it does not seem to affect their allies, a lot of people would probably prefer to support someone with a strong personality and clear goals rather then an otherwise unoffensive person that wont commit one way or another.
Which is why I say - it matters contextually. If we work for a bakery and one of our coworkers is trying to sell cookies by Intimidating people into buying them, vs. Persuading people... you might get short term results. But how we take it as his co-workers can run the gamut. I'll tell you this. I'm willing to bet when the inevitable "talk" happens with our boss, the lack of support he's likely to receive will be deafening silence. Of course I'm speaking generally.
If we're gangbangers and one of our esteemed collegues likes to throw his weight around - we'd probably put on the show of liking it. As long as he's on our side. The moment he's not... problems ensue. That's the way of the world.
Quote from: Shasarak;1093032I dont mind if a PC gets into trouble by failing an Intimidate check but if they succeed then that competent NPC turns out not to be as tough as they imagined that they were or maybe the NPC actually likes other straight talking hard-asses or any other reason that does not screw over the player for using their character resources.
I'm not even saying the PC *should* get into trouble. It's grains of sand. If you use Intimidate in lieu of Persuasion *everytime* (which is why we're even having this discussion). It *will* become an issue somewhere down the line in-game. Of course not every NPC is a hard-ass. But at some point you will run into an NPC that isn't even a hardass, but he doesn't take kindly to being threatened. Or a PC. Or the fact that the PC in question is doing it so much it becomes bad for business. The issue is contextual. Intimidate is the sledgehammer of social skills. That's all I'm saying, really.
And any game where someone uses it too liberally - you're LITERALLY asking for an asswhooping to be handed out. That's the whole point of intimidation. You're insinuating overtly or subtly that some kind of asswhooping is going to occur if someone(s) don't do as you say. And ultimately it's for the Player to make that call - by dint of the fact they get to *choose* the skill they're using.
Quote from: Shasarak;1093048Its funny, I get the feeling that we are thinking of completely different types of creatures. Because I dont know why getting bionic arms and a cyber eye is going to stop a character from being able to get a read on someone in any way other then for purely mechanics based purposes.
Even current day prosthetic technology, not to mention just wearing clothes, a trenchcoat and sunglasses, is going to disguise most cybering that is not the 80's Robo Cop/Cybermen pneumatic clunk-clunk type.
Because you're not thinking in terms of "why" people get a prosthesis now - usually due to accidents or being born with a disfigurment. Vs. Electively having your limbs amputated for the purposes of style.
Keep things in perspective. Cyberlimbs in CP2020 *are* relatively cheap on humanity. You can even get some back by having realistic skin put over them. The high-humanity cost items are the ones that clearly take you into non-human territory. Optical faceplates, Hydraulic rams on your limbs, pop-out weaponry, big mechanical implants, having your heart removed and decentralized. Most CP characters can handle the loss and still be perfectly playable.
But we're talking those PC's that wanna go full borg. When there is very little meat left. The *vast* majority of the population has minor implants at best. Really minor stuff. Being "human" is still a thing. This *isn't* transhumanism. Those folks are out there in the game - and they're akin to the those people that are *deeply* into body-modification right now, but it's far more dangerous because their interactions with the world, that fears and in many ways resents them builds on the growing disassociation that comes from not being very human anymore.
I mean, what do you think your life is going to be like when you're a 7-ft tall Omega-frame borg with 500lbs of hardware backed onto you, optical faceplate with 10-cyberoptics, you shit a chunky puddle of motor-oil and nuts and bolts once a month and drink transmission fluid and protein-toothpaste shakes for meals. You're going to get along with your corp-sec parents you rebelled against as a teenager and have a nice sit-down thanksgiving and pretend nothing is wrong? LOL. We're talking about *those* players.
Quote from: tenbones;1093096You just described a low-Empathy person. It requires *zero* self-awareness of ones lack of empathy to be Intimdating. The degree to which one is aware of being intimidating IS the Empathy/Humanity dynamic in action. Because Intimidation is not based on Empathy. But lack of Empathy is exactly where the inability to know that your behavior might be in fact Intimdating comes into play. It further bolsters my point by the fact those people might not really care at all.
My point is that you dont need to be threatening to kill someone to be intimidating. That there are nuances in Intimidation that can range from vocal tone and volume all the way up to knife to the throat.
As for empathy, again I disagree that a Type A personality is not or can not be empathetic just that their empathy is different then other personality types
QuoteWhich is why I say - it matters contextually. If we work for a bakery and one of our coworkers is trying to sell cookies by Intimidating people into buying them, vs. Persuading people... you might get short term results. But how we take it as his co-workers can run the gamut. I'll tell you this. I'm willing to bet when the inevitable "talk" happens with our boss, the lack of support he's likely to receive will be deafening silence. Of course I'm speaking generally.
If we're gangbangers and one of our esteemed collegues likes to throw his weight around - we'd probably put on the show of liking it. As long as he's on our side. The moment he's not... problems ensue. That's the way of the world.
Yes and when you are playing Cyberpunk the chances of your character having to go around selling cookies is what? Between slim and none.
I mean when you look at the sorts of NPCs that a character has to deal with in your normal type of game little old ladies buying girl scout cookies do not rank highly in terms of importance. Where as having a PC that can throw their weight around and get results when the shit gets real is a much more reliable personality to have on the team.
QuoteI'm not even saying the PC *should* get into trouble. It's grains of sand. If you use Intimidate in lieu of Persuasion *everytime* (which is why we're even having this discussion). It *will* become an issue somewhere down the line in-game. Of course not every NPC is a hard-ass. But at some point you will run into an NPC that isn't even a hardass, but he doesn't take kindly to being threatened. Or a PC. Or the fact that the PC in question is doing it so much it becomes bad for business. The issue is contextual. Intimidate is the sledgehammer of social skills. That's all I'm saying, really.
Yes there will be times where Intimidation will not work just like the times that Diplomacy will not work. I am sure that everyone has been in that game where someone decides to insult the King and still to this day can not work out why they got chucked in prison. But that is why you have the Face character for those type of situations.
QuoteAnd any game where someone uses it too liberally - you're LITERALLY asking for an asswhooping to be handed out. That's the whole point of intimidation. You're insinuating overtly or subtly that some kind of asswhooping is going to occur if someone(s) don't do as you say. And ultimately it's for the Player to make that call - by dint of the fact they get to *choose* the skill they're using.
I dont play Cyberpunk for there not to be an asswhooping. Why else would you get all of that cyber gear anyway? So either way you get what you want.
This thread is gold. Thank you everyone!