Quote from: Shasarak;1093013What is the difference between a borged out PC intimidating people and a punk PC intimidating people and a cartel PC intimidating people and a skin head PC intimidating people?

The caliber, figuratively and literally, of the necessary response. Full borgs call for bigger guns.

Quote from: tenbones;1092987But just the same - if the meaning of such appearances loses its meaning - so too should the bonuses be lost. Right? Just keep it contextual. Because the point being is that cybering up *most* of the time, especially for appearances sake, is the whole point of "othering" yourself from the norm.

Who are you more visually scared of? a regular office-guy? or some dude with a face-full or piercings, tatts, and split tongue, with spacers in his ears wide enough to throw a donut through?

Resisting Intimidate is a Cool-check too. So "confident" characters SHOULD have a high Cool stat.

OK, I'll buy that approach. However, when the fashion is cyberwear ("Metal is better than meat."), how do you handle the humanity loss when the character removes their old unfashionable limb and replaces it with a newer tres chic cybernetic piece? Just go for a half cost? Even if you do that, you are still on the road to cyberpsychosis by way of chasing fashion.

Quote from: Shasarak;1093013What is the difference between a borged out PC intimidating people and a punk PC intimidating people and a cartel PC intimidating people and a skin head PC intimidating people?

The nature of the intimidating threat dictates the response to it. Full borgs require a power armor or rocket launcher response.

Quote from: Shasarak;1092998I really dont see the point in turning a Players success into a negative.  There is no reason why a successful Intimidate check has to have any more negative effects then a successful Fast Talking check.  If a NPC is going to get a negative reaction to being bullied then they are just as likely to get one from being lied to

No. I'm saying the world reacts to what you do. Intimidation as a skill check is the subtle-or-overt threat of force. The point is that if you use Intimidation as a normal means of getting what you want - the world will react accordingly.

Persuasion/Fast Talk isn't *necessarily* lying. It means you're convincing someone something that you intend for them to think - *regardless* of whether they believe you or not. At the moment it sounds "right". If you're successful they either 1) agreed 2) didn't realize what your'e suggesting sounded actually reasonable. If they fail - they can take it however contextually they need to.

Intimidate has no such nuance. Successful or not, you know you're being intimidated and coerced by force. So either it works because you know you're going to get your ass kicked (or worse) or you're a pussy and feel like playing a doormat.

Any player that goes around using Intimidate all the time is *likely* to not win over a lot of allies. Quite the opposite. Depends on context. Persuasion is less likely overall to engender that feeling. It's not a case about turning a player's success into a negative. It's about reacting appropriately to behaviors. Just because someone is successful at Intimidating by cheerfully threatening the life of another NPC/PC and gets a success doesn't mean everyone should magically be "happy" about what happened. In my experience people are petty and vindictive. But hey - a lot of people are doormats too. Depends on context.

In my games I play NPC's that are competent with competence. /shrug Talk shit to the wrong person, and that could mean your ass. Maybe.

Quote from: jeff37923;1093022OK, I'll buy that approach. However, when the fashion is cyberwear ("Metal is better than meat."), how do you handle the humanity loss when the character removes their old unfashionable limb and replaces it with a newer tres chic cybernetic piece? Just go for a half cost? Even if you do that, you are still on the road to cyberpsychosis by way of chasing fashion.

I'm pretty sure if you're just doing an upgrade, there were some supplementary rules for it. Like it costs you the absolute minimum in Humanity cost if you already have one, at least for the basic chassis. For the same reason that if you remove your cyberware you don't magically get your Humanity back. You need to go to therapy and get braindanced to get that humanity back.

Mind you - going cyberpsycho isn't easy. Most characters will have to work at getting enough money to pay for those procedures... and they'll know long before they get there with that dropping Empathy score before they go over the edge.

Quote from: Shasarak;1093013What is the difference between a borged out PC intimidating people and a punk PC intimidating people and a cartel PC intimidating people and a skin head PC intimidating people?

The difference is 1)Context of the situation. 2) what can I get away with. 3) What have I got to lose by giving in?

Which, ironically, is the same no matter what game you play, or real life.

Quote from: tenbones;1093026No. I'm saying the world reacts to what you do. Intimidation as a skill check is the subtle-or-overt threat of force. The point is that if you use Intimidation as a normal means of getting what you want - the world will react accordingly.

Persuasion/Fast Talk isn't *necessarily* lying. It means you're convincing someone something that you intend for them to think - *regardless* of whether they believe you or not. At the moment it sounds "right". If you're successful they either 1) agreed 2) didn't realize what your'e suggesting sounded actually reasonable. If they fail - they can take it however contextually they need to.

Intimidate has no such nuance. Successful or not, you know you're being intimidated and coerced by force. So either it works because you know you're going to get your ass kicked (or worse) or you're a pussy and feel like playing a doormat.

Any player that goes around using Intimidate all the time is *likely* to not win over a lot of allies. Quite the opposite. Depends on context. Persuasion is less likely overall to engender that feeling. It's not a case about turning a player's success into a negative. It's about reacting appropriately to behaviors. Just because someone is successful at Intimidating by cheerfully threatening the life of another NPC/PC and gets a success doesn't mean everyone should magically be "happy" about what happened. In my experience people are petty and vindictive. But hey - a lot of people are doormats too. Depends on context.

In my games I play NPC's that are competent with competence. /shrug Talk shit to the wrong person, and that could mean your ass. Maybe.

I disagree that there is no nuance in Intimidation.  Type A personalities do it all the time probably with out even realising that other people find them to be intimidating.  Likewise it does not seem to affect their allies, a lot of people would probably prefer to support someone with a strong personality and clear goals rather then an otherwise unoffensive person that wont commit one way or another.

I dont mind if a PC gets into trouble by failing an Intimidate check but if they succeed then that competent NPC turns out not to be as tough as they imagined that they were or maybe the NPC actually likes other straight talking hard-asses or any other reason that does not screw over the player for using their character resources.

Quote from: tenbones;1092921Yeah for sure. I think the system could use a refresh on the values. The mechanic is fine, but as you pointed out, there are some things that would have higher value than others based upon what we know about human interaction. Limbs would probably be lower in cost. Gross changes might be higher - the optical faceplate is already pretty high, but yeah, maybe it raises your Cool checks to offset the high Humanity cost.

I like that bit about gross changes. I think I'll add that:

Replacing a limb due to an accident = little or no empathy loss
Replacing a limb intentionally = empathy loss
Replacing a limb with one salvaged from an enemy ("ripping") = big empathy loss
Something obviously non-human, like an extra pair of eyes or mecha-dendrites (i.e. "doc ock") = larger empathy loss

Quote from: jeff37923;1092880This was years before I ever read any C.J. Cherryh, and I wish I would have read Cyteen while I was still running Cyberpunk for ideas.

I started Cyteen long ago and got sidetracked. Struck me as more Traveller than Cyberpunk. Is it worth revisiting?

Quote from: RandyB;1092891This is one distinction between cyberpunk and transhumanism - in the latter, the baseline assumption is that "mind is self" and "body is interchangeable/irrelevant/disposable".

Good observation. You're on to something there.

TH: mind is self, body is disposable
CP: self = mind and body, mind and body are linked

I'm also wondering if there's a difference between empathy and humanity.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092847TBH Mirrorshades has one:

3d6 CYBERPSYCHOSIS
3 Hatred against humanity. Make WIS or INT checks to see if character acts on it.
4-5 Spaced out. Total fascination with abstracts. Loss of human feeling. Make WIS or INT check to snap out of it.
6-7 Paranoia.
8-9 Rejection of biological life in favor of cyberware. Will attempt to replace all human parts with cyberware.
10-11 Rejection of cyberware in favor of humanity. Will attempt to remove all cyberware in favor of organic material.
12-13 Delusions of invincibility.
14-15 Character lives in a fantasy world and acts accordingly.
16-17 Character has lost all sense of meaning in his life. It's possible he goes looking for a cult or a religion that helps him cope.
18 Character develops one or more phobias (fear of heights, narrow rooms, crowds, etc.). If something triggers the phobia, make WIS or INT check to resist acting on it.

It's too simplistic for my tastes. I like the idea of rolling on a random table, but I'm actually thinking three tables:

Tier 1 is quirks. Mild personality and behavioral abnormalities. People think of you as "Yeah, that's Mike, he's weird that way." But they will still hang out with you. Stuff like "Don't mess with my hair!" or "I kiss my gun after I shoot people." Gurps quirks, if you play Gurps, but nothing silly.

Tier 2 are psychological problems. 75% of the stuff you find in a Gurps or WOD list: Obsessions, phobias, compulsions, anti-social personality traits, etc. People think of you as "Look out for Mike, especially if ."

Tier 3 are the real psychoses. Total separation from reality or complete antisocial deviations. Hannibal Lector, the Joker, fishmalks. People don't want to be around you.

Quote from: Shasarak;1093013What is the difference between a borged out PC intimidating people and a punk PC intimidating people and a cartel PC intimidating people and a skin head PC intimidating people?

The borged out one may be able to throw cars at people or has built in weaponry. And it might be easy to misinterpret intimidation as someone about to flip out.

One problem I see with all this intimidating is that it runs counter to a loss of humanity. To successfully intimidate someone you need a certain level of empathy to be able to read their reactions and pick out who is a good subject to spook. Thats going to be really hard when you can barely remember what emotions or the ability to feel are anymore.

Id say though actually scaring people might be alot easier. But browbeating and intimidating someone should be increasingly beyond the heavy cybers grasp depending on how heavy the conversion is.

Similar subject came up long long ago with Rifts.

Quote from: Omega;1093046The borged out one may be able to throw cars at people or has built in weaponry. And it might be easy to misinterpret intimidation as someone about to flip out.

One problem I see with all this intimidating is that it runs counter to a loss of humanity. To successfully intimidate someone you need a certain level of empathy to be able to read their reactions and pick out who is a good subject to spook. Thats going to be really hard when you can barely remember what emotions or the ability to feel are anymore.

Id say though actually scaring people might be alot easier. But browbeating and intimidating someone should be increasingly beyond the heavy cybers grasp depending on how heavy the conversion is.

Similar subject came up long long ago with Rifts.

Its funny, I get the feeling that we are thinking of completely different types of creatures.  Because I dont know why getting bionic arms and a cyber eye is going to stop a character from being able to get a read on someone in any way other then for purely mechanics based purposes.

Even current day prosthetic technology, not to mention just wearing clothes, a trenchcoat and sunglasses, is going to disguise most cybering that is not the 80's Robo Cop/Cybermen pneumatic clunk-clunk type.

Quote from: Aglondir;1093043Good observation. You're on to something there.

TH: mind is self, body is disposable
CP: self = mind and body, mind and body are linked

I'm also wondering if there's a difference between empathy and humanity.

I agree with linking the two. It's hard to imagine high Empathy and low Humanity, or vice versa, outside of intentionally-bred animals (e. g. dogs)

Quote from: Aglondir;1093042I started Cyteen long ago and got sidetracked. Struck me as more Traveller than Cyberpunk. Is it worth revisiting?

I have enjoyed Cyteen and its sequel, Regenesis. The stories set in her future history of Downbelow Station and Chanur are very good as far I'm concerned. They are indeed more Traveller than Cyberpunk, but the idea of deliberately bred disposable people seems right up Cyberpunk's dystopian alley.

EDIT: It should be mentioned that while we are talking about games which can be differentiated, in terms of scenarios for gameplay you could easily run Cyberpunk adventures with current Traveller or Cepheus Engine because the "new" genre of Cyberpunk in the late 80's/early 90's has since been absorbed into general science fiction and current SFRPGs reflect this.