Since we're discussing cyberpunk in various threads, its time to revisit a classic issue: loss of empathy (or humanity, or something else?) due to too much cybernetic augs. Mechanically, it was a way to limit or regulate cyberware getting out of control. Did it work?

Thematically it stands on its own merits. Or not?  Many people did not like it then, and still don't.

I'm brainstorming an idea where replacing a body part that's been accidentally severed or destroyed won't reduce your empathy, but voluntarily doing so will. Grafting on cyberware from a defeated foe, even more so.

What say you?

In Cyberpunk 2020, its both strongly thematic and a strong balancing mechanism. Otherwise, you wind up with Borgs from Rifts where there's no reason to not be a meat brain inside a metal tank. I remember playing a Partial Borg in Rifts and the other players hated that I didn't go for the full conversion, but my whole concept was an escaped slave-borg who had been chopped and chipped against her will.

In CP2020, once you start trading meat for power, you head down the slippery slope to going bonkers. You can stop at any time, but its easy to want that new matching limb.

If you're replacing lost parts, why not go for meat instead? It gives you a limb back, without any cost. I haven't read CP2020 in a decade, but I remember that being an option.

Quote from: Aglondir;1092816I'm brainstorming an idea where replacing a body part that's been accidentally severed or destroyed won't reduce your empathy, but voluntarily doing so will. Grafting on cyberware from a defeated foe, even more so.

What say you?

I follow and agree with the argument that replacing a lost limb is qualitatively different from having someone saw off a perfectly functional appendage and that doing the latter would have more negative consequences than doing the former.

To me it would make more sense to make the cost of replacing a lost limb greater than zero, but significantly less than sawing off a good limb. One option would be to make replacement 1/2 cost (or 1/4 or some fraction that makes sense) of voluntary removal. Another option would be to base the loss of humanity on failing some sort of saving throw. Voluntary removal could be automatic loss or just have a significantly higher probability of losing humanity than replacement. That way replacement might or might not cost humanity. If the saving throw was based on a mechanic akin to Sanity in Call of Cthulhu or Passions in Pendragon that would be even better.

It fits really well depending on the setting and more importantly the premise and sophistication, or lack thereof, of the tech.

How much tactile feedback vs sensory deprivation is there with the cybernetics? How well can you feel with that cyberarm? Full, a little, none?

Why is this important? Because the less feedback you get from the cybernetics the potentially higher the disconnect as it were.

Or if you want a current day example. Any standard VR headset on the market, or even just a really good red-blue 3D video. There is little tactile feedback VR and none with 3d.
Now imagine experiencing that 24/7.

Then add on any brain replacement cybernetics and depending on how intigrated or not that stuff is. You can very easily start losing what makes you human. Possibly to the point that all thats left is mostly subroutines being overseen by whatever few remaining grey cells are left in the armature.

And this really becomes important if there is any sort of metaphysical element as well in the setting. Does the cyberware mesh well with psi? Or are they some degree of incompatibility?

Rifts is overall a cyber-friendly setting. CP2020 and Shadowrun are very not cyber-friendly. And Nights Edge is worst case scenario not cyber-friendly. Other settings have varying levels of good and bad. Such as high end expensive cybernetics are pretty safe. But cheap low end jobs are potentially anything but.

Now add to the mix the subjects mental stability and depending on their outlook even a little cyber could be a bad idea. Dont stick it in the crazy.

[video=youtube;NJIjNs_s2NI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJIjNs_s2NI[/youtube]

Mechanically, my players would usually stack some Empathy (not at the cost of Ref though) to get more cyberware. So It kinda sorta worked, in that players had to be aware of how much HC they were racking up. though with some smart purchases, you were usually good. Ref booster, skinweave, a smartgun link and a cybereye is usually safe even for a character with average Emp.

Thematically, I thought it fit very well. Power at the cost of humanity. The lurking danger of some NPC with a little too much cyberware going nuts.

In hindsight, I'd probably do up a psychosis table for players with low Emp to roll on. Character knocking on cyberpsychosis should start showing symptoms at Emp 3-1.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1092836[video=youtube;NJIjNs_s2NI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJIjNs_s2NI[/youtube]

Mechanically, my players would usually stack some Empathy (not at the cost of Ref though) to get more cyberware. So It kinda sorta worked, in that players had to be aware of how much HC they were racking up. though with some smart purchases, you were usually good. Ref booster, skinweave, a smartgun link and a cybereye is usually safe even for a character with average Emp.

Thematically, I thought it fit very well. Power at the cost of humanity. The lurking danger of some NPC with a little too much cyberware going nuts.

In hindsight, I'd probably do up a psychosis table for players with low Emp to roll on. Character knocking on cyberpsychosis should start showing symptoms at Emp 3-1.

TBH Mirrorshades has one:

3d6 CYBERPSYCHOSIS
3 Hatred against humanity. Make WIS or INT checks to see if character acts on it.
4-5 Spaced out. Total fascination with abstracts. Loss of human feeling. Make WIS or INT check to snap out of it.
6-7 Paranoia.
8-9 Rejection of biological life in favor of cyberware. Will attempt to replace all human parts with cyberware.
10-11 Rejection of cyberware in favor of humanity. Will attempt to remove all cyberware in favor of organic material.
12-13 Delusions of invincibility.
14-15 Character lives in a fantasy world and acts accordingly.
16-17 Character has lost all sense of meaning in his life. It's possible he goes looking for a cult or a religion that helps him cope.
18 Character develops one or more phobias (fear of heights, narrow rooms, crowds, etc.). If something triggers the phobia, make WIS or INT check to resist acting on it.

I never liked cyberpsychosis. It didn't really fit with the genre to my mind - and seemed quasi-mystic. (Essence fit better with Shadowrun because of the explicit magic.)

It seemed to me that in cyberpunk, money was the real power, and that could be the main limit on cyberware. A billionaire could have all the cyberware they wanted.

Quote from: Aglondir;1092816Since we're discussing cyberpunk in various threads, its time to revisit a classic issue: loss of empathy (or humanity, or something else?) due to too much cybernetic augs. Mechanically, it was a way to limit or regulate cyberware getting out of control. Did it work?

Thematically it stands on its own merits. Or not?  Many people did not like it then, and still don't.

I'm brainstorming an idea where replacing a body part that's been accidentally severed or destroyed won't reduce your empathy, but voluntarily doing so will. Grafting on cyberware from a defeated foe, even more so.

What say you?

Reading all the other comments thus far makes me think of Major Motoko from Ghost in the shell.
I mean, she's fully loaded, but also don't seem to have lost THAT MUCH empathy....
On the other hand, she is also a deliberate powerhouse that really isn't fit as a regular player character.

As i see it, it is thematically what i would call "iffy", as i rather imagine one might go full tank with little to no actual loss, while another may go nuts over an arm if it doesn't suit them.
So the connection more bionics = more loss may be effective in limiting the use of bionics, but really, there would eventually arrive means of avoiding "cyber-psychosis" in varying ways.

Really, for starters, if you are willing to chop off a limb to get a leg-up on the competition, then you might actually lack empathy to begin with.
While, on the other hand, if it is to recover a limb you lost in an accident, your empathy may very well be fully intact.
A lot relies also on things like self-image and ideals, but there is also the point of
"this is dangerous, we have to research to make something better!"
vs
"This is comparatively cheap and/or easy, and research costs money."
that would affect whether bionics would result in cyber-psychosis or not.

One might get around it with "Quality costs", of course.

It worked great. I always found it quite believable and I enforced it ruthlessly because I'm sorry... voluntarily dismembering yourself, replacing your limbs with superhuman equivalents, having your remaining dermis toughened with bullet-proof fibers, and then having sections of your face removed and refitted for replaceable modular parts, including multiple eyes. Possibly having multiple organs replaced...

yeah that's going to cause a disconnect.

You have people *today* choosing to not socialize with others simply because of the synaptic circuits firing in different patterns in their heads. You have people choosing to cleave to their respective sub-culture based on melanin content in their skin... You have people that put body-piercings in their faces, tattoos on their heads and necks that then only associate with other like-minded people, and you think going cyber wouldn't cause an even greater disconnect??

Yeah... CP2020 was doing the whole freak-out "I hate society" massacre thing  long before it became vogue in real life. I don't think the game influences real life, mind you. I think it described something that was bound to happen because of the decay of the social fabric. Worse - it did it with pin-point accuracy to the degree that the very people that believe America is "problematic" due to their own disassociation issues with those American values (i.e. Western European values) - is one of the big causes of the calamity that befalls America and then the rest of the world.

Cyberpsychosis, when we get to that tech-level - will be a thing. Morons in real-life today can't even handle reality as it is. Imagine when they have a cyberwear to punch "Nazis".

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092847TBH Mirrorshades has one:

3d6 CYBERPSYCHOSIS
3 Hatred against humanity. Make WIS or INT checks to see if character acts on it.
4-5 Spaced out. Total fascination with abstracts. Loss of human feeling. Make WIS or INT check to snap out of it.
6-7 Paranoia.
8-9 Rejection of biological life in favor of cyberware. Will attempt to replace all human parts with cyberware.
10-11 Rejection of cyberware in favor of humanity. Will attempt to remove all cyberware in favor of organic material.
12-13 Delusions of invincibility.
14-15 Character lives in a fantasy world and acts accordingly.
16-17 Character has lost all sense of meaning in his life. It's possible he goes looking for a cult or a religion that helps him cope.
18 Character develops one or more phobias (fear of heights, narrow rooms, crowds, etc.). If something triggers the phobia, make WIS or INT check to resist acting on it.

aha! Ty.

Quote from: Catelf;1092864Reading all the other comments thus far makes me think of Major Motoko from Ghost in the shell.
I mean, she's fully loaded, but also don't seem to have lost THAT MUCH empathy....
On the other hand, she is also a deliberate powerhouse that really isn't fit as a regular player character.

There are therapy rules, and Motoko has the resources of the government to provide it. If she were a 2020 character.

Quote from: tenbones;1092868Cyberpsychosis, when we get to that tech-level - will be a thing. Morons in real-life today can't even handle reality as it is. Imagine when they have a cyberwear to punch "Nazis".

The future is now.

"Our children became very plugged in around the year 2000," Borda told me during our podcast interview. "It's very hard to be empathetic and feel for another human being if you can't read another person's emotions. You don't learn emotional literacy facing a screen. You don't learn emotional literacy with emojis."

https://medium.com/@alonshwartz/our-kids-are-losing-their-empathy-technology-has-a-lot-to-do-with-it-7f18f2654a7f

Quote from: Catelf;1092864Reading all the other comments thus far makes me think of Major Motoko from Ghost in the shell.
I mean, she's fully loaded, but also don't seem to have lost THAT MUCH empathy....
On the other hand, she is also a deliberate powerhouse that really isn't fit as a regular player character.

I disagree about Motoko Kusanagi because the origin of the character has her suffering a horrific accident as a young child which led to her brain and nervous system being placed in a full cyborg body. Motoko Kusanagi literally grew up as a cyborg, which is different from being human and then getting cybered up. Motoko Kusanagi did not lose empathy so much as she never fully developed much empathy due to her unique upbringing.

Quote from: tenbones;1092868It worked great. I always found it quite believable and I enforced it ruthlessly because I'm sorry... voluntarily dismembering yourself, replacing your limbs with superhuman equivalents, having your remaining dermis toughened with bullet-proof fibers, and then having sections of your face removed and refitted for replaceable modular parts, including multiple eyes. Possibly having multiple organs replaced...

yeah that's going to cause a disconnect.

I agree. It worked in game as long as the results were applied ruthlessly to PC and NPC alike.

In my games, I was heavily influenced by not just the literature, but associated manga and anime as well. So with cybernetics being more expensive then flesh, but neural jacks and chipware being relatively cheap, I had biodroids in my games. A biodroid is a cloned or sewn together human form with a neural jack and chipware to guide it (biodroids without the chipware were only INT 2 and pretty much just dumb creatures who had less than animal instinct to guide them). Since they were human shaped, they could use any tool that a human could use. Since only the chipware and the neural jack was expensive, a biodroid was relatively cheap and expendable. Plus you could fast-grow them to order.* Biodroids then became the new slaves for the new Corporate States, and with the right programming could pass for normal people. I used EMP as the stat required to determine if the human you were talking to was actually real or was a biodroid, so EMP became something to be desired after a few encounters with these.

I got the idea from Masamune Shirow's Appleseed and from Blade Runner. This was years before I ever read any C.J. Cherryh, and I wish I would have read Cyteen while I was still running Cyberpunk for ideas.


*One mini-campaign I ran involved the PCs being hired to dig up Madonna's grave so that a Corp could grow a clone of her to use as a programmable living sex doll. I chose Madonna because in 1989, I could not think of a more annoying famous entertainer.

Quote from: jeff37923;1092880*One mini-campaign I ran involved the PCs being hired to dig up Madonna's grave so that a Corp could grow a clone of her to use as a programmable living sex doll. I chose Madonna because in 1989, I could not think of a more annoying famous entertainer.

Perhaps the New Kids on the Block?

Quote from: HappyDaze;1092881Perhaps the New Kids on the Block?

Cloning a dead singer to be a programmible RealDoll made of flesh was weird enough. Doing that with an entire boy band starts getting into Lovecraftian horror.