One thing that is never really done in fantasy, be it literature or gaming, is a thoughtfull look at what exactly it means to have a race of immortals.
Lets face it, Elves are some fucked up people.
Start with some assumptions: Elves are naturally immortal, meaning that from the early stages of their genesis, their evolution they have been so, rather than 'changing' through magic or 'technological' means later in their development cycle. This seems to be self evident from the source materials which never suggest that elves have ever had short lifespans... going so far as to refer to non-elves as 'mortal'.
Assumption Two: Elves did not always have high culture and magic/elf-tech, and at some point in the far distant past they too were 'primative'. This is less supported. Many source documents suggest that the Elves were either gifted with great knowledge at their 'creation' by the Gods or stole it from some Elder race that had 'enslaved' them... possibly creating them in the process. Despite the Elvish lifespan, no eyewitness accounts are typically provided suggesting instead that these stories are not unlike the mythic histories of less long lived races and are heavily distorted from whatever kernals of truth they contain.
Assumption three: Elvish immortality is not proof against accident or violent deaths, and may not cover certain diseases. This is the strongest of our assumptions, and consequently is among the most important. Elves are shown to die all the time in the source materials, typically under violent circumstances.
Assumption Four: Accidental death and disease, while still possible (and accounted for biologically) are rare due to the prevalence of Magic and magic like Elf-tech, per source documents. That is: Elves do not suffer death in accordance with their birth rate. This is a strongly supported assumption.
Assumption Five: Despite having no measurable death rate due to 'natural causes', and a birth rate designed to compensate for more primative, violent conditions, Elves do not seem to have a growing population, and in many source documents are viewed as a dying race.
Assumption Six: The elves have, depending upon sources, fought, and continute to fight, racial holy wars against Orcs and occasionally Dwarves. In some sources, Elves also fight 'evil elves', be they Drow, or Norns, or what have you.
Let us break it down then. Elves are violent motherfuckers, ELVES pick the wars they fight as a means of controlling their population. Unlike humans, who turned from tribal nations to agricultural to support larger populations, Elves remain very much 'sophisticated hunter gatherers'. Like all other H-G cultures, Elves use violent activities to weed out unnecessary consumers. This has an additional benefit of preventing stagnation, as occasionally old and powerful Elves are brought down in one of their many racial wars.
Don't let the cities fool you into thinking Elves have agriculture... have you ever seen an Elf farm? No, and you won't. However, you DO see, all the time I might add, elven warriors, mages and hunters. Hunters, people, elves HUNT, they get their food from the wild. Why do you think they hate the encroachment of Man into their forests? Hey ya!
Now, additionally, we can assume that Elves are not naturally ambitious. Consider this: In other races there are power shifts when the old guard die off and new blood step up into place. People die at different rates. However, with elves, the only deaths that occur are violent ones, and the leaders of Elven culture are the most insulated from that violence, making their chances of dying negligable. We can extrapolate, barely, that Elves naturally revere the wisest and most capable members of their species, and when such members prove to have grown hidebound and inflexible a cultural rift occurs. Occasionally a Leader will be forced to step down, which may result in a later violent death on the battlefield (as older, more powerful Elves are valued warriors), otherwise you get two Leaders, and the inevitable split that occurs, leading to another elven tribe, and another elven nation forming somewhere. Presumably the first time this occured in their history you got the 'Evil Elves' due to the rancor caused by this unexpected development. Presumably, later splits were more equitable, or perhaps more genocidal, thus there are not several incompatable elvish races.
I am torn over speculation as to wether or not Elves tend to naturally gravitate toward beautiful leaders, or naturally tend to grow more beautiful the more wisdom and power they have. However, as this could trend from sociology to biology I feel that I could be going too far afield....
DAMN, Spike. Good stuff.
Now get back in the pokeball.
I'm tempted to expand on this topic, but I'm currently tapped. Gimme something to riff off of, or ask a question...
...just don't send me back to the ball
How about intrafamiliar relations? When your great-great-great-great-great-grandfather isn't functionally any older than your uncle, what sort of situations does that lead to? Who has the seat of power in a given clan?
What does Elmerin II do when Elmerin XXVII marries Almecia, who's another one of II's descendants? Why, they're practically brother and sister!
Well, my first reaction is to determine how The Silmarillion fits into this view. I happen to think it fits very well. Especially if you consider how your assessment fits with many of the stories of overly-proud elves disagreeing with the leader and taking a different path, dividing the population into two (or more) subgroups. Take Feanor, for example.
It also bring the question to mind - how do elven beliefs of the "afterlife" differ from those of other races, specifically humans, dwarves, etc.
In a sense, and I'm going from Tolkien here being one of the major influences in the development of gaming, Elves are walking spirits, stuff made of the afterlife living amongst the mortals.
I know there's at least one (probably more) other, more traditional views of the elves as part of the fairy kingdom, so...
Good stuff! :)
Quote from: Spike... Don't let the cities fool you into thinking Elves have agriculture... have you ever seen an Elf farm? No, and you won't. However, you DO see, all the time I might add, elven warriors, mages and hunters. Hunters, people, elves HUNT, they get their food from the wild. Why do you think they hate the encroachment of Man into their forests? Hey ya!...
Well, elves do seem to tend gardens. They're generally protrayed as having the ultimate 'greenthumbs', and they cultivate herbs (especially powerful healing herbs), etc. And that lemblas/waybread has to come from somewhere.
Given their abilities with magic, though, they can generally avoid undignified labour-intensive farming. Or perhaps they simply trade their 'upscale' and 'prestige' products (herbs, magic, wellcrafted items and weapons, etc.) for basic agricultural goods and ale. (I'm thinking of Thranduil's woodelf realm in northern Mirkwood here; those elves traded with the men of Laketown for stuff like ale, wine, etc.)
You have to recall, Fonky, that Elves exist largely in an extended tribal culture. We don't recognize it because it is more sophisticated and evolved than most human tribal structures, which largely get abandoned in the face of urbanization. Human tribes that persist in the face of urbanization do so by xenophobic insularity. Elves never moved to an agricultural system, despite knowledge of it, thus never felt the need to 'force' the tribal structure to stay... it just did. Of course, Elvish cities are famed for being 'one with nature', thus facilitating a hunter gatherer culture even while being somewhat 'urbanized'. Naturally there is some limited cultivation of fruits and berries, but this is more akin to gardening than farming...
Which brings us back to your point about interfamilial relations. While actual brothers and sisters don't mate... and the possibility for Elves to regulate reproduction might make purely sexual relationships permissable that isn't the scope of this discussion, cousins, particularly distant cousins are actually preferred for breeding within limits. Due to a lack of insular xenophobia, however, going outside the 'tribe' is actually encourage to keep the various Elvish nations together. This, naturally enough, would be a root cause for strife with 'evil elves', as such tribes would tend to be more xenophobic and thus unwilling to tride 'brides' to rebuild ties with their fellow elves in the wake of a cultural rift over leadership issues. This is born out by the source documents, where the 'evil elves' are not particularly mean spirited or selfish, but actually hate all outsiders, while possibly remaining on reasonable terms with their tribe-mates. Naturally, sleeping with ones own decendents, no matter how far removed, is frowned upon except by those xenophobic elves.
However, the reasoning is likely to be different than mere 'inbreeding'. As elves age, they accumulate knowledge and skills and power. A decendent is likely to have several millenia LESS knowledge or power, so such relationships are grossly one sided, and thus entirely casual. Except for the most rarified Leaders (who, it might be noted, are likely to have 'fathered' their entire tribe to one extent or another) casual relationships are never for mating. As a Leader (king or queen) is likely to have too many responsibilities to waste time on more familial concerns (remember the tribal fact, the king or queen is figuratively, if not literally the father or mother of the tribe, thus the entire tribes welfare is more important than any one child), though would still engage in breeding behavior, particularly if there is a near equal in the tribe that they have as a partner/mate.
To apply human taboo's is not entirely inappropriate, however, to apply human taboos from non-analog human cultures (ie: non-tribal) is folly. If our brother-sister relationship speculated on above were to mate, they would be breaking a taboo, likewise if they attempted a pair bonding (marriage as a precursor to mating behavior) they would be refused. On the other hand, if one were to become destitute for some reason, the other sibling (of either gender) would be expected to 'marry' the other to provide them a house and home, though like many human tribes that practice such interfamilial marraiges, the relationships are purely legal formalities.
However, it is important to discuss Elvish 'age of majorities'. Traditionally Elves are viewed as children until well into their first century. To an extent they are 'disposable' prior to then (less so than when disease and accident claimed more 'infants' than adults mind you), as they are 'more prone' to dying prior to becoming 'adults'. However, biologically, the elvish race can not sustain itself with such a slow generational rate. Biologically Elves mature only somewhat slower than humans do, say twice as slow rather than five times... even that is a stretch. This leads to a very extended adolesence period. It would not be a stretch to assume most Half Elves are born from 'child' elf parents eager to get on with their lives, rather than mature elves who have already seen entire human cultures rise and fall. Likewise with adventurers. These are likely runaway elves seeking to be treated as the adults they feel they are, and in fact biologically ARE. Maturity levels may vary wildly. More militant times may find entire legions of 'Elf Children' being feilded, moreso if the enemy is the aggressor and is a credible threat to the race.
To gain status in Elf culture one must prove competent. This can be accomplished most redily by simply surviving long enough. However, heroic acts, or for less quarrelsome Elves, masterpeices of skill, are required to get noticed before one has passed the first millenia of their lives. Thus, many elves are extremely driven to master their chosen art (or arts, as once you've mastered one, diminnishing returns sets in...making it harder to make even small gains in that endeavor)...
Almost all of this is an outgrowth of their immortality, you understand. Even their persistant H-G tribal social structure can be related to long lives. Indeed, who wants to be a full time farmer for all eternity?
Quote from: AkrasiaGood stuff! :)
Well, elves do seem to tend gardens. They're generally protrayed as having the ultimate 'greenthumbs', and they cultivate herbs (especially powerful healing herbs), etc. And that lemblas/waybread has to come from somewhere.
Ah.. I addressed this in passing while you were posting. I'll get more in depth with my next missive....:pundit:
As mentioned earlier, Elves do not have an agricultural system in place, and have chosen to deliberatly NOT follow an agricultural model. Given the LONG generational gaps, and the potentialy limitless reign of the current Elves in power this could concievably continue for millenia more. Of course, when things change in Elvish culture, they can do so with disturbing frequency. It should be noted that some Source Documents discuss 'Evil Elven' cultures using slave labor of 'lesser races' to 'farm' for them. Extrapolated out, it is possible that Elves have deliberately created a trade imbalance by inflating the value of their crafts as an economic means of recreating that with other civilized races. Regardless, Elves, naturally, are not inclined to till the soil, plant and harvest crops or husband animals. Rare exceptions do occur, many sources refer to horse riding elvish cavelry which would imply SOME level of animal husbandry, other sources however retain the idea the Elves do not, culturally, take up tamed animals of any sort, and remain largely a foot bound culture.
However, as their tribal culture has grown and evolved, so has their sophistication in hunting and gathering. Elves do practice extremely limited forms of both agriculture and animal 'husbandry'. Elves Garden. Any Elf who is 'settled' into a community for any length of time will begin cultivating berry and nut producing plants, may 'adopt' a fruit tree for their useage. However, it is very important to realize that the primary purpose of Elvan gardens is not food production but aesthetics, and to a lesser degree Status. Many of the plants cultivated may, in fact, be inedible, even toxic. It is not beyond an Elf to spend a century or two cultivating a single peice of fruit on a tree to lure out an incredibly rare moon moth simply to 'one up' a rival... and woe betide the unlucky soul who plucks the fruit and eats it.
As for husbandry, the Elves are very particular, even cautious about their hunting. They may allow one game species to overpopulate an area to lure in another more to their liking... Elves do show a preference for carnivore meat it has been shown. Likewise they are careful in how they cull their prey stocks. While not strictly husbandry, it shares much in common with the practice.
This leads us to a peculiarity of Elven culture: Sharing food. It is extremely uncommon for an Elf to share a meal with another being. Sitting together and eating, yes, but sharing? Never. To give a gift of food is either a mark of high esteem, particularly if it is from the giver's personal garden, or an insult of the highest order, declaring the reciever of the gift unable to care for himself. Refusing such a gift requires extraordinarily elaborate ritual behaviors, not the least of which is determining WHY it's being given, and is not recommended for non-elves. Of course, if an elf is snubbing you with a gift of food, its very likely that a non-elf would notice or care.
Spirituality and the Afterlife: Elves do not have a belief in the afterlife. They believe, perhaps rightly, that the gods made their spirits and flesh one, when one dies, both die. Despite this rather grim outlook, Elves are rather blase about death amongst their own kind. Mourning is not uncommon amongst their kind, but only with immedeate family, and not always then. Elves see too much death in their long lives to be overly concerned with it. Elven Gods are typically viewed as simply the most powerful elves of all, the Ur-Elves. There are some source documents that suggest that the Elves believe that being a God is simply a skill, not unlike being a Mage or mighty warrior. The accuracy of this statement can not be adequetely tested, as Elvish language grows increasingly layered in meaning when approaching religious discussion.
Spike, gotta say I've loved your stuff here (and in the dwarven thread). What brought all this on? I just have to copy and paste to keep in my digital folder of "stuff for gaming."
Keep it up!
Eh... I am an excellent bullshitter, what can I say?;)
Actually, i've long had a facination with the concept of Immortality and its impact upon society and culture, so this was an easy thing to jump into. One point I've meant to stress in this, but have not gotten into yet is that, especially compared to the Dwarves, Elves are incredibly individualistic, and this is shown repeatedly in their culture, in the arcane and occasionaly bizzare ways they use to gain status by 'one upping' each other. Other than survival needs, Elves have essentially forever to accomplish whatever they like, there is no sense of 'wasting time' to explore anything that catches their fancy. If it is useful to other elves for them to do it, they gain status for doing 'favors' for others.
For example, presuming a normal biological function in regards to waste products, Elves undoubtedly need a sewage system of some sort. The Elf that choses to take on that task gains an incredible amount of status and respect if he can perform it better than any other Elf (many of whom might just be gunning for the 'points' they can score from him by stealing his 'customers'...) without earning a single coin in wages, or with any responsibility to keep doing it should he grow bored. It then becomes incumbent upon other elves to make a name for themselves by topping whatever acheivements he has made, and if he can become the benchmark by which all other elves measure their sewage workers, then so much the better.
Almost every facet of public life is like that, even the so called Kings or Queens of the Elves rule only so long as no one else wished to follow another. Obviously, in cases of rulership over the local Tribe, if there is not a clear consensus, one group or the other must leave as two seperate, competeing rulers is just bad form. Leaders, it can be assumed, have little direct power over their followers, but must still expect to be obeyed as a matter of course.
Naturally, some cultural rifts occur regarding what is and is not acceptable behavior. A leader that favors more direct control over his followers will not lack for Elves looking for a strong central government, but those opposed will be utterly hostile. This inevitably resolves itself with a tribal rift, and even when violence does not occur, the resultant bad blood inevitably leads the two camps to cement their chosen positions, rather than the give and take among followers which naturally occurs among the individualistic Elves prior to the rift as moods change.
Arise my minion! Arise and go forth once more to seek out and consume the minds of would be gamers that haunt this hallowed place! ARISE!!!!
I'm intrigued by your idea of the "early split." An idea as to why later splits would be less devastating is this: My enemy's enemy is my friend. Elves breaking off from one culture may ally themselves with the other, even being slowly subsumed. It might go a little ways towards explaining the many "lone good dark elves." ;)
Well, mind you that in my interpretion that the 'evil elves' are not necessarily driven by evil, nor are they necessarily dark of skin.
Hmm.. where did I put the notes I had?
Essentially the first 'Splinter Tribe' are still out there, the original immortal elves having continued to expirement with forbidden secrets and ally with demons. Their children aren't part of the 'tribe' but are resources at this late date, never able to 'catch up' in terms of knowledge or power to gain respect as 'adults'.
If you read Tolkien's notes on the subject Elves don't die period. If they are killed in Middle Earth they literally resurrect in Aman in the Halls of Mandos. Few of them return. Glorfindel is the only one that a definite case can be made.
This is because Illuvater's promise to the elves that they will endure into the end of Middle Earth then join with him in singing a new song of creation. Man's fate is apparently something outside of Middle Earth and is not known.
Ah: who said Tolkien was the only Source Document? I posit a much different creation than Tolkien does. Likewise, I am far more interested in the psychological implication of immortality than he was, and the attendant sociological trends among a species that does not suffer generational 'churn'.
Hey Spike, I know we don't subscribe to thread ownership here much, but do you figure this is the place for other people's takes on Elves (and Orcs, Gnomes as per the thread) or do you just wanna discuss yours?
I'm pretty sure I invited other people to play around with the assumptions in several of the threads... so...
Go For It. You Can Do EET....:p
Quote from: SpikeAh: who said Tolkien was the only Source Document? I posit a much different creation than Tolkien does. Likewise, I am far more interested in the psychological implication of immortality than he was, and the attendant sociological trends among a species that does not suffer generational 'churn'.
Useful things can come out of that line of thought. However the Fantasy Genre isn't all about extrapolating from known starting points like Sci-Fi. For example one factor is the role that gods play in the realm. If a background has gods as a real presence then that will produce a different society than something like our earth or a world with magic as science. Plus the role of magic in the society in the first place. While Elves are hunter-gatherers the influence of magic is such that the forests inhabit are vastly more productive than mundane forests.
Your analysis is fine given the premises but it is devoid of any consideration of the effects of magic and divine. And both are heavily present in fantasy.
Estar: over in the Gnomish thread I just revealed my 'secrets' from the 'setting' I eventually turned these into, I guess I can do it again.
The 'Ur-Tribe' of the Elves, in fact, lives in a giant, semi-aware forest of extreme viciousness. The Elves THINK they understand something important about the metaphysics of the world (that the Gods are 'jumped up' mortals) and thus have little divine drive... they view their oldest, most powerful living Elves as semi-divine and the real gods as little better. The true Gods, from an Elven perspective, are a bit harder for them to grasp, and aren't particularly inclined towards collecting worship. Unknown to the Siti elves (the decendents of the Ur-tribe) the very forest they call home is in fact the body and soul of one of those True Gods, the expression of all forests, and their long exposure to it has altered them, making them more savage and more a part of the forest itself.
In a way the Humans have an advantage here, as their worship of Smith, in various guises, shows a somewhat accidental grasp of their role in creation, but it is the Dwarves that could be considered the most spiritually 'advanced' as their Gods are generally expressions of the world itself, First Gods if you will... though the Gods that actually recieve their prayers are simply really ancient Gods of the World that may even predate the Great Engine...
Or, as I said elsewhere: my Necromancy is obviously not complete yet....:D