Quote from: jhkim on August 24, 2023, 03:13:29 AM

Quote from: tenbones on August 24, 2023, 01:58:58 AM
You are *ignoring* that contextually I do not find The Spirit (as my collection of Eisner's work will attest to) nor Ebony, "off putting". They're a product of their time and while it might be not the best representation of an idea, I don't find them offensive. No more than I hold other cultures standards from 4-days or 400-years ago offensive to me. I'm an adult.

I am not ignoring that. Your opinions are your own, and I'm not claiming anything about your opinions or reactions.

To set this as a more specific scene --

Let's say there's a Golden Age heroes RPG event at a convention, where players can create their own characters. Let's say I create a sidekick character like Ebony White as my PC. I play him as he is portrayed in the original comics - not better or worse, but representatively.

I don't know how you (tenbones) would react if you were also in that game. However, I do think that some of other players are likely to find it off-putting.

And so what is your point? Are you hanging your entire point of discussion on the fact that because someone *could* act inappropriate, in the wrong setting with the wrong people present ... what? We shouldn't engage in the content?

Convention play *is* different than play at the privacy of your own table.

I don't let just anyone sit down at my table to play, as I run for sane adults. But when I run for children, or mixed company, like in a convention - I focus on the goal of the adventure. Campaign play vs. One-shots are also different. If you're trying to insinuate that Golden Age Comics *must* have content that modern idiots would find offensive in order to be authentic - I would say you have a microscopic point that only underscores the larger issue: People today, generally, are morons. And they want to be coddled for their sensitivities and their fetishes that make them morons.

If *you* are okay with that - in whatever fashion that allows you to engage with people with those issues, imaginary or not, great! It doesn't mean you don't have to be an asshole GM just because a player is being an asshole. If you were playing like that, it would be a reflection on you, not me. I would roleplay accordingly. Just like when I'm at a convention and someone is a murderhobo. If my character didn't tolerate that - yeah I'd deal with your PC personally. If my PC was down with it - I might join in. Depends. In a convention setting, I do what I always do as a player, I play my character as my character is supposed to be played (at least in my mind).

Still don't know what your point is? GM's can always tell a player to GTFO, if they don't like their antics. I usually just let things take their course and enforce the setting upon them. Acting like an asshole at my table is trivial to deal with. I don't pretend to control other's feelings. That's a fools errand, I just put on a good game since that's what I'm there to do.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2023, 01:49:00 PM
To me it's about standing in a soapbox to scream how virtuous they are and those old times were istophobic, ergo you should include those themes AND denounce them, or you shouldn't include them because people might become istophobes just by figthing the bad guys.

Speaking of "presentism", isn't judging the Golden Age Comics sexist and racist exactly that?

IMNSHO you should include whatever you think fits your world and players.

So.

I'm curious. Is it wrong to call the socially-rampant Racism and Sexism of the 20s wrong?

Because it was very real. I know because of reading about it and from first-hand testimony from my parents and their older relatives and friends.

I'm not talking about your strawman PCs. I'm talking about the setting of the 1920s itself?

If we're talking Golden Age, then mostly the period from the 1930s to the early 1950s. Pulp is *not* Golden Age, but at the same time, I'd like some pulp elements in the setting all the same. The historic of what came before, and older Pulp Heroes/Villains who are witness to this new age of Full on Costumed Superheroes over Mystery Men and Adventurers.

The DC Graphic novel "The Golden Age" is one of my favorites, takes place in the 1950s and is about the tail end of the era, I think it's a great inspiration for how most Golden Ages have been predicted to end... on a downer note with Government interference until the Silver age brings the wonder back..

But in-between that... Any Golden Age is going to have lots of Nazi fighting too...

Actual Nazis... not what modern Progressives *think* Nazis are.

Lots of themes of Hope during the early Golden Age of course... Prohibition was just coming to an end, and America was getting out of the Depression... Superheroes represent hope again...

In a lot of ways when I think about it, Pulp had a much more global focus than the Golden Age, in a lot of ways, the Golden Age is about "Coming Home". The Superheroes aren't exploring the Inner Earth and Secret Jungle Temples or Ancient Chinese Monestaries like Pulp Heroes did (they can, but it wasn't what they regularly did) instead focusing on the homefront, and then going against Europe and Japan in WW2.

There's a lot of potential in Foreign Supervillains in WW2, not just the Nazis, but the Italians and the Japanese as well.

Throw in some return of old Gods stuff... Maybe someone claiming to be Hercules with the Italians Super Team.

And full on Supervillains who plan to take over the world outside of the WW2 powers, and leading their own Mafia/Organized crime gangs for the first time (and displacing the old Pulp Villains) would also be prominent.

Quote from: Theory of Games on August 24, 2023, 04:03:22 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2023, 01:49:00 PM
To me it's about standing in a soapbox to scream how virtuous they are and those old times were istophobic, ergo you should include those themes AND denounce them, or you shouldn't include them because people might become istophobes just by figthing the bad guys.

Speaking of "presentism", isn't judging the Golden Age Comics sexist and racist exactly that?

IMNSHO you should include whatever you think fits your world and players.

So.

I'm curious. Is it wrong to call the socially-rampant Racism and Sexism of the 20s wrong?

Because it was very real. I know because of reading about it and from first-hand testimony from my parents and their older relatives and friends.

I'm not talking about your strawman PCs. I'm talking about the setting of the 1920s itself?

The Golden Age of Supers doesn't take place in the 1920s, something you should know BEFORE inserting yourself into the conversation.

As for your strawman, well fuck it and fuck you too.

Quote from: Theory of Games on August 24, 2023, 04:03:22 PM

I'm curious. Is it wrong to call the socially-rampant Racism and Sexism of the 20s wrong?

Because it was very real. I know because of reading about it and from first-hand testimony from my parents and their older relatives and friends.

I'm not talking about your strawman PCs. I'm talking about the setting of the 1920s itself?

The 1920s is not the Golden Age, that's the era of Pulp.

The 1930s to the 1950s is the era of the Golden Age, and yes there would be some racism, but the whole, "War in Europe and Japan" thing kinda starts dominating everything, including what's going on with the Superhero community... and then the dropping of Atomic Bombs as well.

Quote from: Orphan81 on August 24, 2023, 04:36:38 PM
The 1930s to the 1950s is the era of the Golden Age, and yes there would be some racism, but the whole, "War in Europe and Japan" thing kinda starts dominating everything, including what's going on with the Superhero community... and then the dropping of Atomic Bombs as well.

The Golden Age of Comics is usually specifically phrased as 1938 (with the introduction of Superman) to 1956 (when the Silver Age started with the new Flash). Its heyday and focus is 1938 to the mid-1940s, though, with comics declining in popularity after that.

I think WWII and atomic bombs is largely independent of racism and sexism. There can be war comics with more racism and sexism, and war comics with less. I'd note that Captain Marvel's black valet Steamboat appeared during WWII from 1942 to 1945, for example.

"Waaaacism & Sexismism!" "If you don't make your heroes sexismist, wacist istaphobes you're a bad person!"
But also:
"Waaaacism & Sexismism!" "If you make ANY PC a sexismist, wacist istaphobe you're a bad person!"

Play as you want, it's your table, but please stop the moral posturing and trying to browbeat others into doing your bidding.

I guess having Tarzan in his first appearances speaking a broken English is also a sign of huwhite supremacy or something.

Because we all know you can totally make accents in comic books without making it stereotypical, but also making accents when you roleplay is waaaaacist, sexismist and istaphobic.

As for the subject of the thread (I`m done with those hijacking it for political reasons), you can totally go either way, in most comic books there wasn't a show of racismism, sexismism or istaphobia by the good guys, which is all we need to know. But if YOU want to make Roscharch and your GM allows it have at it.

Generally speaking in most Superhero games, regardless of the era... Prejudice and Racism is the aspect of Villains only.

Yes this means making the world more accepting in these eras than they really were... But it's a fucking Superhero game, that's how it's supposed to be.

Trying to stay on topic and not get sucked into politics.

In my campaign, using the inspirations I mentioned up-thread, I started the players at the 1939 international expo at Treasure Island (which was built for this expo).  For whatever reason, the PCs were at the expo when German super-agents tried to steal the American super-robot "Steel Freedom" (which was itself copied from a British design, Ironclad... making it a double-entendre... steal freedom... get it?)

This let an international feel, like the original Star Trek or 1978-era X-Men, creep into the game, as it was an INTERNATIONAL expo. 

Whoa

The computer game Freedom Force vs. the Third Reich, in which a Silver Age superhero team time-travels back to the 1940s to meet some Golden Age superheroes and team up with them against the Nazis, is a wonderful evocation of both of those ages of comic books.

Quote from: Brigman on August 26, 2023, 11:09:32 PM
In my campaign, using the inspirations I mentioned up-thread, I started the players at the 1939 international expo at Treasure Island (which was built for this expo).  For whatever reason, the PCs were at the expo when German super-agents tried to steal the American super-robot "Steel Freedom" (which was itself copied from a British design, Ironclad... making it a double-entendre... steal freedom... get it?)

This let an international feel, like the original Star Trek or 1978-era X-Men, creep into the game, as it was an INTERNATIONAL expo.

Quote from: I on September 15, 2023, 05:31:01 PM
The computer game Freedom Force vs. the Third Reich, in which a Silver Age superhero team time-travels back to the 1940s to meet some Golden Age superheroes and team up with them against the Nazis, is a wonderful evocation of both of those ages of comic books.

One should be very clear about sources for a Golden Age game. A game that is emulating Star Trek or 1978-era X-Men is very different from one that is emulating actual Golden Age comic books. Likewise, a mashup of Silver Age and Golden Age sounds likely to be more like Silver Age time-traveling back rather than in actual 1940s style.

The purist in me often cringes at mixing retro material for being authentic.

I think it depends on what you're trying to capture really.  I have a good collection of the Golden Age Green Lantern reprints, and while I love them, they're... pretty basic, really. 

I mentioned up-thread "The Golden Age" series by Robinson and Smith, that was really fun and an influence on my campaign...

Quote from: Brigman on September 15, 2023, 10:09:14 PM
I think it depends on what you're trying to capture really.  I have a good collection of the Golden Age Green Lantern reprints, and while I love them, they're... pretty basic, really. 

I mentioned up-thread "The Golden Age" series by Robinson and Smith, that was really fun and an influence on my campaign...

Cool,man,tell me more about it

Regarding the racism and sexism of the time period, it may be constructive to simply tell your players "we're not going there." You don't bring it up, and they don't either.

For instance, when I wanted to run a pirate campaign, with a set of players who were racially mixed, I made a point not to bring up slavery. Because the Age of Piracy is also the Age of Slavery, but I knew that if I went there, it would take over the campaign. You can't take a bunch of modern people and say "Kingston is surrounded by slave plantations" and have them not want to do something about it. Especially if they're playing "heroic pirates." So I made sure not to send the party to any slave plantations, and not to bring up the presence of slaves in Port Royal, and we kept it on the high seas.

My pirate game also had a moratorium on rape.