Quote from: Theory of Games on August 21, 2023, 06:03:58 PM
How do you run Golden Age w/o racism and sexism? It's why Call of Cthulhu is BS.

Stop pretending the 20s are the fkn 80s 

Quote from: Brigman on August 21, 2023, 06:17:46 PM
I don't.  I just don't glorify it.  It exists, and it's bad.  The heroes (for the most part) are assumed to be better than that.

This relates to a previous thread on Alexander Macris' categories for morality in historical-ish games.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/moral-values-in-fantasy-worlds/

Having Golden Age heroes be non-racist and non-sexist is Macris' category of "presentism".

I think it's an interesting conundrum of modern politics. I play a lot of 1920s horror games because of Call of Cthulhu, and I have sometimes (though not always) taken the "historicist" approach -- meaning a PC who is racist and/or sexist as was the norm in the 1920s.

I feel like this doesn't go over well with many liberal players because they prefer more egalitarian morals. However, it also doesn't go over well with many conservative players because the old-fashioned PCs come across as unsympathetic for their overt prejudice.

It's definitely a tricky issue.

Quote from: jhkim on August 23, 2023, 12:26:29 AM

Quote from: Theory of Games on August 21, 2023, 06:03:58 PM
How do you run Golden Age w/o racism and sexism? It's why Call of Cthulhu is BS.

Stop pretending the 20s are the fkn 80s 

Quote from: Brigman on August 21, 2023, 06:17:46 PM
I don't.  I just don't glorify it.  It exists, and it's bad.  The heroes (for the most part) are assumed to be better than that.

This relates to a previous thread on Alexander Macris' categories for morality in historical-ish games.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/moral-values-in-fantasy-worlds/

Having Golden Age heroes be non-racist and non-sexist is Macris' category of "presentism".

I think it's an interesting conundrum of modern politics. I play a lot of 1920s horror games because of Call of Cthulhu, and I have sometimes (though not always) taken the "historicist" approach -- meaning a PC who is racist and/or sexist as was the norm in the 1920s.

I feel like this doesn't go over well with many liberal players because they prefer more egalitarian morals. However, it also doesn't go over well with many conservative players because the old-fashioned PCs come across as unsympathetic for their overt prejudice.

It's definitely a tricky issue.

So, it's your contention that ALL Golden Age Heroes were both of those huh? I would love to see the evidence for this extraordinary claim. Maybe a thread in entertainment or Pundit's forum?

"Sexism" and "Racism" are not what people pretend they are these days. Were people treated differently in the "Golden Age"? Sure. Because times were different. The concept of being a racist back then meant something truer than the flexible slap-boxing word that gets bandied around today. If you make an observation about a cultures specific practices, odds are that some liberal leaning asshole will jump on it to virtue signal and go full "Reeeee!!!" and yell racism, regardless if it's true.

Jingoism is a more appropriate "vibe" that I'd use. And it's perfectly acceptable to use it at your table. But I'd say so is actual racism, slavery and genocide if that's what the game calls for. I find it *BIZARRE* that people try to calibrate publicly what is acceptable as if the people at your table are total strangers. That could be the case, but that's why as fucking adults you let those strangers know what your offering, and they can decide to exercise the one right that all players have: the right to not play.

I think Golden Age Supers should explore jingoist themes, racist themes revolving around political movements could definitely be a thing worth dealing with in the right campaign. But to sit here and wring hands over conjecture of what is/isn't "right" is stupid. What's right is what you as the GM make gameable content.

Golden Age Supers is about LOTS of crime and corruption and badass people masking up and taking it to them within a code of justice they will elaborate on as they go. Not everyone is the same, but the point is to seek Justice. Whatever that means to you - is grist for the mill.

Corrupt Politicians, Organized Crime, Cults, Industrialist Psychopaths, Foreign Communist/Socialists - all trying to take over the world/city/neighborhood the PC's have risen up to protect by whatever means appropriate? Yeah - that's cool shit. The devil in the details is for the GM to set that standard.

Edit: one of the reasons I was booted out of TBP because someone asked if using the term "Jap" is bad for their WWII "realistic" war campaign. And I said "Sure. if you're being realistic." (I'm part Japanese btw) I got reamed by some white-chick about how dare I advocate that, because not all white people would use that language... I posted a newspaper article from the post-Pearl Harbor event, NYT - "60% of Americans want all Japanese Americans to be executed." Now... 1) nowhere did I mention "white people" 2)nor did I say players have to do/say anything. But as the GM - you set the standard. If your players are that sensitive, and it bugs you, they probably shouldn't be playing TTRPG's with you.

To me it's about standing in a soapbox to scream how virtuous they are and those old times were istophobic, ergo you should include those themes AND denounce them, or you shouldn't include them because people might become istophobes just by figthing the bad guys.

Speaking of "presentism", isn't judging the Golden Age Comics sexist and racist exactly that?

IMNSHO you should include whatever you think fits your world and players.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2023, 01:46:11 AM

Quote from: jhkim on August 23, 2023, 12:26:29 AM

Quote from: Theory of Games on August 21, 2023, 06:03:58 PM
How do you run Golden Age w/o racism and sexism? It's why Call of Cthulhu is BS.

Stop pretending the 20s are the fkn 80s 

Quote from: Brigman on August 21, 2023, 06:17:46 PM
I don't.  I just don't glorify it.  It exists, and it's bad.  The heroes (for the most part) are assumed to be better than that.

This relates to a previous thread on Alexander Macris' categories for morality in historical-ish games.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/moral-values-in-fantasy-worlds/

Having Golden Age heroes be non-racist and non-sexist is Macris' category of "presentism".

I think it's an interesting conundrum of modern politics. I play a lot of 1920s horror games because of Call of Cthulhu, and I have sometimes (though not always) taken the "historicist" approach -- meaning a PC who is racist and/or sexist as was the norm in the 1920s.

I feel like this doesn't go over well with many liberal players because they prefer more egalitarian morals. However, it also doesn't go over well with many conservative players because the old-fashioned PCs come across as unsympathetic for their overt prejudice.

It's definitely a tricky issue.

So, it's your contention that ALL Golden Age Heroes were both of those huh? I would love to see the evidence for this extraordinary claim. Maybe a thread in entertainment or Pundit's forum?

No, I did not intend that. It is my contention that assuming the heroes are "better than that" (as Brigman suggests) is ahistorical. Racism and sexism were the norm in the 1940s - such as support for segregation and  anti-miscegenation laws.

Even a relatively inclusive hero, like Eisner's The Spirit - who has a black sidekick - would likely be controversial. The Spirit was one of the more inclusive comics, and he displays no animus towards black people. Still, he could come across as patronizing towards Ebony and Ebony's pals.

If I played a parallel to The Spirit with a black sidekick Ebony in a Golden Age heroes campaign, I suspect I'd make many players uncomfortable - including both left-leaning and right-leaning.

Quote from: jhkim on August 23, 2023, 02:42:27 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2023, 01:46:11 AM

Quote from: jhkim on August 23, 2023, 12:26:29 AM

Quote from: Theory of Games on August 21, 2023, 06:03:58 PM
How do you run Golden Age w/o racism and sexism? It's why Call of Cthulhu is BS.

Stop pretending the 20s are the fkn 80s 

Quote from: Brigman on August 21, 2023, 06:17:46 PM
I don't.  I just don't glorify it.  It exists, and it's bad.  The heroes (for the most part) are assumed to be better than that.

This relates to a previous thread on Alexander Macris' categories for morality in historical-ish games.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/moral-values-in-fantasy-worlds/

Having Golden Age heroes be non-racist and non-sexist is Macris' category of "presentism".

I think it's an interesting conundrum of modern politics. I play a lot of 1920s horror games because of Call of Cthulhu, and I have sometimes (though not always) taken the "historicist" approach -- meaning a PC who is racist and/or sexist as was the norm in the 1920s.

I feel like this doesn't go over well with many liberal players because they prefer more egalitarian morals. However, it also doesn't go over well with many conservative players because the old-fashioned PCs come across as unsympathetic for their overt prejudice.

It's definitely a tricky issue.

So, it's your contention that ALL Golden Age Heroes were both of those huh? I would love to see the evidence for this extraordinary claim. Maybe a thread in entertainment or Pundit's forum?

No, I did not intend that. It is my contention that assuming the heroes are "better than that" (as Brigman suggests) is ahistorical. Racism and sexism were the norm in the 1940s - such as support for segregation and  anti-miscegenation laws.

Even a relatively inclusive hero, like Eisner's The Spirit - who has a black sidekick - would likely be controversial. The Spirit was one of the more inclusive comics, and he displays no animus towards black people. Still, he could come across as patronizing towards Ebony and Ebony's pals.

If I played a parallel to The Spirit with a black sidekick Ebony in a Golden Age heroes campaign, I suspect I'd make many players uncomfortable - including both left-leaning and right-leaning.

Which is important ONLY if you plan on having the game take place in the ACTUAL 1940s.

I don't need to do so to have the feel of Golden Age Supers, there are several ways:

Go the BTAS route and emulate the feel, the heroic ethos and the aesthetic but in a "modern" era. This is a "The Future as it never was" setting.

Have it take place in an alternate 1940s Earth that looks almost like the real one with some key differences at your choosing and preference.

Those are just two workarounds, I play/GM to have fun not to replicate/emmulate/simmulate real world issues at the cost of the fun. Which doesn't mean including those issues will ruin the fun for everybody ALL the time, but unles you're playing an anti-hero or in a morally grey world or evil PCs most people would balk at playing a racist or mysoggynist (the real kind not the progressive redefinition of those terms).

So, since I want to have fun, my players want to have fun and most people wouldn't want to play those types of characters (and since most superheroes of the time weren't) I choose to either not present the situation or to include it as something the bad guys do.

Not out of some moral superiority regarding people back then, but because I want to have fun not to judge or to simmulate real life.

But as always, in your table you do as you wish, as long as you're not trying to imposse on others or browbeating others for not playing YOUR way I have no beef.

No. You'd only make players that are ignorant with acquired conditioning uncomfortable.

Anyone that is self-aware enough to understand history and is not so narcissistic to project their own uninformed feelings into a game about make-believe is probably not really suited for adult games. If that's the kind of game you want to run for those kinds of people, then you're fine.

I'm not being sarcastic either - I do understand running games appropriate for the players, like children. But adults that are effectively, emotionally stunted, I don't have time for. Your mileage may vary.

Quote from: tenbones on August 23, 2023, 03:42:32 PM
No. You'd only make players that are ignorant with acquired conditioning uncomfortable.

Anyone that is self-aware enough to understand history and is not so narcissistic to project their own uninformed feelings into a game about make-believe is probably not really suited for adult games. If that's the kind of game you want to run for those kinds of people, then you're fine.

I'm not being sarcastic either - I do understand running games appropriate for the players, like children. But adults that are effectively, emotionally stunted, I don't have time for. Your mileage may vary.

I'm not sure how much we're disagreeing. Independent of your judgement of them, would you agree that many such players exist - who would find it off-putting to have The Spirit and Ebony in a Golden Age heroes campaign?

Quote from: jhkim on August 23, 2023, 04:08:55 PM

Quote from: tenbones on August 23, 2023, 03:42:32 PM
No. You'd only make players that are ignorant with acquired conditioning uncomfortable.

Anyone that is self-aware enough to understand history and is not so narcissistic to project their own uninformed feelings into a game about make-believe is probably not really suited for adult games. If that's the kind of game you want to run for those kinds of people, then you're fine.

I'm not being sarcastic either - I do understand running games appropriate for the players, like children. But adults that are effectively, emotionally stunted, I don't have time for. Your mileage may vary.

I'm not sure how much we're disagreeing. Independent of your judgement of them, would you agree that many such players exist - who would find it off-putting to have The Spirit and Ebony in a Golden Age heroes campaign?

You keep bringing up The Spirit, but he was

1) Not published as a Comic Book but as a Sunday Newspaper Suplement for an ADULT public
2) He's Noir and Pulp, not sure he fits into superheroes
3) Sure, Ebony White, but what about Detective Grey? (You see I happen to have bought and read it when it was published outside of newspapers.)

You're taking a point of data and pretending it's the whole, now you can also cite the WWII comics, when they were being used as war propaganda, yes, those exist, so what?

Contrary to what many want to believe Comic Books weren't like The Watchmen.

Again, most superheroes weren't racists or sexists, heck they worked with Wonder Woman.

Furthermore, you're obviating or forgetting other black characters, I'll cite a few:

Lothar from Mandrake the Magician
Red Mask
All Negro (sic) Comics, written, drawn and published by black people. Look it up, you'll find some interesting stuff.

So, again, go play as you wish, but stop pushing the "If you're not making your superheroes istophobes you're playing it wrong because presentism!"

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2023, 04:49:46 PM
Again, most superheroes weren't racists or sexists, heck they worked with Wonder Woman.

Furthermore, you're obviating or forgetting other black characters, I'll cite a few:

Lothar from Mandrake the Magician
Red Mask
All Negro (sic) Comics, written, drawn and published by black people. Look it up, you'll find some interesting stuff.

So, again, go play as you wish, but stop pushing the "If you're not making your superheroes istophobes you're playing it wrong because presentism!"

So here is Lothar, described as "Mandrake's giant black servant".



As implied in the right image, Golden Age Lothar speaks in broken English, like "Do us have to?" and "Me smell smoke."

I'd assert that having original Mandrake and Lothar in a Golden Age heroes RPG would be roughly as controversial as The Spirit and Ebony.

I had a character like this in an old old pulp adventure (HERO System) that I ran several times at conventions, named "Gadura, the Malaysian Mammoth". As a con game, I offset this with added background that Gadura is actually quite intelligent as well as well-spoken in his native Malay language - and could speak in that with one of the other PCs. So that subverted the stereotype.

Quote from: jhkim on August 23, 2023, 07:43:25 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2023, 04:49:46 PM
Again, most superheroes weren't racists or sexists, heck they worked with Wonder Woman.

Furthermore, you're obviating or forgetting other black characters, I'll cite a few:

Lothar from Mandrake the Magician
Red Mask
All Negro (sic) Comics, written, drawn and published by black people. Look it up, you'll find some interesting stuff.

So, again, go play as you wish, but stop pushing the "If you're not making your superheroes istophobes you're playing it wrong because presentism!"

So here is Lothar, described as "Mandrake's giant black servant".



As implied in the right image, Golden Age Lothar speaks in broken English, like "Do us have to?" and "Me smell smoke."

I'd assert that having original Mandrake and Lothar in a Golden Age heroes RPG would be roughly as controversial as The Spirit and Ebony.

I had a character like this in an old old pulp adventure (HERO System) that I ran several times at conventions, named "Gadura, the Malaysian Mammoth". As a con game, I offset this with added background that Gadura is actually quite intelligent as well as well-spoken in his native Malay language - and could speak in that with one of the other PCs. So that subverted the stereotype.

Tell me you never read Mandrake without telling me you never read Mandrake.

Lothar is a prince among his people, he was captured by slavers and rescued by Mandrake, then Lothar swears to serve him, he's Mandrake's bodyguard, valet, man friday and friend. It's a guy from Africa, that learned English as a second language and without school, do you think he should speak proper posh British English?

The problem you face is that you're aerguing about this stuff with someone deeply rooted into the culture who doesn't need to go to wikipedia or to some MariSue or other leftist publication to make a point.

Again, go play as you like, make it 2023 seattle for all I care, just stop with the browbeating people who don't play like you.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2023, 07:52:33 PM
Tell me you never read Mandrake without telling me you never read Mandrake.

Lothar is a prince among his people, he was captured by slavers and rescued by Mandrake, then Lothar swears to serve him, he's Mandrake's bodyguard, valet, man friday and friend. It's a guy from Africa, that learned English as a second language and without school, do you think he should speak proper posh British English?

The problem you face is that you're aerguing about this stuff with someone deeply rooted into the culture who doesn't need to go to wikipedia or to some MariSue or other leftist publication to make a point.

Lothar being a prince who goes to being loyal manservant and bodyguard isn't breaking out of the box as far as stereotypes.

Mandrake wasn't regular reading of mine - though I knew of him, but I've read a fair amount of Golden Age comics: notably Terry & the Pirates, Tintin, The Spirit, Batman, and Wonder Woman, among others. The images I get obviously come from web search, but my general impressions of Golden Age comics come from reading the actual source material. I don't have any Mandrake comics in print here at home, but here are some complete comics featuring him from the Golden Age, for example:

https://pappysgoldenage.blogspot.com/2015/05/number-1739-warning-werewolves.html

https://pappysgoldenage.blogspot.com/2020/06/number-2436-mandrake-lothar-molly-and.html

Would you say that these are representative examples of Mandrake and Lothar from the Golden Age?

Quote from: jhkim on August 23, 2023, 04:08:55 PM

Quote from: tenbones on August 23, 2023, 03:42:32 PM
No. You'd only make players that are ignorant with acquired conditioning uncomfortable.

Anyone that is self-aware enough to understand history and is not so narcissistic to project their own uninformed feelings into a game about make-believe is probably not really suited for adult games. If that's the kind of game you want to run for those kinds of people, then you're fine.

I'm not being sarcastic either - I do understand running games appropriate for the players, like children. But adults that are effectively, emotionally stunted, I don't have time for. Your mileage may vary.

I'm not sure how much we're disagreeing. Independent of your judgement of them, would you agree that many such players exist - who would find it off-putting to have The Spirit and Ebony in a Golden Age heroes campaign?

I acknowledge ignorant immature adult dumbasses exist. No I do not care about their feelings. I do not have those kinds of people in my orbit. They offer nothing of value to me, personally. But by all means they should find someone that will tolerate them at their table.

You are *ignoring* that contextually I do not find The Spirit (as my collection of Eisner's work will attest to) nor Ebony, "off putting". They're a product of their time and while it might be not the best representation of an idea, I don't find them offensive. No more than I hold other cultures standards from 4-days or 400-years ago offensive to me. I'm an adult.

Do you think Bruce Wayne was a pedophile? Or that Wonderwoman is a bondage enthusiast? More importantly - do you think it has any impact on the reality of grown adults?

Quote from: tenbones on August 24, 2023, 01:58:58 AM
You are *ignoring* that contextually I do not find The Spirit (as my collection of Eisner's work will attest to) nor Ebony, "off putting". They're a product of their time and while it might be not the best representation of an idea, I don't find them offensive. No more than I hold other cultures standards from 4-days or 400-years ago offensive to me. I'm an adult.

I am not ignoring that. Your opinions are your own, and I'm not claiming anything about your opinions or reactions.

To set this as a more specific scene --

Let's say there's a Golden Age heroes RPG event at a convention, where players can create their own characters. Let's say I create a sidekick character like Ebony White as my PC. I play him as he is portrayed in the original comics - not better or worse, but representatively.

I don't know how you (tenbones) would react if you were also in that game. However, I do think that some of other players are likely to find it off-putting.