Quote from: johnsnead;454603We are funded (at $5014) as of today.  More money would be awesome in that it would get me some advance payment for this book, but one way or another, Eldritch Skies is happening and everyone will be getting their copies (likely sometime around December).

I'm glad that things worked out funding-wise.

I really like the fact you are taking into account other aspects than the horror angle. I particularly like the thought given to the aspect of wonder in the Lovecraftian setting.

For more info about Eldritch Skies, here's a podcast interview Mike Lafferty of Vigilance Press recently did about Eldritch Skies.

Quote from: RPGPundit;446504That looks fucking awesome.

RPGPundit

It looks neat, but it's not exactly based on Lovecraft's work outside of one small quote in "He" that I can recall. And even then that vision of the future of Manhattan was more to play off of the imagery borrowed from Santayana and Van Wyck Brooks and deployed in the narrative.

I'd be down with Lovecraftian science fiction if it were actually based on Lovecraft (n.b: I haven't had time to see the link in Dan's OP, though I will when I get home). As has been noted the sense of awe should be there -- or, more correctly, cosmic realization as per the shock central to Lovecraft's aesthetic doctrine of cosmicism. Even that would take some work, however, since Lovecraft wasn't precisely shy with his thoughts on the burgeoning genre of science fiction. Here's the second paragraph from his "Some Notes on Interplanetary Fiction":

QuoteThe present commentator does not believe that the idea of space-travel and other worlds in inherently unsuited to literary use. It is, rather, his opinion that the omni-present cheapening and misuse of that idea is the result of a widespread misconception; a misconception which extends to other departments of weird and science fiction as well. This fallacy is the notion that any account of impossible, improbable, or inconceivable phenomena can be successfully presented as a commonplace narrative of objective acts and conventional emotions in the ordinary tone and manner of popular romance. Such a presentation will often "get by" with immature readers, but it will never approach even remotely the field of aesthetic merit.

That's Collected Essays Volume 2: Literary Criticism Ed. S. T. Joshi. New York: Hippocampus Press, 2004. 178.

The problem is that most gaming would hinge upon at least some elements of popular romance, and that would destabilize the whole project from the get-go. I can only think of a handful of sci-fi mythos stories that work well -- and none of them by name (the one that always comes to mind is the vignette of the astronauts who arrive at a point in space where there's nothing, literally nothing, just the black void between stars). The rest, and the vast majority of the games, are just... ehn.

Of course, I am biased. I'm a Lovecraft purist and even how most games of Call of Cthulhu are run piss me off. Don't even get me started on my own CoC GM who draws the majority of his influence from Brian Goddamned Lumley.

Okay, I've watched the video. It could be good. I'm a bit hesitant about the pulp overtones, though, since HPL (in the same essay I quoted above) argues that interplanetary fiction of aesthetic or artistic merit would never be acceptable to the pulp editors or audiences.

Don't know. They really don't give enough information in the video or the text below it to make a judgment. I'd read through it, though, even if I ended up hating it.

Quote from: Géza Echs;455480Okay, I've watched the video. It could be good. I'm a bit hesitant about the pulp overtones, though, since HPL (in the same essay I quoted above) argues that interplanetary fiction of aesthetic or artistic merit would never be acceptable to the pulp editors or audiences.

Don't know. They really don't give enough information in the video or the text below it to make a judgment. I'd read through it, though, even if I ended up hating it.

I have notes in the storytelling chapter on running the campaign from everything from an all out pulp to a grim-n-gritty manner.  Have you read my essay on Lovecraftian SF (from the book's introduction)?

What I tried to do was go far more with Lovecraft's idea of a vast cosmos and deep time rather than many later authors ideas of immediate doom and the addition of more horror story tropes.  The two Lovecraft stories that ES is closest to are The Shadow Out of Time & At the Mountains of Maddness.

Ultimately, I'd call Eldritch Skies SF both because it's a game with aliens and space travel, and more importantly because I tried to create the world of 2030 by extrapolating from the events in Lovecraft's stories and fitting the result into a rough outline of world history (which increasingly diverged over time).  

Here's a timeline of recent history:

Modern Time Line

1928: The FBI discovers the deep one and deep one hybrids of Innsmouth Massachusetts.

1931: The Miskatonic Antarctic Expedition discovers the elder one city.

1947: A small mi-go ore transport crashes in Roswell New Mexico, the wreckage is recovered by the US military.

1948: The US and UK governments release limited amounts of information, including a few photos of the elder one city in the Antarctic and the great race city in the Australian desert. Both governments deny the existence of any more recent contact with aliens.

1949: Deep ones from the Atlantic city of Y'ha-nthlei make contact with the UN Security Council. This meeting led to the secret 1950 treaty between the UN Security Council and the deep ones.

1956: The UN Security Council accidentally discovers a yithian spy and makes contact with the great race of Yith.

1958: The first US Mars expedition visits the red planet using a hyperspatial gateway.

1959: The third US Mars expedition vanishes and are presumed dead when their attempt to return to Earth fails. The US cancels future attempts to use hyperspatial gateways for space travel.

1960: The UN Security Council forms the UN Office of Paranormal Security (OPS) to deal with mythos derived threats and problems.

1966: US Astronauts achieve the first public moon landing, in an advanced rocket propelled by monatomic hydrogen.

1967: The existence of psychic powers is publically confirmed, but their potential is downplayed.

1969: US and Soviet astronauts on the moon work together to return to Earth using a sorcerously created hyperspatial gateway and then claim that they discovered this gateway in the alien ruins they discovered.

1973: The first permanent Lunar base is established at the site of the great race ruins on the moon.

1981: Soviet cosmonauts secretly visit Mars using a mechanically created hyperspatial gateway.

1982: US astronauts return to Mars in a hyperspatial spacecraft.

1984: A joint US-OPS mission established a top-secret long-term base on Mars to study alien ruins there.

1985: First contact with the intelligences of Europa leaves 5 of the 7 members of the first Europa expedition dead as their ship is badly damaged when attempting to land on Europa.  The OPS places Europa off limits for all human-made vessels.

1986: The USSR collapses due to political and economic troubles.

1987: After the fall of the USSR, information about the existence of psychic technologies, recent alien contact, hyperspatial technologies, and advanced space travel all become public, rocking public confidence in most of the nations of the first world.

1992: Psychic contact made with the mysterious Europans by a team of psychics sent in a mission to orbit Europa.

1994: The Gillman-Hawking hyperspatial drive, also known as the "dragonfly drive" gives humanity the freedom of the stars.

1996: The Enterprise, the first crewed starship, visits Alpha Centauri and returns safely.

2002: The first extrasolar colony is founded on Canyon.  Also, the introduction of the first mobile link revolutionizes personal electronics.

2012: Moonbeast raiders attack a mining station on Epsilon Eridani II and kill or capture the inhabitants.

2015: Moonbeast raiders attack the colony on Emerald and are driven off.

2017: The ancient Thurian colony on Galatea I is discovered by the OPS.

2021: The UN declares a state of war between humanity and the moonbeasts. Given the infrequency of moonbeast attacks and the fact that humanity has not found any moonbeast colonies, this declaration is largely symbolic.

2028: Brazilian space explorers discover the exotic planet Prodígio, inhabited by a species that seems on the verge of transcendence.

Quote from: johnsnead;455502I have notes in the storytelling chapter on running the campaign from everything from an all out pulp to a grim-n-gritty manner.

What are some of the pulpy aspects of the game?

This is sounding more and more interesting as time goes on. Good luck with it, John.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;455508What are some of the pulpy aspects of the game?

Mostly this is designed to come out in play.  In addition to storytelling advice - I've also included three options for using Drama Points -

• Pulp (standard CinUni Drama Points)
• Cinematic (reduced power Drama Points designed to simulate SF along the order of Babylon 5 or Stargate SG-1)
• Gritty (no Drama Points)

So, if you use standard Drama Points and have OPS agents be the shining heroes of the spaceways, you're playing pulp.

Quote from: Géza Echs;455478Don't even get me started on my own CoC GM who draws the majority of his influence from Brian Goddamned Lumley.

Oh man! My condolences...

Quote from: Dan Davenport;455508What are some of the pulpy aspects of the game?

That whole timeline sounds pretty pulpy to me... kinda Stargate-ish, to my non-Stargate-watching sensibilities.

Why do the Deep Ones contact the U.N. Security Council?
Just curious.

Quote from: Simlasa;455533Why do the Deep Ones contact the U.N. Security Council?

Because humanity had begun exploring the ocean depths, and were going to encounter Deep One cities in the near future.

Quote from: johnsnead;455540Because humanity had begun exploring the ocean depths, and were going to encounter Deep One cities in the near future.

I admit that I haven't read your introduction (sorry, I haven't had time today and I'm writing this on my way to bed at three in the morning). The timeline sounds interesting, but, well, a bit generic. I mean no insult by that -- I suppose it's better to have a thinly fleshed out timeline than an overdeveloped metaploty timeline. But I am concerned about some of the Lovecraft elements and how they're deployed, especially the Yithian involvement and the Deep Ones contacting the UN. Why, in-universe, would they care? Why would they be capable of caring? These are intelligences of vast and cool magnitudes, the Yithians especially, who have literally no Earthly reason to be interested in the activities of humans outside of how humans can be used to advance their own agendas (whatever those might be). They're not far-flung tribes of long-lost humans reintegrated into the flock after so long apart.

Equally, what does "transcendence" mean in-universe? If it means something metaphysical, are you then rejecting Lovecraft's demonstrable materialism as expressed in his later master works?

Finally, and I admit this is super nit picky, but why are Moon Beasts galavanting around the cosmos? Shouldn't they be relegated to the Dreamlands (or more correctly, as S. T. Joshi has rather persuasively argued, the time of antiquity on plain old Earth)?

All that being said, what you mentioned just before the timeline shows promise, and I'd be interested in at least checking out the game if not outright buying and playing / running it. Working on Lovecraft and other weird fiction writers professionally has left me a bit of a hyper-critical mess when it comes to the more rigid and aesthetically unchallenging "Cthulhu Mythos" that arose with and after Derleth's hijacking. So, my annoying purism aside, nothing personal.


Edit: Any particular reason you don't make mention of the Mi-Go or the outpost on Yuggoth? Also, did you consider incorporating the (non-Lovecraft but still kind of neat) idea of "the great white space" for extraterrestrial FTL travel?

Quote from: Simlasa;455533Oh man! My condolences...

You have no idea. Particularly since it's a Dreamlands-focused campaign.

Quote from: johnsnead;455522Mostly this is designed to come out in play.  In addition to storytelling advice - I've also included three options for using Drama Points -

• Pulp (standard CinUni Drama Points)
• Cinematic (reduced power Drama Points designed to simulate SF along the order of Babylon 5 or Stargate SG-1)
• Gritty (no Drama Points)

So, if you use standard Drama Points and have OPS agents be the shining heroes of the spaceways, you're playing pulp.

Ah, gotcha.

Do you see this as one of the main points of difference between Eldritch Skies and The Void (formerly Cthonian Stars)? The latter sounds like it's going to be more investigative.

Quote from: Géza Echs;455555I admit that I haven't read your introduction (sorry, I haven't had time today and I'm writing this on my way to bed at three in the morning). The timeline sounds interesting, but, well, a bit generic. I mean no insult by that -- I suppose it's better to have a thinly fleshed out timeline than an overdeveloped metaploty timeline.

The timeline is part of Chapter 1 - The Eldritch Past and Mythos Present, 20,000 words of setting material that also includes 8,000 words of material on the history of the Earth (both in deep time and recent).  The timeline is merely a reference, there's a lot to go with it.  

QuoteBut I am concerned about some of the Lovecraft elements and how they're deployed, especially the Yithian involvement and the Deep Ones contacting the UN. Why, in-universe, would they care? Why would they be capable of caring? These are intelligences of vast and cool magnitudes, the Yithians especially, who have literally no Earthly reason to be interested in the activities of humans outside of how humans can be used to advance their own agendas (whatever those might be). They're not far-flung tribes of long-lost humans reintegrated into the flock after so long apart.

The Yithians trade very limited amounts of info in return for improved access.  It's possible to detect Yithian possession (since psychic powers are openly used in the setting).  Their existence remains secret, but they get access to essentially everything they want in return for what amounts (to them) to trivial amounts of help.  

The Deep Ones are a different case - they started getting worried in the 19th century with far more sea traffic, and then submarines worried them, especially combined with the bombing of Devil's Reef and then the detonation of nuclear weapons.  The Deep Ones contacted humanity because they were worried that they could end up on the losing end of a war.  The Yithians  and Mi-Go have technology far in advanced of humanity. However, the Deep Ones do not - they're well adapted for life in the deep sea, and could use sorcery to put up a good fight, but were well aware they could easily lose a war.

QuoteEqually, what does "transcendence" mean in-universe? If it means something metaphysical, are you then rejecting Lovecraft's demonstrable materialism as expressed in his later master works?

Nope.  Here you go:

Deep Time And The Fate of Intelligent Species
From a human perspective, much of the history of the galaxy seems quite strange. Modern human civilization is less than 6,000 years old, and the human species itself is no more than a quarter of a million years old and yet there are records of intelligent species that have persisted for hundreds of millions or even billions of years. Part of this disparity is due to the fact that human civilization is actually far older than commonly known. However, the previous civilization from the Thurian Age was destroyed by the most recent ice age, which erased all obvious traces of its existence. Similarly, many other species have gone through periods of advanced civilization followed by eras where this civilization collapsed due to war, natural disasters, or equally severe technological disasters. These cycles of progress and collapse can continue almost indefinitely.

The extreme longevity of some species is in part due to the fact that, like the elder ones, they have have used genetic engineering, nanotechnology, and other advanced technologies to alter their bodies into forms that are ageless and exceedingly difficult to kill. As a result, individuals can live for many thousands or even many tens of thousands of years, which provides an exceedingly strong stabilizing force for any civilization. A species may not change much over the course of half a million years, if this is the average lifespan of a member of the species. However, the full truth about the history of galactic civilization is somewhat more complex. Intelligent life that survives to develop advanced technology can have one of four possible fates.

Extinction
The unfortunate fact about most species that manage to develop advanced technology is that they become extinct within a few thousand years of developing these technologies. Some are victims of alien attack or are destroyed by invaders from hyperspace, others fall victim to natural disasters, but the majority destroy themselves through war or technological accident, typically involving some form of hyperspatial technology. Some species manage to barely survive these catastrophes and eventually regain their lost technology and civilization, at which point that reborn civilization faces that same four options.

Many intelligent species have evolved in the galaxy, but the majority are now extinct. Everywhere in the galaxy that human explorers travel, they discover both living worlds that used to be home to a long extinct civilization and worlds that are blasted and ruined by the disaster that ended both intelligent life and most or all other life on that planet. Planets that used to be verdant living worlds now have no atmosphere or are rings of shattered fragments. On the least damaged, life experienced a massive extinction and took tens of millions of years to recover.

Transcendence
Almost all of those few species that do not destroy themselves vanish within a few thousand years of developing advanced technology. Their exact fate is unknown and perhaps unknowable to species that have not also made this step. Most researchers believe that these species transfer their consciousness into hyperspace, where they become immortal, hyper-intelligent beings. A few scholars believe that the entire species either becomes part of an existing Other God (see p. XX) or creates a new such being, but this theory is no more than conjecture.

Regardless of their exact fate, the species never again has contact with the physical world, and that all information on this transcendence asserts that it is a wondrous transformation. Unfortunately, this process of transcendence is quite difficult and often very risky. As a result, numerous species have destroyed themselves making this attempt. Those that succeed usually leave behind worlds that are completely intact, but devoid of all intelligent life. More than 95% of all intelligent species follow one of the two above paths – extinction or transcendence, and humanity has discovered dozens of ruined worlds and a smaller number of empty ones. However, there are two other, less common options.

Stasis
Eventually, due to the limitations of their brains and senses, every species that does not transcend reaches the end of science and technology. They create no important new scientific or technological breakthroughs, because they have learned all of the science and discovered all of the technology that their brains are capable of conceiving of. The species may continue to gather more data and learn more of the history of the universe and the beings that live within it, but this knowledge no longer leads to new theories or new technologies.

The severity of this limitation varies from one species to another, and is usually encountered within 5,000 years of the species developing advanced technology. At this point, the only paths to new knowledge and new technology involve either transcendence or making use of science and technologies of aliens with different cognitive limitations. This second approach is fraught with risk because any alien science and technology that can help a static species' capabilities is by its nature beyond the comprehension of the species that borrows or steals it. Attempting to work with alien science or technology has resulting in the extinction of quite a number of intelligent species. However, using alien science and technology has also helped a few species transcend.

Some species survive, but do not transcend, either because of they do not wish to take the risks involved, or because of some lack of ability or drive to transcend. The reasons are not known, but a few radical theories claim that contact with the legendary Great Old One Nyarlathotep (see p. XX) is in some way necessary for a species to transcend. The elder ones are a perfect example of beings that lacked the will to transcend, while and the yaddithi (see p. XX) are learning that despite their best efforts, they may be incapable of transcending without help.

Most species that do not transcend learn to modify their bodies to be exceedingly durable and enduring, becoming nearly immortal. This personal immortality almost always results in the species and their civilization also becoming extremely long-lived. Most species that endure in stasis avoid adopting or studying alien technology or science because of the dangers of doing so. Species like the elder ones or the mi-go endured for literally hundreds of millions of years by honing their bodies and their civilizations to the point that they are both inherently stable. However, the price for this stability is quite literally stasis.

Art styles and popular tastes may change slightly, but the species as a whole changes very little, either mentally or physically. If a species is either unwilling or unable to transcend, the choice is then between survival and extinction. As a result, static species usually become exceptionally conservative. They typically limit the degree of their biological variability. Members of the species who alter their bodies or minds outside of accepted limited are either stopped, destroyed, or exiled. Such exiles often go on to either destroy themselves or transcend, but the bulk of the species can persist for a billion or more years. For example, the great race of Yith has managed to persist as a species in stasis by mentally transferring their consciousnesses into a series of drastically different alien bodies for almost one billion years.

Few species reach stasis, and fewer still maintain it for more than a few million years, but those that do usually become important species in the galaxy simply by virtue of their great age, the knowledge they have gathered, and the fact that they have had the time to explore and colonize large portions of the galaxy. However, no species lasts forever. The elder ones are one of the most ancient physical species, and their last remnants seem to be in the process of going extinct. This species is likely be vanish within another hundred million years.

Partial Transcendence
This option is by far the rarest and also the most terrible. In their effort to transfer themselves into hyperspace, the species partially transcends, becoming practically immortal and far more powerful, both individually and collectively, than they previously were. However, instead of abandoning the physical universe and dwelling solely in the exotic dimensions of hyperspace, the species maintains at least some form of limited connection to the physical universe. No one knows if some species attempt to transcend while still holding onto some connection to the physical universe, or if partial transcendence is always the result of a failed attempt at transcendence. Regardless of the answer, partial transcendence always carries a price. The species becomes dependent upon the physical world and its inhabitants. Most of these species must feed upon the psychic energy of physical beings to survive. A few feed solely upon non-sentient creatures, but the vast majority must feed upon the psychic energies of intelligent beings.

The degree and details of their transcendence varies from one species to another. Some species, like the flying polyps, have just barely transcended. They have few permanent connections to hyperspace and their bodies remain mostly part of the physical world. As a result, they can subsist upon simple minds and consume most of their energy in a more conventional fashion. However, greater degrees of transcendence are more common.

The few humans who know of these partially transcended beings call them the Great Old Ones. In this state, the species can persist for many billions of years, since the individual members are very difficult to destroy and can only die if they are deliberately destroyed by energies that are almost impossible for a non-transcended species to generate or understand. If placed in a sufficiently hostile environment or deprived of food, members of a partially transcended species suffer pain and hunger, but will not die. At most, they eventually shift mostly into the furthest depths of hyperspace and enter a near-timeless sort of hibernation that automatically ends when their psychic nourishment again becomes available.

While these species are always brilliant and are capable of thoughts and perceptions impossible to non-transcendent beings, they are also changeless. Partially transcended beings seem incapable of altering their fundamental nature, and none of them have ever been known to fully transcend.

These species haunt the galaxy for hundreds of millions of years, becoming the enemies of all other partially transcendent species, because they compete for resources. More importantly, these species universally consider physical beings to be either food, vermin, or potential sources of amusement. While some primitive or power hungry non-transcendent species may worship partially transcendent beings, hoping for power in return, more advanced and sensible non-transcendent species do their best to either avoid or repel partially transcended beings they encounter because they are vastly powerful and are capable of wiping out entire civilizations through their psychic feeding.

Some partially transcendent species are interested in the physical universe as more than just a source of food. The worst seek to conquer worlds, build cities, or enslave entire species of physical beings. The cthulhoids (see p. XX) are an example of this sort of species. Other partially transcendent beings have strange and indirect interactions with the physical world. They feed upon psychic energies while only ever appearing in ways that cause those who encounter them to have no clue that they are intelligent or even beings. The psychic infection known as Hastur is an example of this type of exotic being.

QuoteFinally, and I admit this is super nit picky, but why are Moon Beasts galavanting around the cosmos? Shouldn't they be relegated to the Dreamlands (or more correctly, as S. T. Joshi has rather persuasively argued, the time of antiquity on plain old Earth)?

In ES, the Dreamlands is a psychic realm - the human dreamlands connect to alien dreamlands via a psychic version of outer space (where the Dreamlands moon and suchlike reside), and other species can attempt to visit or attack via that path.  THe moonbeasts tried this and failed in the 1930s.

QuoteEdit: Any particular reason you don't make mention of the Mi-Go or the outpost on Yuggoth? Also, did you consider incorporating the (non-Lovecraft but still kind of neat) idea of "the great white space" for extraterrestrial FTL travel?

As for the Mi-Go - take a look at the entry for 1947. They're most definitely present in the setting.

Wow, John, that was a lot of information. Thanks very much! I've had a taxing day (in both Mythos and non-Mythos contexts no less) so I'm not going to read through it right now, but you really took a strong swing at my questions and I appreciate that. I'll read it through tomorrow but I think no matter what you've earned yourself a sale.