Quote from: Hastur T. FannonIncidentally, have you read "Ecclesiastes"?

Yeah, though I don't remember it well.

My point on the mystics was that they still found meaning, not the meaning perhaps they would have wished but meaning for all that.  The point of existentialism is that there is no meaning to be found.

That said, many existentialists did go on then to talk to how one lives in light of that fact, just as earlier philosophers dealing with the same issue have done.

Mysticism relies in part on the existence of something beyond what we see, but the evidence increasingly is that there ain't no such something out there.

Quote from: blakkieYou boldly state it is false. Like Setti you refuse to entertain the possibility that it is true. If you refuse to believe in the possibility of the supernatural of course it isn't scary.

What's supernatural about Cuthulu?

Quote from: blakkieEDIT: You refuse to believe in the power of emotion to overcome you. But at one point you didn't believe it could reach you at all? Perhaps you once again underestimate?

Possibly.  I'm a high-functioning autistic so my emotional responses aren't that of a baseline.

However, my responses to existential horror do seem similar to that of mystics from all sorts of traditions which gives me something approaching confidence

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonWhat's supernatural about Cuthulu?

Nice rebuttal, seriously.

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonSure you'll never be the same again, but it's a functional insanity as opposed to the gibber-gibber, underpants on head and pencils up nose, my old man's a mushroom insanity.

Oh yes, definately.  That's why I'm glad I chose to use Burning Wheel and it's Emotional Attribute mechanic for this.

First you corrupt yourself. Then you corrupt yourself a little bit more. Then you can do magic. You aren't wholy human anymore, but screw it you are powerful! And as a bonus what would drive a normal, uninitiated person totally underpant on head and pencils up the nose mad or affects you a little bit and actually makes you more powerful. Then you corrupt yourself a bit more. More powerful! And a little more. And a little more. And then, one day you go too far. And you corrupt your mind past the point of functioning to drive your body. Emotional Attribute = 10.

"Gone!  It's all go-o-one!  All of it's gone.  Bye-bye!  Whoo-hoo! See ya!"

Quote from: BalbinusYeah, though I don't remember it well.

It's refrain is "Meaningless, meaningless - all is meaningless" (depending on the translation "meaningless" can be replaced by "futile", "pointless" or, traditionally, "vanity")

Quote from: BalbinusMy point on the mystics was that they still found meaning, not the meaning perhaps they would have wished but meaning for all that.  The point of existentialism is that there is no meaning to be found.

The mystics found a meaning that was incomprehensible. ("the Way that can be spoken of is not the true Way") - how does a meaning that cannot be understood differ from one that doesn't exist?

Quote from: BalbinusMysticism relies in part on the existence of something beyond what we see

Are you sure? As a Christian I can say, with absolute 100% confidence, that God does not exist.  In the other words, there is not way you can apply the concept of "existance" to the concept of "God".  That was Tillich's great breakthrough (he was an existentialist btw), though he was only systemising what the mystics of the via negativa already knew

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonIt's refrain is "Meaningless, meaningless - all is meaningless" (depending on the translation "meaningless" can be replaced by "futile", "pointless" or, traditionally, "vanity")

True, but they find a bit of meaning by the end don't they?  That said, it is powerful I entirely agree, and it does speak still very relevantly to the human condition.

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonThe mystics found a meaning that was incomprehensible. ("the Way that can be spoken of is not the true Way") - how does a meaning that cannot be understood differ from one that doesn't exist?

Simple, it exists, a meaning that we cannot understand to me is very different to no meaning at all.

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonAre you sure? As a Christian I can say, with absolute 100% confidence, that God does not exist.  In the other words, there is not way you can apply the concept of "existance" to the concept of "God".  That was Tillich's great breakthrough (he was an existentialist btw), though he was only systemising what the mystics of the via negativa already knew

I don't know Tillich, but I am familiar with this concept.  That said, I'm sure of nothing but my own uncertainty.

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonWhat's supernatural about Cuthulu?

Cthulhu is himself pretty minor.  Naming the game "Call of Cthulhu" always seemed a misnomer to me.  Like calling the foodchain in the ocean "Gulp of the Guppie". He isn't a cthonic force.

Supernatural - unexplainable by natural law or phenomena

That's where you have to go. Oh sure, in the age of splitting atoms and string theory you have to go further than before to get there. Lovecraft often skirted into sci fi territory at times. Sufficently advanced tech and all that. Remember that the theory of General Relativity had already been published by that point.

QuotePossibly.  I'm a high-functioning autistic so my emotional responses aren't that of a baseline.

However, my responses to existential horror do seem similar to that of mystics from all sorts of traditions which gives me something approaching confidence

Oh yes. Mystism plays into Lovecraft. Mad arab with a skin bound tome anyone?!  But what if the ones you know about hadn't gone far enough yet? They hadn't reached the limit? They hadn't had their Budda momment. And the ones that you don't know about that did have their Budda momment, what if the happy-ending for Budda was a lie?

P.S. I'm not saying I think it likely. I'm just saying I am willing to to run with it and see where it leads. Because this is all fiction.

Incidentally, the "supernatural" would be the part you are having a hard time suspending your belief for.  Going mad with the knowledge. Unexplainable by natural law or phenomena. Isn't that your argument, that it can't be explained because what you know gives you confidence otherwise?

Idea of negative theology has been around since the days of Augustine and St. John of the Cross.  It's not recent by any stretch of the imagination... it's also a complete cop out.

It allows you to throw words around like "existence", "benevolence" and all the other stuff you want associated with God but because he "doesn't exist" you don't have to suffer any of the logical or conceptual problems that come with using those concepts.

So you ask how it is that a benevolent and omnipotent God can tolerate evil in the world seeing as all three of those ideas aren't logically compatible?  easy, if God existed as omnipotent and benevolent there would indeed be a problem but in fact he "exists" as an "omnipotent" "being"{ who is "benevolent" with all of these ideas being defined essentially as identical to the non quotation-marked versions of the words but without any of the philosophical downsides.

It's the metaphysicist's cop out, modern philosophers use it too.  If your concept is found to be unworkable, just come up with a new term that does the work you want with none of the philosophical downsides.  It's the main reason why metaphysics is an utter crock of shit.

Quote from: blakkieIncidentally, the "supernatural" would be the part you are having a hard time suspending your belief for.  Going mad with the knowledge. Unexplainable by natural law or phenomena.

Thanks for identifying one of the things that bothers me.  The Great Race of Yith, the Elder Things and the Fungi from Yoggoth (among others) just treat all the Mythos stuff as science and deal with it without going nuts.  Why can't humanity?

Quote from: blakkieIsn't that your argument, that it can't be explained because what you know gives you confidence otherwise?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're saying here

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIdea of negative theology has been around since the days of Augustine and St. John of the Cross. It's not recent by any stretch of the imagination

It's been around for a lot longer than that: "The Tao that can be spoken of is not the true Tao."

Quote from: Mr. Analyticalit's also a complete cop out.

I'm not sure it's any more of a cop out than going "the horror, the horror" and sticking pencils up your nose

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonThanks for identifying one of the things that bothers me.  The Great Race of Yith, the Elder Things and the Fungi from Yoggoth (among others) just treat all the Mythos stuff as science and deal with it without going nuts.  Why can't humanity?

Quote from: blakkieIsn't that your argument, that it can't be explained because what you know gives you confidence otherwise?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're saying here.

Your first part answers the last.  To paraphrase (and correct me if I'm off) you say "It doesn't make sense that you'd go insane. Just treat it as science; hard, cold, and rational. Done, no pencils-up-the-nose."

Cthulhu isn't the really supernatural part, Lovecraft isn't a bug hunt. The supernatural, what can't be explained by your, or my, understanding of natural law or phenomena, is the going insane part.  The effect on a person's mind is. The effect of merely reading some words in a book or looking at the arcane symbol of the yellow king. It doesn't make sense to you? It doesn't make sense to me! It isn't suppose to.

EDIT:

QuoteIt's been around for a lot longer than that: "The Tao that can be spoken of is not the true Tao."

Yup. And one day Lao Tse went off on a journey and was never heard from again. Wonder what really happened to the poor bugger?

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonI'm not sure it's any more of a cop out than going "the horror, the horror" and sticking pencils up your nose

  I agree that it's a bit of a cop out but the people who do the equivalent of going "the horror! the horror!" are trying to capture the feeling of existential horror and despair, they're not trying to discuss the nature of the universe is a rigorous manner.  If all you want to do is capture the feeling of god then going "he exists but he doesn't... exist" is fine.  Meanwhile if you're trying to make a substantial philosophical point then it's a massive cop out.

Quote from: blakkieThe supernatural, what can't be explained by your, or my, understanding of natural law or phenomena, is the going insane part.  The effect on a person's mind is. The effect of merely reading some words in a book or looking at the arcane symbol of the yellow king. It doesn't make sense to you? It doesn't make sense to me! It isn't suppose to.

Ok, I think I'm getting it.  Trying to grasp quantum theory, general relativity or even the Trinity can send you a bit funny (and obsessively studying any of these things can be a symptom of mental illness...) and I can certainly understand PTSD and how it could be made worse if the things trying to kill you had entirely too many arms

But human beings are adaptable.  We'd just call them squid-heads or el blobbo's and after a few years they'd be just another threat

To be honest, if the Chaosium CoC allowed you to regain SAN at a faster rate rather than presuming that every investigator is going to go nuts, I wouldn't have a problem with it

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIf all you want to do is capture the feeling of god then going "he exists but he doesn't... exist" is fine. Meanwhile if you're trying to make a substantial philosophical point then it's a massive cop out.

Sure, but theology is just "words about God", trying to figure out what we mean when we say the word and trying to make sense of humanity's experience of the transcendent.

I'm wondering if there could be a parallel between the mystic and Mythos cultist.  Instead of instinctively recoiling from existential horror, the mystic chooses to worship it instead, just like the cultist choses to worship Azathoth.  Religious awe does incorporate an element of terror.  As an Orthodox priest of my acquaintance put it "If you do not feel a sense of vertigo when you say the word 'God' then you have not named Him"

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonOk, I think I'm getting it.  Trying to grasp quantum theory, general relativity or even the Trinity can send you a bit funny (and obsessively studying any of these things can be a symptom of mental illness...) and I can certainly understand PTSD and how it could be made worse if the things trying to kill you had entirely too many arms

Yeah, that's the track. :win: Now turn it up a notch, think a turnip farmer from the Dark Ages suddenly gaining the knowledge of modern physics. And then keep turning it up.

QuoteBut human beings are adaptable.  We'd just call them squid-heads or el blobbo's and after a few years they'd be just another threat

After a few years, yup. We eventually accept the reality we are presented with. If word got around. That's why you gotta keep it stuble and on the edges and out of sight.

QuoteTo be honest, if the Chaosium CoC allowed you to regain SAN at a faster rate rather than presuming that every investigator is going to go nuts, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

I don't have the BVP on hand at the moment, only the D20 one. I can say I didn't really like the idea of "Sanity" points. I actually abandoned the idea of sanity, and even the direct use of insanity, in these rules I've made. The rule mechanics based mental quirks and defects are related, but largely handled separately and almost coincidentally.

Instead the idea is corruption and deviation from human "norm". This also leads to difficulty dealing normally with other humans, you tend to make enemies (both normal and corrupted).  Going up can actually be slow....as long as you are a bit off kilter to start with. It is actually the initial "wow" that'll really get yeah. After that it is, in both IRL playing time and character time, a fairly slow process honing your abilities. Losing the corruption in IRL playing time actually happens (or doesn't happen) fairly quickly.  But it is difficult and can involve risky difficult choices. The slippery slope has to be there because the genre is ultimately a Tragety. Even if some people claw and crawl back out there are the ones that didn't.

I haven't put in any rules yet for anything other than retreat and rest. I'm not sure yet what history time period this will happen in, or how alternate from human history it will be. Will burn that bridge when we get to it.

Quote from: blakkieI don't have the BVP on hand at the moment, only the D20 one. I can say I didn't really like the idea of "Sanity" points. I actually abandoned the idea of sanity, and even the direct use of insanity, in these rules I've made. The rule mechanics based mental quirks and defects are related, but largely handled separately and almost coincidentally.

I'm wondering about Unknown Armies myself.  Drop the UA avatars and magic systems are replace with a single "Cuthulu Mythos" skill just like the Chaosium version.  Spells would be easy to port.  Then start hitting the Madness Meters instead of SAN checks.  The thing is, I quite like the way that the Chaosium Cuthulu Mythos skill sets a maximum point on your sanity (max SAN is 100-Cuthulu Mythos) and I'm wondering how best to incorporate it...