Quote from: Ben LehmanMalcolm is, of course, being a dork.  None of us, most especially not Chris, has ever said anything like "you think you're having fun, but you're not."

Actually, that's exactly what he illustrates here:

http://bankuei.blogspot.com/2006/04/when-it-all-falls-down.html

. . . with a big box called "Social Pressure and Denial."

You can hem and haw and call me names, Ben. You can appraoch this as dishonestly as you like. It doesn't change the fact that everything I am saying is referring to what you folks are actually saying.

QuoteWhite Wolf books, on the other hand, will openly tell me that because I care about effectiveness and modifiers that I am not really role-playing and I'm a lesser human being.  Yay!

References please.
yrs--
--Ben[/QUOTE]

Hey, Malcolm.  Chris, also, has a publically posted e-mail address.  Why not ask him what he means?

Ron and Chris are personal friends of mine.  I have talked with them a lot about these things.  Trust me, they do not hate gamers categorically.  Ron finds them frustrating sometimes, mostly because he runs a messageboard.

yrs--
--Ben

P.S.  As to white wolf ridiculousness, there was a great quote on a NKLand thread that I was just reading, god damnit.  Something about "leading lesser gamers by example."  I can't find it with search.  Anyone want to help me out?

Quote from: Ben LehmanHey, Malcolm.  Chris, also, has a publically posted e-mail address.  Why not ask him what he means?

Ron and Chris are personal friends of mine.  I have talked with them a lot about these things.  Trust me, they do not hate gamers categorically.  Ron finds them frustrating sometimes, mostly because he runs a messageboard.

"Hate," is certainly not a constant thing. It's one temporary manifestation of the contempt that is a consistent part of it.

QuoteP.S.  As to white wolf ridiculousness, there was a great quote on a NKLand thread that I was just reading, god damnit.  Something about "leading lesser gamers by example."  I can't find it with search.  Anyone want to help me out?

That's be the couple paragraphs Nisarg doesn't like. As interesting as it is to perform verbal acrobatics to make it look like being down on gamers, it doesn't keep it from being, in fact, the opposite, since it says:

1) Gaming can be artistic.
2) Some gamers don't care about that much.
3) If you're interested in artistic gaming, don't use it a pretense to annoy gamers who don't care that much.

Oh yeah -- it uses "roll-playing," too, because, in fact, gamers who have not had the benefit of the internet to tell them that it is Terrible and Wrong actually use the term and benefit from it. I have an essay about why dropping these common use terms is dumb here:

http://shootingdice.blogspot.com/2006/03/folk-theory-and-discourse-of-power-in.html

Quote from: Ben LehmanThe Forge has no small amount of D&D love (and some amount of D&D hate -- it's an open forum that doesn't ban people and thus you get all kinds).

I was directly requested by Clinton to stop posting on my disagreements with GNS or leave during its first few months of operation under his management.

I'm not banned at the Forge so your statement is true on specifics if not intent I suppose.

:popcorn:

This is fascinating: A White Wolf Swine and a Forge Swine each trying to defend their respective crapulence (often with the same sad excuses and justifications) while trying to piss on the other guy.  I haven't had this much fun just watching in ages...

But really guys; there's no need to fight, you both suck equally!
Both your respective groups believe in elitist patronizing of normal gamers, and neither of you are fooling anyone.
I just love how both of you are trying to claim that you're "getting better", while trying to show how the other guy hasn't changed a bit. And how you both try to argue that the evidence of your own crapulence is clearly taken out of context but the evidence of the other guy's crapulence is spot on.

Over here in non-jargon non-flower-artsy-shithead-talk land, we have a saying: "If it quacks like a duck..."

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThis is fascinating: A White Wolf Swine and a Forge Swine each trying to defend their respective crapulence (often with the same sad excuses and justifications) while trying to piss on the other guy.  I haven't had this much fun just watching in ages...

But really guys; there's no need to fight, you both suck equally!
Both your respective groups believe in elitist patronizing of normal gamers, and neither of you are fooling anyone.
I just love how both of you are trying to claim that you're "getting better", while trying to show how the other guy hasn't changed a bit. And how you both try to argue that the evidence of your own crapulence is clearly taken out of context but the evidence of the other guy's crapulence is spot on.

I simply play what I like and encourage others to do the same. I  like in when people take the time to make sure they're enjoying themselves. If you identify that with some sort of exclusionary principle, then you're really not very good at reading.

I mean, you might argue that there's some kind of subtext it what I'm saying that somehow disaproves of what gamers do, but you haven't. Hell -- the fact that I have to help you argue with me is pretty emblematic of how incoherent and shrill your position has become.

QuoteOver here in non-jargon non-flower-artsy-shithead-talk land, we have a saying: "If it quacks like a duck..."

Uh, you don't belong to that place. You just have retarded pretenses. You're an uninteresting person who wants people to play the way you do, and who hates people who don't play the way you do. Since this is your position, you can't really make claims to be in touch with what gamers want. I mean, you hate so *many* of them.

Let me know if you need any other tips on how to contribute coherently. You need 'em and I'm happy to provide 'em.

Quote from: shooting_diceUh, you don't belong to that place. You just have retarded pretenses. You're an uninteresting person who wants people to play the way you do, and who hates people who don't play the way you do. Since this is your position, you can't really make claims to be in touch with what gamers want. I mean, you hate so *many* of them.

Not really, there aren't that many of you, and even less of Ben's sort. The vast majority of gamers, no matter how much you wish it were otherwise, are guys who see RPGs as a game and play RPGs for what you have called "socially inept problem solving and escapist scenarios"; and what normal human beings without psychological justification issues about the fact that they're dedicating so much time to playing a GAME would just call "fun".

So yea, Eyebeamz, you keep telling yourself that you're not a hater, but the other guys clearly are... :rolleyes:

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditNot really, there aren't that many of you, and even less of Ben's sort. The vast majority of gamers, no matter how much you wish it were otherwise, are guys who see RPGs as a game and play RPGs for what you have called "socially inept problem solving and escapist scenarios"; and what normal human beings without psychological justification issues about the fact that they're dedicating so much time to playing a GAME would just call "fun".

So yea, Eyebeamz, you keep telling yourself that you're not a hater, but the other guys clearly are... :rolleyes:

RPGPundit

You hate people who play White Wolf games. That's around 20% of the hobby marketshare and, based on WotC market research data, over a quarter of gamers. You think about a quarter of gamers are peices of shit. Ron thinks they're brain damaged. These are facts directly attributable to your statements and Ron's. You really do have contempt for these people.

We can boost this of course by counting people who have felt they've had an artistic or immersive experience playing any RPG at all. At a rough estimate, that means you probably hate about a third to a half of the hobby.

I can't really help that you identify with this:

http://shootingdice.blogspot.com/2006/04/you-ever-notice-that-folks-who-are.html

. . . but hey, that's your choice. All the same, there's certainly nothing wrong with playing games where character to character socialization is ignored in favour of action and raw puzzle-solving. I enjoy playing these games in a way that you do not enjoy playing the kinds of RPGs I enjoy (after all, my tastes are broader than yours), but it is a fact that if you only play that, you're going to attract difficult people if your game is anything other than something held between a tight-knit group of friends.

This is why you have cause to bitch about such things and I don't. Frankly, Nisarg, if you didn't hate so many gamers, you wouldn't have cause to complain about the socially inept ones. You put all your eggs in one basket and you've paid the price. All the same, I don't have a problem with your playstyle at all. The fact that you probably execute your playstyle like an overripe assfruit would be what I'd have a problem with. The fact that I have no problem with how you play RPGs is entire separate from the fact that I think you're . . . what do you call it? . . . a "lawn-crapper."

Why does gaming attract shitheads like this?  Nisarg, Eyebeamz, you're both right, the other is a loudmouth jackass with an ego even bigger than your reservoirs of vitriole.  And the Forgies/Edwards' appologists, at least you're not foaming at the mouth, but please, your smarmy spin doctoring is not all that much less creepy.  Please, all of you.. don't get over yourselves.  I'm enjoying this battle royale all too much!

Quote from: ScalePlease, all of you.. don't get over yourselves.  I'm enjoying this battle royale all too much!

Why do meta-game-arguments attract people like Scale? But please don't get over yourself - I'm enjoying this meta-battle royale all too much!

(Now if we just keep this up for a few more layers, we can crash the internets! )

I do so love the internets!