You should really play the game. It's such a head trip. You start thinking in this alien way without noticing, and when you catch yourself it is such a "whoa!" moment.

Another video game head trip is Cosmology of Kyoto. At first you go around and explore, die a lot, go through routines, read up on sites like a tourist. But then you wanna see more and try to solve the game, and that requires thinking in that medieval Japan frame of mind. By the 50th death, and now quite deep into Kyoto itself, you take a break and everything around you has to slip back into modern logic. Very much a "whoa!" moment, where you realize how fast the human mind can drop one framework for another.

Oh definitely. I understand exactly what you're saying. (I loves me some 4x games too - EU in particular is awesome.)

I think that the ultimate hierarchical nature of Drow society's religious theocracy demands more order than chaos if you're going to make the assumptions that D&D does about the size and scope of Drow civilization. Menzoberranzan for example is heralded for the world as the example when in reality it's a small Drow city by comparison to Eryndlyn and Ched Nassad or Guallidurth which sports over a million-drow each. And of course that's just the tip of the iceberg.

If they were chaotic-evil as a general pretext to social mores - they would have imploded down to much smaller, much more fractious but manageable sizes. Like your orc-tribes etc.

I'm glad that WotC changed them to Neutral Evil. It was more fitting given the conceits of circumstances.

I think we're pretty much on the same grounds, I just choose to dispense with the labels - though such magic like Detect Evil/Good do exist in my games, and work exactly the same way, I find the labels of Alignment have historically gotten in the way of genuine character reactions in regards to many of my player's interactions with others. Not *all* Drow are CE, nor are all Elves good. But the meta-aspect has over-ridden those intereactions fairly often enough to justify behavior that their character otherwise might not have done. After removing Alignment in play - Drow are still "evil", Elves are still generally "Good" - but my PC's have learned to take things a little less "surface-view" only.

I don't know about that assessment of the drow due to city population, either. Aztec territory was a patchwork of conquered city states constantly fighting each other, even when under the heel of Tenochtitlán. And each peripheral city was easily 100k plus to Tenochtitlán's 250k. Paris, the largest European city at the same time, was merely 80k. (This was as per my MesoAmerican college textbooks as of 1999. New info may have surfaced. Yes, I ran the gamut of college classes).

I readily give chaos its due.

As for FR, Calimport is a mess of a city, the largest on Faerûn at 2 million people. It is 52 major semi-autonomous districts who occasionally even go against each other. It holds itself together from sheer opportunity and pride of a glorious past mixed with paranoia of surrounding enemies and a hostile natural environment that ensures density. It sounds so very much like the Underdark on land it's funny.

I have no interest in convincing you my interpretation is the one true way. (Oh, who am I kidding, I'm a gamer. Of course you are a heretic to be burned. Why must we all lie about it? ) But I found the alignment very plausible with things considered.

Quote from: Opaopajr;830498I don't know about that assessment of the drow due to city population, either. Aztec territory was a patchwork of conquered city states constantly fighting each other, even when under the heel of Tenochtitlán. And each peripheral city was easily 100k plus to Tenochtitlán's 250k. Paris, the largest European city at the same time, was merely 80k. (This was as per my MesoAmerican college textbooks as of 1999. New info may have surfaced. Yes, I ran the gamut of college classes).

I readily give chaos its due.

Interesting point. I don't think I'd classify the Aztecs as Chaotic Evil though for the very same reasons I don't think of Drow as Chaotic Evil. For me - Chaotic Evil means constant strife in order to establish a pecking order that only lasts as long as the current King of the Hill can keep their spot. That precludes an awful lot of organization and rules required to maintain large populaces under the direct control of someone.

I'm not convinced (but I could be with a good nudge) the Aztec culture hadn't already reached the "critical-mass" of size that moved the culture past "chaotic" and into "neutral" or even "lawful". My knowledge of Mezo-American cultures is a bit rusty but as I recall despite the fact they were indeed a feudal-like conglomeration of city-states, there was still a set of rules that transcended the immediacy of "chaos-might-makes-right" that I associate with more primitive social structures. I would personally look at the Aztecs as NE or LE.

I readily give chaos its due. I believe that large-scale "chaotic-evil" social structures are pretty rare. By large scale, I mean those that exist on their own under the rule of a singular entity and everyone gunning for them. Your mileage may vary.

Quote from: Opaopajr;830498As for FR, Calimport is a mess of a city, the largest on Faerûn at 2 million people. It is 52 major semi-autonomous districts who occasionally even go against each other. It holds itself together from sheer opportunity and pride of a glorious past mixed with paranoia of surrounding enemies and a hostile natural environment that ensures density. It sounds so very much like the Underdark on land it's funny.

I have no interest in convincing you my interpretation is the one true way. (Oh, who am I kidding, I'm a gamer. Of course you are a heretic to be burned. Why must we all lie about it? ) But I found the alignment very plausible with things considered.

hahah!! I'm a gaming heathen to everyone.

Interesting that you bring up Calimport. I'm a big fan of Calimport - and while you're right it's made up of 52 different districts - they're not autonomous. Most of the leaders of these districts are appointed and/or are directly related to the big cheese. Again - I'm in agreement with you in that it's very much like Drow society (my current Spelljammer game has a half-drow who is from Calimport, yeah it's fucked up), but Calimport is closer to a NE/LE society than CE.

It's got rules man!!! RULES!!!

Quote from: tenbones;830522Interesting point. I don't think I'd classify the Aztecs as Chaotic Evil though for the very same reasons I don't think of Drow as Chaotic Evil. For me - Chaotic Evil means constant strife in order to establish a pecking order that only lasts as long as the current King of the Hill can keep their spot. That precludes an awful lot of organization and rules required to maintain large populaces under the direct control of someone.

But is that chaotic? It's not a very nice system, but it has order and structure. The strong rule the weak, and the underlings can challenge their way up the social ladder. I'd think that would fall more on the good-evil axis than the law-chaos one.

In that vien, is a society with laws always a lawful one? I think it's another case of not taking the alignments as cosmic laws of nature and more as guidelines to behavior.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;830537But is that chaotic? It's not a very nice system, but it has order and structure. The strong rule the weak, and the underlings can challenge their way up the social ladder. I'd think that would fall more on the good-evil axis than the law-chaos one.

In that vien, is a society with laws always a lawful one? I think it's another case of not taking the alignments as cosmic laws of nature and more as guidelines to behavior.

The funny thing is that in Real Life (r), law and chaos are far from mutually exclusive, as anyone who has filed their own tax return ca attest.

I would also second the idea of Mesoamerican society as the closest analogue of being a real-life CE society; although there are also good arguments for saying the same regarding Colonial Britain or Spain as its LE equivalents.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;830537But is that chaotic? It's not a very nice system, but it has order and structure. The strong rule the weak, and the underlings can challenge their way up the social ladder. I'd think that would fall more on the good-evil axis than the law-chaos one.

In that vien, is a society with laws always a lawful one? I think it's another case of not taking the alignments as cosmic laws of nature and more as guidelines to behavior.

Hehe now as we near the crux of the problem that I have with "Alignment" - you are getting into heart of the question.

IS it chaotic? Subjectivity is a bitch. For me - I'm not a believer in moral-relativism. I think there is a spectrum of "best practices" for ethics and likewise the sliding-scale downward of "worse practices". If someone does human-sacrifices for the best reasons and it's socially acceptable, that does not make it "good", for example. Even if everyone, including the sacrificial-goat does it willingly. But it is clearly "more good" than say - Cthulu-spawn eating random people in our village at random times during the year in the most horrible and violating ways possible in order to assuage the Great Old Ones...

So if you have a society that's Chaotic Evil - that means, *in general* EVERYONE is out to get theirs by any means necessary. Might and the means to get away with meeting those needs *is* the rule. And little else.

The curious things about social rules and laws, is that they create these little oases that allow the physically (usually) weaker to proliferate usually for a reason. By dint of this fact alone, you're creating a "less Chaotic Evil" society. This is not to say that large tribal ass-beating orcs can't have rules. Sure. But the way I see it, it's always going to come down to how those rules get enforced. It it's arbitrary and ends invariably with a club to the skull... then the point of the "rules" go flying out the window. You're in CE territory.

The hallmark of civilization is continuity of tradition. That might be your cue right there. If there are "traditions" of rules... then you're probably (but not always) out of the CE-society range. Look at Demons... they don't have "civilizations" in the Abyss... it's dog-eat-dog at all times.

Quote from: crazyfunster;830547The funny thing is that in Real Life (r), law and chaos are far from mutually exclusive, as anyone who has filed their own tax return ca attest.

I would also second the idea of Mesoamerican society as the closest analogue of being a real-life CE society; although there are also good arguments for saying the same regarding Colonial Britain or Spain as its LE equivalents.

did a little poking around (i.e. I read it on the interwebz) Man it's a close call. Due to the structure of the Aztec culture... they had all the hallmarks of going Lawful. They had courts and everything. But invariably rulings were Club-to-the-Head. But the thing is they had a lot of other accepted rules of conduct that doesn't remove the evil shit, but certainly creates a system of order that I don't attribute with Chaotic Evil cultures.

So yeah -there is a strong case of Aztec culture being CE. Of course it could be that they're just in the long social transition to LE or NE.

LOL the mere fact we're having this conversation on this topic is *exactly* why I don't use Alignment. Because if you walked around and cast Detect Evil in Aztec-Fantasy Land - you're gonna get the GREEN LIGHT.

That it's Chaotic/Lawful/Neutral - ultimately is irrelevant in terms of gameplay. What happens in-game is what happens. What do the PC's do?

As for playing EEEEEVIL Campaigns - my current game is a party of Drow in Spelljammer. Evil? Oh hell's to the yes. It can be done, you just have to stay on your toes as a GM and be even-handed.

Quote from: tenbones;830559That it's Chaotic/Lawful/Neutral - ultimately is irrelevant in terms of gameplay. What happens in-game is what happens. What do the PC's do?

I've been approaching alignment as a statement of intent by the player. I view it not as something to enforce on the character, but something to explore. Just as a merchant character might be interested in buying and selling goods, a good character might be interested in doing good deeds. It's not necessary, but neither is encumbrance or weapons versus armor tables. I wanted to see if I could make alignment work and be a fun part of the game, before tossing it aside.

I tend to go with 'there's as much Chaos as Law' in the world, I use a Classic D&D type Moorcockian framework, and there certainly can be Chaotic large scale societies, some of which like Nazi Germany & Maoist China are highly organised. Lawful societies have things like security of property rights and rules which bind rulers as much as ruled. They may have light laws and be lightly governed, while Chaotic societies may be totalitarian and oppressive  - though if the rules are entirely predictable and you can be sure of a fair trial it's not Chaotic.

Quote from: tenbones;830476This is precisely the reason I always called bullshit on the Drow being called Chaotic Evil as their racial alignment. It made no sense to have the civilization they had.

acording to drow of the underdark there only chaotic evil on there own those that live in drow society (which is most drow) are actually neutral evil

Quote from: Ratman_tf;830562I've been approaching alignment as a statement of intent by the player. I view it not as something to enforce on the character, but something to explore. Just as a merchant character might be interested in buying and selling goods, a good character might be interested in doing good deeds. It's not necessary, but neither is encumbrance or weapons versus armor tables. I wanted to see if I could make alignment work and be a fun part of the game, before tossing it aside.

Sure that's perfectly valid. I think the only time the real rubber for Chaotic/Law hits the proverbial road is when you do it like S'mon describes where they are actual metaphysical forces in the game acting upon the world. At that point - definitely it matters. (and I should mention I do use alignment for religious classes for this reason).

Quote from: tuypo1;830584acording to drow of the underdark there only chaotic evil on there own those that live in drow society (which is most drow) are actually neutral evil

Yeah I'm referring to classic Fiend Folio 1e and 2e drow. They made the NE switch in 3e.

ah i see.

Quote from: tenbones;830607Sure that's perfectly valid. I think the only time the real rubber for Chaotic/Law hits the proverbial road is when you do it like S'mon describes where they are actual metaphysical forces in the game acting upon the world. At that point - definitely it matters. (and I should mention I do use alignment for religious classes for this reason).

Yes, I think you need to make a decision in a game, are the Alignments real forces? If they are, as in Moorcock's Multiverse, then great. That's what I'm doing in my new Mystara campaign, and the Law vs Chaos conflict provides a lot of structure and explains many weird things about the setting & classic D&D (like how the Churches are only tangentially related to the Immortals).

If Alignment is not a real force in your world, I think it's better not to use it, at least not in any mechanical way.