John, you're unhelpfully prone to hyperbole.  And you're being a little thick, too, which may be due to perceiving this discussion as being more combative than it really is.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaJohn, you're unhelpfully prone to hyperbole.  And you're being a little thick, too, which may be due to perceiving this discussion as being more combative than it really is.

It's true, I did perceive this as combative.  It seems to me that you are also guilty of hyperbole, for example by citing John Tynes' thoughts on how to run horror games, which didn't have anything to do with education.  

So to try again, our point of contention seems to be about priority.  Let's say I'm putting together a game that I want to be both educational and entertaining.  I don't say to myself, "This is education that is entertaining." or "This is entertainment that is educational."  Instead, I say "I want this to be a game that is both fun and educational."  

Is this a problem?  If so, could you explain why?

Quote from: jhkimIt seems to me that you are also guilty of hyperbole, for example by citing John Tynes' thoughts on how to run horror games, which didn't have anything to do with education.

Alternative uses of roleplaying quickly broadened from education to therapy back on Page 1.  Some of Tynes' suggestions for horror GM-ing involve volatile psychological techniques.  Take it up over in your therapy thread if you want.  The fact that you're personally disallowing the broadened discussion to include anything other than education and calling it "hyperbole" is a bullshit cop.

!i!

Quote from: jhkimI say "I want this to be a game that is both fun and educational."  

Is this a problem?  If so, could you explain why?

Because I've yet to hear of a gamer ask their GM to educate them.

All that stuff about GURPS books being educational - in the first place, a game book is not a game session, and secondly, as good as those books are, they're game books. GURPS Imperial Rome teaches you as much about imperial Rome as Monopoly teaches you about free market capitalism. It bears a vague and passing resemblance to it, but the real thing has got a lot more depth and detail.

Being educated through a roleplaying game would be bad not only for the roleplaying and the game, but for the education. It would be a trivial and superficial treatment of the subject, simply by virtue of the medium. What Mel Gibson movies do to history, roleplaying games do to all sorts of subjects. When it's "just a game" that's not a problem at all. When it purports to be real education, it's a problem.

Quote from: Kyle AaronBecause I've yet to hear of a gamer ask their GM to educate them.

All that stuff about GURPS books being educational - in the first place, a game book is not a game session, and secondly, as good as those books are, they're game books. GURPS Imperial Rome teaches you as much about imperial Rome as Monopoly teaches you about free market capitalism. It bears a vague and passing resemblance to it, but the real thing has got a lot more depth and detail.

Since no one actually has a time machine to go back and see the "real thing", I don't see how that is relevant.  The comparison is to various other books.  I don't have GURPS Imperial Rome, but in many cases that I've seen GURPS books contain better information than many of non-fiction kids books about their subject that I have seen in the library.  

Are they ideal for use in a class?  No, I don't think so.  However, I could see them being included in a curriculum along with various other sources.  I'd note that the
Osterskov school in Denmark incorporates many role-playing games into its curriculum, though I don't have details on it.  It is a magnet public school with focus on RPGs -- the same way that some schools have a focus on theater or music or tech.  

All of education is inherently about simplifying and abstracting the subject.  I think that many trading games would be excellent for use in teaching free market capitalism (Power Grid springs to mind); much as the U.S. naval academy uses the wargame Harpoon to teach naval tactics to its cadets.  Would just playing the game all by itself going to be as good as a dedicated class?  No, of course not.  

Quote from: Kyle AaronBeing educated through a roleplaying game would be bad not only for the roleplaying and the game, but for the education. It would be a trivial and superficial treatment of the subject, simply by virtue of the medium. What Mel Gibson movies do to history, roleplaying games do to all sorts of subjects. When it's "just a game" that's not a problem at all. When it purports to be real education, it's a problem.

I think this is nonsense.  People have said the same things about comics books, television, and computers -- that their content is inherently trivial and superficial because of the medium.  For example, I might agree that 99.9% of all comic books are trivial and superficial, but I think Larry Gonick's Cartoon History of the Universe and the Cartoon Guide to Physics are excellent educational works.

Quote from: Kyle AaronBecause I've yet to hear of a gamer ask their GM to educate them.

IME it's not a one way street. Gamers learn something as a group, throwing ideas around, engaging in discussion within the game and after it.

Regards,
David R

There seems to be agreement among researchers and practitioners that teaching facts and heavy theory through RPGs doesn't work all that well - or, rather, that there are better ways of doing it - but that teaching understanding of issues, ethics, debating skills, tolerance and other skills work great.

However, that may just be because nobody's come up with the right way to do fact-based educational roleplaying yet. Who knows? It's a pretty new field.

Quote from: Matthijs HolterHowever, that may just be because nobody's come up with the right way to do fact-based educational roleplaying yet. Who knows? It's a pretty new field.

Err.. Multiplication tables are facts...

Quote from: BASHMANErr.. Multiplication tables are facts...

Interesting point. I'll have to think out loud (well, in writing) about this.

Is multiplying two numbers the application of a procedure, or the recalling of a fact? Is it the same thing as remembering the capital of a country?

Let's assume multiplication is fact recall. Would it be the same thing if the game required players to recall the capital of a random country to play? No, because the multiplication is seen as an integral part of the game system - a part of the machinery, even if the machinery could easily be constructed so it didn't require the multiplication.

Traditional role-playing games lend themselves well to teaching mathematical fact recall - it's part of the tradition of RPGs, and part of the whole "game rules = laws of nature" philosophy.

However, other forms of fact recall - such as remembering historical facts - aren't a part of traditional game procedures, are they? They can be part of what players sometimes do, but they're not usually systematically required to achieve things in the game.

What kind of system could be made that required regular recall of historical facts, for example, as part of the game procedures?

Quote from: BASHMANIf I didn't make this game, I would have been forced to play "math-ominos" or something lamer with them by the administrators.

:eek:

As reasons to scramble "fun and education" go?

Avoiding the living hell out of math-ominos strikes me as a hard one to beat.

Just sayin'.

I have to say, I've seen a shitload of academic books on the Roman Empire that were far less academically useful, valid, or rigorous than GURPS Imperial Rome was.

Just saying.

Also, Greg Stafford should probably get a PhD. in Comparative Literature for his Great Pendragon Campaign book.

However, these few exceptions don't negate the fact that the average game book is not in any meaningful way educational, and that the actual PLAYING of games is even less educational than game books.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditHowever, these few exceptions don't negate the fact that the average game book is not in any meaningful way educational, and that the actual PLAYING of games is even less educational than game books.

Bingo.

We've discussed this phenomenon in various alt-history RPG threads.  The GM can be running a game straight out of a university history text, but as soon as the players start exercising their right to freedom of play, it becomes alternative history, which might give some players a rather skewed notion of how real history proceeded.

So this is an example of how the game is the primary goal, and education is secondary, even if the designer and GM intend to put them on equal footing.  Yes, the educational content is there, but it's suborned by the freedom to improvise ahistorically within the context of the game.

!i!

Quote from: RPGPunditI have to say, I've seen a shitload of academic books on the Roman Empire that were far less academically useful, valid, or rigorous than GURPS Imperial Rome was.

Just saying.

Also, Greg Stafford should probably get a PhD. in Comparative Literature for his Great Pendragon Campaign book.

However, these few exceptions don't negate the fact that the average game book is not in any meaningful way educational, and that the actual PLAYING of games is even less educational than game books.

Well, sure.  No one's claiming that the average group playing typical tabletop RPG books is meaningfully educational.  The claim is that RPGs can be educational, without fundamentally changing what they are.  This is demonstrated by existing educational programs as well as exceptional commercial products (like the ones you mention).

Quote from: jhkimThe claim is that RPGs can be educational, without fundamentally changing what they are.

How far a change makes for "fundamental", in your head, though?

Not to wake a screaming thingy, but some story-type-games are at the point now where I'd call them "fundamentally different" from old-school D&D, while still calling them RPGs (others would prefer to not call them RPGs, but whatever).  That is, the base expectations are not the same, and if you walk in with a regular set of expectations, those game just don't go.

That far?  Less far?  Even more out there?

Here's an example:

What about a game where you're actually supposed to push history back on the right track after someone messed with it? You'd definitely have to know your history to find out what to do, otherwise you'd just mess it up worse.