Quote from: Matthijs HolterBut you wouldn't mind a qualified teacher using role-playing techniques to teach you things, right?

Of course not - provided that I'd signed up for the class.

I sure as shit wouldn't like to come to a game and find out it was actually a class. I've been to a few rpg sessions where the GM was trying to tell me something they thought was an Important Message, and really it was usually just their own personal wank about how Religion X Suxxorz or whatever. Personal banalities presented as universal profundities. And then of course there are those historical games which turn into GM lectures on demurrage in late 12th century southern France, or some shit like that.

If I've signed up for a class by a qualified teacher, or for counselling with a qualified therapist, and they use roleplaying, that's fine by me - they know what they're doing.

But if I sign up for a game, and they try to teach me something or "fix" me in some way - no. Just no.

Like we said about We All Had Names, there's roleplaying, and then there's roleplaying games. The two are different things, just as games are different to roleplaying games. I mean, I've got the guys coming around for the first rpg session of the new year tonight - if I popped up and said, "Actually, tonight we're going to play Axis & Allies," they'd be pissed off. They signed up for a roleplaying game, not just any game.

This site, and our hobby, are about roleplaying games - the two together. That's why you get wary looks, Mattijs, when you come here - because you don't come to talk about roleplaying games, but about roleplaying. If you came to talk about games like chess and monopoly you'd be just as much off-topic for the forum, but you'd just get puzzlement, not the wariness - the wariness comes from wanting to use roleplaying as education and therapy. And most of us don't want that in our game sessions.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron... the wariness comes from wanting to use roleplaying as education and therapy. And most of us don't want that in our game sessions.

I'm sure this is true for most gamers here. I however welcome any discussion on this topic, although I would prefer it, if the discussion centered around a specific game or non game as may be the case. I found the We All Had Names discussion pretty interesting.

Regards,
David R

You, I imagine, David, would be among the last people to deny that RPing can have some profound effects on those who do it. So the question is how to harness that potential for good and not evil. Anyway, for those who are interested, I guess there's now a forum dedicated to it.

Quote from: droogI think that you are talking against best practice as it's currently thought. In best practice, kids direct their own learning to a much larger degree. And perceptions are very important, especially for kids. Part of education is equipping them for making decisions in an increasingly complex world.

In fact, it's the facts that need to be put into perspective. I could chalk and talk about the Holocaust for weeks without making much of an impact. Two things helped me really get it through to the kids, though (different class to the other game). One was showing them the film made by the British of Bergen-Belsen (short on facts, long on gut-wrenching horror). the other was doing a roleplaying exercise based on Blue Eyes, Brown Eyes. I got some good essays out of them after that.

Yeah, but your exercise was - as I point out - done under your supervision. It gave them some personal experience of a very mild form of prejudice, which helped them have more sympathy with the accounts of Holocaust victims and so forth and understand, in some small way, why the Holocaust was a bad thing. But there's a big leap between "I know what it's like to be discriminated against" and "I have a personal and valid insight into the Holocaust". They didn't learn anything about the Holocaust per se in your exercise - they didn't leave the room knowing more about the Holocaust than they did when they went in - they just learned a bit about prejudice.

Quote from: droogYou, I imagine, David, would be among the last people to deny that RPing can have some profound effects on those who do it. So the question is how to harness that potential for good and not evil. Anyway, for those who are interested, I guess there's now a forum dedicated to it.

Yeah, my stripes are pretty clear. I hold gaming (a new medium) right up there with movies, books, art which has the potential to entertain, educate.... all those things that expose my Swine pedigree. As always I'm interested in discussion.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: WarthurThey didn't learn anything about the Holocaust per se in your exercise - they didn't leave the room knowing more about the Holocaust than they did when they went in - they just learned a bit about prejudice.

I don't think that personal insight can be taught. But what is the point of teaching about the Holocaust? Surely it is to raise the issues of racism, hate, prejudice, the fruits of fascism and so forth, and let the kids discover what they think. You teach in units of work, and such an exercise is only ever going to be part of the toolkit.

They actually did know a bit more factual material when they went out, as it happens. My exercise was to divide the class based on a draw from a stacked deck – the red cards became Jews. Then we went progressively through the Nuremberg laws restricting Jews' freedoms. We had a small knot of 'Jewish' kids in their own area of the classroom being called 'Israel' and 'Sara'; finally they were ejected from the classroom altogether.

Sara?

Quote from: James McMurraySara?

It was made a law that all Jews were to be called 'Israel' for boys or 'Sarah' for girls. Abraham's wife, I suppose.

I said it in the original, other thread - because of the background of one of my players , that whole Holocaust educational thing would be a VERY bad idea.

Accidental bits of education happen in my game all the time. One of my players keeps telling me that I should go back to school and take classes to be a teacher. Because of the various backgrounds of my players I discover and learn stuff all the time.

- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarI said it in the original, other thread - because of the background of one of my players , that whole Holocaust educational thing would be a VERY bad idea.

Accidental bits of education happen in my game all the time. One of my players keeps telling me that I should go back to school and take classes to be a teacher. Because of the various backgrounds of my players I discover and learn stuff all the time.

Yeah.  I don't get the whole issue that RPGs and games and educational tools have to be slotted into boxes, and that educational tools should never be made to be fun.  Most of the reason why I'm not terribly interested in the Holocaust stuff is because it seemed to not be any fun.  

However, a lot of education can be fun.  I think it's good to mix learning and fun.  Some examples outside of RPGs that spring to mind are the boardgame Therapy developed with some psychiatrists that was successfully marketed.  Also there was the card game Anachronism that was sponsored and co-developed by the History channel.  

I've often thought that the GURPS historical books were already pretty good for learning history, and with a little tweaking could be much better.

Quote from: Kyle AaronI sure as shit wouldn't like to come to a game and find out it was actually a class.

We're on the same page there. Tell me what I'm signing up for - or, if you're going to surprise me, tell me you're going to surprise me.

QuoteThis site, and our hobby, are about roleplaying games - the two together. That's why you get wary looks, Mattijs, when you come here - because you don't come to talk about roleplaying games, but about roleplaying.

Yeah, I get that. That's why I dropped the other thread - I realized it was off-topic. However, when it comes to education, I do believe that it's possible to have fun and learn at the same time - or that the two can be done alternatively, influencing each other, in the same project, so to speak.

Quote from: Matthijs HolterHowever, when it comes to education, I do believe that it's possible to have fun and learn at the same time - or that the two can be done alternatively, influencing each other, in the same project, so to speak.

....Hrm.

I think that in a given roleplaying thingum, you need at least a partial priority that says "here's what play is".

I mean, let's say you want to teach me about slavery in the antebellum south by means of a semi-virtual experience.  Roleplaying (the basic process) could be good at that, no question.  And what I want is to be entertained by experiencing the cogent life of a given individual character, again by means of a semi-virtual experience.  Roleplaying, again, a good media for this.

And it looks like we've got our shit together.  But in play, there are going to be bits where I want to do "character life" stuff that obviously does not educate me at all - in fact, I might well find something about the character's life which is not educational, but that I want to go into in depth, to the exclusion of your stuff.  To you, I'm missing the whole point of play.

Now, yeah, that's an extreme example; we might well be both flexible, and have such material that this doesn't occur.  The two can fit together just dandy.

But it's a good thing if, overall, we share a basic definition of what play is, neh?

Quote from: Levi KornelsenBut it's a good thing if, overall, we share a basic definition of what play is, neh?

Oh, yes. Quite. And as a teacher in your example, I would probably step in and say "that's cool, but right now, I'd like play to focus on this - perhaps you could do that later?" (And if I'm an experienced game master, I probably have a few tricks up my sleeve to help you get back on track).

On a related point, I think it's important for a teacher to realize that no matter what you do - no matter what technique you use - your students will miss out on some things you try to teach them, and learn other things you weren't trying to teach them. (I mean, give a class a dictionary in a foreign language, and pretty soon some kid will have found all the dirty words in there).

Quote from: Levi KornelsenI think that in a given roleplaying thingum, you need at least a partial priority that says "here's what play is".

No, what you need to agree on his how to play.  You don't need to agree on some deep philosophy or higher purpose to play, or some theoretical classification of the priority.  You might have get different things out of the game that someone else does, but that's fine.

For example, say you're at some sociology class where they do some role-playing exercise to teach about colonial life.  You might be there to learn material for a book on a related subject that you're writing.  Someone else might be curious about the history and need a chance to practice their English.  Someone else might just want the credits and to hang out with some cute guys that are taking the class.  You all have different priorities, and will make different choices, but as long as you all act within the bounds of play, you could still get along fine.

Quote from: jhkimNo, what you need to agree on his how to play.  You don't need to agree on some deep philosophy or higher purpose to play, or some theoretical classification of the priority.

I think that what Levi means as a "priority" is whether the roleplaying is primarily intended as entertainment, education, or therapy, not "deep philosophy or higher purpose".

Everyone seems to be agreeing on the notion that, whatever stated purpose brings you to the table, the individual is free to take away whatever experience transpires for him.  It's also not too controversial to suggest that other agendas may work very well with the primary purpose -- an educational or therapeutic roleplaying exercise that is fun might be more likely to encourage players to engage constructively; a game that is instructive or thought-provoking might be more compelling and engaging for some players.

I don't have a problem with this sort of thing in principle, as long as the primary goal and peripheral experiences aren't conflated or confused.  I do have a big problem with GMs (or game designers) who either bore players by instructing them in their own breadth of knowledge, or -- much worse -- dredge up deep and dangerous emotional states of mind without the capacity to deal with them.

!i!