Quote from: ColonelHardisson;309991Gonzo? When did I become Gonzo? I've been called a lot of things in my life, but that's a first.

Sorry, Colonel Hardisson HAD the answer, Gonzo WAS the answer.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;309983Well, let's see. Thomas Bacon, Pope Sylvester II, Paracelsus, Agrippa, John Dee, Francis Bacon, possibly James I of England (the curse he laid on us pipe smokers is still going strong, at least).

Don't know which, if any of them, had towers.

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Anyone got any scans of old tymey etchings of Agrippa casting Fireball?  Or Francis Bacon casting Disintegrate?

They were using a different magic system.

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Quote from: RPGPundit;310036They were using a different magic system.

RPGPundit

ha!

Quote from: RPGPundit;309781[snip]

And when you run fantasy games, do you care that your dungeons have some sense or purpose; do you try to make them seem "realistic" or at least "logical"? ie. choose ruined castles, or catacombs or mines in place of the "bunch of rooms and corridors and stairs and other weird things underground"? Or do you just go whole-hog for the latter?

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Yes, Yes and Yes.

I try to have at least a semblance of logic.  I can get the same end effect of a "classic" weird dungeon layout by postulating it has been built up over hundreds of years, by different groups at different times.  This is enough "logic" for me to justify a design I just think is cool and present tactical options.  

I like to include mines, catacombs, chasms and such with rooms and corridors.  A nice mix.  To me, the best dungeon design is The Caverns of Thracia.

almost every dungeon I write up is a residential one. Therefore, I always figure out where the following goodies are:
1) The midden and privy.
2) the kitchen & ovens
3) the cold cellar (usually cooled by a nearby stream)
4) the residences.
5) the potable water source.

Quote from: RPGPundit;309982Except Moria isn't like a D&D dungeon either.

For what it's worth, which is probably very little, on the very first occasion of my exposure to White Box D&D back in circa 1977, I immediately thought of it as based on Moria, and I thought of Moria as the coolest part of The Lord of the Rings.

BTW, somehow we've all forgotten that the goblin tunnels in The Hobbit are a classic dungeon. And the book has other subterranean elements such as the trolls' lair, the prisons of the elf king, and the interior of the Lonely Mountain. Even though none of them had the sort of twisty tunnels vibe that I consider essential to real dungeons, they did inculcate in my young mind the idea that if you find a hole in the ground and explore it, you might run into monsters and/or treasure.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;310091BTW, somehow we've all forgotten that the goblin tunnels in The Hobbit are a classic dungeon. And the book has other subterranean elements such as the trolls' lair, the prisons of the elf king, and the interior of the Lonely Mountain. Even though none of them had the sort of twisty tunnels vibe that I consider essential to real dungeons, they did inculcate in my young mind the idea that if you find a hole in the ground and explore it, you might run into monsters and/or treasure.

Indeed. My earliest D&D dungeons were heavily informed by locations and events in the Hobbit, including a mass combat at the mouth of the Caves of Chaos where the PCs were aided by a friendly Werebear.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;310091For what it's worth, which is probably very little, on the very first occasion of my exposure to White Box D&D back in circa 1977, I immediately thought of it as based on Moria, and I thought of Moria as the coolest part of The Lord of the Rings.

BTW, somehow we've all forgotten that the goblin tunnels in The Hobbit are a classic dungeon. And the book has other subterranean elements such as the trolls' lair, the prisons of the elf king, and the interior of the Lonely Mountain. Even though none of them had the sort of twisty tunnels vibe that I consider essential to real dungeons, they did inculcate in my young mind the idea that if you find a hole in the ground and explore it, you might run into monsters and/or treasure.

And Shelob's lair.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;310091For what it's worth, which is probably very little, on the very first occasion of my exposure to White Box D&D back in circa 1977, I immediately thought of it as based on Moria, and I thought of Moria as the coolest part of The Lord of the Rings.

I could have written that post- except it would have been 1979 for me. Reading The Scarlet Citadel changed my perspective somewhat. Reading this thread has changed it more.

Quote from: Aos;310124I could have written that post- except it would have been 1979 for me. Reading The Scarlet Citadel changed my perspective somewhat. Reading this thread has changed it more.

Moria also strongly influenced my perception of dungeons. For the longest time, it seemed like the major inspiration for them in the game, since I never saw anything like them in other fiction, beyond, as some have mentioned, stuff like Orpheus in the udnerworld or the Hobbit. It wasn't until last year that I was able to finally get my hands on Sign of the Labrys (which I mentioned earlier, and which was one of the handful of books from the 1e DMG Appendix N that I hadn't read). I was immediately struck by just how similar the setting in that book was to the classic "Gygaxian" dungeon of early D&D. To me, that book had to have been a much more profound impact upon Gary when designing early modules and his own castle Greyhawk than Moria was. I'm wondering about what others who have read Sign of the Labrys think?

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;310130. I'm wondering about what others who have read Sign of the Labrys think?

I'm going to San Francisco next week, home of many great used book stores, I'll see if I can locate a copy.

While I can't speak to antecedents for dungeons in D&D, I do know that if dungeons weren't a big part of the game when I started playing in 1979, I doubt I would have taken to the game as enthusiastically as I did. The notion of exploring underground complexes full of monsters and treasures was pure gold to my 9-year-old imagination. My and my buddies didn't want to imitate fantasy books (at nine, we hadn't read many); we wanted to explore fantastic labyrinths.

As for realism in dungeons, I don't really need it. What I do like, however, is a good backstory and something more to the geography than shedloads of 20' x 30' rooms. Frankly, I never much liked Gygax's dungeons - many of them were simply underground barracks of humanoids. By the sixth of seventh room with 6 hobgoblins, a hobgoblins sargeant, and some sacks full of food and supplies, the dungeon has lost much of its magic. No, give me the Caverns of Thracia or Dark Tower anytime. They make sense from a timeline point of view, but they also have excellent variety in the layout and encounters.

On those occasions, few and far between, that I think about running or playing D&D again, it's because I like dungeons as a gaming environment.

I like mine logical, but the logic is based on the game-world, a place with lots of critters adapted to life undeground. My dungeons, like many old real-world structures, often start out as one thing and then are modified for use as something else, so it's possible to put together seemingly 'illogical' features that possess an internal coherence.

I think there are many real-world analogs to draw from for dungeons - the old mines under Paris come to mind. I've also adpated the dungeon exploring idea to other genres, such as space hulks and stations in Traveller.

I'm not wild about the "mythic underworld" approach to dungeons. I think it's very cool, but it's not something I personally would enjoy running so much.

And now, after typing this out, I'm going to end up thumbing through my 1e AD&D DMG tonight, maybe jot down a few notes in a notebook for the dungeon I will never actually design because fantasy just doesn't hold my attention very long.

Haffrung---
Caverns of Thracia remains the only outsource adventure that has every been used by my setting in the last 25 years.  Good example.  That one had a HUGE affect on my adventure design style.