....characters


Ahhhh, the traditional embellished RPGsite thread title.

Quote from:  Tycho of Penny ArcadeOne of the players in Gabriel's ongoing campaign made the mistake of suggesting they did not feel sufficiently threatened, and they did so in earshot of me, which his entire party will come to regret.  They have a game tonight, their last game ever if I have anything to say about it. Disintegrations for everybody. Resurrections impossible, or at the very least undesirable, as these revivified unfortunates could do naught but wail for the remainder of their natural lives, cocooned in a perfect, impenetrable agony.

Walking that line is a tremendous challenge, in a context already fraught with malevolent bugaboos. If you want to tell a story of any kind, and many gamemasters (dungeon masters, storytellers, oracles, directors, etc.) do, a reasonably continuous cast is often core to that - particularly if you've worked to nest them in the arc of the narrative. But the comfort we're talking about is the inevitable result - players come to feel like the marqueed stars of some long running serial, and they expect their trailers to be stocked with name-brand products. They start to demand vegan catering and increasing volumes of exotic, quasi-legal "sacraments." You can't really blame them; their characters exist in a universe that you create and sustain explicitly for their amusement. A sense of entitlement is the natural outcome.
 
In their world, death is something that happens to other people.
 
Typically, it happens because they, themselves, have killed that person - but let's not get ahead. We'll see what we can do to fix their little red wagon in tonight's game. In this metaphor, "fix" actually means "to destroy in absolute terms." The little red wagon represents the fragile cage of their mortal flesh, mortal being the operative concept.
 (CW)TB out.

As far as a bit of backstory goes (for those of you who don't follow Penny-Arcade):
 
 Tycho is a long time RPG player. He's a big lover of Call of Cthulhu and has been playing roleplaying games for a long time. Gabriel has never played an RPG before doing the D&D 4e podcast. Gabriel now DMing his own 4e game. They are the writing/artist team behind the webcomic Penny Arcade.


Anyways. This is very interesting. This basically flies in the face of all the people who say that 4e is still a 'deadly' game. Or you could say it's a confirmation of the fears that 4e is designed to cater to the feeblest of players. This little anecdote makes it obvious that D&D 4e does not make it's average Player Character feel threatened.

Gabriel, being a first time GM is always very concerned about doing things 'By the Book.' Running the game how it is written...he has absolutely zero experience (besides making fun of Tycho) with rpgs before D&D 4e.

On the other hand...Gabriel never wanted to play a RPG before D&D 4e. He also stepped right into GMing. Two positive things to be sure.

What say you??

I'm sure this thread will end up, in the very least, a bit heated.

Try to keep it a bit coherent though...if you could

In four months of RAW play we've had two character deaths and at least a dozen very near misses.

During my tenure, I counted four character deaths and numerous close-calls. I would have seen more if the DM didn't turn into a softy just to appease a certain somebody.

Quote from: KrakaJak;310069This little anecdote makes it obvious that D&D 4e does not make it's average Player Character feel threatened.

If you say so... to me, it makes obvious that those particular players don't feel really threatened... With so many things to grab on to bash 4e (should you want to), one little overheard phrase as quoted from a third party doesn't seem too terrible...

Quote from: KrakaJak...he has absolutely zero experience (besides making fun of Tycho) with rpgs before D&D 4e.

On the other hand...Gabriel never wanted to play a RPG before D&D 4e. He also stepped right into GMing. Two positive things to be sure.

(emp. mine)

I'm sure you meant to wrap [irony][/irony] tags around that?

Quote from: SunBoy;310081If you say so... to me, it makes obvious that those particular players don't feel really threatened...

Having read PA for a while now, and also having listened to their podcasts, it seems plain to me that this is the main thrust of Jerry/Tycho's postings and some of the recent strips - he sees Mike/Gabe as being far too reluctant to kill the PCs, rather than this being his criticism of 4e. If he has directly criticized 4e, I'd be interested in reading it, because what I've read (and heard, via podcasts) from him concerning 4e seems pretty enthusiastic, especially taking into account his old-school "Killer DM" attitude.

Plus, from my own experience, I found it pretty easy to kill PCs. Not as easy as earlier editions, but the difference in life expectancy didn't seem much different, two or three rounds.

I agree with the sentiment.  I've been playing 4e D&D since it came out and in my group we haven't had a single character death.  We've had a few close calls where a character went unconscious, but never a death.  We were able to either stabilze the character, or heal them and bring them back to consciousness in the middle of the fight.

It's always in the back of mind that no matter what it's going to be fairly difficult for a character to get killed outright.  Most of the near misses in death were a result of a single character charging in without the group and getting cut off for a round or two, or when a character is singled out for multiple attacks in a single round for whatever reason.

I can think of very few campaigns, regardless of system, where an inexperienced GM was running the game and an experienced player thought their character was at much risk. CoC is definately an exception to that, of course. B/X D&D as well in my experience.

A common thread from all the Keep on the Shadowfell play threads back when 4e came out was that the players wiped the floor with the monsters. Alternately, the monsters wiped the floor with the players. Either one of those results was pretty easy to get if one side played carefully and tactically, and the other was reckless.

I do agree with the OP that the prepublished modules for 4e are relatively speaking not very deadly, but I think that's intentional. Since some people like difficulty and, to be blunt, some don't, it's easier for them to underscale just a tad and assume GMs with skilled players will ramp up the difficulty as desired.

Quote from: Sweeney;310118A common thread from all the Keep on the Shadowfell play threads back when 4e came out was that the players wiped the floor with the monsters. Alternately, the monsters wiped the floor with the players. In a tactical game where one side knows less about tactics than the other, that's pretty common.

As one of my group's games, we are doing Keep on the Shadowfell right now.  Last weekend we played it and we did the room with the rolling Doom Ball and green dragon.  The room set up was what really added the deadly tactical element to that encounter.

However, it quickly became apparent to us that trying to run around in the rooms was foolish and deadly, and trying to engage the dragon his terms was also foolish and deadly.  We regrouped outside the pool room and skeletons on chains, and then ran into the center room (staying at least two squares away from the pit!) and waiting the dragon out.  We weren't going to bite.  The dragon tried to nip at us a couple of times, but almost got himself hit by the Doom Ball.  When he showed up, it got jacked by Opportunity Attack.  

Eventually, we waited long enough for the Doom Ball to dissipate.  Finally, the dragon got flustered and came at us, it was the last time for the dragon.  We swarmed him in corridor and took him down in three rounds.  

I could easily see how an impatient or inexperienced group could get themselves cut to ribbons in that encounter.  Our Invoker got caught alone in the crossbow/laser turrent room by the dragon for a couple of rounds and almost was killed, but he was able to get out of there and make it to the center room and safety of our group.

Quote from: SunBoyI'm sure you meant to wrap [irony][/irony] tags around that?

I think the post is an interesting discussion point. I was  basically thinking out loud. I don't really have a dog in the edition wars beyond the fact that I don't enjoy D&D 4e and therefore don't get to play D&D anymore. No big deal, I have other games to play.

It's rare you get to read an inline account of roleplaying from someone who is not tapped into the rpg.net/rpgsite/enworlds of the world.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;310112Having read PA for a while now, and also having listened to their podcasts, it seems plain to me that this is the main thrust of Jerry/Tycho's postings and some of the recent strips - he sees Mike/Gabe as being far too reluctant to kill the PCs, rather than this being his criticism of 4e. If he has directly criticized 4e, I'd be interested in reading it, because what I've read (and heard, via podcasts) from him concerning 4e seems pretty enthusiastic, especially taking into account his old-school "Killer DM" attitude.

Plus, from my own experience, I found it pretty easy to kill PCs. Not as easy as earlier editions, but the difference in life expectancy didn't seem much different, two or three rounds.

Tycho has said about as much bad as he can say about it, with WotC and D&D 4e advertised on his sight. I certainly don't think he hates it, but it's certainly not the game for him. He doesn't say anything bad (I don't believe he thinks anything bad about it really), but he's certainly not singing it's praises like the games he does actually like. He's obviously not in Gabe's game.

Quote from: KrakaJak;310145I think the post is an interesting discussion point. I was  basically thinking out loud. I don't really have a dog in the edition wars beyond the fact that I don't enjoy D&D 4e and therefore don't get to play D&D anymore. No big deal, I have other games to play.

It's rare you get to read an inline account of roleplaying from someone who is not tapped into the rpg.net/rpgsite/enworlds of the world.

Sorry, so you meant "positive" as in "discussion worthy". I read that as "positive" as in "not having any playing experience is good for being a GM". In your sense, yeah, it is interesting.

Quote from: KrakaJak;310150Tycho has said about as much bad as he can say about it, with WotC and D&D 4e advertised on his sight. I certainly don't think he hates it, but it's certainly not the game for him. He doesn't say anything bad (I don't believe he thinks anything bad about it really), but he's certainly not singing it's praises like the games he does actually like. He's obviously not in Gabe's game.

No, he's not, but I think that's more a matter of them not being joined at the hip when not at work. Matter of fact, I seem to recall a podcast where they discussed how they don't hang out that much together, or at least as much as fans think they do.

Tycho/Jerry seems pretty well-versed in 4e game mechanics, judging by the D&D podcasts, and seemed to be the go-to guy for a lot of rules questions among the group. Since the other guys - including Wil Wheaton, who was a definite fan of d20, as well as older editions - seemed to be coming into the sessions as obvious newbs to the game, it struck me that Tycho/Jerry had an actual working (playing, I guess would be the better term) knowledge of the game in comparison, rather than just a cursory run-through of the rules before the podcast was recorded. :shrug: I had the impression that he liked 4e, but it did strike me that he might still be playing another edition - not that the liking 4e and other editions is mutually exclusive.

Quote from: KrakaJak;310145I think the post is an interesting discussion point. I was  basically thinking out loud. I don't really have a dog in the edition wars beyond the fact that I don't enjoy D&D 4e and therefore don't get to play D&D anymore. No big deal, I have other games to play.

I have a 1st edition Play-By-Post here that is in need of a couple players.

Quote from: KrakaJak;310150Tycho has said about as much bad as he can say about it, with WotC and D&D 4e advertised on his sight. I certainly don't think he hates it, but it's certainly not the game for him. He doesn't say anything bad (I don't believe he thinks anything bad about it really), but he's certainly not singing it's praises like the games he does actually like. He's obviously not in Gabe's game.

From the June 2nd post

"The system is very different than previous iterations, in my opinion wonderfully so.  Third and three-point-five are clear iterations of previous efforts, and by comparison fourth packs up the old ways very tightly and then kicks them through the uprights, scoring in the process.  This took a long time for me to get my head around.  Clerics that heal allies by hitting enemies?  Spells cast at will, and not from a memorized list?  They broke with bad traditions while retaining the iconic stature of the classic archetypes - but these aren't the classes you remember.  Or the races.          

Those who crave the simulation elements of the game will be able to pick up on a rule or two, but we were a group that was going to naturally lean toward the story side.  Hopefully you'll still find something in it to savor."

Also in this thread, KrakaJak expands the anecdotal experiences of a single third party into sweeping generalizations to be taken at face value. All the while claiming no malice despite the overt baiting of 4e players with the typical and unimaginative "edition wars" bull-shit.

@ StormBringer: I'd be keen on giving first edition a go, whats the best avenue for approaching the game, as I'd be a new player?

Quote from: StormBringer;310201I have a 1st edition Play-By-Post here that is in need of a couple players.

My email is panthercrane@hotmail.com if you want a player.