Wow! Talk about taking woke idiocy to a new level...
As you may recall, a few months ago I posted regarding the outlawing of Seppuku in Edge Studio's 5e conversion of the Legend of the Five Rings RPG. I finally had a chance to see the text and it's even worse than I thought. Towards the beginning of the core rulebook, they have two full pages devoted to cultural sensitivity and respect for Asian cultures.
Among other things they forbid speaking "Asian-sounding gibberish or using performative accents." GMs are encouraged to have trigger warning conversations before games and be mindful not to offend anyone who might be Buddhist, Daoist, or Shinto. The members of those faiths whom I know would chuckle heartily at such warnings.
And there's this gem: "If you are not of a background or identity being marginalized/misrepresented at your table, do not argue with players of those backgrounds you have offended. No one is sensitive for no reason. Pain from racism is real and valid. Drop your armor class and seek to understand before causing further damage from your words." So you could be a white expert who corrects the ignorant American born Chinese or whatever, but you're automatically wrong? What if the Asian is misrepresenting the culture?
Interestingly, after lecturing you on striving for historical accuracy and cultural respect, they state "We firmly believe that the glorification of suicide as a method of redemption is wrong and can be harmful to players." So much for respecting culture and tradition. I guess if it offends your superior woke Western values, it doesn't count. So do the writers support abortion? Can't that be harmful to players, future or current? They also note "we ask that GMs do not include sexual assault or suicide (including seppuku/ritual suicide) in their games. We never know what trauma our fellow players have been through, but the consequences of being insensitive and jovial about such topics can leave lasting wounds far after the conclusion of a game session." First off, I would generally know these things about my players since I don't play with random strangers. Second, who alive has direct experience with seppuku? Third, who is jovial about these things?
They claim the book has undergone "extensive review" by Asian contributors. So I checked the full list of contributors and saw two or three obviously Asian names. None are recognized scholars or academics. And hilariously in their list of inspirational books at the front, they reverse most of the Asian names, putting the given name before the surname. So much for accuracy and sensitivity.
There's more but I think the point has been made. What a freakin' joke.
Insane and kind of hilarious.
What happens if the American born Chinese player tells the European-American GM to commit seppuku?
Can't argue but can't comply. Does not compute!
I agree completely. I miss the old AEG days of L5R.
Also, I lol'd at "Wokeugan" way too much.
That's just asking for making most possible offensive YT Actual Play of it.
So now we need a totally-not-L5R unwokefied retroclone?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 16, 2023, 03:56:39 PM
So now we need a totally-not-L5R unwokefied retroclone?
Nah, just do what I'm doing: running 4th edition L5R right now. Better setting, better system, better dice even*. It's the most complete edition of the game by far and runs pretty spiffy with just a few house rules. It's still readily available on DrivethruRPG under EDGE's banner, and they haven't even slapped one of those WotC-style "sensitivity" disclaimers on it. Guess they're not too good for my politically incorrect dollars, heh.
In the unlikely event anyone ever complains, I'll point out the following: Japan has never asked for permission to remix European culture in their many RPG video games, I don't need permission to remix theirs. Furthermore, Japan isn't some helpless baby culture in need of protection, they are a powerful nation who have committed their fair share of atrocities. Handling them with kid gloves is actually way more patronizingly racist than simply acknowledging the genre-defining reality of seppuku.
* In the case of the Fantasy Flight version EDGE inherited. Fuck proprietary dice.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked on November 16, 2023, 10:06:58 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 16, 2023, 03:56:39 PM
So now we need a totally-not-L5R unwokefied retroclone?
Nah, just do what I'm doing: running 4th edition L5R right now. Better setting, better system, better dice even*. It's the most complete edition of the game by far and runs pretty spiffy with just a few house rules. It's still readily available on DrivethruRPG under EDGE's banner, and they haven't even slapped one of those WotC-style "sensitivity" disclaimers on it. Guess they're not too good for my politically incorrect dollars, heh.
In the unlikely event anyone ever complains, I'll point out the following: Japan has never asked for permission to remix European culture in their many RPG video games, I don't need permission to remix theirs. Furthermore, Japan isn't some helpless baby culture in need of protection, they are a powerful nation who have committed their fair share of atrocities. Handling them with kid gloves is actually way more racist than simply acknowledging the genre-defining reality of seppuku.
* In the case of the Fantasy Flight version EDGE inherited. Fuck proprietary dice.
Isn't EDGE the same publisher of wokeugan?
I've got a policy about not giving my hard earned pesos to woketards because they hate my guts.
"Wokeugan." ;D
Genius.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 16, 2023, 10:10:18 PM
Isn't EDGE the same publisher of wokeugan?
I've got a policy about not giving my hard earned pesos to woketards because they hate my guts.
I don't care enough to go that far on this occasion. Buying a 4th edition product is a "vote with your dollars" signal to the management that there's still a market for the real deal, not the watered down version.
Besides, L5R was dead in the water until
Fantasy Flight and then EDGE stepped in. I might disagree with some of their corporate trend-chasing cowardice, but at least they have a chance of bringing Rokugan to the attention of new people. A fraction of those new people will then investigate the game's history and come to like real L5R better.
It's kind of like how D&D 5e helps some younger folk discover the OSR, or
Dial of Destiny causes people to marathon the actually good Indiana Jones movies for the first time.
A SHAMEFUR DISHSPRAY OF WOKENESS!
I guess that the good old samurai practice of sticking your enemy's severed head on a spiked board (after washing its face and arranging its hair) and having tea with it is also banned.
Sounds very different from the last "Oriental Adventures" campaign I played in where all the NPC names were taken from a Chinese menu. The arch villain in the campaign, Moo Goo Gai Pan, was holding a Mortal Kombat style tournament. In fact, we had to start out playing 0th level characters, (soldiers of General Tsao) charged with capturing one of the more reluctant competitors. It was a lot of fun and pretty brilliant. The second someone tries to complain about it being offensive, just have they/them's character encounter the wise mentor Crab Rangoon. People pretend to care about shit right up to the point where it costs them as much as a Big Mac. So guaranteed the greasy fat fuckers will never say no to Crab Rangoon.
Quote from: Lunamancer on November 17, 2023, 03:24:39 PM
Sounds very different from the last "Oriental Adventures" campaign I played in where all the NPC names were taken from a Chinese menu. The arch villain in the campaign, Moo Goo Gai Pan, was holding a Mortal Kombat style tournament. In fact, we had to start out playing 0th level characters, (soldiers of General Tsao) charged with capturing one of the more reluctant competitors. It was a lot of fun and pretty brilliant. The second someone tries to complain about it being offensive, just have they/them's character encounter the wise mentor Crab Rangoon. People pretend to care about shit right up to the point where it costs them as much as a Big Mac. So guaranteed the greasy fat fuckers will never say no to Crab Rangoon.
Awesome. FWIW I literally just wrote a biography of General Zuo. It will be published early next year: https://www.usni.org/press/books/struggle-empire
And yes, the point is to freakin' have fun. And who knows such games can serve as gateways to more serious study of other cultures, as they did for me. But don't beat me over the head with virtue signaling and moralizing.
Quote from: Lunamancer on November 17, 2023, 03:24:39 PM
People pretend to care about shit right up to the point where it costs them as much as a Big Mac.
Exactly!
Sounds like a hilarious campaign done in the spirit of fun. If I were in China and some group of locals was running a goofy Canadian campaign, I'd be all over it.
This reminds me of the Avatar: The Last Airbender RPG. There was a whole section slapped in the book that read like a Reddit mod's take on the Avatar lore. Talking about how the Fire Nation was xenophobic and homophobic, and how the Air Nomads were super progressives that communally raised children and lived accepting lifestyles. It's so randomly political that it just breaks any immersion with the world contained within.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked on November 16, 2023, 10:06:58 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 16, 2023, 03:56:39 PM
So now we need a totally-not-L5R unwokefied retroclone?
Nah, just do what I'm doing: running 4th edition L5R right now. Better setting, better system, better dice even*. It's the most complete edition of the game by far and runs pretty spiffy with just a few house rules. It's still readily available on DrivethruRPG under EDGE's banner, and they haven't even slapped one of those WotC-style "sensitivity" disclaimers on it. Guess they're not too good for my politically incorrect dollars, heh.
The OP mostly talks about disclaimers and commentary in the book. What are the actual changes in setting and system content? (NOTE: Personally, I've only briefly done a one-shot in Rokugan, and have never been interested in it as a setting, so this is just idle curiosity on my part.)
I mean, mocking their two pages of genuflection and nonsense seems like the more salient point.
I've no idea, of course. If they want to sell me a book, they can start by calling it Oriental Adventures, because then I'll know I'm dealing with some entity with a spine.
Also I know everyone is saying it, but Wokeugan definitely brought a smile to my face.
When those who cannot distinguish between reality and fiction want to participate in play, yet also want to harangue others, and protect their precious strawmen: Batshit Nanny Harpies. ;D Accept no substitutes!
Yeah, no. Old skool L5Rer here. Fourth edition is as far as I will deign to play, but my heart is in 3e LBS and 1e L5R, and OA is a product of its time with katanas uber alles (martial arts as a better customizable Punch/Wrestle table is nice variant though). :) This Edge studio wankery is unsurprising and stale. ::) I guess things really were better in ye golden age. ;D
Quote from: jhkim on November 18, 2023, 02:21:53 AM
What are the actual changes in setting and system content?
Off the top of my head, for
Adventures in Rokugan (the 5e D&D version of the setting), they did the following:
They wrote out seppuku as much as possible.
They added "wandering free-wheeling adventurer-for-hire with shades of murder-hobo" as a concept to the setting to make it more D&D.
They toned down (or sometimes eliminated) caste distinctions.
They rewrote the Rokugani as much less xenophobic so more foreigners could be running around.
They rewrote the setting so more non-humans could be running around with no consequence, including some D&D-style races.
They extracted some Chinese and Korean influences.
They swapped the genders and orientations of some long-established NPCs.
QuoteThey added "wandering free-wheeling adventurer-for-hire with shades of murder-hobo" as a concept to the setting to make it more D&D.
They toned down (or sometimes eliminated) caste distinctions.
They rewrote the Rokugani as much less xenophobic so more foreigners could be running around.
They rewrote the setting so more non-humans could be running around with no consequence, including some D&D-style races.
Those things are relatively acceptable for D&D variant, especially when classic variant is not-changed (unless they changed those things in 5e of LofR) as well.
QuoteThey extracted some Chinese and Korean influences.
Uhhh.. .thats racist :P
QuoteThey swapped the genders and orientations of some long-established NPCs.
Of course they did.
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 18, 2023, 07:53:51 AM
Those things are relatively acceptable for D&D variant...
I suppose there's an argument for that, but they also contribute to the kitchen-sink renfair blandness that D&D has come to typify. A setting is as much about what you exclude as what you include.
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 18, 2023, 07:53:51 AM
... especially when classic variant is not-changed (unless they changed those things in 5e of LofR) as well.
As I recall that's correct, the Genesys version of L5R is not as dramatically changed. It does not do the four specific things you quoted, but certainly changed NPCs and remixed the story that they rebooted (that's where the gender/orientation swapping started). It is also not selling well, judging by the failure of the LCG, how sparse the publication schedule for its RPG supplements suddenly became, and how much they've ramped up D&D-L5R in its place.
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 18, 2023, 07:53:51 AM
Uhhh.. .thats racist :P
Nonono, you see mixing elements of different cultures to make a new imaginary setting is racist because [checks notes] you're engaging in orientalist-colonialist thinking by treating different Asian cultures as an undifferentiated mass. Never mind that people (including Japanese game devs) do that all the time with European cultures because that's "punching up" by attacking the nationalist tendencies that lead to Nazism, so there!
If I had more time and some dedicated players, I'd convert L5R to Savage Worlds.
I own every edition of L5R and was a huge fan, but I think it's own complexity got in it's way a lot of the time. It's systems tend to work well if you want to focus completely on a heavy social court based campaign.
But when you want to go on Samurai Adventures, the complexity gets in the way. Savage Worlds has really grown as a system, particularly with how it's implemented Rifts and Pathfinder in it's own way. I think it would be easy enough to make Clan/School/Family frameworks and abilities and have the superior combat system of Savage Worlds... Heck you can even take the one on one dueling rules from Deadlands and covert them over for Iajatsu duels.
Overall though, I'm just sad one of my favorite settings is in the hands of people who have turned it into shit.
It's like how John Wick completely fucked 7th Sea second edition.
Two of my favorite game lines just completely ruined.
QuoteAs I recall that's correct, the Genesys version of L5R is not as dramatically changed. It does not do the four specific things you quoted, but certainly changed NPCs and remixed the story that they rebooted (that's where the gender/orientation swapping started). It is also not selling well, judging by the failure of the LCG, how sparse the publication schedule for its RPG supplements suddenly became, and how much they've ramped up D&D-L5R in its place.
Well definitely they ditched traditional attributes for Rings only.
QuoteI suppose there's an argument for that, but they also contribute to the kitchen-sink renfair blandness that D&D has come to typify. A setting is as much about what you exclude as what you include.
I agree but well that's for renfair 5e players, so let be it.
QuoteNonono, you see mixing elements of different cultures to make a new imaginary setting is racist because [checks notes] you're engaging in orientalist-colonialist thinking by treating different Asian cultures as an undifferentiated mass. Never mind that people (including Japanese game devs) do that all the time with European cultures because that's "punching up" by attacking the nationalist tendencies that lead to Nazism, so there!
And here I am with my idea that when crafting setting you role 3d1000 for table of various nations, historical kingdoms and fantasy stereotypes for each realm in your hexcrawl ;)
Give me samurai viking dwarves, dammit. (Also they speak French).
QuoteIt's like how John Wick completely fucked 7th Sea second edition.
Mechanics of 2e sucks utterly but I'm gonna say I enjoy expansions of lore to parts not described in previous edition.
Especially well of course Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth mixed with Kosciusko Insurgency ;) GO POLAND!
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 18, 2023, 04:18:57 PM
Mechanics of 2e sucks utterly but I'm gonna say I enjoy expansions of lore to parts not described in previous edition.
Especially well of course Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth mixed with Kosciusko Insurgency ;) GO POLAND!
I should say, I'm definitely in favor of the addition of a Poland-Lithuania :-)
But there were a lot of other changes to the Lore I think were worse overall. The change of Glamor from being a gift from the Fae to being restricted to "Grail Knights". The change of Dracheneisen from being a super metal players could wear that was bulletproof to being ultra rare and only used by Monster Hunters. The change from the Vendel and Vesenvanmenhjair from being in conflict with one another to being hunky dory happy and get along (Which means there is ZERO conflict in Vendel which means there's nothing to do there) The change from Alande being the original heir of the throne of Castille who abdicated to his younger brother Sandoval and became leader of the Pirate Nations to....being a generic female pirate.
There's more and more... but the additions to the setting (Fantasy Poland) was at the cost of so many things about the setting that were really special.
I want most of the 1st edition Lore, with the addition of Poland and North America and the Caribbean with a revised 1st edition system.
Something I'll never see, but a man can dream.
Honor and Intrigue is a great replacement though.
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 18, 2023, 04:18:57 PMMechanics of 2e sucks utterly but I'm gonna say I enjoy expansions of lore to parts not described in previous edition.
It didn't expand the lore though, because they changed the core lore to such a degree that it became a new thing.
QuoteIt didn't expand the lore though, because they changed the core lore to such a degree that it became a new thing.
Possibly, but then who cares about French ;)
Quote
I should say, I'm definitely in favor of the addition of a Poland-Lithuania :-)
But there were a lot of other changes to the Lore I think were worse overall. The change of Glamor from being a gift from the Fae to being restricted to "Grail Knights". The change of Dracheneisen from being a super metal players could wear that was bulletproof to being ultra rare and only used by Monster Hunters. The change from the Vendel and Vesenvanmenhjair from being in conflict with one another to being hunky dory happy and get along (Which means there is ZERO conflict in Vendel which means there's nothing to do there) The change from Alande being the original heir of the throne of Castille who abdicated to his younger brother Sandoval and became leader of the Pirate Nations to....being a generic female pirate.
There's more and more... but the additions to the setting (Fantasy Poland) was at the cost of so many things about the setting that were really special.
I want most of the 1st edition Lore, with the addition of Poland and North America and the Caribbean with a revised 1st edition system.
Something I'll never see, but a man can dream.
Honor and Intrigue is a great replacement though.
Well there are always possibility of making fan projects.
Take 1e and 2e and cherry pick best options - probably like 90% of 1 and 10% of 2e.
Does H&I is somehow setting neutral or it's own variation of theme?
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 19, 2023, 05:42:21 AM
Does H&I is somehow setting neutral or it's own variation of theme?
Honor and Intrigue is setting neutral. It runs on the Barbarians of Lemuria system, but with extensive rules for Swashbuckling style sword fights, taking down mooks, and has swordman rules and the like. It's back section even has a take on doing magic to a degree. Overall it's a better "2nd edition" of 7th Sea than 2nd edition is. I've ran it and it's tons of fun.
That being said, I was still hoping 7th Sea second edition would have been an upgrade over the first one. The original system was built so well into the setting too... With the Five attributes of Brawn, Finesse, Resolve, Wits and Panache... and how the Country you were from gave you a bonus to one of those... The idea of "Flesh Wounds" and all the neat merits.
That's really the only reason I wanted it over Honor and Intrigue... there's something to be said about a system being built for it's setting... 1st edition 7th Sea was almost balanced and I remember pretty much making my own 1.5 version of the system around 2008 that I ran a huge campaign with.
Sadly, I lost all the rules fixes myself and a friend of mine who was a Mathematician (who sadly died a few years ago) came up with together.
But outside of that, if you want an awesome swashbuckling game? Honor and Intrigue is it... and it's first supplement really added a bunch more Swordsman Schools for getting the rest of 7th sea as a whole.
If/When I run 7th Sea again, I'm likely just to use Honor and Intrigue and Kludge of the setting from 1 and 2.
So Honor and Intrigue is potentially preferable as a 7th Sea engine to even 1e without the fixes? I guess that may indeed speak rather highly to the system from a swashbuckling and mechanical perspective, given that it doesn't sound primarily to have been designed for that setting. Also sounds somewhat lower magic-integration than 7th Sea, given that the description for that I see online is swashbuckling and sorcery. Would you say that's prospectively part of the appeal, something that requires a workaround, or just something I'm outright getting wrong, I guess? I've wanted to do a swashbuckling campaign or one shot recently, but my procrastinative lack of nautical knowledge and a rules system that would be appropriately flavorful and impactful have gotten in the way a bit.
Also, while this is probably inaccurate to how the game is actually played, just the name Honor+Intrigue makes me think of honor systems like they had in the 1e OA and the like. In part just due to the title and topic of this thread. Is there an emphasis on honor, dueling, and maintaining social face within the mechanics? Or is that more something one would choose to bring into or leave out of their own game at will?