Quote from: SettembriniSad :-( I thought fighting with gods and planar politics are what that Epic Levels are about!

I just hit level 20 with my cleric, and was starting to  look which domain and portfolio looks tasty for me as a half god (which I hoped for to become in Epic Levels), to support my deity. Now I hear I have to fight the city watch? How lame is that!
We were planning on killing Iuz and stuff, not F20/R6 guys!

I'm assuming you haven't seen the ELH. Yeah, it was a bit of a letdown. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Deities & Demigods has a good amount of material that would serve well if retooled a bit and made material available to the PCs at epic levels.

I have, somewhere, the 3.0 version of the Epic Handbook. I don't remember Union being in there, but.... yeah.  Dull and lifeless, combined with a bit of a disconnect to my eyes.

Its the weird jump in scale that happens between 20 and 21 that causes me an issue.  Or maybe the incomplete jump in power scaling. I dunno... I'm not really sure I should be commenting anyway, it was an edition ago, level based games aren't my bag anyway and all... still, the Epic level threats seemed sorta cool, though you do have to wonder why the world hasn't been destroyed with all those god-abortions roaming around waiting for Epic parties to stop them :rolleyes:

I think the old school method of campaign building has been kind of lost. Back in the day, you started out small having very little influence on the setting and very little power. Both were gradually built up on the long crawl to the top.

Epic level play, as I remember it, was mostly about the extremely overt influence the pcs had over the setting, and setting their sights on the god food chain so to speak.

I think the problem today, besides the ones already mentioned is that there is a hell of a lot more variety to epic level play. It seems (to me at least)a lot of the stuff out there is grounded in the mundane...when really what is needed is the mythical or the legendary. Or maybe retirement

Regards,
David R

Quote from: SpikeI have, somewhere, the 3.0 version of the Epic Handbook. I don't remember Union being in there, but.... yeah.  Dull and lifeless, combined with a bit of a disconnect to my eyes.

Its the weird jump in scale that happens between 20 and 21 that causes me an issue.  Or maybe the incomplete jump in power scaling. I dunno... I'm not really sure I should be commenting anyway, it was an edition ago, level based games aren't my bag anyway and all... still, the Epic level threats seemed sorta cool, though you do have to wonder why the world hasn't been destroyed with all those god-abortions roaming around waiting for Epic parties to stop them :rolleyes:

Those god abortions are an absolute riot to run though. The ELH itself is a bit dull, running epics is not. It's a fun challenge if you're up to it.

Quote from: J ArcaneI can understand your thematic concerns about it, but at the same time, how else is one to make them relevant?  If the guards in a town like Union are all weeny little commoners, how are they supposed to keep the peace in a town full of epic level PCs?

This attitude pervades the ELH material I've seen, and most high level D&D material.  It's probably my love of Exalted peeking up, but it sounds like the GM is supposed to control the PCs.  The default assumption is that the GM has to have some way of keeping the PCs from doing anything they want.

Fuck that.  Let them do anything they want.  Epic characters should be extremely rare.  They want to kill the town guards?  Okay, they do that.  Hell they can march into the king's throne room, cut his head off, and loot the treasury if they want to.  The question becomes then what the consequences of that action are.  The people left alive by the PC's ravages will submit to their slavery to be spared, or maybe seek out an epic hero to drive them off, or just flee leaving the countryside broken and ruined.  The fate of entire nations will turn on the PCs every action.

The idea that the way to make an exciting epic game is to make super-tough monsters and an epic town with epic guards and epic bartenders who are epic retired adventurers shows that IMO the designers do not get what epic play is about.  It's about being a true hero of legend and making the world in your image.

At least, that's what epic play means to me, and I've not seen any version of D&D that does it even remotely well.  The assumption is always that the way to deal with higher power is tougher foes, rather than larger consequences to actions.

O_o

Soooo, the guards deciding to defend their town from a PC assault, or intervene when a PC decides to rob/kill/etc. the town's citizens, doesn't count as a consequence?  

Seriously, what the hell do you think a town guard is supposed to do, stand around and pick it's ass while the PCs stab the King in the face?

What "consequences" are supposed to take place when the PCs are, by right of powerlevel and GM fiat, basically gods?

I'm not surprised you're a fan of Exalted, as you seem to share that same extremist "Always say yes" philosophy so many of the RPGnet wonks do.

Quote from: J ArcaneSeriously, what the hell do you think a town guard is supposed to do, stand around and pick it's ass while the PCs stab the King in the face?

If its an epic PC doing it?  I expect the guard to either

- die on the PC's sword, if he's that type
- beg for mercy
- run for cover
- offer to serve the new lord

The whole point is that the guard *can't* do anything about it.  Could the guards do anything about it if Achilles or Beowulf marched into their throne room?  Hell no.  In an epic game, the PCs are that important.

QuoteI'm not surprised you're a fan of Exalted, as you seem to share that same extremist "Always say yes" philosophy so many of the RPGnet wonks do.

Yeah, it's to my taste.  It isn't for everyone but personally if you're trying to say no you don't want to be running epic games.  A gritty epic game is a contradiction in terms.

I don't know much about the Epic Level handbook, but surely at such high levels, the pcs aren't going to be messing around with town guards but rather mixing it up with demons and devils right?  

Regards,
David R

QuoteThe idea that the way to make an exciting epic game is to make super-tough monsters and an epic town with epic guards and epic bartenders who are epic retired adventurers shows that IMO the designers do not get what epic play is about.  It's about being a true hero of legend and making the world in your image.

Totally correct. I earned that by surviving and getting to 20th Level. Now I want the full package!

QuoteYeah, it's to my taste. It isn't for everyone but personally if you're trying to say no you don't want to be running epic games. A gritty epic game is a contradiction in terms.

I'm not looking for gritty.  I do expect a challenge though.  The joy to me of an epic level game is the prospect of an epic level challenge.  

What you seem to describe instead sounds positively dull.  Basically just handing everything to the players on a silver platter.  Where's the reward in sometihng that required no real effort to get?

QuoteWhat you seem to describe instead sounds positively dull. Basically just handing everything to the players on a silver platter. Where's the reward in sometihng that required no real effort to get?

I think you misread him: He´s saying Epic people should have world shattering and epic struggles, not fight the city watch.

Challenge: yes!
But challenges that are heroic and larger than life == epic!

Like killing gods or conquering planets.

Not fighting the fuckheaded stoopid 23rd level tavern brawl. That´s inane and childish.

Quote from: J ArcaneI'm not looking for gritty.  I do expect a challenge though.  The joy to me of an epic level game is the prospect of an epic level challenge.  

What you seem to describe instead sounds positively dull.  Basically just handing everything to the players on a silver platter.  Where's the reward in sometihng that required no real effort to get?

I think you're not quite seeing his point, as Settembrini is saying above. Matter of fact, what he's saying seems to jibe with what you're getting at - epic level heroes should have challenges that reflect their lofty status, not just challenges they faced at lower levels ramped up in power. The 21st+ level city guards just seem ridiculous. Why would the PCs even be bothering with a city watch, period, at this point in their careers? Why aren't they delving through the planes, looking to beard demon lords in their lairs or staving off armageddon? It seems like the designers of the epic rules for D&D didn't really explore the implications of high-power adventuring. That's what Maddman was getting at.

Quote from: J ArcaneI'm not looking for gritty.  I do expect a challenge though.  The joy to me of an epic level game is the prospect of an epic level challenge.  

What you seem to describe instead sounds positively dull.  Basically just handing everything to the players on a silver platter.  Where's the reward in sometihng that required no real effort to get?

Challenge is irrelevent, the GM can always challenge the PCs.  The job of the GM in an epic game isn't just to throw bigger monsters at the PCs (though those exist).  It's to let the PC see the consequences of their action.

So let's say the PC's do this.  They figure out that they're basically untouchable by the common man so they decide to take over.  They march in, slaughter the royal family, and declare themselves the new rulers.  Yay win?

Well now there's the matter of the nobility, who are quite upset at these events.  The PCs could just tell them to fuck off, but that will lead to the kingdom crumbling.  What good is being a king if there's no kingdom?  And the peasants may have really liked their king and hate their new rulers, even petitioning other Epic characters to come in and take care of these tyrants.  Meanwhile out in the borderlands the mad lich-king has been raising his armies of undead in secret, and takes the fall of the new kingdom as a perfect opportunity to invade.

So now they have unhappy nobles, grumbling peasants, foreign assassins, and an undead army led by a lich storming in, all from a few moments of violence.  *This* is what makes a game epic.  Not fighting monsters with a higher CR.  Facing a CR25 when you're level 25 is no more epic than facing a CR when you're level 1.  Epic is all about the PCs being forces of nature.  All the details of the campaign world will be swept aside in their passing.  They are more important than the kings, they will be compared to heroes of old, and in a thousand years children will be singing songs about them.

As an aside, I recall some great examples of this in Piratecat's story hour over on ENworld.  The group's cleric was considered a living saint by the people at large.  He needed to have a 5000 gp statuette of himself made for a spell component so he went to have one commissioned.  The storekeeper said "Of course, your holiness what color would you like the robes?" as he opened up a case with a dozen such figures.  Seems they were popular collectors items among the nobles.  Another time they walked past a group of children playing with sticks and pretending to fight monsters.  They overheard that the kids were pretending to be the PCs.

Edit - Col. Hardisson and Settembrini are pickin' up what I'm puttin' down.

Some of the Hong Kong action films give the feel that I'd like from epic.  An epic level character should be able to attack 20-50 low level characters at once - nothing less than whole armies  and other epic characters should count or even be bothered with.

Example, in Hero, China's entire fate is basically decided by the decisions of half a dozen characters.  Armies of underlings can waste the country side while the heroes are busy but they're really more part of the terrain or backdrop than foes.

The types of actions/decisions should evolve with level.  At the top, a handful of entities shape the world's destiny, not crawl through dungeons for even more stuff.