Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 01, 2020, 08:41:39 PM
One should be allowed to criticize this trope without being dismissed as a loony SJW.

You're not criticizing this trope. You are DEMANDING "representation" and insisting that the trope shouldn't exist because...reasons.

Like a loony SJW.

You're working yourself up into a self-righteous, moralizing frenzy because depictions of stuff you arbitrarily don't approve of exist somewhere in the realm of fiction, and you a want it to be different. Again, because...reasons.

Because you're not providing any valid reason. You're just asking "why can't things just be this completely other way?" like that somehow justifies things being different. But the fact that they're not somehow signals this HUGE failure of humanity. And the reason why we should be hit by a comet, or something.

Which, I don't necessarily disagree with, TBH, but not for stupid reasons like these. There are far more depressingly moronic things things that humanity is capable of than failing to fulfill some arbitrary expectation that you have, that you happen to confuse with simple "criticism".

Man, all I knew of Skaven were they were the Chaos Rat army for the version of Warhammer that I don't play.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 01, 2020, 09:17:25 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 01, 2020, 08:41:39 PM
What I mean is, why even mention that all the females are reduced to slavering broodmares?

....Why not? Again your talking like somebody in a position to make demands. I feel your arguing in bad faith.

Author fiat? I am in no position to make demands and I have no demands to make. I feel you are arguing in favor of maintaining the status quo for its own sake.

Unlike the drow or the khepri or a bunch of other sexist races, the skaven being a misogynistic dystopia is the most insignificant aspect of their lore. If that aspect was changed, then it would not have a cascade effect on their overall characterization.

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 02, 2020, 01:33:32 AM
You are DEMANDING "representation" and insisting that the trope shouldn't exist because...reasons.

Are you not demanding that the status quo should remain the same because reasons?

Why am I not arguing that the drow or khepri should be changed to have better male representation? Their sexism is explored within their own lore. There are many instances of male drow representation, such as Drizzt or egalitarian drow societies. The khepri are divided into several cultures based on whether they are sexist towards their non-sapient males or worship them. For the drow and the khepri, their characterization is integrally tied up in their gender norms.

Should the skaven have better female representation? In reality this is a function of the market, so it is only really important if there was a sufficient cohort of skaven fans who for whatever reason wanted female skaven characters featured.

In terms of the writing, the skaven culture would not be harmed by altering the way they treat females because it not an integral part of their characterization in their lore. It is an afterthought at best.

I don't think anybody would be upset if skaven patriarchy was changed by any writer in the future, given its insignificance. Whereas if the drow matriarchy were changed, I imagine many people would complain.

Before this thread brought it up, I never really thought about the skaven and I have no desire to petition giving them female representation. Once I lose interest in this tangent, I will stop thinking about skaven.


Was there anything else you wanted to discuss?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 02, 2020, 05:02:22 PMI feel you are arguing in favor of maintaining the status quo for its own sake.

Again the whole world is on its backfoot because you don't like something, and think what YOU like is better. All the rest of your arguments are utterly and completly insignificant because you argue from a position that your taste is the BEST and everything else should hula dance to suit you.

Your walking into a restaraunt that you admit you don't care about, and ask:
"Why do you serve peanuts here? Don't you know there are people allergic? You primarily serve seafood, so you not having peanuts shouldn't matter to you. And if you want to keep the peanuts around then your just arguing for the sake of the status qou"

What if the Skeven being sexist or the nature of their brood pods WAS integral to their lore? Would you then suddenly retract that argument? If the answer is 'No' then your arguing from a disengenous position. If its 'Yes' then your arguing that sexism should only be allowed to exist if the central plot element.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 02, 2020, 05:31:05 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 02, 2020, 05:02:22 PMI feel you are arguing in favor of maintaining the status quo for its own sake.

Again the whole world is on its backfoot because you don't like something, and think what YOU like is better. All the rest of your arguments are utterly and completly insignificant because you argue from a position that your taste is the BEST and everything else should hula dance to suit you.

Your walking into a restaraunt that you admit you don't care about, and ask:
"Why do you serve peanuts here? Don't you know there are people allergic? You primarily serve seafood, so you not having peanuts shouldn't matter to you. And if you want to keep the peanuts around then your just arguing for the sake of the status qou"

What if the Skeven being sexist or the nature of their brood pods WAS integral to their lore? Would you then suddenly retract that argument? If the answer is 'No' then your arguing from a disengenous position. If its 'Yes' then your arguing that sexism should only be allowed to exist if the central plot element.

I'd go play Scarred Lands instead because it doesn't disallow playing ratwomen.

If I don't like a product, then I'm going to go find a product I like. Or make something.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 02, 2020, 06:01:27 PM
I'd go play Scarred Lands instead because it doesn't disallow playing ratwomen.

Why is playing Ratwomen important? And what makes you need to have the option to play ratwomen (for a race you don't even care about) important? Is a product flawed in your eyes unless it validates every persons sexuality? Is there a logical limit?

Also you dodged my question. So where you arguing in bad faith, or insisting that sexual relations MUST be the dominant force in a story element if its allowed to exist?

Repulsive inhuman monsters should be gender-equal because I feel them to be repulsive otherwise. The Skaven are like they are because you are not supposed to like them.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 02, 2020, 06:14:56 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 02, 2020, 06:01:27 PM
I'd go play Scarred Lands instead because it doesn't disallow playing ratwomen.

Why is playing Ratwomen important? And what makes you need to have the option to play ratwomen (for a race you don't even care about) important? Is a product flawed in your eyes unless it validates every persons sexuality? Is there a logical limit?

Also you dodged my question. So where you arguing in bad faith, or insisting that sexual relations MUST be the dominant force in a story element if its allowed to exist?

Neither.

If I want to play a ratwoman or a flying pink elephant or a bloodsucking radio or anything else I please, then I don't have to justify myself to you.

You don't want to open up your game to certain concepts? Great! I am entirely within my rights to go elsewhere to find something that suits my current tastes without intruding on your fun.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 02, 2020, 09:54:03 PMYou don't want to open up your game to certain concepts? Great! I am entirely within my rights to go elsewhere to find something that suits my current tastes without intruding on your fun.

But thats not what your opening statement was. It was 'Well there COULD be a explanation for Skaven to be X way so why are they not that way! I find this degrading to male sexuality!"

Whats all this about status qou? About me needing a reason to even defend this idea? After demanding justification from everybody else, now suddenly demanding the same from you is too far?

If the gender roles were reversed and it was the male Skaven who were those who gave birth to the race none of the SJWs including Box would give a crap. As usual because it's female Skaven they get triggered and offended.

We are not supposed to sympathize with Skaven as another poster used a counterpoint. Rodents warped by Warpstone who want to take over and possibly destroy the world. Fit only to be exterminated and nothing else.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 02, 2020, 05:02:22 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 02, 2020, 01:33:32 AM
You are DEMANDING "representation" and insisting that the trope shouldn't exist because...reasons.

Are you not demanding that the status quo should remain the same because reasons?

NO ONE here is upholding the "status quo". YOU are the one insisting that things should be changed because...reasons. So the burden of proof is on YOU, as the party who has some sort of dispute on this issue, to provide sufficient warrant for your position. Not on the rest of us to provide justification for why you shouldn't be allowed to just roll in and bulldoze something that you didn't create and doesn't belong to you simply because you don't like it and you feel morally justified and firm in your belief that you know better. As if the default state of things is that any rando that wants to propose "change" for the sake of change has to be allowed to make arbitrary changes, and anyone objecting is somehow making an unwarranted imposition.

That's not how burden of proof works. These are NOT equal positions. Someone storming in and demanding changes "because" is not on equal footing to people raising an eyebrow at the arbitrary demands. There has to be sufficient justification why these changes "have" to be made, and you haven't provided them. You've simply complained that you find something morally objectionable, and lamented the very existence of OUTLIERS in fiction that aren't even common (the vast, VAST majority of cultures in fiction aren't like this), as if the mere fact that ANY of them exist is this gargantuan obstacle in a sea of bullshit you have to constantly deal with, when its just ONE. FUCKING. CULTURE. In ONE, fucking game.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 02, 2020, 10:42:34 PM
But thats not what your opening statement was. It was 'Well there COULD be a explanation for Skaven to be X way so why are they not that way! I find this degrading to male sexuality!"

Indeed, I think it is degrading to reduce men to misogynistic pigs who hate women so much that they will physically mutilate them into lobotomized bloated uteruses. While I wish this was not the case for the skaven or any of the other fictional races for which it happens, I am not so entitled that I actually expect it to ever change. A more productive use of my time is to either play the game as intended or play a different game.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 02, 2020, 10:42:34 PM
Whats all this about status qou? About me needing a reason to even defend this idea? After demanding justification from everybody else, now suddenly demanding the same from you is too far?

You are right. Neither position needs justification. It is a matter of personal taste.

Quote from: sureshot on October 03, 2020, 09:43:57 AM
If the gender roles were reversed and it was the male Skaven who were those who gave birth to the race none of the SJWs including Box would give a crap. As usual because it's female Skaven they get triggered and offended.

What is to say that is not already the case? Are the "males" actually male in the sense that they have testicles and produce sperm, or we all assuming they are male because they do not give birth? For all we know, those dangly bits are ovaries and an ovipositor.

And if that was explicitly the case, then I would certainly hope that men's right advocates would criticize the lack of male representation. Maybe GW would introduce a Drizzt-esque male skaven hero who fights for men's rights against those evil feminazis.

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 03, 2020, 12:42:13 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 02, 2020, 05:02:22 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 02, 2020, 01:33:32 AM
You are DEMANDING "representation" and insisting that the trope shouldn't exist because...reasons.

Are you not demanding that the status quo should remain the same because reasons?

NO ONE here is upholding the "status quo". YOU are the one insisting that things should be changed because...reasons. So the burden of proof is on YOU, as the party who has some sort of dispute on this issue, to provide sufficient warrant for your position. Not on the rest of us to provide justification for why you shouldn't be allowed to just roll in and bulldoze something that you didn't create and doesn't belong to you simply because you don't like it and you feel morally justified and firm in your belief that you know better. As if the default state of things is that any rando that wants to propose "change" for the sake of change has to be allowed to make arbitrary changes, and anyone objecting is somehow making an unwarranted imposition.

That's not how burden of proof works. These are NOT equal positions. Someone storming in and demanding changes "because" is not on equal footing to people raising an eyebrow at the arbitrary demands. There has to be sufficient justification why these changes "have" to be made, and you haven't provided them. You've simply complained that you find something morally objectionable, and lamented the very existence of OUTLIERS in fiction that aren't even common (the vast, VAST majority of cultures in fiction aren't like this), as if the mere fact that ANY of them exist is this gargantuan obstacle in a sea of bullshit you have to constantly deal with, when its just ONE. FUCKING. CULTURE. In ONE, fucking game.

You are right.

The patriarchal skaven clans do not need to cease existing in order for there to be clans that are not patriarchal. It should be simple for anybody to just introduce new clans that aren't patriarchal with "chaos magic" as an easy explanation.

It is not like special snowflake armies are not already commonplace. GW has introduced dozens in their supplementary lore.

So accusing the skaven of sexism is missing the obvious point that Warhammer is a game where you can create armies with special snowflake backstories, like a non-patriarchal skaven clan.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 03, 2020, 01:39:52 PM
And if that was explicitly the case, then I would certainly hope that men's right advocates would criticize the lack of male representation. Maybe GW would introduce a Drizzt-esque male skaven hero who fights for men's rights against those evil feminazis.

Speaking as a Men's Rights Advocate (I did identify as one, and still do when I think it's productive) this is a complete misunderstanding of what MRAs stand for.

QuoteIndeed, I think it is degrading to reduce men to misogynistic pigs who hate women so much that they will physically mutilate them into lobotomized bloated uteruses. While I wish this was not the case for the skaven or any of the other fictional races for which it happens, I am not so entitled that I actually expect it to ever change. A more productive use of my time is to either play the game as intended or play a different game.

Real life men are not fantasy rat creatures.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 03, 2020, 01:39:52 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 03, 2020, 12:42:13 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 02, 2020, 05:02:22 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 02, 2020, 01:33:32 AM
You are DEMANDING "representation" and insisting that the trope shouldn't exist because...reasons.

Are you not demanding that the status quo should remain the same because reasons?

NO ONE here is upholding the "status quo". YOU are the one insisting that things should be changed because...reasons. So the burden of proof is on YOU, as the party who has some sort of dispute on this issue, to provide sufficient warrant for your position. Not on the rest of us to provide justification for why you shouldn't be allowed to just roll in and bulldoze something that you didn't create and doesn't belong to you simply because you don't like it and you feel morally justified and firm in your belief that you know better. As if the default state of things is that any rando that wants to propose "change" for the sake of change has to be allowed to make arbitrary changes, and anyone objecting is somehow making an unwarranted imposition.

That's not how burden of proof works. These are NOT equal positions. Someone storming in and demanding changes "because" is not on equal footing to people raising an eyebrow at the arbitrary demands. There has to be sufficient justification why these changes "have" to be made, and you haven't provided them. You've simply complained that you find something morally objectionable, and lamented the very existence of OUTLIERS in fiction that aren't even common (the vast, VAST majority of cultures in fiction aren't like this), as if the mere fact that ANY of them exist is this gargantuan obstacle in a sea of bullshit you have to constantly deal with, when its just ONE. FUCKING. CULTURE. In ONE, fucking game.

You are right.

The patriarchal skaven clans do not need to cease existing in order for there to be clans that are not patriarchal. It should be simple for anybody to just introduce new clans that aren't patriarchal with "chaos magic" as an easy explanation.

It is not like special snowflake armies are not already commonplace. GW has introduced dozens in their supplementary lore.

So accusing the skaven of sexism is missing the obvious point that Warhammer is a game where you can create armies with special snowflake backstories, like a non-patriarchal skaven clan.

You are allowed to make up anything you want in your personal campaign and fanfic. But just because you have this arbitrary notion that EVERY. SINGLE. RACE or culture HAS to include ample "rEpReSeNtAtIoN" of gender or whatnot that doesn't mean that NO race/group/culture, etc. in fiction can ever be anything but a glowing rainbow of cultural pluralism and includes every possible presentation of gender identity and opportunity, etc. for every member of their society, like we're not allowed to explore different and even weird or unlikely or morally objectionable social structures or cultural norms in the realm of SPECULATIVE fiction--when that's what its for!

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 03, 2020, 01:50:22 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 03, 2020, 01:39:52 PM
And if that was explicitly the case, then I would certainly hope that men's right advocates would criticize the lack of male representation. Maybe GW would introduce a Drizzt-esque male skaven hero who fights for men's rights against those evil feminazis.

Speaking as a Men's Rights Advocate (I did identify as one, and still do when I think it's productive) this is a complete misunderstanding of what MRAs stand for.

Pretty much. RePrEsEnTaTiOn is strictly an Intersectional feminists concept and concern borne out of privileged, well to do, upper middle class pampered westerners with an over abundance of "education", who have it so good, their idea of "rights" is whining about characters in FICTIONAL media having to look like them--which is the primary concern of entitled, narcissistic idiots who think only about themselves and expect everything to be made about them. It's the glowing definition of first world "problems".

MRAs are concerned about actual issues that affect men, like male suicide rates, custody laws, male genital mutilation (aka "circumcision"), etc. Not with superficial, narcissistic nonsense like "representation".