Let's debate it: is it genius, or is it junk?
RPGpundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;429346Let's debate it: is it genius, or is it junk?
RPGpundit
There are only two possibilities?
-clash
It's really good, if you have a big enough brain to ignore the parts of the background that you don't like.
Neither. Like the majority of it's brethren, it floats somewhere in between...
Seanchai
Yawn....
Call me when this thread gets past the one liners...
Depends on if the setting floats your boat or the rules work for you really otherwise it's probably gonna be of zero interest to you, kind of like 99% of rpg's in that regard.
The genre just doesn't fit my brainspace, so to me it's junk. That is no reflection on the game itself though - i just don't get transhumanism.
Nitpicks about projecting current political climates directly into the fluff aside, it's pretty average, IMO. The combat mechanics seemed clunky and there wasn't a lot of "Wow" factor there for me, either in terms of system or setting.
But I do give the team massive props for releasing the corebook under Creative Commons.
It's certainly the best and most playable transhuman setting in the market right now.
If you don't like the genre, odds are you won't like the game, though. I have yet to meet a gamer who likes transhuman SF who didn't love EP; and I know of at least one gamer (me) who was sold into the genre by EP.
Come to think about it, EP feels very White Wolf-ish to me. Characters are members of a conspiracy (Firewall) fighting other conspiracies (Project Ozma, terrorists, the Exsurgent virus) with Kewl Powrz (transhuman tech and/or psi), against a background of apocalyptic urgency (extinction hangs over transhumanity like the sword of Damocles). I find this a Good Thing as it offers my own gaming group an easy handle on the setting.
Honest question -- what makes it so playable/interesting from a game perspective?
Granted, I'm one of those people who came into the hobby hating RPG fiction and related books, so I tend to focus more on the mechanics than I do on the fluff. I prefer to draw inspiration from novels and stuff.
Eclipse Phase didnt click for me. Dont know why though. I admit its a well thought out transhuman setting (and a very playable one, at that).
But Id rather play Transhuman Space (deep beyond), Blue Planet or Freemarket anyday. ;)
Closer to 'genius' than 'junk'... I don't think I've ever played 'junk'.
It was the first transhumanist game I'd played (I'd read Transhuman Space wayback when)... and it was pretty trippy trying to take on that mindset.
Very much a horror game from my point of view... unpleasant in the way playing a vampire ought to be but never was.
I'm not a system junkie but I thought it was pretty smooth in play, it reminds me a lot of BRP... the mechanics faded to the background for the most part and when they did come up they felt intuitive (one player had arguments with certain details but I think he was a 'special case').
The Character generation was slow for us newbies but I think it'd be a LOT faster once we got a grasp on the possibilities... it felt like there were quite a few options, which I like.
Depending on the players/GM I can see how it might risk falling into a rut of being played as a sexed-up cyberpunk game... which wouldn't be all that bad... but I think it has potential beyond that.
Quote from: Peregrin;429471Honest question -- what makes it so playable/interesting from a game perspective?
Granted, I'm one of those people who came into the hobby hating RPG fiction and related books, so I tend to focus more on the mechanics than I do on the fluff. I prefer to draw inspiration from novels and stuff.
Q: How do you challenge transhuman characters, who can switch bodies to cheat death, and create goods out of thin air with nanoreplication?
A: You raise the stakes.
EP posits a fractured transhumanity, and a clandestine organization rallying elements from distinct, often diametrically opposed factions, to fight against extinction-level threats, namely a quasi-Lovecraftian unfathomable nanotech horror that is the Exsurgent virus.
There are "soft", non-mechanical restrictions on resleeving, because with the destruction of Earth, both living space and physical bodies are at a premium. And nanoreplication is similarly constrained by the lack of desktop transmutation, and/or the availability of nanomanufacturing templates (the book describes a terrorist cell acquiring templates for plasma bombs and gutting an habitat, a scenario which just screams "adventure hook!").
The setting is very well-developed, and draws a lot from transhuman SF (Alastair Reynolds'
Revelation Space and Richard K. Morgan's
Altered Carbon are to me the most immediately recognizable influences).
I've got the free copy, and I really want the print book. There is just so much stuff there I want to read and re-read. I'm not sure I like the system. (I'm someone who liked Transhuman Space, but would adapt it to Big Eyes Small Mouth to run it.)
Of course I liked Centauri Knights even more. (Not quite transhuman-space.)
Quote from: The Butcher;429524Q: How do you challenge transhuman characters, who can switch bodies to cheat death, and create goods out of thin air with nanoreplication?
A: You raise the stakes.
EP posits a fractured transhumanity, and a clandestine organization rallying elements from distinct, often diametrically opposed factions, to fight against extinction-level threats, namely a quasi-Lovecraftian unfathomable nanotech horror that is the Exsurgent virus.
There are "soft", non-mechanical restrictions on resleeving, because with the destruction of Earth, both living space and physical bodies are at a premium. And nanoreplication is similarly constrained by the lack of desktop transmutation, and/or the availability of nanomanufacturing templates (the book describes a terrorist cell acquiring templates for plasma bombs and gutting an habitat, a scenario which just screams "adventure hook!").
The setting is very well-developed, and draws a lot from transhuman SF (Alastair Reynolds' Revelation Space and Richard K. Morgan's Altered Carbon are to me the most immediately recognizable influences).
Love Alastair Reynolds.
Quote from: silva;429475Eclipse Phase didnt click for me. Dont know why though. I admit its a well thought out transhuman setting (and a very playable one, at that).
But Id rather play Transhuman Space (deep beyond), Blue Planet or Freemarket anyday. ;)
I like Blue Planet, and love Freemarket, and I just picked up EP but haven't read it yet, so hopefully I didn't throw some money away. I usually like transhuman stuff.
I think its a very gameable setting and I'd love to run a Call of Cthulhu/Revelation Space/Torchwood game with it, but EP's character creation is just to too slow and fiddly for me these days. Way too many points, tweaks and unnecessary exceptions.
I'm looking at ways to streamline it, but it may just be easier to port the system to FATE (sleeves as aspects?) or Savage Worlds.
Quote from: Peregrin;429471Honest question -- what makes it so playable/interesting from a game perspective?
Granted, I'm one of those people who came into the hobby hating RPG fiction and related books, so I tend to focus more on the mechanics than I do on the fluff. I prefer to draw inspiration from novels and stuff.
Well, it starts off by setting the default assumption about PCs to "You are Firewall agents dealing with X-level problems", which immediately gets it past the first hurdle most transhuman games stumble over ("Who are the PCs and what do they do?").
Setting-wise, it manages to depict an interesting, non-utopian, post-scarcity, post-state system with lots of cool technologies, and then it follows through reasonably consistently on the consequences of those technologies for those societies. Ultimately, it uses the transhumanism as a set-up for cosmic horror, which is an original and interesting idea.
The system is overly complicated though. I'd use Silhouette, Unknown Armies or BRP for it, personally.
Both the system AND the setting are ridiculously complicated, filled with technological mumbo-jumbo and both rules and setting-element (ie. factions, groups, whatever) Jargon.
Add to that the fact that the whole thing is poorly organized, that you have a really crappy piece of in-game fiction at the start, and that its basically all over the place, and you get a very shitty game.
Plus I feel in no way satisfied that they address the fundamental issues with Transhumanism; the setting as it stand reads as extremely implausible to me, and the world they present makes no sense to me.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;429643Well, it starts off by setting the default assumption about PCs to "You are Firewall agents dealing with X-level problems", which immediately gets it past the first hurdle most transhuman games stumble over ("Who are the PCs and what do they do?").
Back when I read it and wrote a mini review here, I didn't really think so.
Seanchai
Quote from: RPGPundit;429739Both the system AND the setting are ridiculously complicated, filled with technological mumbo-jumbo and both rules and setting-element (ie. factions, groups, whatever) Jargon.
I agree the setting/terminology are complicated/unfamiliar... I dunno about 'ridiculously', but then I like Tekumel.
Why do you think the system is so complicated though? Is that just based on the character generation? Because when we got to playing it the actual mechanisms seemed pretty straightforward, reminded us of BRP like I said.
All the stuff with the different reputations with different factions... flipping between different sets of stats depending on what sleeve you're wearing... I can see that being more to keep in mind... but I'm not seeing any simpler way of making those options available.
Quote from: RPGPundit;429739Plus I feel in no way satisfied that they address the fundamental issues with Transhumanism; the setting as it stand reads as extremely implausible to me, and the world they present makes no sense to me.
RPGPundit
I feel somthing similar to this.
Somewhere in my head I associate transhuman games with very plausible and/or hard sci-fi (my fault, I know), and EP just seems too soft and implausible to me. Maybe its a collateral effect of making it more "playable" (the Firewall organization is a great tool for immediate hooks and adventuring, but at the same time it feels kind of lame for me in a way that THS´Genetic Regulatory Agency or BP´s GEO Marshals dont).
Think that through, silva: WHY does it feel "Lame"?
RPGPundit
Quote from: The Butcher;429468Come to think about it, EP feels very White Wolf-ish to me. Characters are members of a conspiracy (Firewall) fighting other conspiracies (Project Ozma, terrorists, the Exsurgent virus) with Kewl Powrz (transhuman tech and/or psi), against a background of apocalyptic urgency (extinction hangs over transhumanity like the sword of Damocles). I find this a Good Thing as it offers my own gaming group an easy handle on the setting.
Yes, very White Wolfish, in that your 'Kewl Powerz' generally aren't.
Regarding the transhumanistic elements and 'raising the stakes', they cheat.
Your attributes don't really change when you re-sleeve. Despite having an entire new body, most of your physicals stats are integral to the character, not the body. At best you move a few five point bonusus around. Toughness is a major change, however. As I can see most players will prefer to stick with their starting morph (or one they upgraded to that they like, though why they'd 'have' to, given character creation...), I don't see many players bouncing morph types in death. In this 'Sleeves' play more like the Clones in Eve Online or Paranoia, though yes, they don't have to.
By putting artifiical, illogical, and largely cultural restraints on the nano-fabrication, 'raising the stakes' as you called it, the game dodges the question of 'what could you do where resources weren't a problem anymore?'.
Because they are. Because the designers made them a problem. Thus it is not a factor in a 'post scarcity, transhuman setting'... because eclipse phase isn't.
I also find some of the various 'threats' to humanity to be more 'designers are idiots' than 'scary existential threats that may destroy all humanity if the characters don't DO something for Firewall (an organization that is given exactly as much detail as I've given in this paragraph....)!
But maybe that's just me...
Quote from: Spike;429956I also find some of the various 'threats' to humanity to be more 'designers are idiots' than 'scary existential threats that may destroy all humanity if the characters don't DO something for Firewall (an organization that is given exactly as much detail as I've given in this paragraph....)!
But maybe that's just me...
If there's something out there that would scare a pika, I don't want to know about it... :O
-clash
Quote from: RPGPundit;429911Think that through, silva: WHY does it feel "Lame"?
RPGPundit
Stereotype? Caricature? Underlying agenda of the game?
Quote from: Spike;429956Yes, very White Wolfish, in that your 'Kewl Powerz' generally aren't.
Regarding the transhumanistic elements and 'raising the stakes', they cheat.
Your attributes don't really change when you re-sleeve. Despite having an entire new body, most of your physicals stats are integral to the character, not the body. At best you move a few five point bonusus around. Toughness is a major change, however. As I can see most players will prefer to stick with their starting morph (or one they upgraded to that they like, though why they'd 'have' to, given character creation...), I don't see many players bouncing morph types in death. In this 'Sleeves' play more like the Clones in Eve Online or Paranoia, though yes, they don't have to.
By putting artifiical, illogical, and largely cultural restraints on the nano-fabrication, 'raising the stakes' as you called it, the game dodges the question of 'what could you do where resources weren't a problem anymore?'.
Because they are. Because the designers made them a problem. Thus it is not a factor in a 'post scarcity, transhuman setting'... because eclipse phase isn't.
I also find some of the various 'threats' to humanity to be more 'designers are idiots' than 'scary existential threats that may destroy all humanity if the characters don't DO something for Firewall (an organization that is given exactly as much detail as I've given in this paragraph....)!
But maybe that's just me...
It isn't just you.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Spike;429956Yes, very White Wolfish, in that your 'Kewl Powerz' generally aren't.
That doesn't mirror my experience with WW, oWoD in particular. If anything, our old games were
way over-the-top and often veered into the depths of "grimdark superheroes" territory.
Quote from: Spike;429956Regarding the transhumanistic elements and 'raising the stakes', they cheat.
I don't see it as "cheating", but they do bill it as post-scarcity transhuman hard SF RPG, so I can see how you may feel "cheated". Transhuman it may be, but it's not hard SF ("firm" at best, most likely "medium") and certainly not post-scarcity (see below).
Quote from: Spike;429956Your attributes don't really change when you re-sleeve. Despite having an entire new body, most of your physicals stats are integral to the character, not the body. At best you move a few five point bonusus around. Toughness is a major change, however. As I can see most players will prefer to stick with their starting morph (or one they upgraded to that they like, though why they'd 'have' to, given character creation...), I don't see many players bouncing morph types in death. In this 'Sleeves' play more like the Clones in Eve Online or Paranoia, though yes, they don't have to.
This is because the attribute system is... confusing.
A cursory reading suggests that none of the listed attributes (Aptitudes) are, strictly speaking, "physical" attributes, and that they're all "mental" attributes pertaining to the Ego.
Then you crack open the Morph section and see a bunch of Aptitude modifiers.
Quote from: Spike;429956By putting artifiical, illogical, and largely cultural restraints on the nano-fabrication, 'raising the stakes' as you called it, the game dodges the question of 'what could you do where resources weren't a problem anymore?'.
Because they are. Because the designers made them a problem. Thus it is not a factor in a 'post scarcity, transhuman setting'... because eclipse phase isn't.
I agree 100% that EP is not post-scarcity (they don't have desktop transmutation, and they even have a few traditional capitalist economies still running around). But it certainly does feel transhuman to me, more so than (say) Mindjammer, but certainly less so than Freemarket.
I do like the "transitional" approach they've taken, though. Desktop transmutation and unlimited nanofabrication might considerably lessen the impact of Earth's devastation, and the constraints placed on human population -- two of my favorite EP setting elements.
Like Mindjammer, it allows my players (mostly unfamiliar with the genre) to dip their toes into the transhuman pool without drowning them in the
really high-end transhuman and/or posthuman antics. Or better yet, it allows me to confront them with said high-end antics as alien or TITAN technology, and have them be suitably weirded out.
Quote from: Spike;429956I also find some of the various 'threats' to humanity to be more 'designers are idiots' than 'scary existential threats that may destroy all humanity if the characters don't DO something for Firewall (an organization that is given exactly as much detail as I've given in this paragraph....)!
But maybe that's just me...
On Firewall, did you read the GM's section? The bit about the Prometheans, et al.? It's no motherlode of information, but it's just enough to get a campaign running, which is how I like it.
And on the X-risks, why do you think "designers are idiots"? I find that the Exsurgent virus is a fairly consistent threat (that requires no more suspension of disbelief than any other given element of the setting), but I'm a relative newcomer to the genre, and I'd like to hear your opinion.
Any viral threat... and threat labeled as a DISEASE in a world where it is assumed the vast majority of the population exists as an upload-able datafile is frankly moronic.
No amount of super sweet high tech alien influenced AI handwavium can explain, rationally, how a virus can give you (crappy) psychic powers that exist in your datafile and travel with you from body to body... and can't be found and expunged simply by editing out the corrupted parts of said data file. That is two conceptual failures right there.
Then we have a weird sort of population crisis... specifically the circumstances that led to the 'Lost Generation'. For reference: Needing to bolster humanities numbers in the wake of the apocalypse, they grew a bunch of kids in a lab and something like 5 times the normal speed (cause, you know, its a CRISIS!), and most of them went horror movie psycho and killed everyone involved.... only there are something on the order of billions of 'refugees' existing only as cold stored data files just waiting for bodies, FREQUENTLY referenced throughout the setting. Which is it: Population crisis leading to force growing children out of necessity OR body crisis with billions of people just sitting in cold storage waiting for an upload? Both can not reasonably be true at the same time.
A living space crisis: Only, in canon there are morph bodies that will let you surf the corona of the sun, morphs that let you live on an unterraformed Mars, on Titan. Humans have never HAD so much living space. Non-issue.
All the nasty nasty on earth? Not a threat if you don't go there. Certainly not an existential crisis. I won't even go into the stupidity of how the apocalypse happened. Ok, maybe a little. Earth was destroyed by a nuclear war during the crisis stage of global warming as Skynet awoke. Pick one. Hell, pick two. Three is just... just... you know? I'm thinking the English language doesn't quite have the punch to convey how silly it is. Talk to me again after I've deciphered the language of the Old Ones.