If you are interested in it, mechanically that is...and there is nothing wrong with that at all... I WOULD recommend reading Frank Trollman's review of it on the Gaming Den (do be wise enough to check the next couple of pages of the thread... apparently a flame war seriously dispersed his next installment...).

He does savage the mechanics in a few places, while praising them in others.

Hmm, I see.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Seanchai;350631Well, "Here's why I say I'm not sure if I'd ever play it: I don't know how well it's free-wheeling nature in regard to identity and self would play for the masses. Characters rarely die. They can make copies of themselves. Gender means nothing. I'm not sure how well players would take to their characters when so much of what a player envisions about a character is mutable."

You can create copies ("forks") of your mind ("ego") as often as you want. [obligatory "go fork yourself" joke here] You can't sleeve them, though, because physical bodies ("morphs") are at a premium, as is living space... ever since we blew up the Earth, and millions of people escaped by uploading their minds into space habitats.

So, at best, you can leave them doing research and/or viewing porn on the Internet ("the Mesh") while you go off adventuring. Which is to say, there's nothing they can do that the personal aide AI that resides in your brain (your "Muse") can't do better.

Quote from: Seanchai;350631And, "Also, I don't know how well mystery and conspiracy would play in a game where computers are damn powerful, kind of psi power exists, you can make copies of yourself to go off and do research while you party, et al. I'm not sure they'd hold up too long and if not, well, what's the point?"

Computers are damn powerful, but that doesn't mean some (crucial) information is still off-limits for almost everyone. Quantum decryption should be awesome, but (not knowing jack about cryptography, or computer science, or the high-end math involved) I don't see why quantum encryption can't be just as powerful.

Psi is as rare as hen's teeth, and very limited.

None of these work against my suspension of disbelief. I don't know, the setting just works for me. I like the combination of "firm" (by no means "hard"!) SF, transhumanism (a sub-genre of SF I'm new to), conspiracy and Lovecraftian horror (sans occult).

Quote from: The Butcher;351240Lovecraftian horror (sans occult).

I'm puzzled by this. Care to expand?

Quote from: boulet;351241I'm puzzled by this. Care to expand?

Alien AI's did it.

And you can go mad.



That about sums it up for the 'occult' aspects.  Lots of technological tentacled gribblies and weak sause Psi powers that make you crazy that are caused by a nanovirus that rewrites your brain software instead of books.

Quote from: boulet;351241I'm puzzled by this. Care to expand?

By all means.

The common theme to much of Lovecraft's opus is that humanity is insignificant next to the mind-boggling vastness of the Universe, and that as our puny minds struggle to understand it, horror and insanity are bound to follow.

Eclipse Phase takes a cue from Lovecraft (presumably via Alastair Reynolds' Revelation Space novels), working off of the concept of the Great Filter -- which can be briefly described as the idea that the reason we don't get to see or hear from any sentient life beyond Earth, is that the stars are teeming with life, but it doesn't get to progress beyond their world of origin. Maybe they're bound to self-destruct, or too lazy to build spacecraft. Or maybe Something Really Bad is out there, nipping them on their buds.

Lovecraft used the trappings of the occult, describing in lurid detail how Western Civilization is threatened by depraved cultists enacting sinister rites from sanity-blasting grimoires, legated to us by pre-human civilizations established millions of years ago by god-like alien intelligences from outer space.

Eclipse Phase takes place in a fairly recognizable SF milieu, in which the continued existence of (trans)humanity is threatened by a hard takeoff technological singularity, instigated by a nanotech virus with biological and information vectors, legated to us by unmanned space probes released millions of years ago by god-like alien intelligences from outer space.

Hope that helps.

Ok thanks

Quote from: The Butcher;351240You can create copies ("forks") of your mind ("ego") as often as you want. [obligatory "go fork yourself" joke here] You can't sleeve them, though, because physical bodies ("morphs") are at a premium, as is living space...

That seems odd. I thought renting morphs was possible during egocasting (sending a digital copy of your mind through the Internet). If you can rent a morph for that, why not for Forks?

Quote from: The Butcher;351240So, at best, you can leave them doing research and/or viewing porn on the Internet ("the Mesh") while you go off adventuring. Which is to say, there's nothing they can do that the personal aide AI that resides in your brain (your "Muse") can't do better.

I'm assuming two things: Forking would cut down on the time it takes to investigate something, thus expanding the reach of the investigation and also that human minds are more capable of making the intuitive leaps that would help move an investigation along.

Quote from: The Butcher;351240Computers are damn powerful, but that doesn't mean some (crucial) information is still off-limits for almost everyone. Quantum decryption should be awesome, but (not knowing jack about cryptography, or computer science, or the high-end math involved) I don't see why quantum encryption can't be just as powerful.

I would imagine that quantum encryption would be very powerful. And I would imagine that key information would be heavily encrypted. But my understanding of the Eclipse Phase setting was that a) digital storage was beyond plentiful and cheap and that b) privacy was difficult because so much information was recorded and kept. That would, to my mind, be a huge boost for someone looking to a solve a mystery.

Quote from: The Butcher;351240Psi is as rare as hen's teeth, and very limited.

For NPCs. Just like Jedi.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;351252That seems odd. I thought renting morphs was possible during egocasting (sending a digital copy of your mind through the Internet). If you can rent a morph for that, why not for Forks?

Sure you can. I was just under the impression that it's expensive and not quite practical. But to be honest, I don't recall reading prices for morph rentals in the book.

Quote from: Seanchai;351252I'm assuming two things: Forking would cut down on the time it takes to investigate something, thus expanding the reach of the investigation and also that human minds are more capable of making the intuitive leaps that would help move an investigation along.

Forking might help with research, but I'm not sure it would be much better than instructing your Muse to comb the Mesh for relevant information (maybe there's a system somewhere in the book?).

Quote from: Seanchai;351252I would imagine that quantum encryption would be very powerful. And I would imagine that key information would be heavily encrypted. But my understanding of the Eclipse Phase setting was that a) digital storage was beyond plentiful and cheap and that b) privacy was difficult because so much information was recorded and kept. That would, to my mind, be a huge boost for someone looking to a solve a mystery.

Just like any cyberpunk setting, I suppose.

Quote from: Seanchai;351252For NPCs. Just like Jedi.

Aw come on. I'll grant you that it's no big deal to have a PC with Psi, but they're nowhere near Star Wars Jedi in scope and power. Besides, telepathy is not such a big deal, in a setting where minds can be downloaded, edited and generally mucked around with ("interrogative psychosurgery" anyone?).

Quote from: The Butcher;351344But to be honest, I don't recall reading prices for morph rentals in the book.

I could be wrong. I didn't double check.

Quote from: The Butcher;351344Forking might help with research, but I'm not sure it would be much better than instructing your Muse to comb the Mesh for relevant information (maybe there's a system somewhere in the book?).

I wasn't thinking just research, but also interviewing witnesses. And my thought is that a person makes better gut checks during an investigation.

Quote from: The Butcher;351344Just like any cyberpunk setting, I suppose.

I agree. But I think with Eclipse Phase, mysteries, hidden information, et al., are supposed to be more prominent than in other cyberpunk games. Also, it seems to me that Eclipse Phase highlighted the intrusive nature of the everyday surveillance much more than other games I've read.

Quote from: The Butcher;351344Aw come on. I'll grant you that it's no big deal to have a PC with Psi, but they're nowhere near Star Wars Jedi in scope and power.

Sorry. Yeah, the Psi in Eclipse Phase isn't remotely as powerful as a Jedi. But I don't think Psi will end up being at all rare. Jedi are supposed to be rare in Star Wars, but in the games I've played in and read about, there always seems to be at least one Jedi or Force User in the group. I imagine Psi would be the same in Eclipse Phase.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;350631Well, "Here's why I say I'm not sure if I'd ever play it: I don't know how well it's free-wheeling nature in regard to identity and self would play for the masses. Characters rarely die. They can make copies of themselves. Gender means nothing. I'm not sure how well players would take to their characters when so much of what a player envisions about a character is mutable."

It doesn't have to push the boundaries beyond what the players are comfortable with. At least when it comes to themselves. It's entirely possible for them to stick to one morph (you could even keep cloning the one you were born in), one gender, whatever. The Jovian faction even forbids resleeving. You're born as an unmodified human and you die as an unmodified human.

Quote from: Seanchai;350631And, "Also, I don't know how well mystery and conspiracy would play in a game where computers are damn powerful, kind of psi power exists, you can make copies of yourself to go off and do research while you party, et al. I'm not sure they'd hold up too long and if not, well, what's the point?"

Forks come in three varieties. Alpha, beta and delta. Alpha forks are exact copies of you, and thus as capable as you in every way. You can make an infinite number of them, put them in morphs if you like, or just have them run around as infolifes. You can even reabsorb them and gain their memories. Unfortunately, that gets tougher the longer they're separated from you, since they begin to develop their own identity. After a short while, it's pretty likely that they're no longer willing to serve as cannon fodder, or serve in general for that matter. Why should they do all the dirty work while you're living it up? And the more ruthless the character, the more likely those forks are to replace the original.
There's a massive taboo against using alpha forks. It's illegal in many places, and odds are few places would be willing to rent a morph to one. Alphas are generally best used in extremis. There are, of course, exceptions. There's even a criminal cartel where every member is a fork of the founder, but it requires a very special mind to be based off of.

Beta forks are essentially alpha forks that have had chunks of their mind sliced off. They're less capable, more robotic, but also far less likely to rebel. They're generally good for grunt work, but it's iffy to rely on them for anything that matters or otherwise requires a PC.

Delta forks are really crappy beta forks. They're not very good, but it's the only kind, say, the Jovians would accept.

As for psi, it isn't perfect. It isn't even that useful until you get to second tier powers, although there are several useful powers at that point. I'm trying to avoid it in game, since, well, it's a disease. Even disregarding the lessened resistance against psi powers and trauma, I'd expect most GMs to play up the disease aspects at importunate times. And of course, it's to be expected that there are several psis among the opposition.

All in all, the game gives the players tons of toys to play with, but none of them are perfect, and the opposition will always have a larger toy box. Aside from that, there's plenty of options to explore other systems via the gates or ships, play with politics, scavenge earth, play pirates or mercenaries, act as detectives ala Altered Carbon, or whatever your players get into. It doesn't all have to be intrigue.

Quote from: Spike;350845There are others, of course.  Issues with the so called population problem (not enough... so much so that they tried force raising children in AR, but somehow wound up with nothing but sociopaths... which makes less sense the more they dwelt on it, btw. At face value I accepted it, for the record), but they abandoned millions of 'refugee' cortical stacks (all retreivable) in storage or in the space elevator.

Yes. They actually do resleeve refugees. They even had so many they had to stuff them in cheap synths. It seems to me that population growth was a minor issue, whereas the other reasons made more sense. The Lost were highly intelligent, confident, adaptable and excellent psis. All decent reasons for the experiment. Hell, it'd have been awesome for colonizing other systems, or for maintaining their populace in case of another war. I agree that simple population growth under normal circumstances wouldn't be an issue for a good while.

Quote from: Tzenker;357343It doesn't have to push the boundaries beyond what the players are comfortable with. At least when it comes to themselves.

True. But there comes a point when subtracting elements from a game that it no longer becomes worth playing said game. As it's a transhumanist game, removing transhumanist elements would probably be defeatist.

Quote from: Tzenker;357343They're generally good for grunt work, but it's iffy to rely on them for anything that matters or otherwise requires a PC.

They're mechanically iffy or the book just says they're iffy? Those are two different things. For example, in Call of Cthulhu, fighting is supposed to be chancy and used as a last resort. However, mechanically, it's an attractive and efficient method of dealing with most Mythos beasties.

Quote from: Tzenker;357343Even disregarding the lessened resistance against psi powers and trauma, I'd expect most GMs to play up the disease aspects at importunate times.

That's really the old Drawback/Flaw problem though. You can try to use in-game, non-mechanical methods for balancing the benefits characters receive from other elements, but they're generally not terribly effective.

Quote from: Tzenker;357343All in all, the game gives the players tons of toys to play with, but none of them are perfect, and the opposition will always have a larger toy box.

I don't recall see any toys mentioned that would necessarily trump the PCs investigative abilities...

Quote from: Tzenker;357343It doesn't all have to be intrigue.

No, but Eclipse Phase bills itself as a "Roleplaying Game of Transhuman Conspiracy and Horror." As conspiracy is one of the big three in there, I'm guessing it's meant to be fairly prominent.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;357350True. But there comes a point when subtracting elements from a game that it no longer becomes worth playing said game. As it's a transhumanist game, removing transhumanist elements would probably be defeatist.

Yes, and that point differs from person to person. If your friend Joe isn't comfortable playing a shemale, there's no real reason to make him. There's probably other aspects of transhumanism he'd enjoy. If not, fair enough, it's not a game for him.
I don't agree that it'd automatically be defeatist. I used to play a lot of D&D, and while it's a fantasy game, we nevertheless tried removing species (like elves or monsters), magic/gods and whatnot. It was still fun.

Quote from: Seanchai;357350They're mechanically iffy or the book just says they're iffy? Those are two different things. For example, in Call of Cthulhu, fighting is supposed to be chancy and used as a last resort. However, mechanically, it's an attractive and efficient method of dealing with most Mythos beasties.

I think both. Beta forks are partially lobotomized copies of yourself, have somewhat inferior stats, and they tend to be under GM control.
Kudos on the example. I have many fond memories of lugging around a shotgun in Call, although it never did work for long.
I think we've had/been very different GMs. That's not an insult, by the way. It sounds like your games tend to be fun and freewheeling, although I could be reading too much into it.

Quote from: Seanchai;357350That's really the old Drawback/Flaw problem though. You can try to use in-game, non-mechanical methods for balancing the benefits characters receive from other elements, but they're generally not terribly effective.

That's not my experience, but fair enough. In that case, there's the increased vulnerability to trauma and psi for a bunch of powers that aren't much better than what you can replicate with gear, implants and drugs. I see psi as mostly an ace in the hole, rather than an element that will turn you into Neo or a jedi. It's not really a defense of the game (and if you're into psi, it's probably the opposite), I'm just not that impressed with it.

Quote from: Seanchai;357350I don't recall see any toys mentioned that would necessarily trump the PCs investigative abilities...

Hopefully not. I'd be pretty disappointed if the game didn't allow clever PCs (and players) to save the day.

Quote from: Seanchai;357350No, but Eclipse Phase bills itself as a "Roleplaying Game of Transhuman Conspiracy and Horror." As conspiracy is one of the big three in there, I'm guessing it's meant to be fairly prominent.

Sure, but as long as you have fun, who cares?

Quote from: Tzenker;357457I think both. Beta forks are partially lobotomized copies of yourself, have somewhat inferior stats, and they tend to be under GM control.

If the GM controls them, then that would certainly make them far less useful in an investigation. However, if that's not the case and, mechanically speaking, if they can investigate, then I'd circle back to my original assertion.

Quote from: Tzenker;357457I have many fond memories of lugging around a shotgun in Call, although it never did work for long. I think we've had/been very different GMs. That's not an insult, by the way. It sounds like your games tend to be fun and freewheeling, although I could be reading too much into it.

I'm not speaking about various experiences, I'm talking about what's in the rulebook. Characters start the game with a ton of combat skills, which they can then beef up with starting points. The majority of monsters in the books are vulnerable to weapons the characters would be able to find in most towns. Other methods usually require pixel bitching (finding the right book at the right time, for example) or cause the characters to be damaged (such as casting spells). Mechanically and RAW, the best thing to do is get a gun, increase your skills, and shoot things.

Quote from: Tzenker;357457That's not my experience, but fair enough.

I think in-game balancing acts have a fairly widespread failure rate.

Quote from: Tzenker;357457Sure, but as long as you have fun, who cares?

That's a good point. But I'd say again, then why play Eclipse Phase?

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;351473Jedi are supposed to be rare in Star Wars, but in the games I've played in and read about, there always seems to be at least one Jedi or Force User in the group. I imagine Psi would be the same in Eclipse Phase.

Seanchai

For Jedi, it really depends on where in the "Canon Chronology" you place your campaign. At certain times in Galactic history, Jedi can be quite rare (ie Galactic Empire/Dark Times). In other eras, they were fairly numerous (at least enough to justify a group full of them).