It is my opinion that in order to make a better game, a game must be topical. Not topical in the sense of 'must reflect current opinions', but topical in the sense of 'fit the generation's expectation of what fantasy should be'. Whether it be Dying Earth or Naruto, DND is a fantasy game and so should be what the people imagine fantasy to be.

To stretch one's net far, one should then support multiple editions of the game at the same time. A 70s edition game, an 80s edition, a 90s edition, an 00s edition, etc. Of course, WOTC won't do this because they're too fucking lazy. But then WOTC should die.

It's an interesting idea, to be sure. A series of editions of a game to reflect the fantasy zeitgeist of each era. Might be a good way to get engagement, though it might also divide folks firmly by preferred temporal segment.

TBH I dunno if D&D specifically would be well equipped to execute this concept, though. It's kinda been pretty specific in its iterations with respect to what classes can be played, vancian magic, and the general feel, with the exception of maybe 4th edition. I almost feel this would have to be a separate franchise. Complicating matters, I think fantasy varies a lot even within a temporal era. Like, really a lot. High fantasy vs low fantasy vs anime-esque combat vs whatever can be a thing in many of the recent decades.

That and I don't love WOTC either and dunno if I could in good conscience support them even if they somehow went for it and got it right.

No argument that more support and expansions for earlier editions of D&D would be cool, though.

Quote from: KindaMeh on June 07, 2023, 11:54:50 PM
It's an interesting idea, to be sure. A series of editions of a game to reflect the fantasy zeitgeist of each era. Might be a good way to get engagement, though it might also divide folks firmly by preferred temporal segment.

TBH I dunno if D&D specifically would be well equipped to execute this concept, though. It's kinda been pretty specific in its iterations with respect to what classes can be played, vancian magic, and the general feel, with the exception of maybe 4th edition. I almost feel this would have to be a separate franchise. Complicating matters, I think fantasy varies a lot even within a temporal era. Like, really a lot. High fantasy vs low fantasy vs anime-esque combat vs whatever can be a thing in many of the recent decades.

That and I don't love WOTC either and dunno if I could in good conscience support them even if they somehow went for it and got it right.

Dividing folks is actually the purpose. The older generation will continue to give the company money as the new generation does.

If not DND, maybe some replacement TTRPG (i hope) when WOTC fails. To make it simpler, one could take from what a person into the broad genre of fantasy would most likely be aware of. Naruto sold 85 million copies in America, and fantasy fans at that time would be familiar with that.

I very much like the idea of engaging multiple generations with multiple editions that are supported and distinct. That's a good idea both commercially and creatively, which means it both deserves to and might actually succeed.

I think high vs low fantasy and the like would likely come into play to prevent a consolidation of feel for the player base, though, even within eras. That and gaming styles. It's hard to make a game that works for everyone within an age demographic even if it captures the vibe of that time, I feel. That and a level of scope kinda has to be chosen for the game world. Like, is it anime-type combat, or do characters die of wound infections, or are there literal gods and high fantasy folk running around, or will a squad of longbow archers do in just about anybody individually, or progression between those levels, or whatever.

Maybe it could work if it did something like separating out specific types of fantasy and types of gaming that combined sort of fit a generation's preferred gaming vibe and then building editions around those rather than the vibes of IRL chronological years? IDK. Honestly this is a little difficult for me to conceptually grasp in a sense.

I guess you could have some sort of OSR setup for the grognards, probably with Tolkien-type vibes in the setting as one edition. Then make one for the storytelling system type gamers. Then make one for the FATE type gamers maybe? Not sure how to connect them all though. It almost feels like what I'm suggesting wouldn't work because it would just be a bunch of different games of different genres.

Quote from: KindaMeh on June 08, 2023, 12:22:02 AM
I very much like the idea of engaging multiple generations with multiple editions that are supported and distinct. That's a good idea both commercially and creatively, which means it both deserves to and might actually succeed.

I think high vs low fantasy and the like would likely come into play to prevent a consolidation of feel for the player base, though, even within eras. That and gaming styles. It's hard to make a game that works for everyone within an age demographic even if it captures the vibe of that time, I feel. That and a level of scope kinda has to be chosen for the game world. Like, is it anime-type combat, or do characters die of wound infections, or are there literal gods and high fantasy folk running around, or will a squad of longbow archers do in just about anybody individually, or progression between those levels, or whatever.

Maybe it could work if it did something like separating out specific types of fantasy and types of gaming that combined sort of fit a generation's preferred gaming vibe and then building editions around those rather than the vibes of IRL chronological years? IDK. Honestly this is a little difficult for me to conceptually grasp in a sense.

I guess you could have some sort of OSR setup for the grognards, probably with Tolkien-type vibes in the setting as one edition. Then make one for the storytelling system type gamers. Then make one for the FATE type gamers maybe? Not sure how to connect them all though. It almost feels like what I'm suggesting wouldn't work because it would just be a bunch of different games of different genres.

that issue- itt would be very big. your suggestion for fixing it is a very good start.

Quote from: KindaMeh on June 08, 2023, 12:22:02 AM
I guess you could have some sort of OSR setup for the grognards, probably with Tolkien-type vibes in the setting as one edition. Then make one for the storytelling system type gamers. Then make one for the FATE type gamers maybe? Not sure how to connect them all though. It almost feels like what I'm suggesting wouldn't work because it would just be a bunch of different games of different genres.

Just to be clear - being a bunch of different games doesn't mean it doesn't work. I think having a bunch of different games for different tastes is fine.

Though, I also think that in the past, I'm not sure D&D was a representation of what was most popular in fantasy generally. It was the most popular among D&D players, but that's a little self-referential. D&D has always been a niche within fantasy fans - though admittedly a large niche, particularly now.

D&D has a very particular power level, I don't think that can vary all that much by edition and still be D&D. But I definitely think campaign settings, monsters, and other 'stuff' should take from current media, especially where there is significant innovation/new ideas (so not much from Hollywood, sadly).

Something I basically never saw from Western media, but popular in Japanese was secondary worlds post industrial revolution - 19th & 20th century worlds, typically steampunk and dieselpunk (well, maybe Streets of Fire counts). Now we get stuff like Candela Obscura, but there's still a lot of space there. I'd love a mid 20th century dieselpunk secondary world setting like Valkyria Chronicles, and typical Anime high powered tropes could work well with D&D-based rules - OSR or 5e/d20.

VERY strongly disagree that D&D should be topical.

That is exactly what got 2e and 4e in trouble and is currently making a mess of 5e and like 75% of all other RPGs.
 
We need less "Trendy!" and more setting/rules/whatever to play a game rather than play some designer or companies agenda.

Quote from: Omega on June 08, 2023, 04:15:17 AM
VERY strongly disagree that D&D should be topical.

That is exactly what got 2e and 4e in trouble and is currently making a mess of 5e and like 75% of all other RPGs.
 
We need less "Trendy!" and more setting/rules/whatever to play a game rather than play some designer or companies agenda.

2e wasn't representing a generic 90s fantasy, it was a bunch of different subgenres. Arguably WoD did the best job of representing the fantasy of the time. It's when Urban Fantasy really came in, and it managed to create its own sustaining setting rather than having to refer to a particular series.

The tricky thing is predicting what the 'next big thing' would be. The 00s were somewhat the zombie era, and AFMBE burned hot for a bit. The 10s are probably defined the most by Game of Thrones. 20s I'm not sure what it is.

If you try doing something new for each era, and end up getting it wrong, then the company that gets it right is the one that dominates the market. WotC is most certainly not interested in setting a precedent that would allow a different company to dominate the market for a decade.

Quote from: migo on June 08, 2023, 11:56:50 AM
2e wasn't representing a generic 90s fantasy, it was a bunch of different subgenres.

2e always felt very Ren Faire Fantasy to me, whatever the setting.

Quote from: Omega on June 08, 2023, 04:15:17 AM
VERY strongly disagree that D&D should be topical.

That is exactly what got 2e and 4e in trouble and is currently making a mess of 5e and like 75% of all other RPGs.
 
We need less "Trendy!" and more setting/rules/whatever to play a game rather than play some designer or companies agenda.

2e and 4e aren't actually topical enough for what I ask. I'm thinking of almost a complete rewrite every edition of the reference pool with almost nothing left of the old edition.

Fantasy doesn't have an era-based Zeitgeist. It has a current hot property and a bunch of hack imitators trying to catch a bit of the overflow of the lightning in a bottle (ex. 3e's art style looking pretty much like Peter Jackson LotR concept art is absolutely no accident).

Just find the licensed RPG (or same genre expy) released as close to that property's breakout and you're pretty much at "mission accomplished."

Quote from: MeganovaStella on June 07, 2023, 11:38:45 PM
It is my opinion that in order to make a better game, a game must be topical. Not topical in the sense of 'must reflect current opinions', but topical in the sense of 'fit the generation's expectation of what fantasy should be'. Whether it be Dying Earth or Naruto, DND is a fantasy game and so should be what the people imagine fantasy to be.

People who want to make a completely different game should make a completely different game, and not tie themselves to D&D.  The only reason to do what you suggest would be a rather cynical attempt to capitalize on the existing network effect while keeping nothing that had created it in the first place. 

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on June 08, 2023, 02:05:31 PM
People who want to make a completely different game should make a completely different game, and not tie themselves to D&D.  The only reason to do what you suggest would be a rather cynical attempt to capitalize on the existing network effect while keeping nothing that had created it in the first place.

Sounds like you're familiar with the current crop of SJWs, sir. Remember in Ye Olde Dayes when a bunch of people looked at D&D, decided it was crap, and made games like Runequest, Tunnels and Trolls, Chivalry and Sorcery, etc.? Who has time for that? Just mold D&D into your ideal Seattle-esque 21st century circle-jerk and reap the benefits of the name.