Greetings!

For one group in my Thandor world, I've come to title it "The Steppe Campaign"--as opposed to another group I have going, "The Barbarian Campaign".

Now, yes, there are standard economic systems and equipment lists established within the rulebook. In this case, I am using the new ShadowDark game.

Pretty basic, simple stuff, in regards to economic dynamics and basic equipment lists.

Now, for me, something of a challenge arises to the fore--when the players of "The Steppe Campaign" have traveled into an environment of the Thandor world that *ISN'T* basic, Dark Ages/Medieval in scope. No, the economy is vast, rich, and highly advanced. Gold is everywhere, fine copper and bronze, good steel weapons and armour. A dynamic, coin-based economy, even while various bartering customs are still maintained in many areas. The clothing is bright, vivid, and colourful, and embraces entirely different styles and expectations.

Food, and restaurants. Yes, the food is very different. Exotic, spicy, and often hot. Weird plants, vegetables, and roots. Fish that the players have never heard of before. Strange animal meats, like Yak, Water Buffalo, Crocodiles, Snakes, strange birds, and various kinds of monkeys.

Then, too, perhaps some various kinds of dinosaurs. Some might be domesticated, and therefore contributing to the local cuisine, and the economy.

How much should a Palanquin cost? And the four or six jacked slaves to carry you around the city?

It is a huge project I am being sucked into, so I am doing it somewhat on the hoof, so to speak. I have some notes and material written, of course, but it is never enough. Or unforeseen priorities develop, like this. I have all of the history, the politics, the religion, done up for the incoming region, but some of the more particular, game minutia, like this, I have largely neglected.

So, how do you guys go about handling this kind of stuff? Any ideas or suggestions is much appreciated, my friends.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

You can look at my historical thread for some prices (been taking a break due to workload) that go up into the 1400s for some ideas of what some things might cost.

I tend not to get into economics because it doesn't interest me much. I like encountering different tech levels and customs though. Again, I can be conflicted because I like some cultures to have distinctive, say, weapons and armor. I don't want eager traders upending things so everyone has repeating crossbows and high-quality steel swords. I was toying with the idea in TSR's Hollow World, where there is an effect which provides benefits to using the gear of your own culture. I haven't actually settled on anything I really like yet.

When I'm looking for info on cultures I get it from everywhere. Internet teaching materials, gaming references, history books (sometimes on a middle school level for brevity). Because there is so much source material to choose from I just have to draw the line somewhere. And I usually have to put my own spin on things so I don't get lawyered by some history buff who wants to argue every feature.

Economics abhors a vacuum.  Two such totally different economies in proximity to each other is an inherently unstable situation.  As with any unstable situation in an RPG setting, you can go with one of three basic approaches, or some variation/combination of them:

1. Ignore it.  This isn't "realistic".  So tolerance for this will vary, not only by person, but by person over time.  People can suspend disbelief in some ways and not others, and some suspensions hold up better for sustained play longer than others.

2. Have specific but broad reasons why the economic changes do not happen.  Gods are obviously handy here. So is geography, up to a point.  A vast and nigh impassible mountain range between the two cultures will slow things down.  Even more so if a god of the mountains doesn't like caravans or armies crossing the handful of passes.  Or something equally extreme, such as a very xenophobic culture.  Still,this will not hold up forever.  Point being, that the vacuum can be very slow in adjusting, but it is adjusting. One likely effect is smuggling, black markets, and other back door economics.

3. Embrace it and play out the change.  After all, a vacuum getting filled is going to cause all kinds of chaos and events, which is fodder for the campaign.  You don't need a perfect economic simulator for it, either.  Just some thoughtful, runaway inflation and its effects, including political and social upheaval.   

To me, this is one of the great benefits of using multiple settings.  For example, the setting I'm using right now is in flux.  I deliberately made it that way.  Over the course of the play over the next few years, the setting will change.  I fully expect some cultures to shrink and others to expand.  So I'm leaning heavily on option 3.  Specifically, I'm presuming there was a lot of reasons why up until recently option 2 was in place (in the history of the setting) and part of the focus of the campaign is what happens once those constraints are mostly lifted (or in the process of being lifted, which is its own kind of turmoil). 

This is akin to what estar talks about when allowing players to "trash your setting".  Well, you can also allow events to deliberately "trash your setting".  And you can also allow events and/or players to "pick up the trash", so to speak.

From a practical standpoint, I find what ACKS does to be a bit too involved for my tastes.  I don't need or want that kind of rigor in the economics. But I do want some dynamism.  I can get that with tactical and strategic setting of prices.  For example, I've got the costs of armor, weapons, and clothes inflated when the campaign starts.  If, by dedicated effort and some luck, the players manage to improve that situation, then I'll give them an updated price list.  When they go somewhere that has the industry, I give them a discount, often in the 20% to 30% range.  (Go where the clothes are made, you can get a discount, but it's not like modern times, where it's a tiny fraction of "retail" because the tech level is such that clothes are expensive and difficult to make--think late dark ages).  Meanwhile, due to magic and knowledge, I've got food relatively cheap.  There's not widespread famine because there is a concerted effort by the various political powers to avoid it (due to recent history to the contrary) and magic/tech better than what was historically available in late dark ages.

That does not really produce a dynamic economy.  It does provide some notable contrast that makes it feel like a dynamic economy to the players, with relatively little effort on my part.  It would not hold up if the players were, for example, interested in playing a Merchants and Marauders style game, where they tried to exploit a dynamic economy.

I had an idea years ago that I started but never completed, but my concept was to type equipment lists into and Excel spreadsheet and tie each price to a box where I could type in an index number so that if characters arrived in town with wagons of loot I could just change that one index number and the prices would all adjust. I could print out a new sheet every once in a while as prices changed.

I was inspired somewhat by a movie about California during the gold rush, where prices would be posted on painted signs but vendors would be crossing out prices and writing new ones on the sign. The notion was that prices could change wildly as prospectors came in with more gold.

Some RPGs have cities/rural prices. Food is cheaper in the countryside, plate armor is more expensive (if available at all).

You could extrapolate these division to megacities: things are even more expensive in megacities, but there is even more stuff available, etc. In the wilderness, things might revert to barter.

Sure, if the prices vary too much, there might be a reason for the limited competition: guilds, walls, tariffs, etc.

Or, if you want to sell in the big evil city without bribing the right authorities, you simply get disappeared. Sounds like an interesting adventure seed!

I tend to handwave economic details, with the exception of stuff that adds color, like local cuisine based on the local flora and fauna (like dragon stakes, or fairy fruits), what type of alcohol they produce in that area (ale, wine, rum, etc.) and if there's a special kind or brand popular in the area (Dwarven Stormhammer Whisky, Purple Dragon Ale, etc.), and what type of stuff a trader caravan they might be traveling with is carrying. But I usually don't delve deep into pricing, cuz it makes my eyes glaze over, and players don't tend to care about it too much, outside of equipment, which rarely even comes up, since there are no rules for gear wear and tear (though, I usually declare stuff still breaks on a 1/Crit Fail, or whatever) and all weapons and armor of the same type are mechanically identical, which doesn't inspire players to check out what gear is available all the time.

Plus D&D economy tends to be so messed up with the amount of treasure PCs accumulate vs what the books tell you that laborers supposedly make in wages, it isn't even worth it to go into so much detail sometimes.

ACKS should help if you want to get down to the coin level.

Quote from: finarvyn on May 17, 2023, 08:46:13 AM
I had an idea years ago that I started but never completed, but my concept was to type equipment lists into and Excel spreadsheet and tie each price to a box where I could type in an index number so that if characters arrived in town with wagons of loot I could just change that one index number and the prices would all adjust. I could print out a new sheet every once in a while as prices changed.

I was inspired somewhat by a movie about California during the gold rush, where prices would be posted on painted signs but vendors would be crossing out prices and writing new ones on the sign. The notion was that prices could change wildly as prospectors came in with more gold.

Greetings!

Yes, I understand! *Laughing* I too, occasionally have bouts where I am greatly tempted to create some uber-completist kind of ducumentation. So much work though can go into such an effort, though I also can see a payoff with having technology incorporate a kind of overlay procedure which thus increases the system's overall flexibility and detail. There are certainly advantages to getting to such a point, right?

I don't enjoy *not having answers* for many things though. As a GM, it can quite easily bother me, and inspire periods of frenzied, obsessed work on some project or another. Crazy, huh? *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 17, 2023, 09:40:32 AM
I tend to handwave economic details, with the exception of stuff that adds color, like local cuisine based on the local flora and fauna (like dragon stakes, or fairy fruits), what type of alcohol they produce in that area (ale, wine, rum, etc.) and if there's a special kind or brand popular in the area (Dwarven Stormhammer Whisky, Purple Dragon Ale, etc.), and what type of stuff a trader caravan they might be traveling with is carrying. But I usually don't delve deep into pricing, cuz it makes my eyes glaze over, and players don't tend to care about it too much, outside of equipment, which rarely even comes up, since there are no rules for gear wear and tear (though, I usually declare stuff still breaks on a 1/Crit Fail, or whatever) and all weapons and armor of the same type are mechanically identical, which doesn't inspire players to check out what gear is available all the time.

Plus D&D economy tends to be so messed up with the amount of treasure PCs accumulate vs what the books tell you that laborers supposedly make in wages, it isn't even worth it to go into so much detail sometimes.

Greetings!

Hey VisionStorm!! I love the little details, my friend! I agree, though. I often handwave lots of stuff. Getting into the weeds of economics too much...can easily become a headache with diminishing returns.

I also like to highlight key items though, like you mentioned. Providing a basic framework for different regional products. I think that having at least that is an important aspect for immersion, you know?

Plus, it can contribute in some interesting ways for adventures, plots, and politics, and all that.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I believe the difference is "a living breathing environment" verses a "painted on backdrop".
For the players it likely rarely matters as they only care about what they directly engage in.

It is a sometimes a labor of love that GMs get upset about, when players don't want to sit through the detailed descriptions.
It does however keep the world consistent and makes extrapolating answers quickly, much easier.

I don't generally pay much attention to the exact economics, but I've tried to think in general terms about what each region produces and imports. That should be based on tech, terrain, and culture, and importantly, it should tie in with what the heroes are doing, because if it doesn't, so what? Eg. I made up a magic user who could create iron. I'd set up that her part of the world imports iron from another region, which is now at war with them. So the important upshot was, the locals generally are totally fine with the heroine making as much iron as she wants -- but not with her making locally produced products like wool.

For more specific tools, I've used the "Suns of Gold" book designed for the "Stars Without Number" RPG. (Written for 1E but is adaptable to 2E or to another system.) Its logic involves putting tags on worlds and on goods, so that a "Lawless" world will move up on some price chart for any product with "Military" in its description, ie. they pay well for weapons. Each region also has a Trouble rating reflecting the chance that a big business deal will go wrong, forcing the PCs to eat a serious loss or do something adventurous to fix it. Eg. "the local government decides to confiscate half the goods 'for the people'." With these mechanics you can get adventure content just out of rolling on the tables, then having quests grow out of fixing the problems or persuading the locals to accept a better offer.

There's also a series of books by "Board Enterprises" that discusses various aspects of a fantasy world and includes a lot of price information. Personally I don't care about their price lists, but get some value out of the world-building ideas like how a fantasy market and festival might work, or exactly what it's like to make and sell potions.

Mostly keep it simple.  If I need a price I can just roll a couple dice. 

I keep the economy as it is vague and informal.  Except for large cities with trade guilds, the whole world is on the 'informal commence economy'.  So more  like 'e-bay', 'yard sales' and 'flea markets' and like 'every WalMart has Item A for Price B'.

The oldest...oldest sales trick...is to not have set prices.  Just have the seller say "what do you think it's worth?"  If the buyer gives a high over price, then the seller just says "sold!".  If the buyer gives a low price, they can always pop out the 'real' price.

Build you base list of items in your game based on the DMG 1E.

Pg 90 Economics

OK, hmm... so certain things can boom the economy.  Like bringing in a dragon hoard to the town.  Factor in how much total money the town will have in one day, allocate that money to the shops.  Say you want to give the town a total of 10K gp.  You have 10 shops, you allocate or roll.  Maybe you want to set a minimum for Black Smiths, Miscellaneous Goods, Magic Item, Scrolls or Potions, but you want to set it to be totally allocated.  Now you set a factor of goods spent in town.

If players spend 33% of a towns total wealth: Roll Inflation the following week (20% to 40% roll D20)

If players spend 66% of a towns total wealth: Roll inflation the following two days (80% to 100% roll D20)

If players spend 90% of a towns total wealth: Roll Inflation the following day (100% to 200% roll D100)

Next, go to the PHB from 1E pg, and build an Excel spreadsheet with your worlds base cost for goods.  Now in that spreadsheet make sure you have one cell called discount, set it to one.  For all of your prices it would be 1gp * discount right.  So you can now change the discount based on what you rolled to impact the prices quickly.

Figure out what merchant factors can raise said goods?

Merchant Traits 2d6:
2: Enemy pays 70% sells 140% and whatever they buy the goods break, animals flee and come back to vendor, magic item has a curse or was stolen, working for the BBEG and will tell him all about the party.  The guy will be sickly sweet to them.
3-4: Greedy pays 70% sells 140%
5: Ignorant pays 85% sells 115%
6-8: Normal pays 80% sells 133%
9: Slaver pays 80% sells 140% - has some slaves for sale and if you buy will give you a 5% slavers discount, every day they have the slave roll a D20, on a 1 a high level party goes after them for slavery
10: Insane pays 50% base + 1d100 and sells 80% 1d100.  If he rolls low and the party buys up his good at a low rate a family member hunts them down and berates them for abusing an insane man publicly.
11: Huckster pays 80% and sells 133% any potions or scrolls have a 50% failure rate, try the Wild Magic table chart from prior D&D editions
12: Priestly pays 80% sells 120% to players of similar alignments opposing he won't sell - if player is of same faith 10% discount for the good ones

Figure out a base price for magic items.  Shadowdark doesn't have the uncommon, rare, very rare, legendary and artifact so you'll have to come up with your own values them.  I have a random system for magic item price.

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2023, 08:21:52 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 17, 2023, 09:40:32 AM
I tend to handwave economic details, with the exception of stuff that adds color, like local cuisine based on the local flora and fauna (like dragon stakes, or fairy fruits), what type of alcohol they produce in that area (ale, wine, rum, etc.) and if there's a special kind or brand popular in the area (Dwarven Stormhammer Whisky, Purple Dragon Ale, etc.), and what type of stuff a trader caravan they might be traveling with is carrying. But I usually don't delve deep into pricing, cuz it makes my eyes glaze over, and players don't tend to care about it too much, outside of equipment, which rarely even comes up, since there are no rules for gear wear and tear (though, I usually declare stuff still breaks on a 1/Crit Fail, or whatever) and all weapons and armor of the same type are mechanically identical, which doesn't inspire players to check out what gear is available all the time.

Plus D&D economy tends to be so messed up with the amount of treasure PCs accumulate vs what the books tell you that laborers supposedly make in wages, it isn't even worth it to go into so much detail sometimes.

Greetings!

Hey VisionStorm!! I love the little details, my friend! I agree, though. I often handwave lots of stuff. Getting into the weeds of economics too much...can easily become a headache with diminishing returns.

I also like to highlight key items though, like you mentioned. Providing a basic framework for different regional products. I think that having at least that is an important aspect for immersion, you know?

Plus, it can contribute in some interesting ways for adventures, plots, and politics, and all that.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Pretty much! Knowing what sort of specialty goods they sell at the towns that PCs frequent can provide some interesting hooks and ideas for adventures that players can relate to. Like what if the local brewery that makes the PCs favorite brand of ale is having trouble and has to shut down cuz someone sabotaged their operation and now the inn is all out of ale? Now the PCs are invested in having to help, otherwise there's gonna be a revolt in town once all the workers don't get their ale either. Plus they might get a couple of casks of craft ale as a reward once the brewery is up and running again.