Quote from: BedrockBrendan;611214I am of the opinion that thissort of thing should be determined by the setting. In a standard setting it probably isn't great fit, but I like campaigns where the races are a bit different and are tailored to the world. One way to make a place unique andinteresting is play around with assumptions about the various races (though for that to work you haveto understand what those assumptions are and in this case dwarves not using magic is an important one).

Pretty much this.  If I were going to use a dwarf that fit the standard form of the dwarf (which I do, frequently, because I like that type), then I'd say no to it.

On the other hand, I've played a dwarven wizard from a nomadic dwarven desert culture with an emphasis on divination.  At that point it's so far from the normative dwarf that it's really not an issue.

Quote from: RPGPundit;611104So, here's the question, mainly for the old-school D&Ders: are you of the opinion that Dwarves should be able to have magic-user classes (either as NPCs or as PCs)?

When I played 1e AD&D, dwarves were as per the implied setting of the rules: higher resistance to magic, no non-cleric magic-users, dwarf clerics as npcs.

I don't have a problem with a dungeon master making an exception to that, and I knew a couple who did - as npcs - but I do think they run the risk of turning out to be 'laughing Vulcans,' incongruous for the sake of incongruity.

In other games - WFRP, 3e D&D - no problem.

It depends upon the campaign setting. Not every D&D setting is Greyhawk.

Quote from: RPGPundit;611104So, here's the question, mainly for the old-school D&Ders: are you of the opinion that Dwarves should be able to have magic-user classes (either as NPCs or as PCs)? Or are you dead-set against it?

In either case, explain your reasons.

RPGPundit

Why not Dwarven Wizards? I think they might be closer to eldritch craftsmen or artificers, but there is no reason why they should not exist.

Quote from: Novastar;611279This has been my more recent explanation, to make logical sense why Dwarven culture remains "Tolkien-esque" in my setting. Dwarves are smart enough to see the benefit of magic, but also see it as inherently corrupting to the wielder.

My own explanation is that dwarves are exceptionally materialistic, no-nonsense individuals who don't just see magic as corrupting, but possibly not even real. "There's got to be a catch, you can't *really* make things happen with silly magic words and gestures" is the typical dwarven opinion. Not to mention the rituals seem a little undignified, from a dwarven viewpoint.

So, there's no native dwarven magical tradition. I'm thinking of re-skinning elven magic as aromatherapy/elixir-based, to make it distinct, but elves at least *do* believe in magic.

My clerics are various monotheisms and philosophies and are distinctly human in origin. By default, they exclude non-humans. Dwarves do have religious rituals, but they don't need to have a cleric class for that. Elves don't have clerics *or* priests, because their philosophy is somewhere between solipsism and megalomania; they are all about dominance of the Will over Nature, which explains why they have magic.

Any of these restrictions could be overcome in play, as I mentioned earlier. But basically there's got to be a reason why the church would accept a non-human as a priest, or a reason why a magician would teach magic to a dwarf... and there has to be repercussions from going against one's culture. It's best to work this out through play.

Quote from: Melan;611194This is one of those questions which are more smoke than fire. In other words, who gives a hoot?

All I am going to say is that a setting where a race is put into this level of complete actual disadvantage requires a GM to make fantastic adjustments to make the dwarves be able to survive as a non-serf class. 99% of settings with Races unable to keep up with casting races showed fundamental illogic from the get go.

This was a setting-breaking illogic from the elder days for me.

The whole "everyone can do anything in much the same way" design paradigm just doesn't sit well with me.

Dwarven rune magic or blacksmith magic, sure. But dwarven wizard magic being the same as elven magic as human magic...bleh, it leads to too much min/maxing to figure out which racial stats with which feats leads to the best spells, and if any saddle points pop up, then the whole system collapses.

Some old D&Disms are fun and some are ridiculous and fun, but I think the anti-magical dwarves business is just kind of boring so I try not to do that.

Quote from: RPGPundit;611104So, here's the question, mainly for the old-school D&Ders: are you of the opinion that Dwarves should be able to have magic-user classes (either as NPCs or as PCs)? Or are you dead-set against it?

In either case, explain your reasons.

RPGPundit

Sure but implemented in something that feels Dwarvish. Which is why dwarven magic users are generally known as Ironmasters. Which I implement using a custom class called the Runecaster. Basically a magic user that can only cast spells by using runes i.e.  scrolls renamed.

In Tolkien, 'wizards' we actually see doing anything other than just stabbing people with a sword or being undead are godlings - Gandalf and Saruman.  We know the elves have 'magic', but they don't have any 'wizards'.  Likewise, we know that dwarves have magic (the spells layered on the troll treasure), but they don't have 'wizards'.  

Personally, I think that dwarves should have some wizards.  I do like the idea of cultural differences.  I like dwarven wizards to focus on earth/fire magic - I definitely like to discourage necromancers and the such - but I do that primarily through cultural reasons - a dwarf could become a necromancer, and might be even more horrifying because even more so than a human, the's turning his back on the mores of his society.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;611393In Tolkien, 'wizards' we actually see doing anything other than just stabbing people with a sword or being undead are godlings - Gandalf and Saruman.  We know the elves have 'magic', but they don't have any 'wizards'.  Likewise, we know that dwarves have magic (the spells layered on the troll treasure), but they don't have 'wizards'.  

Personally, I think that dwarves should have some wizards.  I do like the idea of cultural differences.  I like dwarven wizards to focus on earth/fire magic - I definitely like to discourage necromancers and the such - but I do that primarily through cultural reasons - a dwarf could become a necromancer, and might be even more horrifying because even more so than a human, the's turning his back on the mores of his society.

I like to have Dwarves use  magic at the forge, creating enchanted items. Elves I like using song and words as magic.

Quote from: TristramEvans;611107It would depend entirely on the setting for me. Alot of D&D-esque fantasy goes with the Tolkien-esque view that Dwarves create/craft magic items but don't use magic. However,  outside of the Norse myths Tolkien was drawing upon there's no basis for this in folklore as a whole. Of course, D&D draws more upon Tolkien than it ever did actual folklore or myths, so I'd expect a bog-standard D&d game to have restrictions on Dwarf magic--users, if not banning them outright.

Except in D&D, Dwarves don't get to use magic AND they don't get to craft magic items.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Dan Davenport;611109I'm fine with Dwarves using magic. "The Dwarves of yore made mighty spells," after all. And the Dwarves of The Hobbit cast spells of protection over their Troll loot. Neither of which amounts to Dwarven wizards, of course, but it's a far cry from Dwarves being unable to use magic at all.

Good point!

RPGPundit

Quote from: elfandghost;611114If Dwarves have full access to magic and can be full-on mages, magicians, enchanters etc. then they simply become short, stumpy humans with a bonus to their constitution. It makes their culture seem redundant, their engineering unremarkable and their love of fighting senseless. However, if they do have magic then it should be runic magic, held be a select few or used at certain times.

Yup. I agree with this.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;611514Except in D&D, Dwarves don't get to use magic AND they don't get to craft magic items.

RPGPundit

Which I see as yet another failing if old school D&D. Lest we forget that the Dwarves were the crafters of the gods in the Norse tradition.