So, here's the question, mainly for the old-school D&Ders: are you of the opinion that Dwarves should be able to have magic-user classes (either as NPCs or as PCs)? Or are you dead-set against it?
In either case, explain your reasons.
RPGPundit
It would depend entirely on the setting for me. Alot of D&D-esque fantasy goes with the Tolkien-esque view that Dwarves create/craft magic items but don't use magic. However, outside of the Norse myths Tolkien was drawing upon there's no basis for this in folklore as a whole. Of course, D&D draws more upon Tolkien than it ever did actual folklore or myths, so I'd expect a bog-standard D&d game to have restrictions on Dwarf magic--users, if not banning them outright.
I'm fine with Dwarves using magic. "The Dwarves of yore made mighty spells," after all. And the Dwarves of The Hobbit cast spells of protection over their Troll loot. Neither of which amounts to Dwarven wizards, of course, but it's a far cry from Dwarves being unable to use magic at all.
The old-school DnD guys in my group dislike Dwarves that practice magic. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it though. How would dwarves enchant weapons if they don't know spells to enchant? I know that in one of the Drizzt novels it explains it as some sort of force-of-will, but that sounds like a big steaming pile of bullshit to me.
If Dwarves have full access to magic and can be full-on mages, magicians, enchanters etc. then they simply become short, stumpy humans with a bonus to their constitution. It makes their culture seem redundant, their engineering unremarkable and their love of fighting senseless. However, if they do have magic then it should be runic magic, held be a select few or used at certain times. With that said, I could imagine a rouge Dwarven wizard corrupted by something; though such an individual would have paid an heavy price for such gifts and be very rare.
I think this is where Basic D&D gets it right and with Elves and the other PC species too. Well, almost! Once you get to AD&D you get Elves who are one with nature but can't be Druids and who are one with magic but get no bonuses to it - which makes no sense at all? Then, into 3rd Edition the thing goes extreme with the different species all became human variants with nothing remarkable about them at all.
No to Dwarf wizards or for that matter Halflings being anything other than being Hobbits - especially them being dual-wielding barbarian/ranger/*special whatever with 20 strength. However, if a DM wants to make an except to the rule then fine - it is his or her game, I just don't see why it has to be mandatory. I always let there be Elf Druids or Paladins and even a none-spell-casting Dwarf Bard.
Yes to Dwarven Wizards. Imaginary people can do imaginary things.
It really should be up to the individual group to decide what kind of setting they want.
I've got no oath to break with D&D... but after reading up on Norse dwarves the other day... and seeing nothing about them being adverse to magic (they don't like sunlight though) I'm inclined to have them be more inherently magical (and taller)... though likely not actual wizards.
At least not wizards in the same way that humans can be. Maybe limit them to more innate stuff that's related to rocks and earth... walking through walls and turning earth to mud... etc.
Quote from: elfandghost;611114If Dwarves have full access to magic and can be full-on mages, magicians, enchanters etc. then they simply become short, stumpy humans with a bonus to their constitution. It makes their culture seem redundant, their engineering unremarkable and their love of fighting senseless. However, if they do have magic then it should be runic magic, held be a select few or used at certain times. With that said, I could imagine a rouge Dwarven wizard corrupted by something; though such an individual would have paid an heavy price for such gifts and be very rare.
I think this is where Basic D&D gets it right and with Elves and the other PC species too. Well, almost! Once you get to AD&D you get Elves who are one with nature but can't be Druids and who are one with magic but get no bonuses to it - which makes no sense at all? Then, into 3rd Edition the thing goes extreme with the different species all became human variants with nothing remarkable about them at all.
No to Dwarf wizards or for that matter Halflings being anything other than being Hobbits - especially them being dual-wielding barbarian/ranger/*special whatever with 20 strength. However, if a DM wants to make an except to the rule then fine - it is his or her game, I just don't see why it has to be mandatory. I always let there be Elf Druids or Paladins and even a none-spell-casting Dwarf Bard.
There is a lot so truth to this. races need to be defined and distict. Personally I would go back to setting. The GM needs to define their setting and through that the things that all the available Pc races can do.
There is no problem with dwarven mages if they fit your setting and if they are distinct from human mages. I like the Runic stuff fittingly Germanic, easy to work out some rules for.
One of my pet gripes is GMs seem willign to spend hours detailing the contents of each room in their dungeon or hove in their city but less willing to actually lay down the setting and think about how everthign fits. D&D works best when the GM takes the available material and actually thinks about how it all fits together in their world and edits it appropriately. So A paladin can be Lawful evil and have different powers if there is strong LE diety in your world and they have a militant order of unholy knights. Elves can be Monks if there is an insetting reason for it and of course Dwarves can be wizards, if it works for your game.
I like the idea of a very, very few dwarves being able to become wizards.
Reason being that fantastic things are possible, and player characters tend to be extraordinary.
Still prefer the bulk of the dwarves to be incabable.
Reason being flavor I guess.
What races are available and what classes are available to those races is setting dependent to my mind.
In a standard fantasy setting, if a dwarf can be a magic-user, then dwarves don't get the bonus to save vs. spells. I take that as an innate anti-magical nature, which would interfere with spell-casting.
But on the other hand, I would allow becoming a restricted class or surpassing a level limit as a result of actual play. You want to be a dwarf wizard? Or an elven baron? Figure out how!
Quote from: talysman;611130In a standard fantasy setting, if a dwarf can be a magic-user, then dwarves don't get the bonus to save vs. spells. I take that as an innate anti-magical nature, which would interfere with spell-casting.
But on the other hand, I would allow becoming a restricted class or surpassing a level limit as a result of actual play. You want to be a dwarf wizard? Or an elven baron? Figure out how!
See I disagree with the first part. In a standard fantasy setting.... what is one of those? earthsea? Oerth? Dark Sun? GreyHawk, Newhon, etc etc
People need to spend more time thinking about their settings and less time taking the generic off the shelf setting and using it because they don't give a crap (sorry got a bit ranty towards the end).
Dwarves should use magic. Many of the most powerful mages of myth were dwarves.
For my AD&D, dwarven magic-users are a no-go. Although I do allow PC dwarven clerics (and they're listed as NPC only in the Player's Handbook).
However, in, say Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play yeah definitely.
It depends on the "feel" of the game I'm setting, the tone. They're not in Greyhawk as written so, again, no-go in my AD&D...
I'm fine with the idea of Dwarves using magic (as others have said it's got roots in myth).
It's just that I have a hard time squaring the Vancian magic system with all it's whimsy, with the way I see Dwarves using magic.
Generally I prefer to leave Dwarven magic outside the rules. Dwarf magic involves runes earthmagic dependent on a deep connection with one's homeland and complicated group rituals performed by Dwarven elders.
Not really a PC thing.
I play a Dwarven Wizard (Trogdor the Burninator) in LFR for 4e, but in my OD&D setting, dwarves do not cast spells. Instead, they have NPC rituals to create magical items.
In my setting, Dwarves feel the casual and fleeting magic of elves, mages and clerics is petty compared to the permanence of their mighty rituals that can literally move mountains.
Quote from: RandallS;611129What races are available and what classes are available to those races is setting dependent to my mind.
I fully agree. Class/Race decisions are key components to defining a setting.
I fully believe that Dwarves can me mages, however, I feel that its such a rare occurance that any PC under my game would have a heck of a time attempting to level up. There are so few dwarven mages that those who do know can charge astronomical fees. Also, it takes a very special kind of dwarf to be able to wield magic. Training would be very very costly.
This is one of those questions which are more smoke than fire. In other words, who gives a hoot?
Quote from: Melan;611194This is one of those questions which are more smoke than fire. In other words, who gives a hoot?
I think it's just one of those chatty threads where it's interesting to see where people's preferences stand. There are plenty of threads here like that.
I will grant that.
I am of the opinion that thissort of thing should be determined by the setting. In a standard setting it probably isn't great fit, but I like campaigns where the races are a bit different and are tailored to the world. One way to make a place unique andinteresting is play around with assumptions about the various races (though for that to work you haveto understand what those assumptions are and in this case dwarves not using magic is an important one).
A good question, like others, I'm biased depending on the setting. There are more than a few folk-tales/fairy stories with dwarves or dwarflike creatures who use magic.
Some version of Scandinavian Trolls fit the "Dwarf" mould as do some versions of the Svartalf, so depending on what you mean by "Dwarf" you can have a pretty common number of wizards to draw from as inspiration.
Many human's with dwarfish stature (due to their perception in the past) were presented as magic users of vile natures. Mostly because the "different=bad," view our ancestors had. That too can be used as inspiration.
I generally prefer dwarves as mystically empowered craftsmen--able to make enchanted items. I also like rune-magic for dwarf folk. True spellcasters tend to be rare in my preference list, but I'm not going to say its a given for a setting I create.
In fact if using AD&D, I'd probably allow it because of the nature of magical crafting. (BECM solves this by letting dwarves create magic from their special dwarf forge) but it would make sense if adventuring dwarves could be wizards then essentially dual class to warrior later in life as they settle down to protect their home and be craftsmen. They learn magic, but give it up when they settle down except for fashioning items with their spells.
Quote from: Melan;611194This is one of those questions which are more smoke than fire. In other words, who gives a hoot?
Badwrongfun!
Perhaps it's Dwarven society that shuns magic-users.
- They're an embarrassment and we won't talk about the abberations (elven mixed-blood? shudder)
- Magic makes a dwarf lazy. Why spend hours at the forge when you can just transmogrify the ore into a sword. Bah, where's the artistry, work builds character.
- Remember when the Ironhammer clan delved too far beneath their mountain hall? They awoke "The Nameless Creature That Devours All" and the entire clan (and mountain for that matter) was consumed in a flurry of agony and destruction. Fortunately, we discovered that the nameless creature is drawn towards the arcane echoes produced magic, so as long as we don't cast arcane spells, it shouldn't find us. (Of course, the whole thing is just legend... or is it?)
There's no biological reason why a Dwarf (i.e. your character) can't be a magic-user, but if the the clan finds out, you'll be sent packing (at best), fed to the troglodytes (at worst). That would explain why the PC is away from home.
Yet if you've ever played higher than name level, you quickly realize all demihumans are second class citizens to actual humans.
It makes their culture and all irrelevant and stupid as well, considering they can never be THAT awesome.
Quote from: Blackhand;611247Yet if you've ever played higher than name level, you quickly realize all demihumans are second class citizens to actual humans.
It makes their culture and all irrelevant and stupid as well, considering they can never be THAT awesome.
The D&D RC (pp. 145-146) had some very, very interesting stuff about demihuman clan relics and how they could be used to create magic items, from ye olde
+1 sword to magic ships that sailed through earth and stone. Dwarven clans jealously guard their Forges of Power, Elves sit around their Trees of Life probably playing the guitar and smoking pot, and even Halflings have a Blackflame to tend.
I've usually had dwarf casters as clerics, not magic users, and those who were casters were more like alchemists than actual magic users.
However, I don't see why you couldn't if you didn't want to.
Quote from: languagegeek;611235Perhaps it's Dwarven society that shuns magic-users.
- They're an embarrassment and we won't talk about the abberations (elven mixed-blood? shudder)
- Magic makes a dwarf lazy. Why spend hours at the forge when you can just transmogrify the ore into a sword. Bah, where's the artistry, work builds character.
- Remember when the Ironhammer clan delved too far beneath their mountain hall? They awoke "The Nameless Creature That Devours All" and the entire clan (and mountain for that matter) was consumed in a flurry of agony and destruction. Fortunately, we discovered that the nameless creature is drawn towards the arcane echoes produced magic, so as long as we don't cast arcane spells, it shouldn't find us. (Of course, the whole thing is just legend... or is it?)
There's no biological reason why a Dwarf (i.e. your character) can't be a magic-user, but if the the clan finds out, you'll be sent packing (at best), fed to the troglodytes (at worst). That would explain why the PC is away from home.
This has been my more recent explanation, to make logical sense why Dwarven culture remains "Tolkien-esque" in my setting. Dwarves are smart enough to see the benefit of magic, but also see it as inherently corrupting to the wielder.
I'm not what you'd call an old schooler, but here goes:
When 3E was first released, I was a little uncomfortable with the thought of dwarven wizards, and this lasted until I started seeing pictures of them in the art of the game. They just looked right to me, at least how the artists rendered them. From that point I've been comfortable with them.
All races should have access to all classes. I don't even like PrCs or feats that have racial limitations.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;611214I am of the opinion that thissort of thing should be determined by the setting. In a standard setting it probably isn't great fit, but I like campaigns where the races are a bit different and are tailored to the world. One way to make a place unique andinteresting is play around with assumptions about the various races (though for that to work you haveto understand what those assumptions are and in this case dwarves not using magic is an important one).
Pretty much this. If I were going to use a dwarf that fit the standard form of the dwarf (which I do, frequently, because I like that type), then I'd say no to it.
On the other hand, I've played a dwarven wizard from a nomadic dwarven desert culture with an emphasis on divination. At that point it's so far from the normative dwarf that it's really not an issue.
Quote from: RPGPundit;611104So, here's the question, mainly for the old-school D&Ders: are you of the opinion that Dwarves should be able to have magic-user classes (either as NPCs or as PCs)?
When I played 1e
AD&D, dwarves were as per the implied setting of the rules: higher resistance to magic, no non-cleric magic-users, dwarf clerics as npcs.
I don't have a problem with a dungeon master making an exception to that, and I knew a couple who did - as npcs - but I do think they run the risk of turning out to be 'laughing Vulcans,' incongruous for the sake of incongruity.
In other games -
WFRP, 3e
D&D - no problem.
It depends upon the campaign setting. Not every D&D setting is Greyhawk.
Quote from: RPGPundit;611104So, here's the question, mainly for the old-school D&Ders: are you of the opinion that Dwarves should be able to have magic-user classes (either as NPCs or as PCs)? Or are you dead-set against it?
In either case, explain your reasons.
RPGPundit
Why not Dwarven Wizards? I think they might be closer to eldritch craftsmen or artificers, but there is no reason why they should not exist.
Quote from: Novastar;611279This has been my more recent explanation, to make logical sense why Dwarven culture remains "Tolkien-esque" in my setting. Dwarves are smart enough to see the benefit of magic, but also see it as inherently corrupting to the wielder.
My own explanation is that dwarves are exceptionally materialistic, no-nonsense individuals who don't just see magic as corrupting, but possibly not even real. "There's got to be a catch, you can't *really* make things happen with silly magic words and gestures" is the typical dwarven opinion. Not to mention the rituals seem a little undignified, from a dwarven viewpoint.
So, there's no native dwarven magical tradition. I'm thinking of re-skinning elven magic as aromatherapy/elixir-based, to make it distinct, but elves at least *do* believe in magic.
My clerics are various monotheisms and philosophies and are distinctly human in origin. By default, they exclude non-humans. Dwarves do have religious rituals, but they don't need to have a cleric class for that. Elves don't have clerics *or* priests, because their philosophy is somewhere between solipsism and megalomania; they are all about dominance of the Will over Nature, which explains why they have magic.
Any of these restrictions could be overcome in play, as I mentioned earlier. But basically there's got to be a reason why the church would accept a non-human as a priest, or a reason why a magician would teach magic to a dwarf... and there has to be repercussions from going against one's culture. It's best to work this out through play.
Quote from: Melan;611194This is one of those questions which are more smoke than fire. In other words, who gives a hoot?
All I am going to say is that a setting where a race is put into this level of complete actual disadvantage requires a GM to make fantastic adjustments to make the dwarves be able to survive as a non-serf class. 99% of settings with Races unable to keep up with casting races showed fundamental illogic from the get go.
This was a setting-breaking illogic from the elder days for me.
The whole "everyone can do anything in much the same way" design paradigm just doesn't sit well with me.
Dwarven rune magic or blacksmith magic, sure. But dwarven wizard magic being the same as elven magic as human magic...bleh, it leads to too much min/maxing to figure out which racial stats with which feats leads to the best spells, and if any saddle points pop up, then the whole system collapses.
Some old D&Disms are fun and some are ridiculous and fun, but I think the anti-magical dwarves business is just kind of boring so I try not to do that.
Quote from: RPGPundit;611104So, here's the question, mainly for the old-school D&Ders: are you of the opinion that Dwarves should be able to have magic-user classes (either as NPCs or as PCs)? Or are you dead-set against it?
In either case, explain your reasons.
RPGPundit
Sure but implemented in something that feels Dwarvish. Which is why dwarven magic users are generally known as Ironmasters. Which I implement using a custom class called the Runecaster. Basically a magic user that can only cast spells by using runes i.e. scrolls renamed.
In Tolkien, 'wizards' we actually see doing anything other than just stabbing people with a sword or being undead are godlings - Gandalf and Saruman. We know the elves have 'magic', but they don't have any 'wizards'. Likewise, we know that dwarves have magic (the spells layered on the troll treasure), but they don't have 'wizards'.
Personally, I think that dwarves should have some wizards. I do like the idea of cultural differences. I like dwarven wizards to focus on earth/fire magic - I definitely like to discourage necromancers and the such - but I do that primarily through cultural reasons - a dwarf could become a necromancer, and might be even more horrifying because even more so than a human, the's turning his back on the mores of his society.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;611393In Tolkien, 'wizards' we actually see doing anything other than just stabbing people with a sword or being undead are godlings - Gandalf and Saruman. We know the elves have 'magic', but they don't have any 'wizards'. Likewise, we know that dwarves have magic (the spells layered on the troll treasure), but they don't have 'wizards'.
Personally, I think that dwarves should have some wizards. I do like the idea of cultural differences. I like dwarven wizards to focus on earth/fire magic - I definitely like to discourage necromancers and the such - but I do that primarily through cultural reasons - a dwarf could become a necromancer, and might be even more horrifying because even more so than a human, the's turning his back on the mores of his society.
I like to have Dwarves use magic at the forge, creating enchanted items. Elves I like using song and words as magic.
Quote from: TristramEvans;611107It would depend entirely on the setting for me. Alot of D&D-esque fantasy goes with the Tolkien-esque view that Dwarves create/craft magic items but don't use magic. However, outside of the Norse myths Tolkien was drawing upon there's no basis for this in folklore as a whole. Of course, D&D draws more upon Tolkien than it ever did actual folklore or myths, so I'd expect a bog-standard D&d game to have restrictions on Dwarf magic--users, if not banning them outright.
Except in D&D, Dwarves don't get to use magic AND they don't get to craft magic items.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Dan Davenport;611109I'm fine with Dwarves using magic. "The Dwarves of yore made mighty spells," after all. And the Dwarves of The Hobbit cast spells of protection over their Troll loot. Neither of which amounts to Dwarven wizards, of course, but it's a far cry from Dwarves being unable to use magic at all.
Good point!
RPGPundit
Quote from: elfandghost;611114If Dwarves have full access to magic and can be full-on mages, magicians, enchanters etc. then they simply become short, stumpy humans with a bonus to their constitution. It makes their culture seem redundant, their engineering unremarkable and their love of fighting senseless. However, if they do have magic then it should be runic magic, held be a select few or used at certain times.
Yup. I agree with this.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;611514Except in D&D, Dwarves don't get to use magic AND they don't get to craft magic items.
RPGPundit
Which I see as yet another failing if old school D&D. Lest we forget that the Dwarves were the crafters of the gods in the Norse tradition.
Quote from: RPGPundit;611514Except in D&D, Dwarves don't get to use magic AND they don't get to craft magic items.
Umm. What version of D&D are we talking about?
If AD&D 1e or 2e, dwarf clerics could do it.
If BECMI/RC, Forges of Power (RC p. 145) as I mentioned above (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=611255&postcount=26), or dwarf clerics from the Dwarves of Rockhome Gazetteer.
Can't speak for OD&D or Holmes B/X.
Quote from: TristramEvans;611107It would depend entirely on the setting for me. Alot of D&D-esque fantasy goes with the Tolkien-esque view that Dwarves create/craft magic items but don't use magic. However, outside of the Norse myths Tolkien was drawing upon there's no basis for this in folklore as a whole. Of course, D&D draws more upon Tolkien than it ever did actual folklore or myths, so I'd expect a bog-standard D&d game to have restrictions on Dwarf magic--users, if not banning them outright.
Im with you here
I see this restriction as a failure by OD&D, or at least an unsustainable design choice. There are plenty of dwarven wizards in mythology and literature: Hephaestus, Dworkin, the Nordic smiths...
If you want to design a setting where there are no dwarven wizards, go for it. Doesn't mean there is no room for the opposite. It's just a matter of taste, IMHO.
Rune magic can be simply a visual element for dwarven wizards or clerics: that is to say, dwarves use runes, elves use crystals, etc.
In my own campaign setting, there are dwarven mages. One is pretty much Amanda Waller in a dwarven disguise, working as a royal advisor and secretly running a shadowy organization that employs questionable agents (read: player characters).
Quote from: elfandghost;611114If Dwarves have full access to magic and can be full-on mages, magicians, enchanters etc. then they simply become short, stumpy humans with a bonus to their constitution. It makes their culture seem redundant, their engineering unremarkable and their love of fighting senseless.
I view D&D's limitations on dwarves as an elegant shorthand to convey what makes Dwarves unique. However Dwarves can be distinctly dwarves even when given full access to all that humans can do. Something that GURPS and other free form RPgs have to deal with.
The trick is to focus on the role playing to define what makes dwarves unique leaving the mechanics to define their physical characteristics.
Quote from: estar;611822I view D&D's limitations on dwarves as an elegant shorthand to convey what makes Dwarves unique. However Dwarves can be distinctly dwarves even when given full access to all that humans can do. Something that GURPS and other free form RPgs have to deal with.
The trick is to focus on the role playing to define what makes dwarves unique leaving the mechanics to define their physical characteristics.
Yeah. My dwarven analogues can cast, but it certainly does not make them human. Just takes a good gm with a good setting.
Quote from: JongWK;611820Rune magic can be simply a visual element for dwarven wizards or clerics: that is to say, dwarves use runes, elves use crystals, etc.
"elves use crystals"? Do they practice reiki too?
RPGPundit
Quote from: deadDMwalking;611393In Tolkien, 'wizards' we actually see doing anything other than just stabbing people with a sword or being undead are godlings - Gandalf and Saruman.
Thank you! Someone brought up Tolkien pretty early, and if they were being consistent with that they wouldn't allow elf, human, or halfling wizards either. Wizards in LotR are their own race(they look human, but are not), and only a few are even known to exist at all. The other races all had some access to magic, but nothing on the level of an actual Wizard. When they did something truly impressive, it was with the help of strong magic items(like certain rings or the occasional enchanted blade).
Quote from: GeekEclectic;613420Thank you! Someone brought up Tolkien pretty early, and if they were being consistent with that they wouldn't allow elf, human, or halfling wizards either. Wizards in LotR are their own race(they look human, but are not), and only a few are even known to exist at all. The other races all had some access to magic, but nothing on the level of an actual Wizard. When they did something truly impressive, it was with the help of strong magic items(like certain rings or the occasional enchanted blade).
Did Dwarves in Tolkien use magic at all, or did the Elves do it for them?
It has been over 20 years from when I read those books.
As described in the books, the dwarves practiced 'magic', but the efficacy of it could not be verified. The main example is the spells of protection the dwarves laid on the troll treasure they found - this is also where three elvish blades are recovered including 'Sting'.
In the Lord of the Rings, the only dwarf is Gimli, and he doesn't practice any magic at all.
Despite all the folklore of dwarves being master craftsman and/or artificers, the elves, who spring from the same folklore, ended up having those abilities demonstrated in the books. For example, the elven rope seems to have the ability to untie itself. Again, however, the actual 'magical nature' is somewhat ambiguous. Likewise with the cloaks.
Other items, like the 'Light of Galadriel' are clearly magical as we'd understand the term.
Yeah. And didn't Galadriel possess one of the 3 elven rings created by Sauron? One of the most powerful magical items in the setting. No wonder she could do some impressive stuff.
I like using Dwarven wizards, and see no reason not to. I don't mind if they come across as just a flavor of human. In the setting I've been designing/thinking about for years, dwarves and elves and goblins and orcs are all just as able to have any of the skills and professions as humans, at least potentially. Any restrictions on anything are going to be purely cultural, with exceptions and all. For example, on human culture worships a sun god and of course believes fire is holy and so restricts fire-based magic to their priesthood only. Anyone caught within their lands using fire magic will be put to death by being staked out in the desert under the sun after having their eyes and tongue removed.
Quote from: GeekEclectic;613420Thank you! Someone brought up Tolkien pretty early, and if they were being consistent with that they wouldn't allow elf, human, or halfling wizards either. Wizards in LotR are their own race(they look human, but are not), and only a few are even known to exist at all. The other races all had some access to magic, but nothing on the level of an actual Wizard. When they did something truly impressive, it was with the help of strong magic items(like certain rings or the occasional enchanted blade).
However, the wizards in LotRs do mention humans being capable of magic. They talk about human "conjurors" and "sorcerors". They are vaguely scornful of these human magic-users, but they do say they exist.
Also, Elrond is described as being capable of magic, and if I remember right he also has one of the Elven rings.
Saruman initially believes that the "necromancer" of Dol Guldor is a human.
Yeah but if Saruman and/or Gandalf can barely get a few bigby's hand or light spells between them, what would those conjurers get? Answer: Cheap tricks. Prestidigitation or cantrips at most.
I would really like to see the howls of outrage from gamers if someone went and actually made a LoTR RPG that really reflected how rare and complicated spellcasting magic seems to be in the setting. Because that's also always been one of the things that made me feel like the various LoTR RPGs weren't actually emulating the setting.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;613782Yeah but if Saruman and/or Gandalf can barely get a few bigby's hand or light spells between them, what would those conjurers get? Answer: Cheap tricks. Prestidigitation or cantrips at most.
I would really like to see the howls of outrage from gamers if someone went and actually made a LoTR RPG that really reflected how rare and complicated spellcasting magic seems to be in the setting. Because that's also always been one of the things that made me feel like the various LoTR RPGs weren't actually emulating the setting.
Even in the Simarillion Middle Earth Magic seems to be subtle rather than D&D style fireworks. More about enhancing an object innate "virtue" or enhancing natural effects. However it seems to be pervasive in that everybody has some type of "magic" draw on like the hobbit's ability to move unseen by bigger folks.
Quote from: RPGPundit;613782Yeah but if Saruman and/or Gandalf can barely get a few bigby's hand or light spells between them, what would those conjurers get? Answer: Cheap tricks. Prestidigitation or cantrips at most.
I would really like to see the howls of outrage from gamers if someone went and actually made a LoTR RPG that really reflected how rare and complicated spellcasting magic seems to be in the setting. Because that's also always been one of the things that made me feel like the various LoTR RPGs weren't actually emulating the setting.
RPGPundit
An intereting exercize is to watch a fantasy film or read a fantasy novel and figure out a way to emulate its magic specifically. I tried that with excaliber bout a year ago,just watching it a bunch of times and pausing everytime merlin or morgana used magic. Obviously they dont have to contend with the balance issues rpgs do, but you can go in some very interesting directions doing this.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;613833An intereting exercize is to watch a fantasy film or read a fantasy novel and figure out a way to emulate its magic specifically. I tried that with excaliber bout a year ago,just watching it a bunch of times and pausing everytime merlin or morgana used magic. Obviously they dont have to contend with the balance issues rpgs do, but you can go in some very interesting directions doing this.
Cineflex's magic system was based on Excalibur, with a heavy focus on "repose" after casting spells.