The layout of almost every dungeon in almost every D&D adventure module ever made makes no sense at all (with the exception of a very few historical-accuracy type adventures, and a few where they were semi-credible cave complexes rather than 'intelligent design').

That is, if you look at real "dungeons", real burial chambers, real tombs, even mines, catacombs or ancient sewers, NONE of them look like the often seemingly-random spattering of corridors, rooms, and multiple levels that you see in a D&D dungeon.  They make no sense even from a construction perspective; and of course, most of the times the ecology of the dungeon makes no sense at all (sometimes this last note is worse than others, like dungeons that have giants or dragons that literally couldn't fit through the door out of the room they're found in, or ancient sealed dungeons unopened for centuries that somehow have contemporary equipment, groups of randomly-placed goblins, etc.).

So how do you handle all this?

Do you just not give a shit, and not address it at all?
Do you create some kind of flimsy justification for it ("a crazy wizard did it. Yes, all of them!")?
Do you actually make some kind of effort to at least try to have your dungeons be internally logical to the setting somehow?

Anyone actually want to try to defend the dungeon with some argument other than "fuck you, it's fun and I don't need to think about it"?

RPGPundit

I view it as a trope of the genre that is dungeon crawling. As such it should generally just be accepted as part of D&D and dungeon crawling. Usually.

Perhaps here and there we've jokingly asked what the heck the builder was on when they made the dungeon, but it's not something that gets discussed often.

I just see things like that as part of the game- a crazy obstacle that we the players have to try and overcome.

I don't "build" too many of my own dungeons, but when I do, I make at least some effort to keep things rational (if not completely realistic) especially since one of the keys for the players is the challenge of figuring out what it is, why it's there in the first place and how to take advantage of its features.

I never have really understood the ideas of using canned adventures.  Unless they are heavily doctored, and even still, that is part of the fun of GMing, making your own stuff.

The only adventure I have used (and heavily doctored) since 83 was Caverns of Thracia, I think partially because Jaquay's work made and makes logical sense.   My doctoring made it fit within the context of the setting.

I frankly agree with Pundit here how most adventures break verisimilitude by lacking internal or external logic.  And the older I get, the more careful I get.  I have had to go back and redo some of my older stuff.

But part of this is tied to World Building.  If you play short, dungeon-centric campaigns, not such a big deal.  But the more care that goes into crafting the setting, the more you can take advantage, or screw up, the verisimilitude in the Dungeon.  Done well, the adventure can really distill essences of the setting.

Quote from: RPGPundit;802219The layout of almost every dungeon in almost every D&D adventure module ever made makes no sense at all (with the exception of a very few historical-accuracy type adventures, and a few where they were semi-credible cave complexes rather than 'intelligent design'

Roger E. Moore actually addressed this one to me when I was young and stupid enough to be submitting to Dungeon back in the day. The in-house view was that realistic, functional architecture was boring because symmetry, repetition and other features of a working site would at best detract from the adventure experience. Accuracy was always subordinate to ambience.

I mostly design what I'd call realistic "dungeons"   On the other hand, the continent is a cosmic fungal infection with hyphae/tunnels that spread out across much of one of my worlds giving rise to the belief that hell lies beneath the earth.

Flimsy excuses usually work fine. Like rationalizing giant, flying, fire breathing lizards and undead wizards.

A real dungeon is a jail, there's really no reason to go into one unless there's a prisoner there you want to free, or whatever. There's no chests full of treasure or fiendish traps. Just some locked cells that smell like shit and human despair.

I suppose a better term might be lair, and it sometimes happens to be that the hobgoblin lair is in the dungeon of a ruined keep.

Or if we're talking about the more crazy dungeons, like White Plume Mountain, in that case, it's literally a crazy wizard who done it.

A dungeon could be posessed by a malevolent spirit or force. I've been toying with the idea of a shattered chaos stone, and every sliver has a pull towards the others. Over the years, the chaos essence will warp areas into dungeon-like lairs, and draw creatures to it, with the "intent" (Though I like to think of these shards like the One Ring, not really intelligent) of having a suitably powerful creature claim the shard and eventually encountering other shard-corrupted creatures, and over the course of the campaign, the stone slowly comes back together as these creatures defeat each other and claim more shards.
Just to outline one hypothetical excuse for dungeons.

Quote from: RPGPundit;802219...Anyone actually want to try to defend the dungeon with some argument other than "fuck you, it's fun and I don't need to think about it"?

RPGPundit

Nope.

I realized the silliness of the "Dungeon" when I was really young and I created a dungeon themed around the idiotic idea the whole dungeon was shaped like a skull on my graph-paper. It was meta before there was meta - my friends were like - "that is so cool! But if this dungeon were underground... who would know what it was shaped like?" (give me a break - I was like 12.)

As an adult - I don't use "dungeons" in the old-school sense very much. Sure I use tombs and labyrinthine underground structures that many would assume were "Dungeons" - but nothing exists in those things, or is part of those structures that does not have a reason for being there. I don't do random dungeons very much - unless it's supposed to represent some place long-abandoned. In which case I populate it like I would any region: what available food/water sources are there? what could live there? How long has it been abandoned - etc. and extrapolate from there.

Quote from: RPGPundit;802219Anyone actually want to try to defend the dungeon with some argument other than "fuck you, it's fun and I don't need to think about it"?

If we're treating rpgs as an actual game, any other argument is essentially meaningless. Surely the streets in Atlantic City don't form a square pattern! If you're trying to come up with an in-game rationale for the existence of a dungeon, that's a completely different question.

In my games, I always assume dungeons exist because Wizards Are Assholes(tm) a la Dying Earth. Realistically there is NO reason for such places to exist other than to trap people as a sort of sick pastime. Basically a bunch of sociopathic dicks made all these dungeons to show the other sociopaths they could kill more greedy treasure hunters. This fits in the genre D&D tries to emulate.

When we played C&S, the only dungeons I had were actual dungeons under castles than were very symmetrical and boring, not at all full of treasure and goblins. But, again, it fit the game.

Quote from: tenbones;802232the whole dungeon was shaped like a skull on my graph-paper.

This brings back memories:)  I loved dungeons that formed crude pictures of things like that on graph paper. That and land masses that resemble things like dragons or weapons on maps.  Gold!

Quote from: RPGPundit;802219So how do you handle all this?

Do you just not give a shit, and not address it at all?

Probably the one sane way to handle it.

Quote from: RPGPundit;802219Do you create some kind of flimsy justification for it ("a crazy wizard did it. Yes, all of them!")?
Do you actually make some kind of effort to at least try to have your dungeons be internally logical to the setting somehow?

Anyone actually want to try to defend the dungeon with some argument other than "fuck you, it's fun and I don't need to think about it"?

Closest I've seen is (of course) ACKS, in which harvesting monster parts for spell research and magic item creation is a big part of the endgame; and guidelines are given for high-level spellcasters who want to build dungeons as "monster farms" of sorts.

If I recall correctly, you build a dungeon, bait it with treasure, and roll on the local Wandering Monster table using "% found in lair" as the probability that the critters will set up shop. If the result is "NPC Party" adventurers raid your dungeon! And of course, a dungeon puts neighboring communities at risk for monster attacks. Fun stuff.

I ran a D&D style dungeon as part of Delta Green -- the party had started visiting the Dreamlands as part of a secure covert communication system.

But, of course, Dreamlands is hazy pastiche fantasy.

The dungeon was well-known to locals, and they eagerly helped the party.

Going into the tomb, the first batch of traps were all well-worn, often broken. The trigger step was obvious (the only unworn step), a spear trap was headless and just splintered uselessly before sticking, then slowly, stutteringly, withdrawing to reset.

The party grabbed treasure, left. When they next visited, the locals had cleared the rest of the treasure, happy that the party had finally neutralized the final few traps.

This old gag again.

Rarely is a D&D dungeon an actual Dungeon = Prison.
More often they are the abodes of people who built them according to some plan. Others are built by chaotic or at least somewhat alien creatures and do you REALLY expect a kobold to tunnel in a straight line for long before going off in some weirdass direction just because it felt right or they flipped a coin?

Havent some of you dim wits never seen a mine or natural cave? Alot of mines if you looked at their floor plans do not follow a regular pattern. They follow the ore veins or the path of least resistance.



Natural caves repurposed to dungeons will also be somewhat haphazard in layout.

Also. Take a look at the Steam Tunnels under any given university. Those rarely follow a pattern.

Oh hey, fun real world examples:

Kaymakli is interesting to consider, with an eye toward dungeons:

http://www.goreme.com/kaymakli-underground-city.php


Also, mythical Xibalba is basically a 'dungeon dimension' from Mayan mythology!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xibalba