Quote from: weirdguy564 on December 17, 2022, 09:03:25 PM
Any business needs to be run so it makes money. 

We just don't like thinking we're being fleeced.  It feels like we're being taken advantage of. 

It's one of the reasons I like Basic Fantasy.  It's free digitally, and sold at cost physically.  Even I think Chris Gonnerman should make some money, but I can't stop him from giving away a good product.

Its why some despise edition treamills and the damn 5 year plan.
Just as a game is gainits legs, yank the rug out and hey new edition! 5e has survived the longest. But we all knew this was coming. I am just surprised it took so long for them to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

Quote from: S'mon on December 11, 2022, 02:53:44 AM
Saw this on my Facebook feed https://www.dicebreaker.com/categories/roleplaying-game/news/dungeons-and-dragons-under-monetised-says-executives?utm_source=social_sharing&fbclid=IwAR25ijqcfJgUwVd-bWKcnyfloOpa214dTdsvmzd53A-8rAP42CYDTmRa5O8

"D&D has never been more popular, and we have really great fans and engagement," Williams began. "But the brand is really under monetised."

The executives are less worried about design than installing more on-ramps for players to spend their money. Williams mentioned that while dungeon masters comprise roughly 20% of the D&D player base, they make up "the largest share of our paying players". An investment in digital, she posits, will allow Wizards of the Coast to "unlock the type of recurrent spending you see in digital games".

Or in other words, Hasbro wants to find a way to make more money from D&D. There is nothing wrong with this. The problem with these guys, heartless ESG driven corporations and woke wackos, is that they have not been doing a very good job of that lately. Instead of finding and adding new customers they tend to run off the old customers without developing those shiny new (politically correct woke) customers to take their place.

There is nothing wrong with expanding your customer base, perhaps by using the brand identification to enter new markets. Common sense would dictate that you need to be careful not to lose the original market and thus damage your brand. It would be like Rolls-Royce coming up with a small economy car to compete with Toyota. Even if it is a great car, it might result in the original buyers abandoning the brand without attracting those Toyota customers. On the other hand Ferrari, Harley Davidson, etc. have had some success with branching out into totally new markets like fashion, etc.

The key issue seems to me is don't insult and drive off your original customers. These Big Business corps are obsessed with ESG which is just a systematic method of imposing wokeness, and thus they develop a loathing for their original customers. I wonder how much of this talk of 'under monetizing' is about increasing sales revenue or just getting rid of your embarrassing non-woke customers?

Quote from: squirewaldo on December 18, 2022, 10:48:10 AM
The key issue seems to me is don't insult and drive off your original customers.

The beating of customers will continue until profits improve!

It's incredibly egocentric and narcissistic of me to gloat that I was right when people here and other places were shouting me down. But I was right. Ha!

I fucking hate myself for being right about this.

Oh well, the time has come to embrace the OSR, and other products. I'm starting a Savage Pathfinder game soon with some friends on Discord. That's going to be fun. It really is time to leave DnD behind.

In the humble spirit of my own vast magnanimity; I will address some points here:

Quote from: Mistwell on December 16, 2022, 05:43:57 PM
...
And yeah, D&D is deeply under monetized relative to what it could be. It has ...

Well, we must ask what it means to be under monetized...

Because both TSR and WotC have learned some hard lessons of what and how much the player base will absorb both from a game design and supplement/edition churn, and marketing perspective.

This is something that I'll circle back to...

Quote from: Mistwell on December 16, 2022, 05:43:57 PM
1) more players than MtG, and ...

Yes.

Quote from: Mistwell on December 16, 2022, 05:43:57 PM
2) MUCH more general brand recognition than MtG.

Oh hell yes.

Quote from: Mistwell on December 16, 2022, 05:43:57 PM
But it makes much less per player than D&D. Why? It shouldn't. ...

Why? There is no mystery here. Williams explained why in their webinar: https://kvgo.com/ubs/hasbro-inc-webinar

Which by now you should have actually listened to.

"...dungeon masters comprise roughly 20% of the D&D player base, they make up "the largest share of our paying players".

We must acknowledge that D&D just has a different pay to play dynamic than MtG.

For 4 people to play MtG they all have to have their own decks, and be fully conversant in the rules of the game.

MTG; four people playing = Four paying customers.

For four people to play D&D only one one person has to have a copy of the rules, and the others don't need to crack a book for the GM to tell them how to play.

D&D; four people playing = One paying customer.

Naturally the current WotC brain trust wants to bridge that gap. The trouble that they are running into is that bridging that three person gap of paying customers between the two games is hard.

Because they can't just sell more books to do it...

Quote from: Mistwell on December 16, 2022, 05:43:57 PM
It's just they're not selling enough stuff people want to buy with D&D. And there is nothing wrong with them selling more stuff ...

In my opinion; It depends entirely on what stuff they are selling...

TSR did a toy line. Bust.
TSR did a cartoon. Bust.
TSR did a movie. Mega Bust.
TSR did D&D comics. Also a Bust.
TSR did novels. Good for a bit, but dwindled into a Bust.
TSR did video games. Some memorable successes; then a few bad decisions, and Bust.
Also minis, branded dice, CCG etc,... Bust, bust, bust, bust, bust.

Reliably Monetizing the three non-book buying players in a four person group is hard.

"But, but players already buy mini's, character sketches, fancy Dice, and other geegaw's?"

True, but those purchases are spread out over myriad of vendors and manufacturers, with which TSR and WotC would have to compete. And as we saw with TSR; doing that is hard.

WotC seems to be doing ok with licensed geegaws, but that does not reliably monetize the non-book buying player base to nearly the same degree that MtG does for all its players.

Enter OneVTT:

WotC's solution is too create the OneVTT walled garden where virtual mini's, dice, and no doubt other PC cosmetic enhancements that will all be available for pennies on the dollar... If they can attract enough people over to OneVTT they will then employ the same gambler psychology that other digital games use to entice players to buy said virtual products via microtransactions; thereby monetizing the non-book buying players and (more importantly) keep their money firmly within the WotC umbrella.

Of course, it is common knowledge that Wotc is going to try to do all the Movie, tv, video games, comics, toy line stuff too. But those can be hit or miss...

Not that WotC is going to screw it all up, but the given the nature of those beasts, the OneVTT is far more of a sure thing long term. Which is why they will pound that drum HARD.

Especially since going into the Movie, tv, video games, comics, toy line stuff can have a negative effect on your brand if you get it wrong.

So outside of the OneVTT:

It's not just about making "more" stuff available; It is about making the right stuff in the right quantity that adds to the bottom line, but doesn't devalue the brand while you do so. Which Hasbro does not exactly have a clean track record on...

Quote from: Jaeger on December 18, 2022, 04:58:14 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 16, 2022, 05:43:57 PM
It's just they're not selling enough stuff people want to buy with D&D. And there is nothing wrong with them selling more stuff ...

In my opinion; It depends entirely on what stuff they are selling...

TSR did a toy line. Bust.
TSR did a cartoon. Bust.
TSR did a movie. Mega Bust.
TSR did D&D comics. Also a Bust.
TSR did novels. Good for a bit, but dwindled into a Bust.
TSR did video games. Some memorable successes; then a few bad decisions, and Bust.
Also minis, branded dice, CCG etc,... Bust, bust, bust, bust, bust.

Reliably Monetizing the three non-book buying players in a four person group is hard.

"But, but players already buy mini's, character sketches, fancy Dice, and other geegaw's?"

True, but those purchases are spread out over myriad of vendors and manufacturers, with which TSR and WotC would have to compete. And as we saw with TSR; doing that is hard.

WotC seems to be doing ok with licensed geegaws, but that does not reliably monetize the non-book buying player base to nearly the same degree that MtG does for all its players.

Enter OneVTT:

WotC's solution is too create the OneVTT walled garden where virtual mini's, dice, and no doubt other PC cosmetic enhancements that will all be available for pennies on the dollar... If they can attract enough people over to OneVTT they will then employ the same gambler psychology that other digital games use to entice players to buy said virtual products via microtransactions; thereby monetizing the non-book buying players and (more importantly) keep their money firmly within the WotC umbrella.

It seems to me that tou're phrasing this as "how can WotC evilly take money away from players". But as you pointed out regarding geegaws, most D&D players are happy to pay for things that will make their experience of playing D&D better. In the past, neither TSR nor WotC has reliably provided these, so it's only DMs who have paid.

Neither microtransactions or subscriptions are inherently unscrupulous or bad. For example, most players aren't interested in buying a $40 book like Mordenkeinen's Monsters of the Multiverse, but they might be happy to pay $1 each for a few of the playable races in it. There's nothing wrong with this. Likewise, if they have a subscription service that lets players cheaply rent access to a wide range of rules rather than paying hundreds up front, that would also be good.

Yes, WotC probably will have some lousy schemes like how they did randomized miniatures in the past. Such corporate logic has been a factor in both TSR and WotC for most of their production history, and essentially every other company producing very successful games. The edition treadmill is certainly part of this. Both TSR and WotC have produced a lot of drek that I haven't been interested in. But they've also produced a lot of stuff that I enjoy, including in the current era.

Currently, D&D is as successful as it has ever been. Two examples of that from my recent experience. Back in August, I went to the Grand Canyon with my son, and the park ranger who let us into the park noticed D&D stuff, and gushed how she was into D&D as well, and had a D&D group with other park rangers. I also ran a D&D game while at my church retreat in December, and seven members of my congregation signed up - including my pastor, who explained that he was curious about the game that his daughter played a lot of.

So as far as I can tell, WotC is running D&D pretty successfully in terms of getting people playing and having fun with it. I'm sure they'll continue to have missteps and screw-ups, but so does every company.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 18, 2022, 01:50:37 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on December 18, 2022, 10:48:10 AM
The key issue seems to me is don't insult and drive off your original customers.

The beating of customers will continue until profits improve!

Problem is one marketing push has been that fans and prior customers are expendable.

Quote from: jhkim on December 19, 2022, 02:29:56 AM
....
It seems to me that you're phrasing this as "how can WotC evilly take money away from players". But as you pointed out regarding geegaws, most D&D players are happy to pay for things that will make their experience of playing D&D better. In the past, neither TSR nor WotC has reliably provided these, so it's only DMs who have paid.

GM's are the big spenders.

I have know players to buy their own minis and dice. Generally not from TSR or WotC. Compared to the GM book buying those are incidental expenditures. But they do add up...

The goal of One VTT is to move that type of incidental spending firmly in house.

Also, please quote exactly where I said it was evil for a corp to make money?

I'll wait.

Quote from: jhkim on December 19, 2022, 02:29:56 AM
Neither microtransactions or subscriptions are inherently unscrupulous or bad. For example, most players aren't interested in buying a $40 book like Mordenkeinen's Monsters of the Multiverse, but they might be happy to pay $1 each for a few of the playable races in it. There's nothing wrong with this. Likewise, if they have a subscription service that lets players cheaply rent access to a wide range of rules rather than paying hundreds up front, that would also be good.

When it comes to microtransactions; no one is talking about buying rules.

I specifically mentioned: "...virtual mini's, dice, and no doubt other PC cosmetic enhancements that will all be available for pennies on the dollar..."

Why did you bring up the buying rules bits?

Miss Williams At 34:08 in: https://kvgo.com/ubs/hasbro-inc-webinar

Quote"...digital will allow us options to create rewarding experiences post-sale that helps us unlock the type of recurrent spending you see in digital games, where more than 70% of revenue in digital games comes post-sale. The speed of digital means that we are able to expand from what is essentially a yearly book publishing model, to a reoccurring spending environment, and we're offering content that we know fans want."

Exactly where in there when she mentions "recurrent/a reoccurring spending environment" did you get that she's just talking about selling the players mini rules chunks?

Will the GM's running games on the OneVTT not already have bought access to the rules they want for their players in the game they are running??

That's just an odd take.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 18, 2022, 04:58:14 PM
TSR did a toy line. Bust.
TSR did a cartoon. Bust.
TSR did a movie. Mega Bust.
TSR did D&D comics. Also a Bust.
TSR did novels. Good for a bit, but dwindled into a Bust.
TSR did video games. Some memorable successes; then a few bad decisions, and Bust.
Also minis, branded dice, CCG etc,... Bust, bust, bust, bust, bust.

Lets see. Both Toy lines went a good distance. The action figures got a bit further. So false there.
Cartoon made it two seasons. Which is better than most cartoons of that era ever fared. So false there.
Movies, well the second movie was well recieved. Most try to forget the third one exists. So true there.
Comics, the DC comics ran a good ways. The D&D one went like 30 odd issues. Think FR did as well. Not sure how far Dragonlance and Spelljammer got. Pretty sure Dragonlance got into the 30s. Thats better than alot of DC's sideline comics ever got. So false there.
Book. um, still plugging away. So very false. They may not be in the quantity of the Loraine era. But they are still doing em. Or at least were up to 4th ed. One of my friends penned a book for wotc round then.
Video games, theres still ones coming out and the quality is still all over the place. But when they shine they shine. So also very false.
Minis. Did pretty well for TSR then segued into wotcs deals with Wizkids and was still plugging away well into 5e. So very false there too.
Branded dice? where? If you mean Dragon Dice. Surprisingly enough it was quite a success. Problem was wotc fucked it up. As they did with other product. And Dragon Dice is still kicking. So false again.
CCG. Spellfire was another one that sold well despite its simplicity. Bloodwars was alot less so. 50/50 there.

So most of your little try was the real bust.

There is a big difference between DM's being big spenders (which I agree with) and what a bean counter *believes* without first-hand knowledge of how a product is used, could generate money for the Corporation.

This was what I was intimating above - if you're a mobile-game developer, they don't give a rats ass about how a TTRPG is played. But they do understand Brand Recognition, and since they do understand how Mobile games operate - there is *zero* reason they can't monetize the Brand Leader in *their* gamespace. They're going to pull D&D into that paradigm. They don't *care* about TTRPG's in how we engage with them.

Quote from: Omega on December 19, 2022, 08:13:37 AM
...(But, but, but, but)....

So most of your little try was the real bust.

Wow, you must have actually liked some of that stuff.

All that stuff was, and still is, an attempt to put D&D over as an Evergreen brand like Transformers, or GI Joe, Ninja turtles, etc,..

That is the lens I am evaluating and looking at them through.

Quote from: Omega on December 19, 2022, 08:13:37 AM
Lets see. Both Toy lines went a good distance. The action figures got a bit further. So false there.

I can walk into target and still buy a Transformer. D&D action figures are no where to be seen. So bust.

Quote from: Omega on December 19, 2022, 08:13:37 AM
Cartoon made it two seasons. Which is better than most cartoons of that era ever fared. So false there.

Two seasons then cancelled. That's still called a bust.

Quote from: Omega on December 19, 2022, 08:13:37 AM
Movies, well the second movie was well received. Most try to forget the third one exists. So true there.

I actually remember the sequel premiering on the Sci-Fi channel. Agreed, absolutely busted.

Quote from: Omega on December 19, 2022, 08:13:37 AM
Comics, the DC comics ran a good ways. The D&D one went like 30 odd issues. Think FR did as well. Not sure how far Dragonlance and Spelljammer got. Pretty sure Dragonlance got into the 30s. Thats better than alot of DC's sideline comics ever got. So false there.

I can go into a comic shop and find no new issues of any of that stuff. Clearly a bust.

Quote from: Omega on December 19, 2022, 08:13:37 AM
Book. um, still plugging away. So very false. They may not be in the quantity of the Loraine era. But they are still doing em. Or at least were up to 4th ed. One of my friends penned a book for wotc round then.

They were. Now they're not.

RA Salvator is still cranking out Drzzit-on-demand, and they are pushing some new DL novels that will compete with the W&H DL novels.

But that's basically it.

They had their day in the sun. Now clearly they have descended into Busted level.

Unless you really like Drizzt and DL...

Quote from: Omega on December 19, 2022, 08:13:37 AM
Video games, theres still ones coming out and the quality is still all over the place. But when they shine they shine. So also very false.

Ok let's take a look:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons_video_games

Outside of Baldurs Gate and Neverwinter Nights, you have a list of stuff no one cares about.

Where's the breakthrough warcraft/diablo franchise that has been the whole point of of this crap for over 30 years? Nowhere.

Other companies have consistently made their D&D knockoffs more popular than the official games. A Bust.

But maybe Baldurs gate 3 will turn it around...

Quote from: Omega on December 19, 2022, 08:13:37 AM
Minis. Did pretty well for TSR then segued into wotcs deals with Wizkids and was still plugging away well into 5e. So very false there too.
Branded dice? where? If you mean Dragon Dice. Surprisingly enough it was quite a success. Problem was wotc fucked it up. As they did with other product. And Dragon Dice is still kicking. So false again.

Dragon Dice was sold off and is no longer a "D&D" product. Bust.

Minis: I was referencing TSR's early efforts. In this, I was definitely out of the loop.

I looked into the Wizkids stuff, and its a lot bigger than I thought. Yes it is a license, but they are making a ton of product. And have been doing so for quite a while now.

You were right:

Wizkids pre-painted D&D minis for the WotC win. Totally not a bust.

I stand corrected on the minis.

Quote from: Omega on December 19, 2022, 08:13:37 AM
CCG. Spellfire was another one that sold well despite its simplicity. Bloodwars was alot less so. 50/50 there.

Where are these CCG now again? Still Busts.


So we readily agreed on one, and I stand corrected on the minis.

Naturally, I'm still completely right on everything else. (Is that arrogant enough?)

Still, Two out of eight is not bad for an elfgame argument on the internet.

Quote from: tenbones on December 19, 2022, 11:26:04 AM
There is a big difference between DM's being big spenders (which I agree with) and what a bean counter *believes* without first-hand knowledge of how a product is used, could generate money for the Corporation.

This was what I was intimating above - if you're a mobile-game developer, they don't give a rats ass about how a TTRPG is played. But they do understand Brand Recognition, and since they do understand how Mobile games operate - there is *zero* reason they can't monetize the Brand Leader in *their* gamespace. They're going to pull D&D into that paradigm. They don't *care* about TTRPG's in how we engage with them.

^Yes^

The will move the standard of official WotC D&D play with the One VTT to a paradigm that they know and are more comfortable with.

I think initially that it will be a big success as the DnDrones flock to the new hotness.

But after a few years we will start to see a stark divide in the hobby due to the style of play the OneVTT will create.

What will that look like? Still unclear.

But there will be a shift that could be a big opportunity for someone willing to take a risk...

I will stick up for D&D: Tower of Doom and Shadow over Mystara as being excellent and fun games.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 18, 2022, 04:58:14 PM

"...dungeon masters comprise roughly 20% of the D&D player base, they make up "the largest share of our paying players".

We must acknowledge that D&D just has a different pay to play dynamic than MtG.

For 4 people to play MtG they all have to have their own decks, and be fully conversant in the rules of the game.

MTG; four people playing = Four paying customers.

For four people to play D&D only one one person has to have a copy of the rules, and the others don't need to crack a book for the GM to tell them how to play.

D&D; four people playing = One paying customer.

This is one of those areas where I am thankful but also admittedly a bad commentator on gaming industry issues, because in the...ah... "gaming microclimate" I grew up in, this was just not common at all.

Of the gamers I know, at least 3/4ths were paying customers, probably higher. In groups I was familiar with, it was just expected that for any "long running" group/campaign, players would have at least the core book on their own, so they were able to study the rules, make characters at home, and so on. Players might join for a few sessions to see if the game interested them, but if they played more than 3-4 sessions, although it was rarely a rule, it was...  expected. And beyond this, the amount of game masters to pure players was much higher - in my "main" group, that I still play with (albeit online and infrequently) today, every single player is a game master. Maybe for a few months one person runs something, then that game finishes and I'll run something, and so on.

It wasn't until... honestly, probably post-college years that I realized that this was aparently not the norm.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 19, 2022, 02:43:32 PM
I will stick up for D&D: Tower of Doom and Shadow over Mystara as being excellent and fun games.

Yes. Absolutely. Some of the best arcade brawlers ever made, and damned faithful to the property.

As well, the older D&D video games were actually often pretty good. Not all of them, but, for example, the grid-based dungeon crawlers like Eye of the Beholder 1-3 and Dungeon Hack? Great games, for the time.