Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 14, 2022, 05:57:08 PM
Here's the thing. If Hasbro can create an app that allows Dungeon Masters to run games for money, then DMs will be readily available for the millions of people out there who want to play but don't have a group. If this can work, One D&D will be hugely successful and lucrative despite any protests against the monetization.

Turning DNDone into basically Grindr for DMs actually seems plausible, although I wonder how nightmarish it would be in the drama department. There are a lot of very socially maladaptive people in these communities (e.g. Wizards of the Coast staff) so I would expect a lot of disputes arising from hooking up people in a relatively random way. If finances are involved, even more so.

Quote from: Zelen on December 14, 2022, 06:40:54 PM
Turning DNDone into basically Grindr for DMs actually seems plausible, although I wonder how nightmarish it would be in the drama department. There are a lot of very socially maladaptive people in these communities (e.g. Wizards of the Coast staff) so I would expect a lot of disputes arising from hooking up people in a relatively random way. If finances are involved, even more so.

Considering the entire session is on WotC's own platform, they would have complete recordings of everything said and done during the session. So the DM's could suspend a player and an employee of WotC could easily review the suspension if the player contests it.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 14, 2022, 05:57:08 PM
If Hasbro can create an app that allows Dungeon Masters to run games for money, then DMs will be readily available for the millions of people out there who want to play but don't have a group. If this can work, One D&D will be hugely successful and lucrative despite any protests against the monetization.

I already know of a number of GMs who are running games for money. It has been going on for a while, but it's picked up a lot in the last few years. That's one of the secondary markets that they're hoping to get in on.

In general, I find that tabletop RPGs are ridiculously cheap in terms of entertainment per dollar spent on products used directly in play. The most costly thing for me in RPGs is buying a bunch of books that I don't use. I've got hundreds are RPGs I've never played, adventures I haven't run, etc. If I could spend smaller payments only on stuff that I actually use, that might be a great improvement.

I'm doubtful that WotC could actually achieve that for me, but I don't think they're evil or foolish for trying it.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 14, 2022, 05:57:08 PM
...
Here's the thing. If Hasbro can create an app that allows Dungeon Masters to run games for money, then DMs will be readily available for the millions of people out there who want to play but don't have a group. If this can work, One D&D will be hugely successful and lucrative despite any protests against the monetization.

^This^ is WotC's solution to the six-session "camapign.

They should have many pre-made modules of varying lengths ready to buy so that being a GM becomes as plug-and-play as possible.

They will want to "democratize" GMing, so that all you have to do is paint by the numbers in the DnDoneVTT.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 14, 2022, 07:38:59 PM
Considering the entire session is on WotC's own platform, they would have complete recordings of everything said and done during the session. So the DM's could suspend a player and an employee of WotC could easily review the suspension if the player contests it.

That place is going to be more informant ridden than former East Germany, and the GM's are going to get it hard and fast too...

I think people have no idea how hard the GM's are going to be made to toe the line, and walk on eggshells so as not to offend and possibly drive away any of those newly monetized players.

Quote from: Ruprecht on December 14, 2022, 04:30:34 PM
I think they should have had a few new and goo movies and a game under their belts before talking 'lifestyle brand'.

Last check Solomon was still blockading any D&D movie or cartoon media.

buuuuut

Looks like Hasbro took him to court sometime 2014 and Solomon had to settle out of court. Im not seeing Solomon's name on any of the credits so far now where a year or three ago there was credit to his company in a trailer. Verrry interesting.

and good lord! He had the media rights to Traveller???

It sounds increasingly as if OneD&D will be a money-focused cult rather than a part of the ttrpg hobby.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 14, 2022, 05:57:08 PM
There is an entire generation gamers who are used to paying cash for cosmetics, for power-up, or to unlock new character types. Want to play a half-dragon, then just buy the "Legacy of Dragons" rulebook for $7.99 to unlock that species. Want to play a Dark Elf, buy the "Drizzt guide to the Underdark" book etc. Subscribe for a year and get a +2 item of your choice. Since it is all going through the app, it is a trivial feature to implement.

Yep. And there is nothing to be done about that. And this further is proof they're mutating D&D into more of a mobile-game model. I'm not against that, because I don't look at D&D or any RPG in that configuration as a TTRPG. Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 are still some of the best computer RPG's ever made, they didn't affect my TTRPG hobby *at all*. And if they go this route with D&D, which they are, this will leave us back in our native habitat without them. And perhaps without D&D in a real functional sense. The only people that will suffer are people that want to play "The New Thing" but in a traditional TTRPG way - which to me remains to be seen.

I'm looking at this like WotC is the rampaging Horde that just decimated TTRPG's and are now moving on. They've swallowed up our young and rolling onward. WE are left, and we can get back to the business of playing TTRPG's as they should be played. I'm not against apps, and efficiencies by using technology etc. I'm against these systems *being* the game itself.

Just like I'm not a fan of modern D&D where the mechanics themselves are the game rather than the interactions themselves at the table.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 14, 2022, 05:57:08 PMHere's the thing. If Hasbro can create an app that allows Dungeon Masters to run games for money, then DMs will be readily available for the millions of people out there who want to play but don't have a group. If this can work, One D&D will be hugely successful and lucrative despite any protests against the monetization.

I'm perfectly fine with this. Just like I don't give any credence to people who follow and play League of Legends, or any other form of game that is not TTRPG's in the way we engage with them, *they* are leaving us. And to me, that's great. The D&D brand left us years ago. But people still act like "newer is better" and follow the brand as if it is defined by whomever owns the license. At *some* point one realizes we're playing different games. And while I may not convince someone on a forum there are other TTRPG's out there *better* than 5e, those people will soon come to reality when their 5e game is now being played like a Mobile Game, and it won't feel "as they think it should". They'll either leave the hobby or discover some older brand of D&D, or stick with the 5e refugees - which I'm confident there will be plenty. The fallout of all this should be US, in whatever form we engage with the hobby in a traditional TTRPG sense, welcome them in.

OneDnD is creating their own ship to somewhere. I bid them a fond farewell. When they leave, it'll be time to get back to gaming with people that want the real stuff. Now let's roll some actual dice.

Quote from: tenbones on December 15, 2022, 08:21:06 AM
Just like I'm not a fan of modern D&D where the mechanics themselves are the game rather than the interactions themselves at the table.

This is not a new thing. Back in the day, circa 1980, we called them rules lawyers, hack-n-slashers and a bunch of other related terms. I have been involved in organized gaming for decades now and I see the same bell curve of players type, young and old, today as I did back in the day. With the middle of the curve is firmly on those who are there to have fun, appreciate some choices, and like to have a little consistency.

Quote from: tenbones on December 15, 2022, 08:21:06 AM
OneDnD is creating their own ship to somewhere. I bid them a fond farewell. When they leave, it'll be time to get back to gaming with people that want the real stuff. Now let's roll some actual dice.

My prediction is if Wizards and Hasbro fucks up D&D and monetization then the hobby will fix it for them the same the hobby fixed the issues with D&D 4e with Pathfinder and to a lesser extent the OSR. If they don't fuck it, then the hobby's kaleidoscope of choices will continue unabated with well-supported niches throughout.

It not going to be mean the end of Wizard's D&D because once they realize "O shit we just did D&D 4e all over again". They still have the blueprint for what they did for the runup to 5e on file. And it certainly not going to be mean the end of D&D as somebody else will be viewed as the standard bearer much in the way that it was Paizo's Pathfinder was viewed as the true successor to D&D 3.5.

The most annoying part of this will be the fact we will have to hear about it over and over again because it takes about 3 to 4 years to fully play out. But it will play out and not end well even if everybody on this forums worst case scenario comes to pass. The hobby has the tools to fix this. They fixed this in the past and will do so again.

Totally agree. And it's people like yourself, Pundit, Venger etc. and to a lesser extent me (as I'm preparing to start publishing) that can potentially benefit from the churn.

It'll self-correct, and there will be people that fall out of the hobby, there will be those that will only know OneD&D as their D&D, and there will be those that will rage and stick to their 5e... who will likewise either fallout or be part of those that move on to other games.

But the hobby will endure.

I am seeing some OSR fans (not necessarily here) behaving frankly like Marxists about this. Decrying "corporate greed" as if WOTC/Hasbro is some non-profit. As if the purpose of a corporation isn't to make money for it's shareholders, and as if it's not a duty of a publicly held corporation to make increasing profits for its shareholders.

For a group which tends to be anti-Woke and anti-socialist, it smacks as awful socialist to see this sentiment when it comes to THEIR hobby.

Man, WOTC is going to try and make more products and services which people will want to buy. That's it. They're going to make movies they think people will pay to see. Video games they think people will pay to buy and play. Board games and card games and dice games people will want to buy and play. Toys people will want to buy. And yeah, a virtual tabletop which they think will be so much better than the competitors out there that people will want to pay a subscription fee for it and maybe a fee for things like digital miniatures for it. And if people don't like those things they won't buy them, and if they do they will. That's all this shit is. They're not "forcing" anyone to buy anything to continue to play the game (they even committed to still making hardcopy game books) they just want to come up with more things to sell that people will want to buy because they think it's cool.

And yeah, D&D is deeply under monetized relative to what it could be. It has 1) more players than MtG, and 2) MUCH more general brand recognition than MtG. But it makes much less per player than D&D. Why? It shouldn't. It's just they're not selling enough stuff people want to buy with D&D. And there is nothing wrong with them selling more stuff I, and many others, will want to buy. That's capitalism.

And frankly if you're against them selling stuff people want to buy, then don't go calling yourself anti-socialist.

Quote from: Mistwell on December 16, 2022, 05:43:57 PM
I am seeing some OSR fans (not necessarily here) behaving frankly like Marxists about this. Decrying "corporate greed" as if WOTC/Hasbro is some non-profit. As if the purpose of a corporation isn't to make money for it's shareholders, and as if it's not a duty of a publicly held corporation to make increasing profits for its shareholders.

For a group which tends to be anti-Woke and anti-socialist, it smacks as awful socialist to see this sentiment when it comes to THEIR hobby.

Man, WOTC is going to try and make more products and services which people will want to buy. That's it. They're going to make movies they think people will pay to see. Video games they think people will pay to buy and play. Board games and card games and dice games people will want to buy and play. Toys people will want to buy. And yeah, a virtual tabletop which they think will be so much better than the competitors out there that people will want to pay a subscription fee for it and maybe a fee for things like digital miniatures for it. And if people don't like those things they won't buy them, and if they do they will. That's all this shit is. They're not "forcing" anyone to buy anything to continue to play the game (they even committed to still making hardcopy game books) they just want to come up with more things to sell that people will want to buy because they think it's cool.

And yeah, D&D is deeply under monetized relative to what it could be. It has 1) more players than MtG, and 2) MUCH more general brand recognition than MtG. But it makes much less per player than D&D. Why? It shouldn't. It's just they're not selling enough stuff people want to buy with D&D. And there is nothing wrong with them selling more stuff I, and many others, will want to buy. That's capitalism.

And frankly if you're against them selling stuff people want to buy, then don't go calling yourself anti-socialist.

I, for one, applaud WotC's move because it will hurt the 5e fanatics, while people like me will happily go on their way, as we only need paper, pencils, and dice. I'm certainly interested in OneD&D and WotC's activities from a business point of view, but they have absolutely no impact on my gaming table.

Quote from: Mistwell on December 16, 2022, 05:43:57 PM
I am seeing some OSR fans (not necessarily here) behaving frankly like Marxists about this. Decrying "corporate greed" as if WOTC/Hasbro is some non-profit. As if the purpose of a corporation isn't to make money for it's shareholders, and as if it's not a duty of a publicly held corporation to make increasing profits for its shareholders.

I agree with this general observation, and I will in all likelihood run D&DOne, but I'll point out it's also anti-socialist to "vote with your dollars" by supporting a different product from a different company, which sounds like what a lot of the upset people are going to do.

Quote from: Mistwell on December 16, 2022, 05:43:57 PM
I am seeing some OSR fans (not necessarily here) behaving frankly like Marxists about this. Decrying "corporate greed" as if WOTC/Hasbro is some non-profit. As if the purpose of a corporation isn't to make money for it's shareholders, and as if it's not a duty of a publicly held corporation to make increasing profits for its shareholders.

I think there's a difference between the Free Market system and the sort of predatory/exploitative system that focuses on microtransactions for potentially randomized items* that is likely. A quality good/service at a fair price is not what people are complaining about; its the potentially targeting kids with the same gambling weakness targeting methods used by the most unscrupulous video game distributors.

I would also argue about the problem of fiduciary laws being written to force public corporations to only focus on short term profit even at the expense of a corporation's long term growth/sustainable operations... but that's not really on topic for this particular discussion.

* If you think a micro-transaction-based D&Done won't use randomized loot boxes you haven't been paying attention to both who they've hired for the digital content and who WotC has always been (MtG, D&D minis, etc... MtG is unironically called "Crack the Addiction" for a reason).

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 17, 2022, 08:11:47 AM
...its the potentially targeting kids with the same gambling weakness targeting methods used by the most unscrupulous video game distributors.

Caveat emptor applies to parents too.

As far as I've ever seen, free market capitalism is a vivid jungle full of glorious freedom and ignominious predation; it's mom and dad's job to make sure junior doesn't get parasitized.

Any business needs to be run so it makes money. 

We just don't like thinking we're being fleeced.  It feels like we're being taken advantage of. 

It's one of the reasons I like Basic Fantasy.  It's free digitally, and sold at cost physically.  Even I think Chris Gonnerman should make some money, but I can't stop him from giving away a good product.