TheRPGSite

Saw this on my Facebook feed https://www.dicebreaker.com/categories/roleplaying-game/news/dungeons-and-dragons-under-monetised-says-executives?utm_source=social_sharing&fbclid=IwAR25ijqcfJgUwVd-bWKcnyfloOpa214dTdsvmzd53A-8rAP42CYDTmRa5O8

"D&D has never been more popular, and we have really great fans and engagement," Williams began. "But the brand is really under monetised."

The executives are less worried about design than installing more on-ramps for players to spend their money. Williams mentioned that while dungeon masters comprise roughly 20% of the D&D player base, they make up "the largest share of our paying players". An investment in digital, she posits, will allow Wizards of the Coast to "unlock the type of recurrent spending you see in digital games".

This shit again?

Even if they came up with a workable plan to "monetize" D&D, WOTC has proven spectacularly incompetent at implementing such plans.

Here is a line that is not the least bit shocking from the article:

"The executives are less worried about design than installing more on-ramps for players to spend their money"

Yeah, we figured that out on our own.   Its already at a point that the more I run 5e the less I like it already.   It's time for me to look at other systems to replace 5e because I cannot continue to support Wizards.

  Sounds like the same sorts of great plans around Star wars, Lord of the Rings, Marvel, etc.   I also suspect there will be a big concern around "sending the right messages" wrapped in there as well.  Fuck these people.

Yup, it seems to me that what they really need is a clear indication that they've created a great off ramp for people and will continue to shed their core if they keep shitting on it.

Quote from: S'mon on December 11, 2022, 02:53:44 AM
Saw this on my Facebook feed https://www.dicebreaker.com/categories/roleplaying-game/news/dungeons-and-dragons-under-monetised-says-executives?utm_source=social_sharing&fbclid=IwAR25ijqcfJgUwVd-bWKcnyfloOpa214dTdsvmzd53A-8rAP42CYDTmRa5O8

"D&D has never been more popular, and we have really great fans and engagement," Williams began. "But the brand is really under monetised."

The executives are less worried about design than installing more on-ramps for players to spend their money. Williams mentioned that while dungeon masters comprise roughly 20% of the D&D player base, they make up "the largest share of our paying players". An investment in digital, she posits, will allow Wizards of the Coast to "unlock the type of recurrent spending you see in digital games".

From a post of mine in another thread, edited to be midwit free:

An except From the Hasbro webinar:

Quote
Specifically at 34:08 in:
https://kvgo.com/ubs/hasbro-inc-webinar

"...digital will allow us options to create rewarding experiences post-sale that helps us unlock the type of recurrent spending you see in digital games, where more than 70% of revenue in digital games comes post-sale. The speed of digital means that we are able to expand from what is essentially a yearly book publishing model, to a reoccurring spending environment, and we're offering content that we know fans want."

Loaded with corporate speak, but there is now no room for doubt: Microtran$action$ for the win, are in.

It will be very interesting to see the effects on 5e player culture the OneVTT ecosystem will have on D&D going forward.

While it is a very different situation to what made Baizuo's pathfinder ascendant; I just can't help but feel that there is an opportunity here for someone willing to play the long game against WotC D&D...

Paradox is trying the same thing with their purchased properties, in addition to licensing a bunch of terrible video games.

This is consistent with what they've been doing to the races.

1. Make races less distinct.
2. Add a shit ton of new races and variants.
3. Sell access to official race kits and art.
4. Profit!

Just like video game cosmetics, which are notoriously profitable.

I expect to see microtransaction art packs for character portraits/icons in DNDone, with limited/no support for custom content.

The fact that the shareholder meeting call got leaked, if only in snippets thus far, is a HUGE indicator that folks who are heavily invested in the business because they love the product are EXTREMELY and RIOTOUSLY unhappy with the things they heard to the point where they decided to share at least some of it.

Their entire corporate and business strategy quite plainly said, was described as focusing almost exclusively on turning D&D into a, and I'm not even paraphrasing, "a lifestyle brand" and to also (now I'm paraphrasing) slap the D&D brand on as much non-TTRPG bullshit as they can manage, be it via digital recurring fee services, microtransactions, even MORE fucking merch, toys, movies, licensed video games (for that easy no investment royalty money), and "experiences that go beyond the game."

RIP D&D, Paizo and other smaller companies are going to eat VERY well when it comes to the folks who actually want to pay people who care about the GAME they are making and that the players want to, you know, play, rather than to "interact/interface" or be associated with. This is an even WORSE look and direction than 4e and frankly, it makes me start to think that this D&D brand "bubble" is going to burst sooner rather than later.

  Seem to be following the modern corporate model of donning the woke cloak and then doing everything you can to bleed customers dry... has the built in advantage of being able to label detractors as racists (which in the lexicon of modern talk is the WORST THING A PERSON CAN BE) to quell criticism.  Yay.

The best part is they actually told people this was the plan.

The sheer level of contempt for the customer is pure wotc.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 11, 2022, 06:09:28 AM
...
Even if they came up with a workable plan to "monetize" D&D, WOTC has proven spectacularly incompetent at implementing such plans

All the people at WotC who tried in the past are gone.

Hasbro has hired people with a solid track record of success in digital gaming.

Covered a bit in an earlier thread here:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/ray-winninger-done-at-wotc-more-digital-dudes-coming-in/msg1233263/#msg1233263

This is how serious WotC is about this:.

Ray ray's replacement, Kyle Brink's whole working life is essentially digital gaming. Tim Fields, WotC's Senior Vice President and General Manager of Digital Gaming. Is of a similar background. With an emphasis on the monetization of mobile games.

Now of course the proof will be in the pudding. But WotC's plans for D&Done and their VTT should not be lightly dismissed!

Quote from: Omega on December 11, 2022, 04:15:22 PM
The best part is they actually told people this was the plan.

The sheer level of contempt for the customer is pure wotc.

It's pure Harvard business school Loot Economics. Hasbro/WotC is all run by Microsoft suits now. They see nothing wrong with their plan.

The real best part is that they already have WotC fanboys out there saying that there is nothing to worry about, nothing bad will happen...

There is a segment of the WotC D&D fanbase that is already lapping it all up and thanking them for it. They are contemptuous for good reason!

Quote from: DefNotAnInsiderNopeNoWay on December 11, 2022, 02:21:02 PM
The fact that the shareholder meeting call got leaked, if only in snippets thus far, is a HUGE indicator that folks who are heavily invested in the business because they love the product are EXTREMELY and RIOTOUSLY unhappy with the things they heard to the point where they decided to share at least some of it.

It wasn't leaked. It was open to anyone that wanted to listen in.

That's how little they care what the hobbyist base thinks.

Quote from: DefNotAnInsiderNopeNoWay on December 11, 2022, 02:21:02 PM
RIP D&D, Paizo and other smaller companies are going to eat VERY well when it comes to the folks who actually want to pay people who care about the GAME they are making and that the players want to, you know, play, rather than to "interact/interface" or be associated with. This is an even WORSE look and direction than 4e and frankly, it makes me start to think that this D&D brand "bubble" is going to burst sooner rather than later.

Baizuo is a converged company stricken with corporate cancer; They will be unable to pivot to take advantage of the direction that WotC is going.

It's what the other companies will do that will prove interesting to watch... 

In my opinion; Not only is no company currently out there making product in any position to take advantage of the coming shift. Not a single one of them are moving in a direction that will enable them to do so.

Now they could be making plans behind closed doors, but I find that unlikely...

I'd think Paizo's strategy should be obvious.  Wait for OneD&D to come out and then release Pathfinder Classic, going back to the original but tightening up in a couple places.

Quote from: Omega on December 11, 2022, 04:15:22 PM
The best part is they actually told people this was the plan.

The sheer level of contempt for the customer is pure wotc.

The type of people that buy skins and other in game purchases are unlikely to have heard about this or to care about this. Most others will think great, let the idiots pay as long as its cheap to play with the basic skins and such.

Quote from: David Johansen on December 11, 2022, 06:06:58 PM
I'd think Paizo's strategy should be obvious.  Wait for OneD&D to come out and then release Pathfinder Classic, going back to the original but tightening up in a couple places.

Pathfinder 2 isn't terrible. It cleans up a lot of the general weirdness from 3e

Quote from: Jaeger on December 11, 2022, 04:43:38 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 11, 2022, 06:09:28 AM
...
Even if they came up with a workable plan to "monetize" D&D, WOTC has proven spectacularly incompetent at implementing such plans

All the people at WotC who tried in the past are gone.

Hasbro has hired people with a solid track record of success in digital gaming.

Covered a bit in an earlier thread here:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/ray-winninger-done-at-wotc-more-digital-dudes-coming-in/msg1233263/#msg1233263

This is how serious WotC is about this:.

Ray ray's replacement, Kyle Brink's whole working life is essentially digital gaming. Tim Fields, WotC's Senior Vice President and General Manager of Digital Gaming. Is of a similar background. With an emphasis on the monetization of mobile games.

Now of course the proof will be in the pudding. But WotC's plans for D&Done and their VTT should not be lightly dismissed!

I'm not dismissing it. I think they will try and fail spectacularly because table top RPGs are not video games. I can (and have) made my own systems. I don't need WOTC to play my 2nd edition D&D. They might gather a few bucks from quality of life elements in their online apps for the current edition, but I doubt this is going to be a wild success like they imagine it.

Quote from: David Johansen on December 11, 2022, 06:06:58 PM
I'd think Paizo's strategy should be obvious.  Wait for OneD&D to come out and then release Pathfinder Classic, going back to the original but tightening up in a couple places.

If you're suggesting a return to 3.X style mechanics, I don't think that'd work all that well unless you did a lot of work (and doing such work is necessarily going to lead you into making a new system).

I think they are all-in on the underwhelming Pathfinder 2.

Quote from: David Johansen on December 11, 2022, 06:06:58 PM
I'd think Paizo's strategy should be obvious.  Wait for OneD&D to come out and then release Pathfinder Classic, going back to the original but tightening up in a couple places.

I personally believe that Baizuo is creatively bankrupt and psychologically incapable of making such a shift.

That, and the fact that they are pot-invested in PF2. No way they abandon that baby mid-stream...

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 11, 2022, 06:37:32 PM
...
I'm not dismissing it. I think they will try and fail spectacularly because table top RPGs are not video games. I can (and have) made my own systems. I don't need WOTC to play my 2nd edition D&D. They might gather a few bucks from quality of life elements in their online apps for the current edition, but I doubt this is going to be a wild success like they imagine it.

They are not, but the current generation of 5e 'story hour' theatre kids run the game like it is one.

The DnDone/OneVTT ecosystem is being purpose built for the new cool kids. WotC has long since told the old guard that they don't need them any more.

WotC is making a bet: That all the new 'fans' that have come to the game recently will allow them to ignore the 'old school' crowd that they tried to bring back into the fold with 5e.

I am of the opinion that in the short run that bet will come through, as all the cool kids will run to the new shiny. But in the long term; I think that there is real opportunity for a company that is willing to emphasize live play at the table.

Also there is the fact that WotC is terminally riddled with corporate cancer...

The thing is that the executives don't care about "roleplaying games" they care about brands and monetization.  You don't have to play the game to wear the T Shirt.  They see a powerful brand name having a cultural moment and want to make a buck and that's fine.  But there's a deep and abiding failure to understand what D&D is or was or can be to the people who play it.  The thing is it's not censored entertainment, it's not Disney.  It's a bit like the woke outrage over Cards Against Humanity a couple years ago.  The game that tries its hardest to be offensive has offended someone, oh no, what are we going to do.  A great deal of D&D's appeal is transgressive, and the other part is enabling personal creativity and ideas.  Not what corporat hacks want to be selling at all.

Anyhow, the brilliance of my "obvious direction" for Paizo is that it doesn't require creation, just regurgitation.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 11, 2022, 08:29:56 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on December 11, 2022, 06:06:58 PM
I'd think Paizo's strategy should be obvious.  Wait for OneD&D to come out and then release Pathfinder Classic, going back to the original but tightening up in a couple places.

I personally believe that Baizuo is creatively bankrupt and psychologically incapable of making such a shift.

That, and the fact that they are pot-invested in PF2. No way they abandon that baby mid-stream...

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 11, 2022, 06:37:32 PM
...
I'm not dismissing it. I think they will try and fail spectacularly because table top RPGs are not video games. I can (and have) made my own systems. I don't need WOTC to play my 2nd edition D&D. They might gather a few bucks from quality of life elements in their online apps for the current edition, but I doubt this is going to be a wild success like they imagine it.

They are not, but the current generation of 5e 'story hour' theatre kids run the game like it is one.

The DnDone/OneVTT ecosystem is being purpose built for the new cool kids. WotC has long since told the old guard that they don't need them any more.

WotC is making a bet: That all the new 'fans' that have come to the game recently will allow them to ignore the 'old school' crowd that they tried to bring back into the fold with 5e.

I am of the opinion that in the short run that bet will come through, as all the cool kids will run to the new shiny. But in the long term; I think that there is real opportunity for a company that is willing to emphasize live play at the table.

Also there is the fact that WotC is terminally riddled with corporate cancer...

This is why we should introduce Burning Wheel to these theater kids. Give them something built for narratives, and let them have fun. Do not let them fuck up DND.

Quote from: David Johansen on December 11, 2022, 08:48:20 PM
The thing is that the executives don't care about "roleplaying games" they care about brands and monetization.  You don't have to play the game to wear the T Shirt.  They see a powerful brand name having a cultural moment and want to make a buck and that's fine.

Yep. D&D has been merchandised since it became popular in the 70's-80's. Shrinky dinks and coloring books and all that.

Quote from: S'mon on December 11, 2022, 02:53:44 AM
Saw this on my Facebook feed https://www.dicebreaker.com/categories/roleplaying-game/news/dungeons-and-dragons-under-monetised-says-executives?utm_source=social_sharing&fbclid=IwAR25ijqcfJgUwVd-bWKcnyfloOpa214dTdsvmzd53A-8rAP42CYDTmRa5O8

"D&D has never been more popular, and we have really great fans and engagement," Williams began. "But the brand is really under monetised."

The executives are less worried about design than installing more on-ramps for players to spend their money. Williams mentioned that while dungeon masters comprise roughly 20% of the D&D player base, they make up "the largest share of our paying players". An investment in digital, she posits, will allow Wizards of the Coast to "unlock the type of recurrent spending you see in digital games".

I spent a great part of a decade in outside sales, working in multiple states.  We represented certain brands of hardware, software, industrial equipment, etc.  We represented many different brands.  Every single company we represented, had the unreal expectation that their revenue should increase every year in every sales territory.  Not one single company was ever satisfied, just being successful and making a profit.  They would fire profitable representation, just to see if someone else could help them generate more revenue.

QuoteHasbro CEO Chris Cocks and Wizards of the Coast CEO and president Cynthia Williams

Any relation to Lorraine?

Yes!  8) I finally get a second chance at that D&D wood burning kit!

Maybe if we're really good we'll get a D&D Chia Pet! ;D Or a D&D friendship bracelet kit!

/sarcasm tag for these dark ages for irony.

So, basically, WotC wants to turn D&D into a video game? They may be able to make enough profit from such a shift, but I doubt they will be able to keep the majority of their player base, many of whom will probably quit playing ttrpgs altogether. Other companies could conceivably benefit from WotC's move, but I doubt it will be Paizo. However, it could be a boon for OSR or perhaps for Free League's Year Zero Engine.

Maybe WotC should, oh, I don't know, try aiming at the demographic that actually buys their games, instead of pandering to the Twitterati?

Quote from: Foxxxy Bruin on December 12, 2022, 08:06:26 AM
Maybe WotC should, oh, I don't know, try aiming at the demographic that actually buys their games, instead of pandering to the Twitterati?

More people play videogames than play TTRPG's.

This is the non-D&D playing WotC Braintrust at the top "Leveraging the D&D Brand" for "Robust Service" to current base while "Reaching Out" to new consumers while at the same time "Throwing one Over the Fence" to the Shareholders. By using the same "Bleeding Edge" methods in the Mobile Games space, WotC can go for the "Low-Hanging Fruit" that currently enjoys their products virtually, by initiating "Blue Sky Thinking" and "Thought Showering" for maximal "Market Capture". By sending out WotC's "Tiger Teams" to corral the influencers on social-media, WotC believes this will "Gain Traction" from the established 5e fans where they can "Drill Down" on initial responses, where once they find the "Silver Bullet", WotC can begin "Moving the Goalposts" in order to keep "Moving the Needle" until like the Digital Fruitcompany's model, the "A-Ha Moment" will be reached, and the D&D players will be safely contained in the OneDnD Ecosystem(tm).

At least that's the "Key Takeways".


(This statement was made by the Committee Office for Media Enterprises System Tracking And Idea Networks and has nor bearing on the Corporate gaming production-sphere writ large.)

Elon should buy Wokies of the Coast.

I wouldn't mind if they made a Neverwinter Nights 3 or something. Neverwinter Nights 1 is getting pretty long in the tooth, even with the enhanced edition released a few years ago. The graphics look really bad. Neverwinter Nights 2 is in legal limbo and won't get an enhanced edition.

But it's obvious that WotC wants to make mobile game shovelware

Quote from: Jaeger on December 11, 2022, 08:29:56 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on December 11, 2022, 06:06:58 PM
I'd think Paizo's strategy should be obvious.  Wait for OneD&D to come out and then release Pathfinder Classic, going back to the original but tightening up in a couple places.

I personally believe that Baizuo is creatively bankrupt and psychologically incapable of making such a shift.

That, and the fact that they are pot-invested in PF2. No way they abandon that baby mid-stream...

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 11, 2022, 06:37:32 PM
...
I'm not dismissing it. I think they will try and fail spectacularly because table top RPGs are not video games. I can (and have) made my own systems. I don't need WOTC to play my 2nd edition D&D. They might gather a few bucks from quality of life elements in their online apps for the current edition, but I doubt this is going to be a wild success like they imagine it.

They are not, but the current generation of 5e 'story hour' theatre kids run the game like it is one.

The DnDone/OneVTT ecosystem is being purpose built for the new cool kids. WotC has long since told the old guard that they don't need them any more.

WotC is making a bet: That all the new 'fans' that have come to the game recently will allow them to ignore the 'old school' crowd that they tried to bring back into the fold with 5e.

I am of the opinion that in the short run that bet will come through, as all the cool kids will run to the new shiny. But in the long term; I think that there is real opportunity for a company that is willing to emphasize live play at the table.

Also there is the fact that WotC is terminally riddled with corporate cancer...

And yet, WotC is out there making Paizo look flat fucking sane by comparison.

Yes, that's what every goddamn gamer has been aching for, WotC: microtransactions in our fucking RPGs.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 12, 2022, 11:43:49 AM
And yet, WotC is out there making Paizo look flat fucking sane by comparison.

Yes, that's what every goddamn gamer has been aching for, WotC: microtransactions in our fucking RPGs.

True, but WotC has D&D, and the market leader position...

In a sane world all the 4e fuckery should have permanently soured the fanbase against WotC; Yet when 5e dropped they all came running back as fast as they could, begging for more; Because D&D.

RPG fans love, love, love, love, their first mover IP.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on December 12, 2022, 07:36:36 AM
So, basically, WotC wants to turn D&D into a video game? They may be able to make enough profit from such a shift, but I doubt they will be able to keep the majority of their player base, many of whom will probably quit playing ttrpgs altogether. Other companies could conceivably benefit from WotC's move, but I doubt it will be Paizo. However, it could be a boon for OSR or perhaps for Free League's Year Zero Engine.

With 4th Edition, they tried to fend off their video game competition.  Now they want to "become" their own video game competition.

Is WotC going to make their own VTT?

I ask because a few weeks before they announced One D&D, DriveThruRPG and Roll20 announced that they were merging their companies. So, they are either trying to make a company that is big enough to survive the loss of D&D users, or they are trying to make a more valuable company that will collect the most money when Hasbro buys them out.

Wouldn't surprise me to see either (a) WotC buys DTRPG/Roll20 or (b) DTRPG/Roll20 makes Pathfinder 5E.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 12, 2022, 12:36:29 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 12, 2022, 11:43:49 AM
And yet, WotC is out there making Paizo look flat fucking sane by comparison.

Yes, that's what every goddamn gamer has been aching for, WotC: microtransactions in our fucking RPGs.

True, but WotC has D&D, and the market leader position...

In a sane world all the 4e fuckery should have permanently soured the fanbase against WotC; Yet when 5e dropped they all came running back as fast as they could, begging for more; Because D&D.

RPG fans love, love, love, love, their first mover IP.

Brand loyalty in this market is so stupid. The corpos don't care about you, so make your own games or patronize indies. Stop encouraging the corpos!

Quote from: oggsmash on December 11, 2022, 12:38:36 PM
  Sounds like the same sorts of great plans around Star wars, Lord of the Rings, Marvel, etc.   I also suspect there will be a big concern around "sending the right messages" wrapped in there as well.  Fuck these people.

In fairness, execs seem to believe sufficient woke can create a "must buy this or I'll be considered unclean" mindset.

Actual results in the field are mixed. MCU has had some successes with this, Black Panther, some modern successes, Captain Marvel, and some failures, Wakanda Forever.

I do not think this is true in D&D. In fact, I think D&D as a brand is bad for a company like Hasbro to hold because it cannot be monetized long term like most corporate brands are.

But much like "you can't get fired for buying IBM" right now you can't get fired for going woke or over monetizing.

Quote from: Zelen on December 11, 2022, 02:14:03 PM
I expect to see microtransaction art packs for character portraits/icons in DNDone, with limited/no support for custom content.

If you're a Fortune 500 or 1000 company with a brand you want monetized, anything DIY around it is the enemy.

Adventures, 3rd party materials without insane royalties (not DMs Guild level), custom art not sold through you...all the enemy.

But, that is what makes D&D more than a fad. D&D has been a fad twice before and survived. Hasbro is going to try and make the third, and biggest, fad last forever as a cash cow.

Quote from: oggsmash on December 11, 2022, 02:40:44 PM
  Seem to be following the modern corporate model of donning the woke cloak and then doing everything you can to bleed customers dry... has the built in advantage of being able to label detractors as racists (which in the lexicon of modern talk is the WORST THING A PERSON CAN BE) to quell criticism.  Yay.

Woke is the current "moral" shield for immoral acts that all they way back to Adam Smith were recognized as fatal to free markets.

What is interesting is that woke is the most successful shield. Speculations about why probably belong in a different area.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 11, 2022, 08:29:56 PM

I am of the opinion that in the short run that bet will come through, as all the cool kids will run to the new shiny. But in the long term; I think that there is real opportunity for a company that is willing to emphasize live play at the table.

Also there is the fact that WotC is terminally riddled with corporate cancer...

I think the real miscalculation is chasing cool kids is always a short term game. If you do it in a way that doesn't destroy your baseline fan base you can reap a nice bonus when the cool fad comes around to you. If you do it in a way that destroys your baseline you need to make damn sure what you make now makes up for those lost future cash flows and funds something to replace them.

Quote from: PulpHerb on December 12, 2022, 03:30:15 PM
...
I think the real miscalculation is chasing cool kids is always a short term game. If you do it in a way that doesn't destroy your baseline fan base you can reap a nice bonus when the cool fad comes around to you. If you do it in a way that destroys your baseline you need to make damn sure what you make now makes up for those lost future cash flows and funds something to replace them.

That is the bet WotC is counting on - that in the past 8 years so many new players have jumped on the kool kids 'DnD' gravy train, that they can leave the old guard in the dust and barely register the loss...

Quote from: PulpHerb on December 12, 2022, 03:30:15 PM
...Brand loyalty in this market is so stupid. The corpos don't care about you, so make your own games or patronize indies. Stop encouraging the corpos!

But it is there.

Aside from licensed IP like Conan, LoTR,  and Star Wars, every profitable niche in RPG's has been taken and occupied by the 90's at the latest.

That's why to go against WotC you can't count on getting lucky like baizuo did - you need to be prepared to play a very long game.

And even then you have to cross your fingers that the people at WotC don't get replaced with competent ones that can turn the game around with a new edition...

Hmmm...now a tech recruiter contacting me about working for WotC is starting to make more sense. Honestly IDGAF if they want to make D&D lunchboxes and hoodies or whatever, that's what you do with successful brands. The issue is the MAIN PRODUCT is starting to suck royal ass. If they actually had a good version of the game I wanted to play, I'd probably be a lot more apt to get a t-shirt with the logo emblazoned on it, but I wouldn't be caught dead wearing that stuff now. I think this is just a last ditch to squeeze consumers for as much as they can get before people eventually stop caring about the brand entirely. Or maybe it turns simply into a brand, and the game disappears...there are a lot of people who are spending billions for what amounts to nostalgia with zero intention of ever actually using the product (a lot of retrogaming stuff, Star Wars figures, whatever).

I did see some job postings with WotC recently. Jobs on what I can only assume is part of their digital strategy. I would never myself nor recommend anyone I know work with WotC, with how things have degenerated there -- Probably a good idea to shed that hostile corporate culture if you want meaningfully talented people to work for you.

Quote from: Zelen on December 12, 2022, 08:52:52 PM
I did see some job postings with WotC recently. Jobs on what I can only assume is part of their digital strategy. I would never myself nor recommend anyone I know work with WotC, with how things have degenerated there -- Probably a good idea to shed that hostile corporate culture if you want meaningfully talented people to work for you.

The job I was approached with was a project management position for what I understood to be some sort of digital gaming platform. The pay was pathetic for the responsibilities and required experience/qualifications, so maybe they're just trying to appeal to gamers. I have heard places like EA also do not pay a decent wage when compared to industry-standards, so good luck to them trying to find someone competent I suppose. The guy from my PhD program I graduated with actually worked in the industry in Austin and he was banking, so there's money to be made, just not at WotC apparently.

How is a make your-own-adventure-kit a brand anyways? The GM makes or breaks the game, so D&D lunch box makes as littles sense as a "insert 3d printer brand here" lunch box.

Quote from: Wisithir on December 12, 2022, 09:49:54 PM
How is a make your-own-adventure-kit a brand anyways? The GM makes or breaks the game, so D&D lunch box makes as littles sense as a "insert 3d printer brand here" lunch box.

Just sell rules and art. Duh.

Quote from: Brad on December 12, 2022, 07:55:11 PM
Hmmm...now a tech recruiter contacting me about working for WotC is starting to make more sense. Honestly IDGAF if they want to make D&D lunchboxes and hoodies or whatever, that's what you do with successful brands. The issue is the MAIN PRODUCT is starting to suck royal ass. If they actually had a good version of the game I wanted to play, I'd probably be a lot more apt to get a t-shirt with the logo emblazoned on it, but I wouldn't be caught dead wearing that stuff now. I think this is just a last ditch to squeeze consumers for as much as they can get before people eventually stop caring about the brand entirely. Or maybe it turns simply into a brand, and the game disappears...there are a lot of people who are spending billions for what amounts to nostalgia with zero intention of ever actually using the product (a lot of retrogaming stuff, Star Wars figures, whatever).

Ding, ding, ding, ding, annnd we have a winner!!!

This is what Hasbro is trying to do with the whole 'lifestyle brand' nonsense.

Not they are not trying to make the game 'disappear', but if the D&D 'brand' gets put over like say, the pre-Endgame marvel films; the suits will not care.

RPG's are still a niche hobby, and as much as D&D has blown up, MtG still outsells it over 2:1 in cash money.

The Real money in the D&D brand isn't the game. It's the potential to leverage its place in popular culture into big money making items like toys, tv, AAA video games, and movies.

The whole 'microtransaction' One VTT stuff is a money squeezing sideshow to what WotC hopes will happen with the D&D brand...

Quote from: Brad on December 12, 2022, 08:59:57 PM

Quote from: Zelen on December 12, 2022, 08:52:52 PM
I did see some job postings with WotC recently. Jobs on what I can only assume is part of their digital strategy. I would never myself nor recommend anyone I know work with WotC, with how things have degenerated there -- Probably a good idea to shed that hostile corporate culture if you want meaningfully talented people to work for you.

The job I was approached with was a project management position for what I understood to be some sort of digital gaming platform. The pay was pathetic for the responsibilities and required experience/qualifications, so maybe they're just trying to appeal to gamers. I have heard places like EA also do not pay a decent wage when compared to industry-standards, so good luck to them trying to find someone competent I suppose. The guy from my PhD program I graduated with actually worked in the industry in Austin and he was banking, so there's money to be made, just not at WotC apparently.

Just as with jobs in the musical instrument and equipment industries, I'm sure WOTC thinks they can offer low pay and still attract people who have dreamed of having a cool job.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 12, 2022, 10:11:43 PM
RPG's are still a niche hobby, and as much as D&D has blown up, MtG still outsells it over 2:1 in cash money.

The Real money in the D&D brand isn't the game. It's the potential to leverage its place in popular culture into big money making items like toys, tv, AAA video games, and movies.

While I'm not saying you're wrong, this seems like a bet I'd rather be short than long on.

D&D's place in popular culture is nowhere near what Marvel comics had. Marvel arguably had a bigger presence in 1974 than D&D has today. DC comics had a bigger presence in 1974. While D&D hit regular bookstores, I don't remember Dragon having near the presence at newsstands that comics had into the 90s (I did buy a couple of issues at a news and book store, but never a newstand). Yet even those movie lines are boom and bust.

What art screams D&D a tenth as well as Batman, Superman, and Spiderman iconography?

A lifestyle brand needs more penetration for a longer time than D&D has ever had. If they can keep the current fad of playing going for another decade they might have the needed cultural background placement. Even then, they can't change iconic characters or trade dress. If they'd really wanted this the iconic characters from the 3e rule books, which seem to have had the most penetration, and art style should have continued until today.

Quote from: Brad on December 12, 2022, 08:59:57 PM
The job I was approached with was a project management position for what I understood to be some sort of digital gaming platform. The pay was pathetic for the responsibilities and required experience/qualifications, so maybe they're just trying to appeal to gamers. I have heard places like EA also do not pay a decent wage when compared to industry-standards, so good luck to them trying to find someone competent I suppose. The guy from my PhD program I graduated with actually worked in the industry in Austin and he was banking, so there's money to be made, just not at WotC apparently.

I'm in banking and from what I can see a programmer with a mathematical background and only a BS can do a lot better in certain types of banking than anything game related...or at least do just as well with less stress (be the back office, not the trade desk, however).

Quote from: PulpHerb on December 12, 2022, 11:47:28 PM
...
D&D's place in popular culture is nowhere near what Marvel comics had. Marvel arguably had a bigger presence in 1974 than D&D has today. DC comics had a bigger presence in 1974. While D&D hit regular bookstores, I don't remember Dragon having near the presence at newsstands that comics had into the 90s (I did buy a couple of issues at a news and book store, but never a newstand). Yet even those movie lines are boom and bust.

What art screams D&D a tenth as well as Batman, Superman, and Spiderman iconography?

A lifestyle brand needs more penetration for a longer time than D&D has ever had. If they can keep the current fad of playing going for another decade they might have the needed cultural background placement. Even then, they can't change iconic characters or trade dress. If they'd really wanted this the iconic characters from the 3e rule books, which seem to have had the most penetration, and art style should have continued until today.

True.

Which is why WotC is pouring a ton of money into into it to try and put it over.

The D&D 'brand' doesn't have to do crazy marvel movie money.

It just needs to get over enough that the toys, tv, AAA video games, and movies generate a decent ROI profit all on their own. Which when taken together should completely eclipse what the RPG pulls in.

In my opinion; The kicker for all this is that the movie really has to stick the landing...

If it just does ok, meh, current status quo. If it flops... that has big downstream implications for the toys, tv, and AAA video games.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 13, 2022, 03:47:18 AM
In my opinion; The kicker for all this is that the movie really has to stick the landing...

If it just does ok, meh, current status quo. If it flops... that has big downstream implications for the toys, tv, and AAA video games.

My money is on the movie face planting; the trailer has got the obvious "white males are buttmonkeys" elements, self-referetial irony and a rock music score that says the people involved don't really understand the source material and so are shooting for a satire.

Very few are going to be drawn into "I want to pay money to experience being a buttmonkey in a satirical setting." Frankly, the best marketing D&D ever got in terms of movies was The Lord of the Rings trilogy.

The ONLY way I see it possibly working is if they put a "Gamers" overlay onto it where the real story is about players around the table growing as people while playing this frankly ridiculous game.

Otherwise, I say it's destined for Flopville.

I think a TV show would work better for D&D because you'd have time and space to build up a setting.  I think the movie will be fun and brainless.  I don't think we'll get discussion between two fighters about the various advantages of the glaive-guisarme over the voulge so it will never truly speak to the true D&D fans.  Funny's fine if you're funny.  When I look at Disney's She Hulk tv show, it's greatest sin is that it's not very funny.  In a commedy there is no greater sin.  So if they're going to be funny, they really need to nail it because funny is one of the hardest things to do well.

Quote from: David Johansen on December 11, 2022, 08:48:20 PM
The thing is that the executives don't care about "roleplaying games" they care about brands and monetization.

It is worse than that. They are following whatever marketing tells them. Whatever marketing things is trending in the ad-wars. This is why outrage marketing is being pushed so hard. Its the new trend and it can be combined with the woke trend for exponentially more effect.

Piled on top of the garbage heap of so many other marketing obsessions.

I'm gonna play devils advocate here.

I think a lot of people (not necessarily anyone here) overlook the views of WotC's leaders.

So Hasbro/WotC has leaders that come from a specific paradigm. Each person in charge of WotC has slowly moved the needle away from what we generally agree is "Good D&D". Well if we're going to assume any honesty, these people have had very different gaming experiences and life experiences than us. D&D never required multi-level marketing in order to enjoy, but of course D&D is a corporate brand, now, that demands it because of their stakeholders.

It becomes easy to see how each succeeding leader of the D&D Brand has moved the needle into their area of expertise since 3e. And they're all hammers looking for nails to hit with that expertise. 3e became the era of System Mastery, which apotheosed into 4e under Rob Heinsoo, the implosion was what allowed Mike Mearls, who actually tried to reel it back in, but is still very much of the 3e era System Mastery crowd, but made 5e as an "apology edition" to everyone. And honestly I think only Mike could have done this. He's probably the least politicized of the then-WotC staff fit to make a stab at it. The results are... what they are.

But there are MUCH higher expectations of a corporate brand than what we are admitting we're willing to spend. We all know only GM's are the real whales. Because we want more content to use with our games. Players buy, generally, far less. So it makes perfect sense WotC is going to try and maximize monetization, who better than to get someone from Microsoft to turn the brand into a bloated hybrid Mobile App? Consider the fact that now Players will also *have* to spend gold to engage in what otherwise didn't require any investment at all?

Consider all the corollary items that will become virtualized? Your "mini" will be virtual. WotC can sell you customized appearances and other cosmetics. Why buy minis? Why learn how to paint? Why buy dice? WotC will likely have virtual dice-rollers and you can buy your own cosmetic virtual dice with effects!

And while some of you will sneer at it (I do). I'm honest enough to see that this might work for the new generation of gamers that are nose-in-phone. And to be honest, Mobile gaming is worth sneering at - yet, I am two-years into Marvel Strikeforce, and I tell myself I'm not going buy in-game currency, but I do on occasion. AND I HATE MOBILE GAMES. But yet... here is this game that scratches my long atrophied love for Magic the Gathering... and oh look! Classic Captain America costume! Neat I love how he bounces his shield off everyone's head... uhh...

And you bet your ass WotC is banking on this. Most of us, deservedly, will decry! "THIS IS NOT D&D"... and it isn't. But that's why its become so important for US to hold on to our traditionally played TTRPG's. Leave the beast. I'm SURE many people saying this will still dip their toes into the new D&D and find novelty. That's fine. But "Traditional D&D" will only survive with us - we need GM's to run them, we need players to step up and learn how to GM, we need veteran GM's to teach those players how to do it Old School.

I actually agree, after thinking about it, that D&D is undermonetized. BY THEIR STANDARDS. I have dropped a cent on Marvel Comics in any form since One More Day. Yet I've probably dropped at least $100 dollars over the last two years on a game I play casually and insist I don't spend money on intentionally... yet there it is. The same is true with D&D - I don't buy any WotC products. But I'm constantly looking at my old 1e/2e material for inspiration and general love. If I had to pay a dollar or two here and there to do so, I likely would.

WotC is banking on that.

Hasbro is publicly traded, so they are obliged to increase profits.  They need to sell to the largest available pool of people with money.  Their new former Microsoft staff know how to make money with online software subscriptions.  Micro-WOTC will go down that path with One End. 5e is player heavy with a DM shortage. One DnD will become the computer DM like other online games. 

Micro-WOTC wants to control all sales.  They see Micro-WOTC as competing with the current world of 3rd party 5e publishers. They will force 3rd parties to publish through One DnD.

In the end this will rip the heart out of official WOTC DnD, because DnD is a community hobby game where friends create their own adventures.  The OSR will remain as the heart and soul of DnD.

Quote from: engrgmr on December 14, 2022, 10:27:39 AM
Hasbro is publicly traded, so they are obliged to increase profits.  They need to sell to the largest available pool of people with money.  Their new former Microsoft staff know how to make money with online software subscriptions.  Micro-WOTC will go down that path with One End. 5e is player heavy with a DM shortage. One DnD will become the computer DM like other online games. 

Micro-WOTC wants to control all sales.  They see Micro-WOTC as competing with the current world of 3rd party 5e publishers. They will force 3rd parties to publish through One DnD.

In the end this will rip the heart out of official WOTC DnD, because DnD is a community hobby game where friends create their own adventures.  The OSR will remain as the heart and soul of DnD.

Yeah, agreed. The just don't understand, at a fundamental level, what ttrpgs are about. These business school, mba, execs, will tear it apart.

I think they should have had a few new and goo movies and a game under their belts before talking 'lifestyle brand'.

I was wondering earlier if the long term effect of D&D as a lifestyle brand will be there will always be a D&D ttrpg, probably a new version every 5 years ago...

Produced by a company that licenses the name. D&D becomes less the foundation stone game of the hobby, but a series of licensed games like all the Star Trek, Middle Earth, Conan, DC, and Marvel games we have had. The license would fail to renew for whatever reason only for another company to step and have their shot at D&D.

This seems like it would be the ideal setup for Hasbro.

Quote from: tenbones on December 14, 2022, 10:12:16 AMConsider all the corollary items that will become virtualized? Your "mini" will be virtual. WotC can sell you customized appearances and other cosmetics. Why buy minis? Why learn how to paint? Why buy dice? WotC will likely have virtual dice-rollers and you can buy your own cosmetic virtual dice with effects!And you bet your ass WotC is banking on this.

There is an entire generation gamers who are used to paying cash for cosmetics, for power-up, or to unlock new character types. Want to play a half-dragon, then just buy the "Legacy of Dragons" rulebook for $7.99 to unlock that species. Want to play a Dark Elf, buy the "Drizzt guide to the Underdark" book etc. Subscribe for a year and get a +2 item of your choice. Since it is all going through the app, it is a trivial feature to implement.

QuoteBut "Traditional D&D" will only survive with us - we need GM's to run them, we need players to step up and learn how to GM, we need veteran GM's to teach those players how to do it Old School.

Here's the thing. If Hasbro can create an app that allows Dungeon Masters to run games for money, then DMs will be readily available for the millions of people out there who want to play but don't have a group. If this can work, One D&D will be hugely successful and lucrative despite any protests against the monetization.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 14, 2022, 05:57:08 PM
Here's the thing. If Hasbro can create an app that allows Dungeon Masters to run games for money, then DMs will be readily available for the millions of people out there who want to play but don't have a group. If this can work, One D&D will be hugely successful and lucrative despite any protests against the monetization.

Turning DNDone into basically Grindr for DMs actually seems plausible, although I wonder how nightmarish it would be in the drama department. There are a lot of very socially maladaptive people in these communities (e.g. Wizards of the Coast staff) so I would expect a lot of disputes arising from hooking up people in a relatively random way. If finances are involved, even more so.

Quote from: Zelen on December 14, 2022, 06:40:54 PM
Turning DNDone into basically Grindr for DMs actually seems plausible, although I wonder how nightmarish it would be in the drama department. There are a lot of very socially maladaptive people in these communities (e.g. Wizards of the Coast staff) so I would expect a lot of disputes arising from hooking up people in a relatively random way. If finances are involved, even more so.

Considering the entire session is on WotC's own platform, they would have complete recordings of everything said and done during the session. So the DM's could suspend a player and an employee of WotC could easily review the suspension if the player contests it.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 14, 2022, 05:57:08 PM
If Hasbro can create an app that allows Dungeon Masters to run games for money, then DMs will be readily available for the millions of people out there who want to play but don't have a group. If this can work, One D&D will be hugely successful and lucrative despite any protests against the monetization.

I already know of a number of GMs who are running games for money. It has been going on for a while, but it's picked up a lot in the last few years. That's one of the secondary markets that they're hoping to get in on.

In general, I find that tabletop RPGs are ridiculously cheap in terms of entertainment per dollar spent on products used directly in play. The most costly thing for me in RPGs is buying a bunch of books that I don't use. I've got hundreds are RPGs I've never played, adventures I haven't run, etc. If I could spend smaller payments only on stuff that I actually use, that might be a great improvement.

I'm doubtful that WotC could actually achieve that for me, but I don't think they're evil or foolish for trying it.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 14, 2022, 05:57:08 PM
...
Here's the thing. If Hasbro can create an app that allows Dungeon Masters to run games for money, then DMs will be readily available for the millions of people out there who want to play but don't have a group. If this can work, One D&D will be hugely successful and lucrative despite any protests against the monetization.

^This^ is WotC's solution to the six-session "camapign.

They should have many pre-made modules of varying lengths ready to buy so that being a GM becomes as plug-and-play as possible.

They will want to "democratize" GMing, so that all you have to do is paint by the numbers in the DnDoneVTT.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 14, 2022, 07:38:59 PM
Considering the entire session is on WotC's own platform, they would have complete recordings of everything said and done during the session. So the DM's could suspend a player and an employee of WotC could easily review the suspension if the player contests it.

That place is going to be more informant ridden than former East Germany, and the GM's are going to get it hard and fast too...

I think people have no idea how hard the GM's are going to be made to toe the line, and walk on eggshells so as not to offend and possibly drive away any of those newly monetized players.

Quote from: Ruprecht on December 14, 2022, 04:30:34 PM
I think they should have had a few new and goo movies and a game under their belts before talking 'lifestyle brand'.

Last check Solomon was still blockading any D&D movie or cartoon media.

buuuuut

Looks like Hasbro took him to court sometime 2014 and Solomon had to settle out of court. Im not seeing Solomon's name on any of the credits so far now where a year or three ago there was credit to his company in a trailer. Verrry interesting.

and good lord! He had the media rights to Traveller???

It sounds increasingly as if OneD&D will be a money-focused cult rather than a part of the ttrpg hobby.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 14, 2022, 05:57:08 PM
There is an entire generation gamers who are used to paying cash for cosmetics, for power-up, or to unlock new character types. Want to play a half-dragon, then just buy the "Legacy of Dragons" rulebook for $7.99 to unlock that species. Want to play a Dark Elf, buy the "Drizzt guide to the Underdark" book etc. Subscribe for a year and get a +2 item of your choice. Since it is all going through the app, it is a trivial feature to implement.

Yep. And there is nothing to be done about that. And this further is proof they're mutating D&D into more of a mobile-game model. I'm not against that, because I don't look at D&D or any RPG in that configuration as a TTRPG. Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 are still some of the best computer RPG's ever made, they didn't affect my TTRPG hobby *at all*. And if they go this route with D&D, which they are, this will leave us back in our native habitat without them. And perhaps without D&D in a real functional sense. The only people that will suffer are people that want to play "The New Thing" but in a traditional TTRPG way - which to me remains to be seen.

I'm looking at this like WotC is the rampaging Horde that just decimated TTRPG's and are now moving on. They've swallowed up our young and rolling onward. WE are left, and we can get back to the business of playing TTRPG's as they should be played. I'm not against apps, and efficiencies by using technology etc. I'm against these systems *being* the game itself.

Just like I'm not a fan of modern D&D where the mechanics themselves are the game rather than the interactions themselves at the table.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 14, 2022, 05:57:08 PMHere's the thing. If Hasbro can create an app that allows Dungeon Masters to run games for money, then DMs will be readily available for the millions of people out there who want to play but don't have a group. If this can work, One D&D will be hugely successful and lucrative despite any protests against the monetization.

I'm perfectly fine with this. Just like I don't give any credence to people who follow and play League of Legends, or any other form of game that is not TTRPG's in the way we engage with them, *they* are leaving us. And to me, that's great. The D&D brand left us years ago. But people still act like "newer is better" and follow the brand as if it is defined by whomever owns the license. At *some* point one realizes we're playing different games. And while I may not convince someone on a forum there are other TTRPG's out there *better* than 5e, those people will soon come to reality when their 5e game is now being played like a Mobile Game, and it won't feel "as they think it should". They'll either leave the hobby or discover some older brand of D&D, or stick with the 5e refugees - which I'm confident there will be plenty. The fallout of all this should be US, in whatever form we engage with the hobby in a traditional TTRPG sense, welcome them in.

OneDnD is creating their own ship to somewhere. I bid them a fond farewell. When they leave, it'll be time to get back to gaming with people that want the real stuff. Now let's roll some actual dice.

Quote from: tenbones on December 15, 2022, 08:21:06 AM
Just like I'm not a fan of modern D&D where the mechanics themselves are the game rather than the interactions themselves at the table.

This is not a new thing. Back in the day, circa 1980, we called them rules lawyers, hack-n-slashers and a bunch of other related terms. I have been involved in organized gaming for decades now and I see the same bell curve of players type, young and old, today as I did back in the day. With the middle of the curve is firmly on those who are there to have fun, appreciate some choices, and like to have a little consistency.

Quote from: tenbones on December 15, 2022, 08:21:06 AM
OneDnD is creating their own ship to somewhere. I bid them a fond farewell. When they leave, it'll be time to get back to gaming with people that want the real stuff. Now let's roll some actual dice.

My prediction is if Wizards and Hasbro fucks up D&D and monetization then the hobby will fix it for them the same the hobby fixed the issues with D&D 4e with Pathfinder and to a lesser extent the OSR. If they don't fuck it, then the hobby's kaleidoscope of choices will continue unabated with well-supported niches throughout.

It not going to be mean the end of Wizard's D&D because once they realize "O shit we just did D&D 4e all over again". They still have the blueprint for what they did for the runup to 5e on file. And it certainly not going to be mean the end of D&D as somebody else will be viewed as the standard bearer much in the way that it was Paizo's Pathfinder was viewed as the true successor to D&D 3.5.

The most annoying part of this will be the fact we will have to hear about it over and over again because it takes about 3 to 4 years to fully play out. But it will play out and not end well even if everybody on this forums worst case scenario comes to pass. The hobby has the tools to fix this. They fixed this in the past and will do so again.

Totally agree. And it's people like yourself, Pundit, Venger etc. and to a lesser extent me (as I'm preparing to start publishing) that can potentially benefit from the churn.

It'll self-correct, and there will be people that fall out of the hobby, there will be those that will only know OneD&D as their D&D, and there will be those that will rage and stick to their 5e... who will likewise either fallout or be part of those that move on to other games.

But the hobby will endure.

I am seeing some OSR fans (not necessarily here) behaving frankly like Marxists about this. Decrying "corporate greed" as if WOTC/Hasbro is some non-profit. As if the purpose of a corporation isn't to make money for it's shareholders, and as if it's not a duty of a publicly held corporation to make increasing profits for its shareholders.

For a group which tends to be anti-Woke and anti-socialist, it smacks as awful socialist to see this sentiment when it comes to THEIR hobby.

Man, WOTC is going to try and make more products and services which people will want to buy. That's it. They're going to make movies they think people will pay to see. Video games they think people will pay to buy and play. Board games and card games and dice games people will want to buy and play. Toys people will want to buy. And yeah, a virtual tabletop which they think will be so much better than the competitors out there that people will want to pay a subscription fee for it and maybe a fee for things like digital miniatures for it. And if people don't like those things they won't buy them, and if they do they will. That's all this shit is. They're not "forcing" anyone to buy anything to continue to play the game (they even committed to still making hardcopy game books) they just want to come up with more things to sell that people will want to buy because they think it's cool.

And yeah, D&D is deeply under monetized relative to what it could be. It has 1) more players than MtG, and 2) MUCH more general brand recognition than MtG. But it makes much less per player than D&D. Why? It shouldn't. It's just they're not selling enough stuff people want to buy with D&D. And there is nothing wrong with them selling more stuff I, and many others, will want to buy. That's capitalism.

And frankly if you're against them selling stuff people want to buy, then don't go calling yourself anti-socialist.

Quote from: Mistwell on December 16, 2022, 05:43:57 PM
I am seeing some OSR fans (not necessarily here) behaving frankly like Marxists about this. Decrying "corporate greed" as if WOTC/Hasbro is some non-profit. As if the purpose of a corporation isn't to make money for it's shareholders, and as if it's not a duty of a publicly held corporation to make increasing profits for its shareholders.

For a group which tends to be anti-Woke and anti-socialist, it smacks as awful socialist to see this sentiment when it comes to THEIR hobby.

Man, WOTC is going to try and make more products and services which people will want to buy. That's it. They're going to make movies they think people will pay to see. Video games they think people will pay to buy and play. Board games and card games and dice games people will want to buy and play. Toys people will want to buy. And yeah, a virtual tabletop which they think will be so much better than the competitors out there that people will want to pay a subscription fee for it and maybe a fee for things like digital miniatures for it. And if people don't like those things they won't buy them, and if they do they will. That's all this shit is. They're not "forcing" anyone to buy anything to continue to play the game (they even committed to still making hardcopy game books) they just want to come up with more things to sell that people will want to buy because they think it's cool.

And yeah, D&D is deeply under monetized relative to what it could be. It has 1) more players than MtG, and 2) MUCH more general brand recognition than MtG. But it makes much less per player than D&D. Why? It shouldn't. It's just they're not selling enough stuff people want to buy with D&D. And there is nothing wrong with them selling more stuff I, and many others, will want to buy. That's capitalism.

And frankly if you're against them selling stuff people want to buy, then don't go calling yourself anti-socialist.

I, for one, applaud WotC's move because it will hurt the 5e fanatics, while people like me will happily go on their way, as we only need paper, pencils, and dice. I'm certainly interested in OneD&D and WotC's activities from a business point of view, but they have absolutely no impact on my gaming table.

Quote from: Mistwell on December 16, 2022, 05:43:57 PM
I am seeing some OSR fans (not necessarily here) behaving frankly like Marxists about this. Decrying "corporate greed" as if WOTC/Hasbro is some non-profit. As if the purpose of a corporation isn't to make money for it's shareholders, and as if it's not a duty of a publicly held corporation to make increasing profits for its shareholders.

I agree with this general observation, and I will in all likelihood run D&DOne, but I'll point out it's also anti-socialist to "vote with your dollars" by supporting a different product from a different company, which sounds like what a lot of the upset people are going to do.

Quote from: Mistwell on December 16, 2022, 05:43:57 PM
I am seeing some OSR fans (not necessarily here) behaving frankly like Marxists about this. Decrying "corporate greed" as if WOTC/Hasbro is some non-profit. As if the purpose of a corporation isn't to make money for it's shareholders, and as if it's not a duty of a publicly held corporation to make increasing profits for its shareholders.

I think there's a difference between the Free Market system and the sort of predatory/exploitative system that focuses on microtransactions for potentially randomized items* that is likely. A quality good/service at a fair price is not what people are complaining about; its the potentially targeting kids with the same gambling weakness targeting methods used by the most unscrupulous video game distributors.

I would also argue about the problem of fiduciary laws being written to force public corporations to only focus on short term profit even at the expense of a corporation's long term growth/sustainable operations... but that's not really on topic for this particular discussion.

* If you think a micro-transaction-based D&Done won't use randomized loot boxes you haven't been paying attention to both who they've hired for the digital content and who WotC has always been (MtG, D&D minis, etc... MtG is unironically called "Crack the Addiction" for a reason).

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 17, 2022, 08:11:47 AM
...its the potentially targeting kids with the same gambling weakness targeting methods used by the most unscrupulous video game distributors.

Caveat emptor applies to parents too.

As far as I've ever seen, free market capitalism is a vivid jungle full of glorious freedom and ignominious predation; it's mom and dad's job to make sure junior doesn't get parasitized.

Any business needs to be run so it makes money. 

We just don't like thinking we're being fleeced.  It feels like we're being taken advantage of. 

It's one of the reasons I like Basic Fantasy.  It's free digitally, and sold at cost physically.  Even I think Chris Gonnerman should make some money, but I can't stop him from giving away a good product.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on December 17, 2022, 09:03:25 PM
Any business needs to be run so it makes money. 

We just don't like thinking we're being fleeced.  It feels like we're being taken advantage of. 

It's one of the reasons I like Basic Fantasy.  It's free digitally, and sold at cost physically.  Even I think Chris Gonnerman should make some money, but I can't stop him from giving away a good product.

Its why some despise edition treamills and the damn 5 year plan.
Just as a game is gainits legs, yank the rug out and hey new edition! 5e has survived the longest. But we all knew this was coming. I am just surprised it took so long for them to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

Quote from: S'mon on December 11, 2022, 02:53:44 AM
Saw this on my Facebook feed https://www.dicebreaker.com/categories/roleplaying-game/news/dungeons-and-dragons-under-monetised-says-executives?utm_source=social_sharing&fbclid=IwAR25ijqcfJgUwVd-bWKcnyfloOpa214dTdsvmzd53A-8rAP42CYDTmRa5O8

"D&D has never been more popular, and we have really great fans and engagement," Williams began. "But the brand is really under monetised."

The executives are less worried about design than installing more on-ramps for players to spend their money. Williams mentioned that while dungeon masters comprise roughly 20% of the D&D player base, they make up "the largest share of our paying players". An investment in digital, she posits, will allow Wizards of the Coast to "unlock the type of recurrent spending you see in digital games".

Or in other words, Hasbro wants to find a way to make more money from D&D. There is nothing wrong with this. The problem with these guys, heartless ESG driven corporations and woke wackos, is that they have not been doing a very good job of that lately. Instead of finding and adding new customers they tend to run off the old customers without developing those shiny new (politically correct woke) customers to take their place.

There is nothing wrong with expanding your customer base, perhaps by using the brand identification to enter new markets. Common sense would dictate that you need to be careful not to lose the original market and thus damage your brand. It would be like Rolls-Royce coming up with a small economy car to compete with Toyota. Even if it is a great car, it might result in the original buyers abandoning the brand without attracting those Toyota customers. On the other hand Ferrari, Harley Davidson, etc. have had some success with branching out into totally new markets like fashion, etc.

The key issue seems to me is don't insult and drive off your original customers. These Big Business corps are obsessed with ESG which is just a systematic method of imposing wokeness, and thus they develop a loathing for their original customers. I wonder how much of this talk of 'under monetizing' is about increasing sales revenue or just getting rid of your embarrassing non-woke customers?

Quote from: squirewaldo on December 18, 2022, 10:48:10 AM
The key issue seems to me is don't insult and drive off your original customers.

The beating of customers will continue until profits improve!

It's incredibly egocentric and narcissistic of me to gloat that I was right when people here and other places were shouting me down. But I was right. Ha!

I fucking hate myself for being right about this.

Oh well, the time has come to embrace the OSR, and other products. I'm starting a Savage Pathfinder game soon with some friends on Discord. That's going to be fun. It really is time to leave DnD behind.

In the humble spirit of my own vast magnanimity; I will address some points here:

Quote from: Mistwell on December 16, 2022, 05:43:57 PM
...
And yeah, D&D is deeply under monetized relative to what it could be. It has ...

Well, we must ask what it means to be under monetized...

Because both TSR and WotC have learned some hard lessons of what and how much the player base will absorb both from a game design and supplement/edition churn, and marketing perspective.

This is something that I'll circle back to...

Quote from: Mistwell on December 16, 2022, 05:43:57 PM
1) more players than MtG, and ...

Yes.

Quote from: Mistwell on December 16, 2022, 05:43:57 PM
2) MUCH more general brand recognition than MtG.

Oh hell yes.

Quote from: Mistwell on December 16, 2022, 05:43:57 PM
But it makes much less per player than D&D. Why? It shouldn't. ...

Why? There is no mystery here. Williams explained why in their webinar: https://kvgo.com/ubs/hasbro-inc-webinar

Which by now you should have actually listened to.

"...dungeon masters comprise roughly 20% of the D&D player base, they make up "the largest share of our paying players".

We must acknowledge that D&D just has a different pay to play dynamic than MtG.

For 4 people to play MtG they all have to have their own decks, and be fully conversant in the rules of the game.

MTG; four people playing = Four paying customers.

For four people to play D&D only one one person has to have a copy of the rules, and the others don't need to crack a book for the GM to tell them how to play.

D&D; four people playing = One paying customer.

Naturally the current WotC brain trust wants to bridge that gap. The trouble that they are running into is that bridging that three person gap of paying customers between the two games is hard.

Because they can't just sell more books to do it...

Quote from: Mistwell on December 16, 2022, 05:43:57 PM
It's just they're not selling enough stuff people want to buy with D&D. And there is nothing wrong with them selling more stuff ...

In my opinion; It depends entirely on what stuff they are selling...

TSR did a toy line. Bust.
TSR did a cartoon. Bust.
TSR did a movie. Mega Bust.
TSR did D&D comics. Also a Bust.
TSR did novels. Good for a bit, but dwindled into a Bust.
TSR did video games. Some memorable successes; then a few bad decisions, and Bust.
Also minis, branded dice, CCG etc,... Bust, bust, bust, bust, bust.

Reliably Monetizing the three non-book buying players in a four person group is hard.

"But, but players already buy mini's, character sketches, fancy Dice, and other geegaw's?"

True, but those purchases are spread out over myriad of vendors and manufacturers, with which TSR and WotC would have to compete. And as we saw with TSR; doing that is hard.

WotC seems to be doing ok with licensed geegaws, but that does not reliably monetize the non-book buying player base to nearly the same degree that MtG does for all its players.

Enter OneVTT:

WotC's solution is too create the OneVTT walled garden where virtual mini's, dice, and no doubt other PC cosmetic enhancements that will all be available for pennies on the dollar... If they can attract enough people over to OneVTT they will then employ the same gambler psychology that other digital games use to entice players to buy said virtual products via microtransactions; thereby monetizing the non-book buying players and (more importantly) keep their money firmly within the WotC umbrella.

Of course, it is common knowledge that Wotc is going to try to do all the Movie, tv, video games, comics, toy line stuff too. But those can be hit or miss...

Not that WotC is going to screw it all up, but the given the nature of those beasts, the OneVTT is far more of a sure thing long term. Which is why they will pound that drum HARD.

Especially since going into the Movie, tv, video games, comics, toy line stuff can have a negative effect on your brand if you get it wrong.

So outside of the OneVTT:

It's not just about making "more" stuff available; It is about making the right stuff in the right quantity that adds to the bottom line, but doesn't devalue the brand while you do so. Which Hasbro does not exactly have a clean track record on...

Quote from: Jaeger on December 18, 2022, 04:58:14 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 16, 2022, 05:43:57 PM
It's just they're not selling enough stuff people want to buy with D&D. And there is nothing wrong with them selling more stuff ...

In my opinion; It depends entirely on what stuff they are selling...

TSR did a toy line. Bust.
TSR did a cartoon. Bust.
TSR did a movie. Mega Bust.
TSR did D&D comics. Also a Bust.
TSR did novels. Good for a bit, but dwindled into a Bust.
TSR did video games. Some memorable successes; then a few bad decisions, and Bust.
Also minis, branded dice, CCG etc,... Bust, bust, bust, bust, bust.

Reliably Monetizing the three non-book buying players in a four person group is hard.

"But, but players already buy mini's, character sketches, fancy Dice, and other geegaw's?"

True, but those purchases are spread out over myriad of vendors and manufacturers, with which TSR and WotC would have to compete. And as we saw with TSR; doing that is hard.

WotC seems to be doing ok with licensed geegaws, but that does not reliably monetize the non-book buying player base to nearly the same degree that MtG does for all its players.

Enter OneVTT:

WotC's solution is too create the OneVTT walled garden where virtual mini's, dice, and no doubt other PC cosmetic enhancements that will all be available for pennies on the dollar... If they can attract enough people over to OneVTT they will then employ the same gambler psychology that other digital games use to entice players to buy said virtual products via microtransactions; thereby monetizing the non-book buying players and (more importantly) keep their money firmly within the WotC umbrella.

It seems to me that tou're phrasing this as "how can WotC evilly take money away from players". But as you pointed out regarding geegaws, most D&D players are happy to pay for things that will make their experience of playing D&D better. In the past, neither TSR nor WotC has reliably provided these, so it's only DMs who have paid.

Neither microtransactions or subscriptions are inherently unscrupulous or bad. For example, most players aren't interested in buying a $40 book like Mordenkeinen's Monsters of the Multiverse, but they might be happy to pay $1 each for a few of the playable races in it. There's nothing wrong with this. Likewise, if they have a subscription service that lets players cheaply rent access to a wide range of rules rather than paying hundreds up front, that would also be good.

Yes, WotC probably will have some lousy schemes like how they did randomized miniatures in the past. Such corporate logic has been a factor in both TSR and WotC for most of their production history, and essentially every other company producing very successful games. The edition treadmill is certainly part of this. Both TSR and WotC have produced a lot of drek that I haven't been interested in. But they've also produced a lot of stuff that I enjoy, including in the current era.

Currently, D&D is as successful as it has ever been. Two examples of that from my recent experience. Back in August, I went to the Grand Canyon with my son, and the park ranger who let us into the park noticed D&D stuff, and gushed how she was into D&D as well, and had a D&D group with other park rangers. I also ran a D&D game while at my church retreat in December, and seven members of my congregation signed up - including my pastor, who explained that he was curious about the game that his daughter played a lot of.

So as far as I can tell, WotC is running D&D pretty successfully in terms of getting people playing and having fun with it. I'm sure they'll continue to have missteps and screw-ups, but so does every company.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 18, 2022, 01:50:37 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on December 18, 2022, 10:48:10 AM
The key issue seems to me is don't insult and drive off your original customers.

The beating of customers will continue until profits improve!

Problem is one marketing push has been that fans and prior customers are expendable.

Quote from: jhkim on December 19, 2022, 02:29:56 AM
....
It seems to me that you're phrasing this as "how can WotC evilly take money away from players". But as you pointed out regarding geegaws, most D&D players are happy to pay for things that will make their experience of playing D&D better. In the past, neither TSR nor WotC has reliably provided these, so it's only DMs who have paid.

GM's are the big spenders.

I have know players to buy their own minis and dice. Generally not from TSR or WotC. Compared to the GM book buying those are incidental expenditures. But they do add up...

The goal of One VTT is to move that type of incidental spending firmly in house.

Also, please quote exactly where I said it was evil for a corp to make money?

I'll wait.

Quote from: jhkim on December 19, 2022, 02:29:56 AM
Neither microtransactions or subscriptions are inherently unscrupulous or bad. For example, most players aren't interested in buying a $40 book like Mordenkeinen's Monsters of the Multiverse, but they might be happy to pay $1 each for a few of the playable races in it. There's nothing wrong with this. Likewise, if they have a subscription service that lets players cheaply rent access to a wide range of rules rather than paying hundreds up front, that would also be good.

When it comes to microtransactions; no one is talking about buying rules.

I specifically mentioned: "...virtual mini's, dice, and no doubt other PC cosmetic enhancements that will all be available for pennies on the dollar..."

Why did you bring up the buying rules bits?

Miss Williams At 34:08 in: https://kvgo.com/ubs/hasbro-inc-webinar

Quote"...digital will allow us options to create rewarding experiences post-sale that helps us unlock the type of recurrent spending you see in digital games, where more than 70% of revenue in digital games comes post-sale. The speed of digital means that we are able to expand from what is essentially a yearly book publishing model, to a reoccurring spending environment, and we're offering content that we know fans want."

Exactly where in there when she mentions "recurrent/a reoccurring spending environment" did you get that she's just talking about selling the players mini rules chunks?

Will the GM's running games on the OneVTT not already have bought access to the rules they want for their players in the game they are running??

That's just an odd take.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 18, 2022, 04:58:14 PM
TSR did a toy line. Bust.
TSR did a cartoon. Bust.
TSR did a movie. Mega Bust.
TSR did D&D comics. Also a Bust.
TSR did novels. Good for a bit, but dwindled into a Bust.
TSR did video games. Some memorable successes; then a few bad decisions, and Bust.
Also minis, branded dice, CCG etc,... Bust, bust, bust, bust, bust.

Lets see. Both Toy lines went a good distance. The action figures got a bit further. So false there.
Cartoon made it two seasons. Which is better than most cartoons of that era ever fared. So false there.
Movies, well the second movie was well recieved. Most try to forget the third one exists. So true there.
Comics, the DC comics ran a good ways. The D&D one went like 30 odd issues. Think FR did as well. Not sure how far Dragonlance and Spelljammer got. Pretty sure Dragonlance got into the 30s. Thats better than alot of DC's sideline comics ever got. So false there.
Book. um, still plugging away. So very false. They may not be in the quantity of the Loraine era. But they are still doing em. Or at least were up to 4th ed. One of my friends penned a book for wotc round then.
Video games, theres still ones coming out and the quality is still all over the place. But when they shine they shine. So also very false.
Minis. Did pretty well for TSR then segued into wotcs deals with Wizkids and was still plugging away well into 5e. So very false there too.
Branded dice? where? If you mean Dragon Dice. Surprisingly enough it was quite a success. Problem was wotc fucked it up. As they did with other product. And Dragon Dice is still kicking. So false again.
CCG. Spellfire was another one that sold well despite its simplicity. Bloodwars was alot less so. 50/50 there.

So most of your little try was the real bust.

There is a big difference between DM's being big spenders (which I agree with) and what a bean counter *believes* without first-hand knowledge of how a product is used, could generate money for the Corporation.

This was what I was intimating above - if you're a mobile-game developer, they don't give a rats ass about how a TTRPG is played. But they do understand Brand Recognition, and since they do understand how Mobile games operate - there is *zero* reason they can't monetize the Brand Leader in *their* gamespace. They're going to pull D&D into that paradigm. They don't *care* about TTRPG's in how we engage with them.

Quote from: Omega on December 19, 2022, 08:13:37 AM
...(But, but, but, but)....

So most of your little try was the real bust.

Wow, you must have actually liked some of that stuff.

All that stuff was, and still is, an attempt to put D&D over as an Evergreen brand like Transformers, or GI Joe, Ninja turtles, etc,..

That is the lens I am evaluating and looking at them through.

Quote from: Omega on December 19, 2022, 08:13:37 AM
Lets see. Both Toy lines went a good distance. The action figures got a bit further. So false there.

I can walk into target and still buy a Transformer. D&D action figures are no where to be seen. So bust.

Quote from: Omega on December 19, 2022, 08:13:37 AM
Cartoon made it two seasons. Which is better than most cartoons of that era ever fared. So false there.

Two seasons then cancelled. That's still called a bust.

Quote from: Omega on December 19, 2022, 08:13:37 AM
Movies, well the second movie was well received. Most try to forget the third one exists. So true there.

I actually remember the sequel premiering on the Sci-Fi channel. Agreed, absolutely busted.

Quote from: Omega on December 19, 2022, 08:13:37 AM
Comics, the DC comics ran a good ways. The D&D one went like 30 odd issues. Think FR did as well. Not sure how far Dragonlance and Spelljammer got. Pretty sure Dragonlance got into the 30s. Thats better than alot of DC's sideline comics ever got. So false there.

I can go into a comic shop and find no new issues of any of that stuff. Clearly a bust.

Quote from: Omega on December 19, 2022, 08:13:37 AM
Book. um, still plugging away. So very false. They may not be in the quantity of the Loraine era. But they are still doing em. Or at least were up to 4th ed. One of my friends penned a book for wotc round then.

They were. Now they're not.

RA Salvator is still cranking out Drzzit-on-demand, and they are pushing some new DL novels that will compete with the W&H DL novels.

But that's basically it.

They had their day in the sun. Now clearly they have descended into Busted level.

Unless you really like Drizzt and DL...

Quote from: Omega on December 19, 2022, 08:13:37 AM
Video games, theres still ones coming out and the quality is still all over the place. But when they shine they shine. So also very false.

Ok let's take a look:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons_video_games

Outside of Baldurs Gate and Neverwinter Nights, you have a list of stuff no one cares about.

Where's the breakthrough warcraft/diablo franchise that has been the whole point of of this crap for over 30 years? Nowhere.

Other companies have consistently made their D&D knockoffs more popular than the official games. A Bust.

But maybe Baldurs gate 3 will turn it around...

Quote from: Omega on December 19, 2022, 08:13:37 AM
Minis. Did pretty well for TSR then segued into wotcs deals with Wizkids and was still plugging away well into 5e. So very false there too.
Branded dice? where? If you mean Dragon Dice. Surprisingly enough it was quite a success. Problem was wotc fucked it up. As they did with other product. And Dragon Dice is still kicking. So false again.

Dragon Dice was sold off and is no longer a "D&D" product. Bust.

Minis: I was referencing TSR's early efforts. In this, I was definitely out of the loop.

I looked into the Wizkids stuff, and its a lot bigger than I thought. Yes it is a license, but they are making a ton of product. And have been doing so for quite a while now.

You were right:

Wizkids pre-painted D&D minis for the WotC win. Totally not a bust.

I stand corrected on the minis.

Quote from: Omega on December 19, 2022, 08:13:37 AM
CCG. Spellfire was another one that sold well despite its simplicity. Bloodwars was alot less so. 50/50 there.

Where are these CCG now again? Still Busts.


So we readily agreed on one, and I stand corrected on the minis.

Naturally, I'm still completely right on everything else. (Is that arrogant enough?)

Still, Two out of eight is not bad for an elfgame argument on the internet.

Quote from: tenbones on December 19, 2022, 11:26:04 AM
There is a big difference between DM's being big spenders (which I agree with) and what a bean counter *believes* without first-hand knowledge of how a product is used, could generate money for the Corporation.

This was what I was intimating above - if you're a mobile-game developer, they don't give a rats ass about how a TTRPG is played. But they do understand Brand Recognition, and since they do understand how Mobile games operate - there is *zero* reason they can't monetize the Brand Leader in *their* gamespace. They're going to pull D&D into that paradigm. They don't *care* about TTRPG's in how we engage with them.

^Yes^

The will move the standard of official WotC D&D play with the One VTT to a paradigm that they know and are more comfortable with.

I think initially that it will be a big success as the DnDrones flock to the new hotness.

But after a few years we will start to see a stark divide in the hobby due to the style of play the OneVTT will create.

What will that look like? Still unclear.

But there will be a shift that could be a big opportunity for someone willing to take a risk...

I will stick up for D&D: Tower of Doom and Shadow over Mystara as being excellent and fun games.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 18, 2022, 04:58:14 PM

"...dungeon masters comprise roughly 20% of the D&D player base, they make up "the largest share of our paying players".

We must acknowledge that D&D just has a different pay to play dynamic than MtG.

For 4 people to play MtG they all have to have their own decks, and be fully conversant in the rules of the game.

MTG; four people playing = Four paying customers.

For four people to play D&D only one one person has to have a copy of the rules, and the others don't need to crack a book for the GM to tell them how to play.

D&D; four people playing = One paying customer.

This is one of those areas where I am thankful but also admittedly a bad commentator on gaming industry issues, because in the...ah... "gaming microclimate" I grew up in, this was just not common at all.

Of the gamers I know, at least 3/4ths were paying customers, probably higher. In groups I was familiar with, it was just expected that for any "long running" group/campaign, players would have at least the core book on their own, so they were able to study the rules, make characters at home, and so on. Players might join for a few sessions to see if the game interested them, but if they played more than 3-4 sessions, although it was rarely a rule, it was...  expected. And beyond this, the amount of game masters to pure players was much higher - in my "main" group, that I still play with (albeit online and infrequently) today, every single player is a game master. Maybe for a few months one person runs something, then that game finishes and I'll run something, and so on.

It wasn't until... honestly, probably post-college years that I realized that this was aparently not the norm.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 19, 2022, 02:43:32 PM
I will stick up for D&D: Tower of Doom and Shadow over Mystara as being excellent and fun games.

Yes. Absolutely. Some of the best arcade brawlers ever made, and damned faithful to the property.

As well, the older D&D video games were actually often pretty good. Not all of them, but, for example, the grid-based dungeon crawlers like Eye of the Beholder 1-3 and Dungeon Hack? Great games, for the time.

Quote from: Bruwulf on December 19, 2022, 05:03:41 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 19, 2022, 02:43:32 PM
I will stick up for D&D: Tower of Doom and Shadow over Mystara as being excellent and fun games.

Yes. Absolutely. Some of the best arcade brawlers ever made, and damned faithful to the property.

As well, the older D&D video games were actually often pretty good. Not all of them, but, for example, the grid-based dungeon crawlers like Eye of the Beholder 1-3 and Dungeon Hack? Great games, for the time.

A four-player game at one of those cabinets is one of the most satisfying and enjoyable experiences in video gaming. And the best part was, you were practically guaranteed to get it every time. Just drop a quarter in the machine and other people would show up to play with you.

The gold and silver box games SSI games were pretty iconic PC RPGs, too. They're just from an era when PC gaming was much more niche due to cost.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 19, 2022, 01:01:39 PM

but but but

Still, Two out of eight is not bad for an elfgame argument on the internet.

Ah the good ol' "nyah nyah nyah! Its not still around!" gag.

Yep. Thats real brilliant.
Name an entertainment field thats still running from its inception even 20 years later other than MTG. Which is gradually faltering.
Cartoons rarely last a year, few last 5, and hardly any last past that. 
D&D has had PC and console games coming out about every other year. AOL Neverwinter was the first graphical MMO out there and would likely still be kicking if AOL had not folded their MMO department. D&D has had probably the most ports of any venue out there aside from maybe some sports games.
Toys. WOTC has for whatever reason hardly ever produced actual toys. Theres been a rare few figures I think. But they seem to mostly just market someone elses toys. Duelmasters? Thats the only one I ever saw.
Wotc till recently, and possible still cant, has been stonewalled by Solomon and could not produce any D&D movies or cartoons. They tried an end-run with Dragonlance and that was sub par. The only cartoon they have ever produced far as I know is for a Duelmaster reboot.

and so on.

Try again please.

Quote from: Corolinth on December 20, 2022, 06:34:29 PM

Quote from: Bruwulf on December 19, 2022, 05:03:41 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 19, 2022, 02:43:32 PM
I will stick up for D&D: Tower of Doom and Shadow over Mystara as being excellent and fun games.

Yes. Absolutely. Some of the best arcade brawlers ever made, and damned faithful to the property.

As well, the older D&D video games were actually often pretty good. Not all of them, but, for example, the grid-based dungeon crawlers like Eye of the Beholder 1-3 and Dungeon Hack? Great games, for the time.

A four-player game at one of those cabinets is one of the most satisfying and enjoyable experiences in video gaming. And the best part was, you were practically guaranteed to get it every time. Just drop a quarter in the machine and other people would show up to play with you.

The gold and silver box games SSI games were pretty iconic PC RPGs, too. They're just from an era when PC gaming was much more niche due to cost.

I know you can grab a combo pack (both Tower of Doom and Shadow over Mystara) off Steam for fifteen bucks. Comes with online functionality and art extras. Good times.

Wonder if they've ported some of those SSI games? I'll have to check. I know Wizardry 6-8 got a port.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 19, 2022, 01:01:39 PM

Quote from: Omega on December 19, 2022, 08:13:37 AM
Comics, the DC comics ran a good ways. The D&D one went like 30 odd issues. Think FR did as well. Not sure how far Dragonlance and Spelljammer got. Pretty sure Dragonlance got into the 30s. Thats better than alot of DC's sideline comics ever got. So false there.

I can go into a comic shop and find no new issues of any of that stuff. Clearly a bust.

No, but you can go into a comic shop and get Vox Machina comics by Dark Horse.  That's Critical Roll which is basically the D&D brand.

There was a 4 issue Ravenloft miniseries released by IDW between July and October this year.  They also released a 4 issue Icewind Dale story back in late 2020/early 2021 and a Baldur's Gate 5 issue series in late 2021.

There were also Rick and Morty/D&D and Stranger Things/D&D crossover series recently.

So, while not a continuous ongoing series (which isn't really how the industry rolls these days anyway), the past couple years hasn't been exactly lacking in D&D comics.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 21, 2022, 08:14:40 AM
Wonder if they've ported some of those SSI games? I'll have to check. I know Wizardry 6-8 got a port.

  I think you can find all the SSI games at gog.com.

This is such a fascinating thing.

I'm no prognosticator but here's what I think might happen.

Lets assume that the micro transaction thing on DnD Beyond is where WotC is going. They're hoping to either A) create the type of "player" that will spend money on the little things or B) they are assuming that type of player already exists and is willing to spend the money.

We know the recession is here. Inflation has made groceries and rent and utilities a priority. We're not in the pandemic/lockdown. I don't think the typical 'player' is going to spend the money. Oh, sure you'll have the diehards that will. There's just so many variables, like people with disposable income, like me who have left WotC for good.....I ain't doing it. I'm not blind enough to believe that only people my age have disposable income but players have forever been known to leech of their DM's.....it won't change.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

What IS going to happen is WotC's OneD&D is going to be a fundamentally different experience than what *we* traditionally think of as TTRPG's and how we engage in them.

They're banking on younger folks who are *already* conditioned to engage with gaming on this surface-level where the games are designed to be grazed upon and monetized to be consumed endlessly. There are already games out there that do this - Gloomhaven comes to mind. WotC's new leadership is counting on Brand Loyalty(tm) to pull those that already play videogames but don't play D&D necessarily, as well as Brand Loyalists into Mobile-gaming hybrid play (if they're not already in that group) and ply them with the latest and greatest psyops to become better consumers of the brand.

And they're going to do this with the minimal investment in making the game fun at the maximal point of design investment. Wherever that Lawn Dart of Hope lands, that's where they will live or die.

And for those of us that want the TTRPG experience? Well the good news is: WE'RE ALREADY HERE. The Bad News is - we likely won't be playing OneD&D. The Better News is: That's okay because most of us have already stopped playing 5e. The UGLY News is - it's on us to capture those that will seek TTRPG's as a distinct experience from OneD&D. D&D will, hopefully, become disassociated from being *the RPG* that everyone thinks of when people talk about TTRPG's in general. It'll take a long time, but this is a good step in that direction.

But to me - that's all good news. Have you Heard The Good News(tm)? Happy Solstice!

Quote from: tenbones on December 21, 2022, 11:02:26 AM
What IS going to happen is WotC's OneD&D is going to be a fundamentally different experience than what *we* traditionally think of as TTRPG's and how we engage in them.

They're banking on younger folks who are *already* conditioned to engage with gaming on this surface-level where the games are designed to be grazed upon and monetized to be consumed endlessly. There are already games out there that do this - Gloomhaven comes to mind. WotC's new leadership is counting on Brand Loyalty(tm) to pull those that already play videogames but don't play D&D necessarily, as well as Brand Loyalists into Mobile-gaming hybrid play (if they're not already in that group) and ply them with the latest and greatest psyops to become better consumers of the brand.

And they're going to do this with the minimal investment in making the game fun at the maximal point of design investment. Wherever that Lawn Dart of Hope lands, that's where they will live or die.

And for those of us that want the TTRPG experience? Well the good news is: WE'RE ALREADY HERE. The Bad News is - we likely won't be playing OneD&D. The Better News is: That's okay because most of us have already stopped playing 5e. The UGLY News is - it's on us to capture those that will seek TTRPG's as a distinct experience from OneD&D. D&D will, hopefully, become disassociated from being *the RPG* that everyone thinks of when people talk about TTRPG's in general. It'll take a long time, but this is a good step in that direction.

But to me - that's all good news. Have you Heard The Good News(tm)? Happy Solstice!

Well said, tenbones. I wasn't sure how to put that down and you definitely did succinctly.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on December 21, 2022, 11:49:58 AM

Quote from: tenbones on December 21, 2022, 11:02:26 AM
What IS going to happen is WotC's OneD&D is going to be a fundamentally different experience than what *we* traditionally think of as TTRPG's and how we engage in them.

They're banking on younger folks who are *already* conditioned to engage with gaming on this surface-level where the games are designed to be grazed upon and monetized to be consumed endlessly. There are already games out there that do this - Gloomhaven comes to mind. WotC's new leadership is counting on Brand Loyalty(tm) to pull those that already play videogames but don't play D&D necessarily, as well as Brand Loyalists into Mobile-gaming hybrid play (if they're not already in that group) and ply them with the latest and greatest psyops to become better consumers of the brand.

And they're going to do this with the minimal investment in making the game fun at the maximal point of design investment. Wherever that Lawn Dart of Hope lands, that's where they will live or die.

And for those of us that want the TTRPG experience? Well the good news is: WE'RE ALREADY HERE. The Bad News is - we likely won't be playing OneD&D. The Better News is: That's okay because most of us have already stopped playing 5e. The UGLY News is - it's on us to capture those that will seek TTRPG's as a distinct experience from OneD&D. D&D will, hopefully, become disassociated from being *the RPG* that everyone thinks of when people talk about TTRPG's in general. It'll take a long time, but this is a good step in that direction.

But to me - that's all good news. Have you Heard The Good News(tm)? Happy Solstice!

Well said, tenbones. I wasn't sure how to put that down and you definitely did succinctly.

Agreed.  I think there was is one more step in that sequence, admittedly speculative. My experience is that mind-numbing activities go one of two ways depending on the individual and the specific activity:  They either turn it into a habit, and eventually have no real stake in it other than the habit, or they get tired of it and stop. 

If so, then what we get out of this whole process is a lot of drones and a fair number of people who gradually, eventually rebel against the shallowness.  To the extent that there is real RPGs happening elsewhere, outside the D&D umbrella, some of those latter people will be interested.  Note, in some cases, it will take a decade or more for it to play out.

Happily, for us, the answer is the same whether I'm correct in that speculation or not.  Keep running real tabletop RPGs, let the chips fall where they may.  Just be open to younger individuals as individuals, joining in, because some of them will be receptive.

Quote from: Omega on December 21, 2022, 07:22:08 AM
...That's real brilliant.

Modesty compels me to say that you don't have to tell me how brilliant I am.

From now on we can just assume it.

Quote from: Omega on December 21, 2022, 07:22:08 AM
...
Cartoons rarely last a year, few last 5, and hardly any last past that.
D&D has had PC and console games coming out about every other year. AOL Neverwinter was the first graphical MMO out there and would likely still be kicking if AOL had not folded their MMO department. D&D has had probably the most ports of any venue out there aside from maybe some sports games.
Toys. WOTC has for whatever reason hardly ever produced actual toys. Theres been a rare few figures I think. But they seem to mostly just market someone elses toys. Duelmasters? Thats the only one I ever saw.
Wotc till recently, and possible still cant, has been stonewalled by Solomon and could not produce any D&D movies or cartoons. They tried an end-run with Dragonlance and that was sub par. The only cartoon they have ever produced far as I know is for a Duelmaster reboot.
....

I can't fault TSR and WotC for trying.

But if they were successful as they wanted; WotC wouldn't still be trying to get all the tv, film ,movies, toys, etc,... off the ground, again.

If they were; the cartoon would be on its umpteenth reboot, selling "classic" edition toys, and having fans whine about the quality of the prequel films etc,...

Quote from: Omega on December 21, 2022, 07:22:08 AM
Name an entertainment field thats still running from its inception even 20 years later other than MTG. ...

Irrelevant.

I am judging these efforts solely based on what TSR/WotC's goal has always been for the brand:

TSR and now WotC's goal has always been an attempt to put D&D over as an evergreen IP for normies;Like Transformers, or GI Joe, Ninja turtles, etc,...[/i]

That is the lens I am exclusively evaluating all this through.

Quote from: rgalex on December 21, 2022, 10:21:00 AM
No, but you can go into a comic shop and get Vox Machina comics by Dark Horse.  That's Critical Roll which is basically the D&D brand.

Another case for the D&D knock-off going farther than the official product.

If WotC was smart they would have let them use the D&D branding. But no.

Quote from: rgalex on December 21, 2022, 10:21:00 AM
There was a 4 issue Ravenloft miniseries released by IDW between July and October this year.  They also released a 4 issue Icewind Dale story back in late 2020/early 2021 and a Baldur's Gate 5 issue series in late 2021.

There were also Rick and Morty/D&D and Stranger Things/D&D crossover series recently.

So, while not a continuous ongoing series (which isn't really how the industry rolls these days anyway), the past couple years hasn't been exactly lacking in D&D comics.

Limited runs are still not the evergreen IP that they have bee trying to put over on the normies since the early 80's.

13 comics over the past three years is not a success story by that metric.

And that is the only metric I am measuring all this against.

Quote from: tenbones on December 21, 2022, 11:02:26 AM
What IS going to happen is WotC's OneD&D is going to be a fundamentally different experience than what *we* traditionally think of as TTRPG's and how we engage in them.
...
WotC's new leadership is counting on Brand Loyalty(tm) to pull those that already play videogames but don't play D&D necessarily, as well as Brand Loyalists into Mobile-gaming hybrid play (if they're not already in that group) and ply them with the latest and greatest psyops to become better consumers of the brand.

The WotC suit holy grail.

The problem that they have always have is that D&D the RPG has a different play dynamic from other media like Video games, MtG, and the crossover is never what they hope it will be.

But that little detail doesn't seem to keep them from trying...

Quote from: tenbones on December 21, 2022, 11:02:26 AM
...
And for those of us that want the TTRPG experience? Well the good news is: WE'RE ALREADY HERE. The Bad News is - we likely won't be playing OneD&D. The Better News is: That's okay because most of us have already stopped playing 5e. The UGLY News is - it's on us to capture those that will seek TTRPG's as a distinct experience from OneD&D. D&D will, hopefully, become disassociated from being *the RPG* that everyone thinks of when people talk about TTRPG's in general. It'll take a long time, but this is a good step in that direction.
...

Our holy grail.

To paraphrase from that seminal Christmas film, Die Hard:

"You asked for a miracle?"

"I give you the WotC OneVTT..."

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 21, 2022, 10:22:19 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 21, 2022, 08:14:40 AM
Wonder if they've ported some of those SSI games? I'll have to check. I know Wizardry 6-8 got a port.

I think you can find all the SSI games at gog.com.

Confirmed - Forgotten Realms Collection volume 2, specifically. Eye of the Beholder is volume 1, and Dungeon Hack is in volume 3. I didn't look for the silver box Dragonlance games.

Quote from: tenbones on December 21, 2022, 11:02:26 AM
...D&D will, hopefully, become disassociated from being *the RPG* that everyone thinks of when people talk about TTRPG's in general. It'll take a long time, but this is a good step in that direction.

I wouldn't get my hopes up. If it hasn't happened after fifty years, it's probably not going to. At this point, D&D is so heavily entrenched in the public conscience because the people who are running things grew up with it.

While others are debating whether or not D&D-related media from the 80s and 90s was successful, how many people do you think watched that cartoon, read those comics and novels, played those video games, or watched those movies? Those people would be in their 30s and 40s today.