Quote from: Doom;815840I generally don't have monsters strike at downed characters, but in a world where every other adventurer has healing powers, and where even the slightest power can make a near death charater hop up and start swinging with full force, intelligent monsters should totally swing at downed characters.

At the same time why would a monster attack an opponent that is down and seemingly out of the fight. When there are other opponents trying to crush their skull with a mace? Just a thought.

Quote from: Ronin;815875At the same time why would a monster attack an opponent that is down and seemingly out of the fight. When there are other opponents trying to crush their skull with a mace? Just a thought.

Because they're intelligent and that's what the players tend to do when faced with a monster that is likely to get up, like a regenerating troll? Using player tactics against player characters is nasty, and I avoid it for most NPCs, but the elite bodyguard of a powerful villain are going to be ruthless and effective. It's possible for ordinary NPCs with an opponent who was hard to take down and dealt a lot of damage; there's a chance of beating on the supposedly dead body and a chance of wasting an action on a victory dance.

Concentration of fire is an inevitable problem with a hit point system, especially where the hit points reach high totals, like in D&D. If you meet a wizard with three zombies, everyone who can attacks the wizard first; if you meet four perfectly identical wizards, you assume it's a mirror image spell and spread your attacks evenly. Those seem reasonable given typical character knowledge; but four melee opponents in general: concentrate fire if you think they have lots of hit points and average AC, and spread fire if you think they have one hit point each and very high AC (two hits on the same target being wasted). My solution is to expect reasonable roleplaying from the players, to give opponents some kind of compensating bonuses when the players go too far toward unrealistically exploiting the rules, and to play the NPCs as an example of what I expect.

Quote from: Ronin;815875At the same time why would a monster attack an opponent that is down and seemingly out of the fight. When there are other opponents trying to crush their skull with a mace? Just a thought.

Because those downed adventurers are supernatural and will rise up to fight anew if you dont make sure! Either wack em twice more to be sure. Or make sure none of their friends get near for a few rounds.

Which is the other tactic if possible. Prevent helpers from assisting the fallen. But if it looks like theres a good chance the downed PC IS going to get help and be back fighing ASAP then you might want to waste a round making sure they dont. Especially if it was their strongest member.

Seems to me to be some over thinking the motives and thoughts of an orc in the heat of battle, fighting some random guy they have never encountered before. But I can see what your saying.

Depends on the orc. Cowardly, quarrelsome rabble? If they knock someone down, they might start looting the body while the fight is still going and run away if they find anything good. Veteran orc champion? Probably knows what opponents are possible and what strategies are effective. I overthink them ahead of time because it's hard to switch gears among a variety of NPCs and I can't always convert a background description into appropriate tactics quickly enough. And it's easier to weather the player complaints if I've set down in my own notes for each unusual opponent the circumstances in which its most vicious tactics would be used.

Quote from: Ronin;815875At the same time why would a monster attack an opponent that is down and seemingly out of the fight. When there are other opponents trying to crush their skull with a mace? Just a thought.

Because the guy that's down can get right back up again in a heartbeat, so it's MUCH easier to hit him when he's down, than let him get back up and have one more difficult-to-hurt opponent trying to skullcrush?

I can see fungi, zombies, and rocks ignoring a downed foe, but in a world where enemies that aren't dead can pop right back up, it'd be pretty common tactics.

You've got to let the game rules affect the world, or else the game world will stop making sense.

Personally I rarely have a opponent do a kill unless they either have a vendetta against a PC. Or they see or know the PCs are doing it alot. Return the favour.

And I point out to players that if they are slitting throats of slept opponents then that could happen to them in return. You set the tone. Not me. Now live, and die, with it.

Otherwise opponents tend to loot and run if they win. Or move on to new targets if there are adventurers still standing.

Perhaps a carry-over from the past 15 years is the desire for fights and other dangerous encounters to be 'balanced' as individual set pieces (as opposed to being subject to the vagaries of cumulative attrition, plus varying party composition).

So, in the TSR-era version, more resources basically let you plow through more stuff before you're down to the chance of a one-hit kill. That doesn't work so well if you're not getting worn down along the way, in which case the Nigh-Invulnerable --> Nigh-Doomed spectrum is covered in a single fight or not at all.

Making it thus more of a continuous possibility - more like RuneQuest, in a way - calls for making it a very low per-fight probability if there's to be long-term character development in a combat-heavy game.

Exacerbating this is a tendency for players to turn every conflict into a contest of total extermination, so that defeat = tpk. WotC is probably more inclined to cater to this (and the scenario model that is most popular) as a baseline assumption than to do so for the old D&D style of game.

Part of me wants to blame later PC games and MMOs where you die and are right back at it. And often no chance to negotiate or talk. Especially in MMOs. Leading to newer players just throwing themselves at everything because thats all theyve known and thats what was presented as an "RPG".

But that all or nothing attitude has been around since OD&D.

I think 5e presents alot of ways a DM can play it. Totally leathal, or not very dangerous in the normal sense. Threats of all manner and not just the kill you dead sort.

Quote from: Ronin;815885Seems to me to be some over thinking the motives and thoughts of an orc in the heat of battle, fighting some random guy they have never encountered before. But I can see what your saying.

Intelligent monsters should fight intelligently.

Quote from: jeff37923;815907Intelligent monsters should fight intelligently.

That would be instantly surrendering or running away from the band of nutcases who keep wiping out everything thrown at them right?

Quote from: Omega;815911That would be instantly surrendering or running away from the band of nutcases who keep wiping out everything thrown at them right?

Of course not. That means working together in overwhelming numbers, being subtle, etc. Like stealing a wizard's spellbook while they are resting and focusing fire upon the cleric first in combat.

That said, I don't run a world where there's only manageable threats according to party size. If you stumble upon the ugly prematurely, you should run. If you survive, be aware that they too are aware of you now.

A thinking opponent is horrifying. But it is also way more fun. That's why we all get eventually bored from CPU battles and seek out human competition. Why would I deprive my PCs from that sort of opportunity?

Quote from: Omega;815911That would be instantly surrendering or running away from the band of nutcases who keep wiping out everything thrown at them right?

Or making sure that the nutcase who has been fighting you and is now down, must be ensured to stay down permanently.

Quote from: Omega;815911That would be instantly surrendering or running away from the band of nutcases who keep wiping out everything thrown at them right?

Again, it depends on the game world.

Suppose you're in a typical D&D world, where there are definitely gods, and there is definitely an afterlife, and an outer planes.

If Gruumsh punishes orcs that run away, and such punishment is not a matter of pure faith but simply a fact of reality, then you're not going to have many orcs that simply run, even against apparently overpowering enemies. I mean, it can happen...but it's not as sure a thing as it would be in the "real" world.

Quote from: jeff37923;815925Or making sure that the nutcase who has been fighting you and is now down, must be ensured to stay down permanently.

That was preferable in AD&D. You got 1000 exp for getting offed and raised. :eek: