I'm creating a big (6-8 level) dungeon as the centrepiece to an upcoming campaign, and I'm considering locating it under a ruined city that has recently become re-occupied by pillagers, outlaws, and other unsavoury types. So I've been looking around for other examples of this dungeon location. And I don't mean a few buildings over the dungeon location (like the Dark Tower), but a living city.

I remember some of the earliest issues of the Strategic Review and Dragon magazine talked about building castles or cities above your dungeon, as a way to broaden the game and give access to merchants, guilds, etc. And yet it seems that model quickly fell to the wayside. Yes, we have have couple prominent examples - Castle Greyhawk and Undermountain come to mind. I'm having trouble coming up with others, though.  

Can anyone else name some examples? And if anyone has run campaigns centred on big dungeons under cities, can they share their experiences - good and bad?

Big Rubble (Gloranthan runequest) is more or less like this. There is no equivalent of the multi-level megadungeon in any version of Runequest I've encountered, but the notion of a ruined city as your big, open-plan first level, with other stuff underneath is definitely what this place is about. I really like it.

I'd forgotten about Big Rubble (I used to have the Pavis/Big Rubble book). Yes, that's very close to what I'm looking at - a functioning city with a large, ruined section, and dungeons underneath.

Pros:

Makes for some roleplaying opportunities - delvers guilds, permits to enter the ruins (bribery), patrons for retrieving artifacts, rival factions, etc.

Lots of interesting and plausible geographical features - sewers under city, secret connections between city buildings (palaces, dungeons, crypts) and under-dungeon, rubble inhabited by monsters and outlaws, etc.

Don't have to worry about overland travel if you're not interested in that.

Cons:

Need to justify why dungeon isn't looted yet.

No overland travel, if you enjoy that.

Could be a pain to map a dungeon at such a scale

?

Quote from: Haffrung;875377Need to justify why dungeon isn't looted yet.

Create a loose history of how it came to be and what happens to it and then set the campaign at the point in time when it would make sense that it would still have treasure to be looted.

I am not too familiar with traditional D&D dungeons, but the Catacombs underneath Paris are a great starting point for inspiration. They're vast, confusing and most has been left untouched (even by urban spelunkers). Google the Crypt of the Sepulchral Lamp for a good example of creepy underground ossuarial chambers. There are also a lot of great articles and maps online you could crib.

The movie As Above, So Below is a great reference point to see how to use under-city tunnels as a focus for claustrophobia, environmental hazards and spooktacular challenges.

Haffrung, that's the premise of the Tunnels and Trolls solo adventure called Naked Doom.

The blurb:

"They caught you ... and now you must go on a forced march through the Royal Khazan Gauntlet of Criminal Retribution and Rehabilitation.

Khazan does not believe in coddling criminals, and now you must run the Royal Khazan Gauntlet of Criminal Retribution and Rehabilitation. You are taken into the catacombs, beneath the Khazan Courthouse, and stripped of all clothing, jewelry, weapons, amulets, and other devices. If you can make your way through the series of tunnels and caves that lie ahead, you will escape with your life - and if you're lucky, treasure! For a warrior, levels 1-2."

The link:  http://www.tunnelsandtrolls.com/soloadventures/le_depouillement_dernier.shtml

Quote from: Haffrung;875377I'd forgotten about Big Rubble (I used to have the Pavis/Big Rubble book). Yes, that's very close to what I'm looking at - a functioning city with a large, ruined section, and dungeons underneath.

Pros:

Makes for some roleplaying opportunities - delvers guilds, permits to enter the ruins (bribery), patrons for retrieving artifacts, rival factions, etc.

Lots of interesting and plausible geographical features - sewers under city, secret connections between city buildings (palaces, dungeons, crypts) and under-dungeon, rubble inhabited by monsters and outlaws, etc.

Don't have to worry about overland travel if you're not interested in that.

Cons:

Need to justify why dungeon isn't looted yet.

No overland travel, if you enjoy that.

Could be a pain to map a dungeon at such a scale

?

A  couple of years back I ran a post apocalypse game with dungeons under the main city.

The upper levels were mostly looted and filled up with monsters over time, so the city guard basically kept things locked up -- and periodically went in "in force" to clear things out.

The catacombs were also used by theives and secret societies and people who wanted to move around without being noticed... and there were accesses to otherwise secure buildings.

I used a random dungeon generator to create a truly enormous map.

It wasn't the main dungeon the PCs were interested in (they went in a couple of times), but it worked well as background color.

Cheers,
-E.

City State of the Invincible Overlord has a dungeon under it... several dungeons IIRC. Accretions of ruins left by former inhabitants, factional delving, smugglers and invaders.

The old Judges Guild City-State of the Invincible Overlord had a slightly obscure product associated with it called "Wraith Overlord." It was the sewers and dungeons below the CSIO and might be similar to what you are looking to find, since characters could move freely between the city proper and the underground regions.

From literature I'm pretty sure both Conan and John Carter explored various ruined tunnels and "the pits" below cities, although in "Red Nais' Conan explores something like this which is above ground. Ged of Earthsea has some adventures in some tunnels much the same. Not sure if any of this helps you much, but it might provide some inspiration.



EDIT: Simlasa scooped me on the CSIO reference.

Middenheim in WFRP is built on a plateau with an abandoned Dwarven city honeycombing it. Back in 1st Edition it was described in general terms in Warhammer City, the Middenheim sourcebook. There was no detailed map or anything. The city of Middenheim itself was very well detailed. One of my favorite RPG settings at the time, so it is no surprise that GW destroyed it for 2nd Edition.

I second looking at the catacombs of Paris. Probably lots you could with that.

Neil Gaiman's book Neverwhere is mostly about an underground civilization beneath London. Even has magic in it.

Similarly you could go the route of the TV show Beauty and the Beast and have a communal group living in the tunnels beneath New York City as inspiration.

The AD&D module I1: Dwellers of the Forbidden City had a great map of a ruined city and ideas of what lurks beneath.

I remember when Top Secret first came out it had an introductory adventure called something like Sprechenhaltestal which featured a section of a city and all the underground dens of sin beneath it. Might be worth a look.

I used to have Wraith Overlord - another one I had forgotten.

I also have the Middenheim book, but I haven't looked at the section on the dwarf undervaults closely.

My premise is that the ruins are located on the far side of an ancient and huge wall separating the civilized world from the Elder Wilds, and explorers and exiles from the civilized side have only recently ventured beyond the wall. The ruined city will be a kind of frontier town for treasure-seekers, looters, and bandits.

I suppose the trick will be establishing some sort of equilibrium so the rival treasure-seekers aren't so strong or numerous that they simply overwhelm the dungeon, or strip any successful party of all their treasure. I'm thinking perhaps some petty lord exerts enough power that delves must be authorized, and are auctioned off (or drawn by lots) to keep numbers down.

If the dungeon is organized in the traditional way with increasing danger and treasure as you get deeper, one would wonder why the easy levels haven't been thoroughly looted by higher level treasure hunters. But that seems a question to ask of every such dungeon, whether it's under a city or not.

The city won't be there long if monsters constantly crawl out to prey upon the inhabitants. Presumably the city militia has sealed most entries and responds to new ones appearing; delving opportunities involve opening up a new unplundered area that isn't too dangerous, or getting official sanction (or breaking in) to go into more dangerous sealed areas.

I didn't see any mention of it in the thread; wasn't Blackmoor an example of this?

Earthdawn has Parlainth/Haven... reminiscent of Big Rubble/Pavis. Parlainth is a huge city that fell during Earthdawn's apocalyptic 'scourge' and Haven is the town that has grown up around the business of exploring and looting it. There are above ground portions as well as layers underneath. Some very powerful/scary characters visit there or make their homes nearby.

I usually have some sort of above ground structure with the "dungeon" underneath.

That could be a castle with a real dungeon complex. Or it could be a bunker or earthwork over an underground base. An trade outpost over mines. A graveyard over tombs. Standing stones over caverns. and so on.

In a city the "dungeon" could be accessways like the romans had for moving personell. They could be secret passages made and used by thieves guilds or wererats, They could be the end of tunnelling up from below. Sepulchers under the graveyard. and so on.

As for why they havent been looted. Could be they were sealed off long ago and forgotten. Could be someone has been working to keep them a secret. Cuould be the upper levels have been looted. But deeper down is a different story. Could be that the section was only recently discovered by digging. and so on.