Fuck me! I'd just tell him to play by the rules!

well, there is always that, yes.

or pseudo's solution

Quote from: Cerulean LionHeh.
I was mocking the idea that Rage was equal to Bearshape. Of course Bearshape is much more powerful, especially if gained at first level.
I guess I chose the wrong emoticon, since my meaning wasn't clear.  Sorry.

Gah.  My fault.  My emoticon-fu is not what it should be.  Let me try one:

Pete

Quote from: pspahnI'm not a fan of taking away player control, but I don't feel that characters should receive potentially unbalancing abilities without there being some drawbacks. What if he wanted a +5 sword at first level?  Would he just get one?  That doesn't seem fair to me--unless the whole party receives some sort of item or ability as equally powerful, but by the tone, I'm guessing the GM is not running a high-powered 1st level campaign.  Including a drawback (like becoming an NPC) levels everything out again. And if the player truly just "likes to be a bear sometimes" he shouldn't have a problem with this.  

I agree completely that unbalanced power is a bad idea. I just think that "you're an NPC now" is an exceptionally crappy balancing tool.

QuoteAnd yes, the GM can work around this by changing tactics, etc., but that's the GM's choice to make.  If he's uncomfortable with what he feels is someone trying to be shady with the rules, he should be able to decide what is and what isn't allowed in his game.  If you don;t agree with his decision, that's up to you, but there's nothing stopping from making another character.  

I agree with the GM's decision. It's your decision I disagree with.

QuoteJust to be clear, we do all agree that the GM has the final say when it comes to what is allowed in his campaign, right?

Definitely. I don't think that was ever in doubt. Was it?

Quote from: pspahnI don;t know Rage (I play d20 Modern but not D&D anymore), but is it really equal to the +16 Grappling bonus and +11 melee/claw bonus along with the Improved Grab ability that a bear gets?  This seems way overpowered for 1st level.  

Pete

Well, let's the dissect the bear to see exactly what goes into that ursine engine of destruction.

(Metaphorically, of course; I wouldn't want the SPCA throwing a fit.)

The bear's large attack bonus is a result of its strength and hit dice. A normal brown bear has six animal hit dice...and twenty-seven strength. Now, what exactly do we want to give alongside a change into Bear form? While giving the character more hit dice isn't necessary, the size and strength benefits probably would be...and before we deal with the former, the latter's pretty overwhelming.

At higher levels, this could be pretty easily balanced out by denying the character any sort of magical equipment bonuses; minus druid spells as well, and that would slot in nicely. However, in this case, we're dealing with a low level character.

Now, rage is a useful, fairly versatile ability; it's the barbarian's bread and butter, in fact. But even if we make the Bear shape uncontrolled, it does what rage already does but better; gives a massive boost to close combat (even before we look at grappling), in return for a reduction in tactical choices. (A raging barbarian can't use complex maneuvers, NPC bear can't really do anything.) So, I think that's a bad way to go about it (on the record, I'm with  James McMurry in thinking that "You're an NPC" is a bad balancing mechanism.)

Now, just turning into a bear for Improved Grab, claw and bite damage isn't quite as powerful. The size is still a huge bonus...but with no equipment modifiers or options, it's not that overpowering. For first level, though, it'll probably be enough to waltz through many encounters, so removing the stat changes still doesn't really solve the problem the entire way (it also feels a bit weak as a solution; if the bear's that big, why isn't it that strong.)

However, if it's sheer bearness the player wants, I can see one fairly simple option; at low levels, he's transformed into a cub, rather than a full grown bear. Then, it's simply a matter of balancing the cub bonuses and penalties versus the (considerably more versatile) rage benefits. If we start with a medium sized cub with either no strength modification (or one that's modest, like a set score of fifteen) at medium size with no hit die bonus, it shouldn't be too hard to balance that against "has hands, can do non-bearish things in combat."

Ultimately, that last one's probably the solution I used, if the player was cool with it.

This works fine if I start as Bear-Mowgli. Hrothgar, battle-scarred bearserker of the beary Bear tribe transforming into a cute cub? Nay!

Quote from: James McMurrayI agree with the GM's decision. It's your decision I disagree with.

Ha!  

QuoteDefinitely. I don't think that was ever in doubt. Was it?

Well, I was speaking from a GM's point of view and it seemed like there was a lot of disagreement with what a GM could rule (Cerulean Lion mentioned laughing in the GM's face) so I was just checking to make sure.  

Quote from: SosthenesThis works fine if I start as Bear-Mowgli. Hrothgar, battle-scarred bearserker of the beary Bear tribe transforming into a cute cub? Nay!

Pete

Face-laughing and GM Power aren't incompatible. Face-Laughing, and the walk-out that sometimes follows, are just the players' way of saying "that decision is so wrong I can't stomach staying in this game anymore."

Quote from: James McMurrayFace-laughing and GM Power aren't incompatible. Face-Laughing, and the walk-out that sometimes follows, are just the players' way of saying "that decision is so wrong I can't stomach staying in this game anymore."

Rather than just making a new character?  That seems a bit extreme.

EDIT:  And that's basically what I'm talking about.  Remember, I'm giving a sample drawback to a power before the character is created, so the player knows what he's getting into and if he doesn't like it he can come up with a new character concept. By walking out you're essentially saying the GM doesn't have a right to tell you what kind of character you can make for his campaign.  Or "give me what I want or I take my ball and go home."  Now, if the GM allowed the bearshape power and then suddenly dumped NPC status on the character because he didn't like the way the power was being used, I wouldn;t agree with that.

Quote from: James McMurrayI agree completely that unbalanced power is a bad idea. I just think that "you're an NPC now" is an exceptionally crappy balancing tool.

That's exactly what I'm thinking. Of course, if he can gamble for control, and the DM doesn't control it, then I feel it's different. Then, if he wants to become a bear, and he can take steps to control it, then it's a calculated risk; something to be done when the big guns need to come out and he really needs it. By the time he can control it fully, in the scenerio I presented, it wouldn't be quite as broken.

Go ahead and layer, like, Black Bear, Brown Bear, and Dire Bear progressions with higher checks for each one.

For Concentration, if you don't make it a class skill, then you have to pay more (it's true) but you can't break the level/2 cap that a cross class skill nets for you. I think that's too hard on a Barbarians already fairly low skills per level.

If I absolutely had to use the NPC/PC balance mechanism I'd probably use the Control Shape rules for lycanthropes.

Quote from: Thanatos02For Concentration, if you don't make it a class skill, then you have to pay more (it's true) but you can't break the level/2 cap that a cross class skill nets for you. I think that's too hard on a Barbarians already fairly low skills per level.

but isn't this the point, making it difficult to pull off?  i mean, we're all in agreement that without a serious amount of houseruling this whole bear thing is unbalanced.  

so far, LeSquide's bear age/size thing seems the most balanced.

but i still like pseudo's, too.  unbalanced?  not for long. . . .

Yeah, bears are mechanically powerful, but not really that difficult to defeat if you play the adversaries in a sensible way. Sure, if you put them in tight confines where the bear's advantages are played to (level ground, nowhere to flee) then the bear will dominate. If you put them in a situation where they have the advantage, then the bear is screwed.

Bears have: No way of resisting magic, no ranged attacks, no special movement modes.

Some dudes standing on a roof with bows will be able to toast him. He won't be able to do crap.

Yes, but the same's true for barbarians, so this really is no argument here. Do bears destroy the game? Certainly not. Are they out of balance compared with a normal barbarian? I'd definitely say so.

I am late to this thread, but couldn't you have just let the guy have a bear shape, but just use his raged stats? Cheesy, but if the player truly had no ulterior motives, this would be a very easy solution.