First problem I see: he's not going to be less powerful in combat as a bear. Bears get multiple attacks, high strength, and will later get improved grab. Bears are beefy.

Second problem: It sounds to me like he wants his limited wild shape starting at 1st level. Do you by any chance know if he's a dope smoker?

Third problem: He mentions animal steps when he gains levels. It sounds to me like he would want to be able to go Large at 4th level when he gets a 2nd rage. Then jump to huge at 8th (probably arguing that the steps for tiny and plant shapes make no sense for the character so he should skip them completely).

Would he be happy with changing the flavor text on rage so that he's not getting angry? Tell him instead of Rage he has Totemic Avatar. Same combat boosts as rage, same duration, same everything except he takes on bear-like qualities instead of frothing at the mouth.

If he's truly less concerned about combat effectiveness and just wants flavor for the character, he'll be happy to take WotC's bear totem barbarian variant from the SRD. It gives up such wonderful things as fast movement, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge. In return it gets +3 hit points, +4 to grapples, and +2 to fortitude saves. Eventually it gets another +4 to grapples when raging.

Another alternative is WotC's crafty hunter variant, which gives up rage features in place of favored enemy and archery.

It looks to me like he's latched onto one of the most powerful customization options he could find and ignored some flavorful, but less combat worthy, styles in the same book. That he then says he's losing combat effectiveness is suspect.

Also, feel free to tell him that yes, wild shape is indeed more powerful than rage. If he doesn't believe you he can post the question to the uber munchkins over at the WotC forum's character optimization boards.

Quote from: TonyLBHis rules-lawyery phrasing is sending up all manner of red flags for me.

Me too. In all the wrong ways, which is a shame because he's normally the absolute opposite of a rules lawyer. But the last time we played D&D, and now this time he's been atrocious.

QuoteWhat were the two options you offered him that both included Rage?

Actually I didn't-I offered him the Bear Warrior Prestige class, or the Druidic Avenger option above.

Quote from: James McMurrayFirst problem I see: he's not going to be less powerful in combat as a bear. Bears get multiple attacks, high strength, and will later get improved grab. Bears are beefy.

Yeah that's my biggest problem at the start-he gets a lot of juice with little in the way of trade off.

QuoteSecond problem: It sounds to me like he wants his limited wild shape starting at 1st level. Do you by any chance know if he's a dope smoker?

Heh.

QuoteThird problem: He mentions animal steps when he gains levels. It sounds to me like he would want to be able to go Large at 4th level when he gets a 2nd rage. Then jump to huge at 8th (probably arguing that the steps for tiny and plant shapes make no sense for the character so he should skip them completely).

Would he be happy with changing the flavor text on rage so that he's not getting angry? Tell him instead of Rage he has Totemic Avatar. Same combat boosts as rage, same duration, same everything except he takes on bear-like qualities instead of frothing at the mouth.

If he's truly less concerned about combat effectiveness and just wants flavor for the character, he'll be happy to take WotC's bear totem barbarian variant from the SRD. It gives up such wonderful things as fast movement, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge. In return it gets +3 hit points, +4 to grapples, and +2 to fortitude saves. Eventually it gets another +4 to grapples when raging.

Another alternative is WotC's crafty hunter variant, which gives up rage features in place of favored enemy and archery.

Very nice, thank you for helping brush up here.

QuoteIt looks to me like he's latched onto one of the most powerful customization options he could find and ignored some flavorful, but less combat worthy, styles in the same book. That he then says he's losing combat effectiveness is suspect.

Also, feel free to tell him that yes, wild shape is indeed more powerful than rage. If he doesn't believe you he can post the question to the uber munchkins over at the WotC forum's character optimization boards.

Just the sort of help I was looking for. Thanks!

Jreints is right about the grapple being a pain in the ass.

however...if he wanted to swap out 2 uses of rage for one use of a power that lets him turn into a large bear (only! no other shapeshifting!), I might allow that. Bear-ing is better than raging but I can see enough similarity that I might be willing to tolerate it. So like this:

4th level - Bear Form 1/day

12th level - Bear Form 2/day

20th level - Bear Form 3/day, maybe with a little extra mustard for the mighty rage.

Otherwise, as barbarian.

The Bearlord (Animal Lord PrC from Masters of the Wild) is another option. At 3rd level he gets "Lesser" Wild Shape (Bear only, but any number of times/day).

Quote from: Pierce InverarityThe Bearlord (Animal Lord PrC from Masters of the Wild) is another option. At 3rd level he gets "Lesser" Wild Shape (Bear only, but any number of times/day).

Masters of the Wild is a 3.0 source, the new version of the PrC isn't able to do this anymore. I've seen it in play, a bit too nice...

Other options:

-- start him with the ability to shift into Small animals only, then to Medium at 4th, Large at 8th, Tiny as the next step.  That should get him to Huge at what, 16th level?  Not unbalanced IMO.  

-- He get no shapeshifting to start with, but give him Speak WIth Animals and Animal Empathy at first level in place of basic rage, then allow him a Black Bear form (medium, IIRC) at 4th and a brown bear (large) at 8th.  Maybe give him know (nature) as a class skill.

Quote from: Lee ShortOther options:

-- start him with the ability to shift into Small animals only, then to Medium at 4th, Large at 8th, Tiny as the next step.  That should get him to Huge at what, 16th level?  Not unbalanced IMO.  

-- He get no shapeshifting to start with, but give him Speak WIth Animals and Animal Empathy at first level in place of basic rage, then allow him a Black Bear form (medium, IIRC) at 4th and a brown bear (large) at 8th.  Maybe give him know (nature) as a class skill.

That sounds like a good option, Mr. Short.

Sounds generous to me, Lee, if that's meant as a clean substitution for Rage. Shapeshifting into animals in general is an amazingly versatile power.

Yeah, a little bit over the top. Rage isn't _that_ powerful. PHB II shapeshifting might be a rather good option, it's much more balanced for changing shapes from the very first level. And much easier to factor in...

Rather than discussing specific options, ask the player what he wants to be able to do combat-wise in general. Yes, he wants something that fits with his story, blah blah blah, fine, don't ignore that, BUT the issue at hand is rules and combat effectiveness, so get it straight from him what he wants. If he says, "I want to turn into a bear and kick ass, but I don't want to get all angry about it," well cool, now you know, and you can ask, "At what level are you expecting to be able to do that? Because that's pretty hoss for first level."

Also, the character sounds strongly like a ranger rather than a barbarian. Ask him about that. If it's because he wants d12 hit points rather than d8 and a warrior BAB, that's cool, it's his choice to pick his own class and he shouldn't have to feel gimped because of his backstory. He certainly shouldn't have to be a Bear Totem Barbarian, because they look godawful. But neither should he be able to get bear stats at level 1. There has to be a compromise in there.

Just let him play an anthropomorph Panda Barbarian

I want to thank all of you-your input has been highly[/u] valuable to me. I really appreciate it.

Quote from: SosthenesJust let him play an anthropomorph Panda Barbarian

something like this?

Quote from: Lee Short-- He get no shapeshifting to start with, but give him Speak WIth Animals and Animal Empathy at first level in place of basic rage, then allow him a Black Bear form (medium, IIRC) at 4th and a brown bear (large) at 8th.  Maybe give him know (nature) as a class skill.

This one looks pretty good as a general class ability, but I think it's more potent then Rage is at higher levels. You might want to knock out one or two of the less key abilities like Trap Sense. Moving out Damage Reduction in exchange for Bear Forms seems fair too, but it's a delicate balance.

My suggestion? Drop Dmg. Reduction and Rage in favor of shifting and Knowledge (Nature) as above. Ideas?

And the end result?

The player in question has realized that this is way too much trouble, both for him and me, and has settled on a new-to be revealed-concept!

I thank you all for your valuable input, and for helping keep my game from being a bit more absurd!(A little absurd is good. A lot, not so much.)