Has anyone tried running one of these before? I recently got a copy of Karak Azgal after someone over on RPG.net mentioned it as the big WFRP dungeoncrawl, but I'm not totally happy with it. I was thinking of designing one to run for a bunch of buddies of mine who've never had a full on dungeoncrawl before.

The basic idea would be that a bunch of orcs took advantage of the Storm of Chaos to sack and capture a castle and the surrounding village. The owner didn't manage to flee in time because tax revenues had just come in, and he was trying to bring them with him. His heir needs the money to hire soldiers to clean out the orcs, and promises the PCs a small fraction of it (several hundred GC total) if they can recover it with a bonus for any orcs they can kill along the way. There are too many orcs for the PCs to kill them all, so they've got to use their brains to get in and get out with several hundred pounds of gold. The noble has arranged to meet them (with his personal guard) nearby at the most plausible escape route, a deep and swift-flowing river that the orcs probably won't be able to swim across.

The levels of the dungeon would be the outer farmlands and forest surrounding the village, the village itself, the castle-grounds (inside the wall), and the keep where the money is hidden.

The premise is a good one. Any WFRP scenario where success is contingent on the wholesale slaughter of the enemy runs headfirst into the inherent lethality of the system, so you're wise to emphasise the objective being theft achieved via stealth, with combat as a last resort.  

On which note, I'm guessing that characters will be well into advanced career progressions. Orcs are are tough opponents, quite capable of destroying a group of neophyte adventurers in a single encounter, and even experienced characters will feel the absence of easy healing as they gradually succumb to attrition. Be sure that they're aware of the advantages of ambush tactics, ranged strikes and weight of numbers. Combats in WFRP can be swift and relatively safe when everyone is aware of a few basic strategies.

The Enemy Within had 3 dungeon crawls - the chaos castle on the Reik, the underground complex in the Something Rotten in Kislev and the old dwarven hold, now orc home, in Empire in Flames. I found them the weakest element in all 3 adventures - the chaos castle was ok because the adventure had got the characters motivated to investigate it at the end and there were options for different routes of entry. Plus the setting - big, gothic castle inhabited by chaos warped nobility had lots of imaginative little rooms that still seemed appropriate within the setting.

The other two were a lot more forced and did little to really drive the adventure forward - they seemed more a product of lazy thinking although in neither case were they strict dungeoncrawls but more breaking and entering similar to what you described. Still quite dull though.

I think the idea has a lot of merit though if there's a clear objective, especially if the players could go crazy in planning their approach using some of the tongue in cheek elements of WFRP - dwarven hangliders spring to mind or copying wholesale from Where Eagles Dare with the players having some magical disguise to pass as orcs or as agents of chaos.  

Some other ideas - taking a leaf from Death on the Reik, the real goal of the noble is securing a lump of warpstone his father had hidden. This drew the orcs and now the skaven. The twist is neither skaven nor PC's alone can secure their objectives and need to work together.

Or the noble thinks all of his serfs have been killed or fled (and has pronounced them outlaw for fleeing) and has sold their landholdings to prospective new tenants/serfs (something similar to what actually happened in middle ages, particularly German expansion into eastern europe). In the course of the adventure, the players come across a band of serfs who survived the orcs invasions and are fighting back. However if the players succeed the humans will still be outlaws and the noble is unwilling to listen to reason as he has already sold their tenancy off.

Is there a way PC's can trick, scare, outsmart or otherwise cause orcs to flee? Maybe that could substitute, at times, for out and out violence?

What's to stop them from sneaking off with all the cash? Or rather, what happens if they do?

I set up an encounter once, where the PC's had to get rid of 500 orcs, who had invaded a small part of the woodlands tended to by an Treant, and some fey creatures. They promise the PC's the location of a hidden treasure if they just got rid of the orcs.

The PC's spent several days just on recon. They discovered that the Orcs were floating wood down the river to use to construct a fort. They also discovered that the river was deep, and powerful, and sat higher in most parts than the section that the Orcs were building on. So instead of taking them on head on they used Summon Natures Ally to summon Beaver's to build a damn, along with their other magics and abilities. It took a few days of constant work, but soon they had a hell of a damn built.

The Orc's of course start wondering what the hell is happening to all of the water and send a force out to see what's up. The PC's purposefully allow three Orc's to escape, thinking that the PC's are just the spearhead for a larger force. So the ORc's mount up everything they got, and come at them. The PC's let them come in hard and fast and unleash the river on them.

After the game was over, the question was asked-how do we handle handing out XP here? Do they just get some XP for being clever, or do they get the XP for all of those Orcs? In the end it was a hilarious game, one that lives in infamy.

Quote from: Serious Paul;279423I set up an encounter once, where the PC's had to get rid of 500 orcs, who had invaded a small part of the woodlands tended to by an Treant, and some fey creatures. They promise the PC's the location of a hidden treasure if they just got rid of the orcs.

The PC's spent several days just on recon. They discovered that the Orcs were floating wood down the river to use to construct a fort. They also discovered that the river was deep, and powerful, and sat higher in most parts than the section that the Orcs were building on. So instead of taking them on head on they used Summon Natures Ally to summon Beaver's to build a damn, along with their other magics and abilities. It took a few days of constant work, but soon they had a hell of a damn built.

The Orc's of course start wondering what the hell is happening to all of the water and send a force out to see what's up. The PC's purposefully allow three Orc's to escape, thinking that the PC's are just the spearhead for a larger force. So the ORc's mount up everything they got, and come at them. The PC's let them come in hard and fast and unleash the river on them.

After the game was over, the question was asked-how do we handle handing out XP here? Do they just get some XP for being clever, or do they get the XP for all of those Orcs? In the end it was a hilarious game, one that lives in infamy.

Cool plan on the PCs part. How did you end up awarding XP?

Quote from: Serious Paul;279421Is there a way PC's can trick, scare, outsmart or otherwise cause orcs to flee? Maybe that could substitute, at times, for out and out violence?

That's one possible route I'm thinking. Orcs in WFRP have an animosity rule where they'll fight, backstab and squabble at the slightest opportunity, even in preference to smashing puny humans (Other orcs put up a better fight and are more important to them than some weak pink monkey). Clever PCs will probably be able to exploit that.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;279422What's to stop them from sneaking off with all the cash? Or rather, what happens if they do?

Nothing more than having to flee from the orcs carrying scads of cash which will weigh them down. The orcs will have wolves with them in the castle, which should make hunting down the PCs easy if they try to flee across the fields into the woods. The noble will have a landing about a half-mile to the south of the castle with a boat they will be able to load up and flee across the river in, which should prevent the heavily-armoured orcs from pursuing them easily.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;279426Cool plan on the PCs part. How did you end up awarding XP?

In the end I gave them an XP award for the Orc, not all 500 mind you-because a few managed not to drown, but I gave them a fair award for defeating them, and an award for the creativity they displayed in pulling it off.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;279430That's one possible route I'm thinking. Orcs in WFRP have an animosity rule where they'll fight, backstab and squabble at the slightest opportunity, even in preference to smashing puny humans (Other orcs put up a better fight and are more important to them than some weak pink monkey). Clever PCs will probably be able to exploit that.

Sounds fun!

I don't see why a WFRP dungeon has to have less fighting than a D&D dungeon. Yes, it has to have perhaps less of a range of monsters, because in WFRP the "monster power level" spikes very quickly, so you won't get a dungeon with two or three dragons like you might in D&D (in fact, you probably won't ever get a dungeon with a dragon at all unless you really want your PCs to die).  But you can fill the dungeon with "same-level" or "lower-level" monsters (beastmen, greenskins, other humans, minor undead, halflings, the French, chaos cultists, etc etc.) and fight it out galore. If your PCs are really so wussed that they'll have a bigger chance of dying in WFRP than in a 1st-level game of AD&D, you're obviously doing something wrong.
Shit, one of the most "invincible" tanks I ever saw in an RPG was in my WFRP campaign, a dwarf with plate mail obviously, so he was pretty close to physically invulnerable, but besides that his WS was up to something like 87%.  Add a master-quality weapon to the mix, and that sort of character can put a high-level D&D character to shame.

RPGPundit

I don't see why a WFRP dungeon has to have less fighting than a D&D dungeon. Yes, it has to have perhaps less of a range of monsters, because in WFRP the "monster power level" spikes very quickly, so you won't get a dungeon with two or three dragons like you might in D&D (in fact, you probably won't ever get a dungeon with a dragon at all unless you really want your PCs to die).  But you can fill the dungeon with "same-level" or "lower-level" monsters (beastmen, greenskins, other humans, minor undead, halflings, the French, chaos cultists, etc etc.) and fight it out galore. If your PCs are really so wussed that they'll have a bigger chance of dying in WFRP than in a 1st-level game of AD&D, you're obviously doing something wrong.
Shit, one of the most "invincible" tanks I ever saw in an RPG was in my WFRP campaign, a dwarf with plate mail obviously, so he was pretty close to physically invulnerable, but besides that his WS was up to something like 87%.  Add a master-quality weapon to the mix, and that sort of character can put a high-level D&D character to shame.

So please, let's cut this Swine bullshit about "WFRP is not for combat!"

RPGPundit

I have to agree with the Pundit on this one.  There is nothing preventing WFRP from being played as an old school mega-dungeon romp.  You just have to tailor the game your playing to fit in with that theme if you want it to have extended success.  If you make WFRP characters like you'd make a similar D&D group you'd be fine.  Ditch your rat catchers and bring in pit fighters, shield blockers, body guards, Soldiers, mages, clerrics etc... you'll be fine.

Toughness 3 or 4 plus 5 levels of armour makes most characters damn tough specially if they have the dodge skill.  Also if you have a healer in the group (even a good mundane healer with poultices) the downtime to repair injuries after combat are quite short actually.  Throw in some strategic use of Fortune points for some healing and skill use as well and it's pretty easy to keep a group cruising through a dungeon.

Where the random factor still lies though is in damage rolls on the part of the GM.  Couple results of Sigmar's Wrath can still wreck havoc, but that's part of the fun.

double post - weird board errors still

Quote from: RPGPundit;279550I don't see why a WFRP dungeon has to have less fighting than a D&D dungeon. Yes, it has to have perhaps less of a range of monsters, because in WFRP the "monster power level" spikes very quickly, so you won't get a dungeon with two or three dragons like you might in D&D (in fact, you probably won't ever get a dungeon with a dragon at all unless you really want your PCs to die).  But you can fill the dungeon with "same-level" or "lower-level" monsters (beastmen, greenskins, other humans, minor undead, halflings, the French, chaos cultists, etc etc.) and fight it out galore. If your PCs are really so wussed that they'll have a bigger chance of dying in WFRP than in a 1st-level game of AD&D, you're obviously doing something wrong.
Shit, one of the most "invincible" tanks I ever saw in an RPG was in my WFRP campaign, a dwarf with plate mail obviously, so he was pretty close to physically invulnerable, but besides that his WS was up to something like 87%.  Add a master-quality weapon to the mix, and that sort of character can put a high-level D&D character to shame.

So please, let's cut this Swine bullshit about "WFRP is not for combat!"

No one is saying that.

Quote from: kryyst;279557Where the random factor still lies though is in damage rolls on the part of the GM.  Couple results of Sigmar's Wrath can still wreck havoc, but that's part of the fun.

It's called Ulric's Fury, and yes, it means that even the most experienced and best armoured characters can be one-shotted, especially by large monsters who express some of their size advantage as multiple attacks.