I dunno. It was only a couple of weeks ago that the argument against DW was that it was so strange and dissociative as to not even count as an RPG - 'this isn't roleplaying'. Now that the pundit has decreed it to be an RPG, suddenly all the ideas and mechanics in it are deemed to be old hat - 'lots of roleplaying games do this, what's the big deal'.

Quote from: soviet;683651I dunno. It was only a couple of weeks ago that the argument against DW was that it was so strange and dissociative as to not even count as an RPG - 'this isn't roleplaying'. Now that the pundit has decreed it to be an RPG, suddenly all the ideas and mechanics in it are deemed to be old hat - 'lots of roleplaying games do this, what's the big deal'.

Context, oh warrior in the war. Context.

Quote from: Zachary The First;683601Some would say that calling out non-trolling as some sort of trolling probably qualifies as a form of trolling.

Some would also probably call JA an obnoxious shit. So there's that.

If somebody hit up a thread about, say, Lords of Olympus and spent multiple pages saying, "So it's just like Eclipse Phase? I don't get it. I mean, if it all comes down to don't roll dice and the GM uses fiat, what's with all the text?" that person would be a troll.

Same behavior in this thread? Also a troll.

The gullible will, of course, continue engaging with and defending the troll.

Quote from: soviet;683651I dunno. It was only a couple of weeks ago that the argument against DW was that it was so strange and dissociative as to not even count as an RPG - 'this isn't roleplaying'. Now that the pundit has decreed it to be an RPG, suddenly all the ideas and mechanics in it are deemed to be old hat - 'lots of roleplaying games do this, what's the big deal'.

The group-think is strong on this site. The best part is that it's the exact same mechanics that they were claiming made it "not an RPG" three weeks ago that are suddenly old-hat and used in every RPG this week.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;683658The group-think is strong on this site.

If you strike me down now, i'll become more powerful than you could ever imagine!

So wait a minute. Wondering what differenciates Dungeon World from games that preceded it, like say... D&D, is like comparing Lords of Olympus to Eclipse Phase, but on the other hand, Dungeon World totally plays like... totally "Old School style" and if you say there's a fundamental difference you're a badwrong hater against everything that is good about Dungeon World?

Color me confused. You guys really sound like chills who want to have it both ways.

Quote from: One Horse Town;683663If you strike me down now, i'll become more powerful than you could ever imagine!

Only you could be so bold. The Imperial Senate will not sit still for this.

One thing that's keeps being said is that the game is just 2D6 with degrees of success. But that's an oversimplification if you're trying to differentiate the game from others. First, there's a lot more to playing the game then dice mechanics. I'd point to the section on the GM's Agendas, Principles and Moves as a good place to see where the game really lives. Second, its not just succeed with a cost. It's Succeed, succeed partially or with a cost as explicitly defined in the move you've triggered, and GM fiat.

The fact that the move specifies what happens on a 7-9 result is an important different from simply succeed with a cost. If you're rolling Defend, on a 7-9 you get to pick one from the list of effects rather than three. It's not time for the GM to come up with a complication. If you roll a 6, you don't necessarily fail your defend. The GM makes a move.

Quote from: Rincewind1;683687Only you could be so bold. The Imperial Senate will not sit still for this.

We don't care, GMs have UNLIMITED POWER.

Quote from: Benoist;683666So wait a minute. Wondering what differenciates Dungeon World from games that preceded it, like say... D&D, is like comparing Lords of Olympus to Eclipse Phase, but on the other hand, Dungeon World totally plays like... totally "Old School style" and if you say there's a fundamental difference you're a badwrong hater against everything that is good about Dungeon World?

Color me confused. You guys really sound like chills who want to have it both ways.

I don't know if I fall into the category of folks you're talking about or not.  But I'll go ahead and respond with *my* opinion.

DW mechanics aren't, in many ways, particularly novel.  The 2d6 mechanic is interesting, but partial success/etc. isn't new.  There's very little that's actually *new*.

What's interesting is how they're put together.  Not any one piece or component, but the thing as a whole.  So if you just say "oh, success with complications, that's been done," you're right.  Absolutely.  And you can say that about any one piece, and it's not interesting.  Much like my hypothetical distilling example earlier - distilling from 50 to 60 proof isn't interesting.  Distilling from 50 to 150 *is*.

The GM advice (which, in some cases, are actually *rules*) is a pretty good primer on running a certain type of old-school game.  What's more is that it makes an expectation of what playing Dungeon World *is*, and what the designers really designed around.  That doesn't mean you can't ignore it, of course, there are no DW police - but a guideline of how the game was designed and 'optimized' is a good thing.

It has an "old school feel" in certain ways.  The players make the same types of decisions.  They do the same things.  A lot of the focus is the same.  The specific dice rolled isn't the same, and the numbers on the papers aren't the same.  But what the players engage with, and the decisions they make, is very reminiscent of old school games.

Except turbo-charged.  A lot of the bookkeeping is gone.  The game does a great job of turning it up to eleven in a lot of ways.

So there's nothing new.  Each individual mechanic has been done before, but how they impact play as a whole is interesting.  The mechanics are different, but end up with an "old school feel".

And I'm not claiming it's the be-all, end-all.  I like it, but it's not a holy crusade.  There's some things it's well suited for, and others it's not suited for at all.

Well first off, congrats to DW for an award.

Next, since the PDF help summary I read only goes so far, what else is there in Agendas, Principles, and Moves? From what I read explaining Moves is that they are pre-fabricated structures on how to judge DoS on an attempt. Agendas were outlines on NPC motivations, roughly structured in a rather linear timeline in the proffered examples, etc. Outside Moves -- pre-fab DoS tables attached to actions  (an idea already extant too I might add) -- being used for almost everything, what novelty am I missing?

I also find the DoS spread and Move structure rather limiting. I mean the DoS results are basically: yes; yes, but (pre-fab); no, and (GM fiat). I guess useful if it's your first time at the rodeo, but not all that for me.

Quote from: Opaopajr;683744I also find the DoS spread and Move structure rather limiting. I mean the DoS results are basically: yes; yes, but (pre-fab); no, and (GM fiat). I guess useful if it's your first time at the rodeo, but not all that for me.

First off, 'no' isn't just GM fiat, though there's an element of that.  There are specific GM Moves that you're supposed to use.  Though as I've said, they're more 'categories' than anything - reminders of interesting things you can do.

As a mechanics-first game, DW fails horribly.  There's not enough there.  That's why the rules place such an emphasis on playing in "the fiction", with rules like "to do it, you have to do it" - which just means that the description of what your character is doing comes *first*, and it's that description that triggers the move.  The idea is to get people mostly engaged in the Theater of the Mind, and to use the rules, dice, and numbers when necessary, rather than having the dice and numbers on the character sheet be the "main" thing, and having them drive the "theater of the mind" stuff.

So I guess I'm saying that if you're judging the game by the depth and complexity of the mechanics, and how interesting it is to engage directly with the mechanics, you're absolutely correct.  That is absolutely not what the game is designed to do.

As far as "first time at the rodeo", well, as I said, a table full of experienced gamers (one was a previous MIB for SJG, most were 40+) found the game crazy fun and engaging when doing nothing but fighting a cave full of kobolds.

And their reaction when I pointed this out later was "It was nothing but a cave of kobolds??  Huh... you're right.  That's pretty cool."

So, I disagree with that bit, but if you're looking primarily for an interesting, complex mechanical system, yeah, it doesn't do that.

I'm starting to believe (based on this thread at least partially) that it's a game you have to really play to understand.  The rules aren't much to read, it's all about what happens at the table.

Actually, like most games, I think it just boils down to the GM and players with which you are playing.

Quote from: Ladybird;683047I'm sure you'll enjoy it, it's a good game, but don't change the subject. If you're going to criticize Dungeon World, criticise it for something it actually does, not just complaining that is has terminology and then making something up about it.

Bless you.  Reading through this thread I kept asking myself "I wonder how many of the haters have actually played the thing?

Hey, I like DW.  It's a lot of fun.  And, it has some weak spots.  And, it does play like how my old games of D&D as a high schooler in the 80's did.  And that's both fun and not fun in some ways.  I do wish there were some slightly more mechanicals to it, but it's a real charm to run.  I also wish there were a few more limits on the players -- because it does get a bit out of hand when the players aren't abiding by any sort of rules of trust. But, you know, that doesn't make it a bad game nor undeserving of this win.  It just makes it something that has to be dealt with, kinda like negative AC values and experience for gold.

I have the game, and I read it.

Quote from: brettmb;683760Actually, like most games, I think it just boils down to the GM and players with which you are playing.

Yep. I pretty said this in my first response to you:

Quote from: Skywalker;683343It captures a particular freewheeling style for playing D&D. If you like that style, or you played D&D in that style, its a lot of fun. There is really not much more to it than that.

Its just a well designed RPG with a particular style that some GM and players gel well with.