Quote from: Simlasa;733478Well, I'm basing that comment on nonsense I've seen on TBP... talk of games being 'evolved' vs. 'old', 'obsolete'... general chatter. Not that I've run into such nonsense in the real world. People who turn their nose up at OD&D but praise DW as the hot new thing.
I was also only half-seriously trying to paraphrase what CRKrueger wrote.

Ah yes.  You're right.  I forgot that there are actually lots of people like that.  I don't think of them as being in the hobby though as I have doubts they actually play much at all.

Thanks for pointing that out.  I was wrong about that.  They definitely exist.

Quote from: Simlasa;733478Well, I'm basing that comment on nonsense I've seen on TBP... talk of games being 'evolved' vs. 'old', 'obsolete'... general chatter. Not that I've run into such nonsense in the real world. People who turn their nose up at OD&D but praise DW as the hot new thing.
I was also only half-seriously trying to paraphrase what CRKrueger wrote.

Sage, DW's author, isn't too keen on them either, and is a big D&D fan.

Essentially, there's two groups of DW fans... the ones who think it's a revelatory revolution in gaming, and the ones who know that it isn't.

Quote from: CRKrueger;733434For someone like Old Geezer, DW really is no different, because he doesn't really play any differently.  For a lot of people, they read DW and conclude they don't need formalization of the process they've internalized over many years, even decades.

For people who haven't been playing that way, and may have been looking down on D&D from the narrative side of things, the old school style with Baker Story-cred is a revelation.  Plus, the rules easily allow a more narrative style of play.

Pretty much.  Like I said, if DW helped somebody grok old style play, hooray!

Quote from: Sigmund;733441It is a pretentious game to me. That's the hardest part of reading it. Still, that does not mean it isn't a fun game to play, and I'd be perfectly happy to give it a try. I don't feel like it offers me anything I can't get experientially in many other more "traditional" RPGs, but neither does BBF and I love that little game.

I didn't find it pretentious, but I did find it "trying too hard" to be sarcastic and ironic an' shit.  The class descriptions are all written with the attitude of 'We all know these old school classes and archetypes are old fashioned and lame but we're putting them in the game in a hip and ironic way.'

Playing a Paladin was fun.  Playing with a guy who was playing a Fighter was fun.

Reading the descriptions of the classes made me groan.

Quote from: Old Geezer;733498Reading the descriptions of the classes made me groan.

I am of a different opinion. I like the class descriptors; they speak to you the player, instead of the general "fighters all do this" sort of schlock that riddles modern RPGs.

Its tone reads like old-school Warhammer.

Its tone speaks to me, not down to me.

Its tone is a bit tongue in cheek, which RPG authors should strive towards in their own writing.

It also reads like my own RPG ZWEIHÄNDER.

Above all else - say what you will about the rules - it assumes everyone playing it understands the typical fantasy tropes out the gate.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;733455That's irrelevant. This phrase — "the Fiction" — is both pretentious and disruptive. It's a pointless affectation.

"In-game" or "in-character" is better, clearer, and less affected.

No it isn't because two terms you think are better are completely irrelevant to how the the word is used in game.  In fact the only terms I can think of which are more appropriate are even more pretentious.

Quote from: Old Geezer;733399All this "narrative first" is just a fancy-ass way of saying "Tell what you're trying to accomplish, don't spout rule shit."  Just like D&D back in 1974.

Of course, I've seen people complain that they couldn't understand CHAINMAIL, so maybe the problem is that people are stupid.

On a fundamental level its way more than that and its probably Dungeon World's greatest innovation contrasted to D&D.

Quote from: technoextreme;733519No it isn't because two terms you think are better are completely irrelevant to how the the word is used in game.  In fact the only terms I can think of which are more appropriate are even more pretentious.
On a fundamental level its way more than that and its probably Dungeon World's greatest innovation contrasted to D&D.

I'd say that that DW is more a style of playing D&D that's been more codified in the DW rules. You can play the kind of descriptive, ad-lib, make-it-up-as-you-play kind of games in D&D, but DW has rules that make that kind of play easier. (for me at least.) Where D&D allows it, DW helps it. Evolution of a particular style as opposed to innovation.

I read some older versions of D&D Dungeon Master's guide, and it flat-out told me that being a good GM was all about some esoteric bullshit skills that the guide wasn't going to teach me, and I should hunt down some magazine to try and learn those skills.

Quote from: AD&D 2eBeing a good Dungeon Master involves a lot more than knowing the rules. It calls for quick wit, theatrical flair, and a good sense of dramatic timing—among other things. Most of us can claim these attributes to some degree, but there's always room for improvement.
Fortunately, skills like these can be learned and improved with practice. There are hundreds of tricks, shortcuts, and simple principles that can make you a better, more dramatic, and more creative game master. But you won't find them in the Dungeon Master Guide. This is a reference book for running the AD&D game. We tried to minimize material that doesn't pertain to the immediate conduct of the game. If you are interested in reading more about this aspect of refereeing, we refer you to Dragon® Magazine, published monthly by TSR, Inc.

Dungeon World (and Apoc world before it) turned most of the rules that are used for finding out what happens next into player facing rules, and took GM advice, distilled it into statements of intentions and consequences, and made it the GM's rules.

Quote from: Dungeon WorldThere are many different fantasy genres, each with their own style or advice for GMing. Dungeon World is designed for one of those styles in particular—a world of elves, orcs, dragons and magic where dark dangers mix with lighthearted adventure. The rules in this chapter will help you run a game in that style.

The characters have rules to follow when they roll dice and take actions. The GM has rules to follow, too. You’ll be refereeing, adjudicating, and describing the world as you go—Dungeon World provides a framework to guide you in doing so.

This chapter isn’t about advice for the GM or optional tips and tricks on how best to play Dungeon World. It’s a chapter with procedures and rules for whoever takes on the role of GM.

For anyone interested you can find the rest of the GM rules for free here.

Quote from: One Horse Town;733447You've changed your mind since this then?

http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=693684&postcount=1

I can like some aspects of the rules while criticizing others.  I think DW is a pretty solid game, but there are some problems with how the rules function.

Quote from: Old Geezer;733399maybe the problem is that people are stupid.

Every single fucking one of them.

Quote from: technoextreme;733519No it isn't because two terms you think are better are completely irrelevant to how the the word is used in game.  In fact the only terms I can think of which are more appropriate are even more pretentious.
On a fundamental level its way more than that and its probably Dungeon World's greatest innovation contrasted to D&D.

Grand and deep knowledge — that you don't explain — that's a great innovation over D&D.

Not pretentious at all, then.

Quote from: Ladybird;733464Almost the entire text is available online, if you want to read it before buying it. All it's missing is the margin notes.

Thanks!

Looks trad enough at a first read, with a bit of confusing jargon on the way.

I have half a mind to hybridize this with J Arcane's Drums of War: Warcraft RPG and use the resulting Frankengame to run something new school and MMO-ey (in terms of fluff anyway).

Quote from: The Butcher;733805Thanks!

Looks trad enough at a first read, with a bit of confusing jargon on the way.

I have half a mind to hybridize this with J Arcane's Drums of War: Warcraft RPG and use the resulting Frankengame to run something new school and MMO-ey (in terms of fluff anyway).

It reads a lot clearer than Apocalypse World; I didn't even understand that as being a game for ages. But Sage seems to know his genre well, and benefited from further understanding of the * World system, so that helps a lot. "Moves" are just another word for "rules" from other systems... the bit that I found the least intuitive was "take x forwards" and "hold x", but it works in play.

I don't know how well it would mesh with any mechanical stuff from outside the * World design style, but fluff is fluff, and that sounds like a fun set-up.

I haven't read Drums of War, though. I could be wrong about it.

Quote from: Ladybird;733857I haven't read Drums of War, though. I could be wrong about it.

It's d20-based and some footwork will be required, but I think it can be done.

Quote from: Archangel Fascist;733389I mean, someone on SomethingAwful wrote up a huge long guide on how the game is supposed to be run because it was too hard for new players to understand.

DW is a non-traditional RPG. The people who seem to have difficulty comprehending it seem to be primarily traditional RPG players who can't grok any other way of designing or playing an RPG.

I saw similar issues, albeit to a lesser degree, back when L5R was first released: The non-traditional breakdown of stats (instead of the traditional dualism of brain vs. body) broke some people's brains.

Quote from: Endless Flight;733407What's with the "begins and ends with the fiction" stuff that I've read about online? I don't know much about it.

That basically translates: Make decisions and describe what you're doing in terms of the game world.

If we applied this to a traditional RPG like D&D we might say something like: "Don't say 'I'm going to use the grapple rules now'. Instead say 'I grab the motherfucker'."

On the flip side, once you've used a rule the output goes back into the fiction. The mechanical outcome might be "you lose 2 hp", but the final step of resolution needs to be taking that mechanical abstraction and putting it back into the game world ("he strangles the fuck out of you").

Quote from: Justin Alexander;733986

Quote from: Endless Flight;733407What's with the "begins and ends with the fiction"  stuff that I've read about online? I don't know much about it.

That basically translates: Make decisions and describe what you're doing in terms of the game world.

If we applied this to a traditional RPG like D&D we might say something like: "Don't say 'I'm going to use the grapple rules now'. Instead say 'I grab the motherfucker'."

On the flip side, once you've used a rule the output goes back into the fiction. The mechanical outcome might be "you lose 2 hp", but the final step of resolution needs to be taking that mechanical abstraction and putting it back into the game world ("he strangles the fuck out of you").