TheRPGSite

http://dungeonofsigns.blogspot.it

QuoteWell some of you may have noticed this blog has been down, restricting access for some time.  For various reasons I've decided to step away from the OSR and the tabletop gaming web community - possibly permanently. Part my decision to withdraw is personal, I find myself with insufficient time and desire to write about games but I also have the sense that the 'OSR' scene this blog is devoted to has become a rather disgusting place where crass commercialization is strangling a formerly creative amateur community, and where destructive 'alt-right' views are becoming increasingly prevalent, even among some of the more significant publishers in the community.  This isn't to say that there aren't still wonderful creatives and writers within the OSR community, and that I don't consider many of those I've met there real friends.

To put it another way - the OSR isn't fun for me anymore, and as such I will be officially shutting this blog down.  I've been asked to maintain the site as an archive for others to use, and will do so - though I'm shutting down the comments.  I still appreciate that the blog's many readers have enjoyed it over the years and I've enjoyed comment discussions, but don't wish to keep up with trimming the spam.

So Goodbye and Good Luck, thanks for reading.

- Gus L.

Sad news, indeed.

Those damm Nazis, ruined another blog.:rolleyes:

I'm wondering what horrible " 'alt right' " comments on his blog put him over the edge. Did someone not apologize for being born?

The OSR seems to me to be winding down and sputtering out as a creative movement. I guess it was inevitably going to happen sooner or later.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;1040520The OSR seems to me to be winding down and sputtering out as a creative movement.

I would rather say that it's served it's purpose. There's only so much lore to be uncovered.

Alt-Right is mentioned, but not Ctrl-Left for some reason.

Struggling to think how crass commercialisation might strangle the OSR...I guess someone else sold more copies than him?

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;1040520The OSR seems to me to be winding down and sputtering out as a creative movement.

It's changing.

The OSR has covered so much territory and cranked out such huge amount of product (free and otherwise) in the past decade plus that most everything a gamer could want has been done...probably several times. I am quite sure the OSR has created x10 the page count of TSR. At certain point, there's gonna be fatigue.

I fully expect great OSR stuff to be produced in the future, but much of it might not be directly TSR compatible.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1040541I fully expect great OSR stuff to be produced in the future, but much of it might not be directly TSR compatible.

Agreed. I see no sign of "peak OSR". As for the man's reasons, I think that generally that publishers within the  OSR have been far less "crassly commercial" than other publishers like WotC and WW. In fact, with a few exceptions, the OSR is much more concerned with quality, substance and content than image and fads.

Moreover there are lots of creative newcomers still arriving on the scene: Just this year; Low Fantasy Gaming is getting regular excelletn support, Lion & Dragon too, Echoes From Fomalhaut is a new recent zine and Black Pudding has a new isuse while RPG Pundit Presents is stronger than ever. Greis Games is kicking out some great adventures, Beyond the Wall has a new release coming up soon and Stars Without Number has just released a second edition and thene ther is Midderlands new material that I am looking forward to receriving this Autumn...


No. I cannot agree with the "OSR ain't what it used to be".

Nor can I agree that the presence of the Alt-Right is somehow a thing of the OSR. Sorry but this leftie says bollox it is.

I am just sad to see a good blog and a good writer leave the hobby. I hope he reconsiders.

I'm one of the people he thinks is "alt-right" (he's called me a cryptofascist), for as far as I can tell saying that assaulting people on the street for political beliefs is a bad thing to do, and that my criticism of Jordan Peterson doesn't reach the levels of total condemnation.

Quote from: JimLotFP;1040549I'm one of the people he thinks is "alt-right" (he's called me a cryptofascist), for as far as I can tell saying that assaulting people on the street for political beliefs is a bad thing to do, and that my criticism of Jordan Peterson doesn't reach the levels of total condemnation.

Well that just made me a little less sad to see the fellow quit. In fact, the word "flounce" is now springing to mind.

Cheers Jim!

Yeah, I'm rather conflicted about this.

Great imagination, excellent reviews and posts, but he was part of a particular set on G+ who couldn't accept the legitimacy or even existence of politics other than a narrow far-left vanguardism. He was a creative guy, but also someone who seemed all too keen to become judge, jury and executioner. As for the "alt-right" label, it has lost any possible meaning in the sense he has been using it, having been affixed to anyone to the right of Lenin.

All in all, sad.

That's too bad. I was hoping to see a HMS Apollyon sourcebook at some point.

It's sad he chose to place politics over gaming.

But since he did, it's a good thing he had to leave because all of gaming wasn't marching in lockstep to his ideology.  When anyone, from any side, leaves because of that reason, there's only one response:

Spoiler

(https://media.giphy.com/media/qEBlgZpZWHihO/giphy.gif)

Yeah if this is the nut Im thinking of then good riddance.

Quote from: JimLotFP;1040549I'm one of the people he thinks is "alt-right" (he's called me a cryptofascist), for as far as I can tell saying that assaulting people on the street for political beliefs is a bad thing to do, and that my criticism of Jordan Peterson doesn't reach the levels of total condemnation.

If he said that, he's a bad sort.

It's sad to see people get all twisted up by politics these days.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1040547I see no sign of "peak OSR".

I agree (again). We only recently got a decent OSR sci-fi version. And there is a real dearth of old-style modules for sci-fi. By "old-style", I mean like the original B series, that give fully fleshed adventures, without (as Mike and I have discussed elsewhere) reams of "background novelization". Most sci-fi modules follow the Classic Traveller model, and leave (too*) much up to the GM.

DwD Studios did a nice modern-spy OSR White Lies, also recently.

Lots and lots of room left there.

*YMMV

Quote from: Tod13;1040591I agree (again). We only recently got a decent OSR sci-fi version. And there is a real dearth of old-style modules for sci-fi. By "old-style", I mean like the original B series, that give fully fleshed adventures, without (as Mike and I have discussed elsewhere) reams of "background novelization". Most sci-fi modules follow the Classic Traveller model, and leave (too*) much up to the GM.

Spot on! I am sure the old Traveller Double Adventure could get an SWN treatment. Probably a sacriledge to our good Traveller playing friends, but I would run Annica Nova or Across the Bright Face/Mission on Mithril "clone" with SWN or White Star in a heartbeat with my group that regularly plays Beyond the Wall.

Quote from: Tod13;1040591I agree (again). We only recently got a decent OSR sci-fi version. And there is a real dearth of old-style modules for sci-fi. By "old-style", I mean like the original B series, that give fully fleshed adventures, without (as Mike and I have discussed elsewhere) reams of "background novelization". Most sci-fi modules follow the Classic Traveller model, and leave (too*) much up to the GM.

This is extremely true! I've been looking for stuff to run with White Star and there is very little I can find other than some old Traveller adventures in White Dwarf.

Quote from: S'mon;1040601This is extremely true! I've been looking for stuff to run with White Star and there is very little I can find other than some old Traveller adventures in White Dwarf.

I've just taken to re-skinning BFRPG or older D&D modules into a steampunk-science-fantasy setting. I use the Traveller species and the "spaceship" became an "ethership". I'll usually use one of the mini-adventures from Creation's Edge and squirrel it away in the corner of the map. https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/553/Creations-Edge-Games/subcategory/1519_23955/SciFi (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/553/Creations-Edge-Games/subcategory/1519_23955/SciFi)

Quote from: JimLotFP;1040549I'm one of the people he thinks is "alt-right" (he's called me a cryptofascist), for as far as I can tell saying that assaulting people on the street for political beliefs is a bad thing to do, and that my criticism of Jordan Peterson doesn't reach the levels of total condemnation.

He did this with some DFers who poorly reviewed Deep Carbon Observatory too.  50 year-old lefty Bernie Bro DFers were surprised to learn they must be closet alt-right gamergaters because they questioned whether or not previous reviews/reviewers of that product were free of bias.

https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1835192#p1835192

Quote from: Melan;1040574Great imagination, excellent reviews and posts, but he was part of a particular set on G+ who couldn't accept the legitimacy or even existence of politics other than a narrow far-left vanguardism.

I find this ironic when I encounter this given the wealth of material that is open content in use by the OSR along with it being attached with the condition that anything derived from that material also has to be open content. Especially given that even after a decade there still isn't a dominant company or a small group of dominant companies.

Quote from: Tod13;1040610I've just taken to re-skinning BFRPG or older D&D modules into a steampunk-science-fantasy setting. I use the Traveller species and the "spaceship" became an "ethership". I'll usually use one of the mini-adventures from Creation's Edge and squirrel it away in the corner of the map. https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/553/Creations-Edge-Games/subcategory/1519_23955/SciFi (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/553/Creations-Edge-Games/subcategory/1519_23955/SciFi)

Thanks for link!

Quote from: Tod13;1040591And there is a real dearth of old-style modules for sci-fi. By "old-style", I mean like the original B series, that give fully fleshed adventures, without (as Mike and I have discussed elsewhere) reams of "background novelization". Most sci-fi modules follow the Classic Traveller model, and leave (too*) much up to the GM.

*YMMV

Quote from: S'mon;1040601This is extremely true! I've been looking for stuff to run with White Star and there is very little I can find other than some old Traveller adventures in White Dwarf.

Take a look at The Expanding Frontier (http://expandingfrontier.com/).  It's a blog and eventual RPG product line by Tom Stephens.  The idea is that there are a vast number of resources available online for fantasy tabletop RPGs, not so much for science-fiction RPGs. As such, Mr. Stephens will create resources for science-fiction tabletop RPGs (such as maps, ships, adventures, etc.) that are system agnostic. If stats are needed, Star Frontiers stats will be given since that is the RPG that he's most familiar with, but everything should be usable with just about any science-fiction RPG.

Nothing is out at the moment, but there are two new adventures and a starship technical manual in the works already.

Quote from: JimLotFP;1040549I'm one of the people he thinks is "alt-right" (he's called me a cryptofascist), for as far as I can tell saying that assaulting people on the street for political beliefs is a bad thing to do,

NAUGHTY NAZI!

Quote from: EOTB;104061250 year-old lefty Bernie Bro DFers

MOST DEFINITELY NAZIS!

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1040547Agreed. I see no sign of "peak OSR".

ONLY A NAZI WOULD SAY THAT!!!  

OMG, it's all true. This forum is nothing but Nazis!!!

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1040547No. I cannot agree with the "OSR ain't what it used to be".

It has changed. There is little focus on "founder analysis" and seeking deeper research into the decision making that created the early games.

I know that focus wasn't for everyone, but I enjoyed much of what was rediscovered and discussed. We're probably all done...except for Gronan's damn book!! :D

Also, there isn't fanfare for new retro-clones...even though they pop up in various corners of DriveThru and other places. Instead, more attention is given to "new games in the retro mindset" and these are increasingly becoming less directly compatible with TSR D&D. And that's NOT a problem. The DIY aesthetic of the OSR exhorts us to take random bits from any product and graft them as we see fit to whatever we are running.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1040598Spot on! I am sure the old Traveller Double Adventure could get an SWN treatment. Probably a sacriledge to our good Traveller playing friends, but I would run Annica Nova or Across the Bright Face/Mission on Mithril "clone" with SWN or White Star in a heartbeat with my group that regularly plays Beyond the Wall.

I'm a huge CT fan and I've run SWN with Annic Nova. But I run Annic Nova as Event Horizon.

I do feel bad that Dungeon of Signs is going away, especially over a political controversy.

I personally believe that real-world politics of any kind is poison to gaming and any other hobby. But it's his blog and if he wants to withdraw from gaming or the OSR, that's his choice and we should respect that instead of bickering over the reasons why.

I do hope he returns to gaming and the OSR one day.

But until then, let's look on the bright side....

When one blog dies, another one is born....

https://docsammyrpg.blogspot.com

(Okay, I'll stop the shameless self-promotion now)

Seriously though, if we're going to bicker about politics, can we please take it over to Pundit's personal sub-forum?

I motion that this thread be moved to Pundency for the time being.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1040651I'm a huge CT fan and I've run SWN with Annic Nova. But I run Annic Nova as Event Horizon.

I am pretty envious right now, actually.:cool: Wow. How did it run?

I don't think the creative aspect of the OSR is petering out - but I feel like the ideological bent is.

And largely that's because, at least to a large degree, the OSR won. Major concepts like sandboxes and hex crawling are back in the gaming vocabulary.  They're no longer seen as strange nostalgic concepts (well not to the open-minded anyway).  Other aspects of the OSR seem to be a tougher sell (In my experience modern players tend to want more character options - "Better than any man" is an awesome adventure - but it's an easier sell with Shadow of a Demon Lord, than Lamentations of the Flame Princess) - which probably means that the OSR can't really grow more than it has to this point either.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1040656I motion that this thread be moved to Pundency for the time being.

I should have placed the thread in the Gaming News forum. My bad.

To be fair to people here, the lad did bring politics into his reasons for leaving.

But yeah, I agree with you about how sad it is.

OTOH Congratulations on the new blog!

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1040676I am pretty envious right now, actually.:cool: Wow. How did it run?

Awesome!

According to the module text, Annic Nova has a history of appearing in systems, then mysteriously disappearing.

And I'm a huge fan of space horror.

So...Vargr ghosts, phasing in and out of reality, regressing into mutated wolf forms, psychic emanations, all sorts of crazy haunted house stuff.

I chose SWN because the classes (Psychics, Warriors, Experts) made for a good D&D in spaaaace crew.

Quote from: TJS;1040677I don't think the creative aspect of the OSR is petering out - but I feel like the ideological bent is.

That's good news! The best part of the OSR is the creativity and camaraderie.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1040881Awesome!

According to the module text, Annic Nova has a history of appearing in systems, then mysteriously disappearing.

And I'm a huge fan of space horror.

So...Vargr ghosts, phasing in and out of reality, regressing into mutated wolf forms, psychic emanations, all sorts of crazy haunted house stuff.

I chose SWN because the classes (Psychics, Warriors, Experts) made for a good D&D in spaaaace crew.

That sounds really fun. I love the horror angle. I am inspired to to do something similar but switch Event Horizon for Mythos. Not very original, I know, but the idea would include a Hound of Tindalos stalking the PCs Alien style and the last crew having been helped by Mi-Go into brain cylinders.

I'm always good for Mythos in spaaaace! :D

BTW, Sine Nomine's Silent Legions combines with SWN very nicely.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1040881That's good news! The best part of the OSR is the creativity and camaraderie.

I'm not aware of the OSR ever having had an ideological bent, just 'make good stuff'. I guess there have been SJW attacks 'Why does the OSR hate women?' - but at no point has the OSR as a movement been noticeably anti-SJW, or any other ideology, that I can see. Various OSR creators have their own political & ideological beliefs, and being about a renaissance based on old stuff OSR folks tend to trend maybe a bit less left wing than where the mainstream RPG industry is currently, but I cannot discern any common OSR ideology.

Quote from: S'mon;1040905I'm not aware of the OSR ever having had an ideological bent, just 'make good stuff'. I guess there have been SJW attacks 'Why does the OSR hate women?' - but at no point has the OSR as a movement been noticeably anti-SJW, or any other ideology, that I can see. Various OSR creators have their own political & ideological beliefs, and being about a renaissance based on old stuff OSR folks tend to trend maybe a bit less left wing than where the mainstream RPG industry is currently, but I cannot discern any common OSR ideology.

I wasn't talking about politics.  Ideology is not restricted to the political sphere but occurs everywhere in hobbies, in the workplace (especially in the workplace).  It's not always a bad thing either, sometimes it's necessary.

For a long time many members of the OSR were concerned with defining exactly what Old School means, what is and isn't old school and with defending Old School's right to exist from those who claim the rules are objectively bad and that the only reason to play older editions is nostalgia.  It feels to me like this is no longer all that necessary.

I suspect over time people will continue doing what they're doing but they'll worry less and less about whether it's OSR as some kind of distinct movement within gaming, and just worry about making the kind of thing they like and is useful to them.

Quote from: TJS;1040914I wasn't talking about politics.  Ideology is not restricted to the political sphere but occurs everywhere in hobbies, in the workplace (especially in the workplace).  It's not always a bad thing either, sometimes it's necessary.

For a long time many members of the OSR were concerned with defining exactly what Old School means, what is and isn't old school and with defending Old School's right to exist from those who claim the rules are objectively bad and that the only reason to play older editions is nostalgia.  It feels to me like this is no longer all that necessary.

I suspect over time people will continue doing what they're doing but they'll worry less and less about whether it's OSR as some kind of distinct movement within gaming, and just worry about making the kind of thing they like and is useful to them.

Thanks for the clarification- makes sense.

Quote from: S'mon;1040905I'm not aware of the OSR ever having had an ideological bent, just 'make good stuff'. I guess there have been SJW attacks 'Why does the OSR hate women?' - but at no point has the OSR as a movement been noticeably anti-SJW, or any other ideology, that I can see. Various OSR creators have their own political & ideological beliefs, and being about a renaissance based on old stuff OSR folks tend to trend maybe a bit less left wing than where the mainstream RPG industry is currently, but I cannot discern any common OSR ideology.

The OSR, as a group, had no ideology, it was all about getting people to play games. The internet itself is not even necessary. How do I know? As it began as the OSR I was in on the conference calls, Raggi was too.

Everyone making a political statement or engaging in social justice in the OSR is not getting the point. Just play games. Set your differences aside for a few hours and tell a story together. I do this in public every week with a diverse group. It works. It is easy. Just dive in, play the games, have fun.

The OSR was always terrible at hiveminding (Thank Crom!). The AD&D Revivalists vs. the RetroCloners vs. the OSR Expanders sniped at each other, but after a decade, each division has its own community with a certain amount of crossover. AKA, the hardcore AD&D via TSR crowd are continuing their merry way with their TSR products, some who use the plethora of compatible resources. Many retrocloners just play retroclones, using both TSR and OSR products. And the OSR Expanders are wandering their own way, with variable levels of direct compatibility.

The OSR future is good.

The Revivalists will continue reviving. The WotC TSR imprints exist, as well as PDFs, plus eBay is full of cheap old books.

The Retrocloners are happy junkspanking monkeys with a great cheap products everywhichway. It is truly an embarrassment of riches!

The OSR Expanders will continue expanding, taking old school ideas in new and different directions.

And 5e is helping the OSR publishers, many who are doing releases of the same books in multiple systems (Troll Lord, Frog God, etc).

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;1040520The OSR seems to me to be winding down and sputtering out as a creative movement. I guess it was inevitably going to happen sooner or later.

I don't agree. In the last year the OSR products that have come out have been more creative and innovative than ever.

So as not to hijack this thread, I've posted my response to his "goodbye forever" bullshit in another thread (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?39050-There-s-no-Alt-Right-quot-OSR-Just-Leftists-Calling-Everyone-Nazis).

Of course, you could argue that rules reflect politics.
 
Take the 3d6 in order people. They are essentially saying "No one is a hero, everyone is average". As opposed to the 4d6 drop one (or other even more generous methods in AD&D), which implies some people are just better than others. A lot better. Or the more modern point buy method, where everyone is equally above average but no one truly exceptional.

Or saving throws. The old school method of having different saving throws based on your sort training - some people are good at avoiding some dangers, worse at others. Then you have the single saving throw which says people are all the same, no one is really better than one another.. And the more modern, ability score method, which essentially says training doesn't matter, it's your innate abilities.

You do a much deeper analysis on classes. Some people characters that have no special powers or skills. Others go on about balance. ETc.  

All of them arguably display a different philosophy on life. Do you view characters as heroes who are larger than life, do amazing deeds and change the world? Schlubs that do some stuff and die right away? Perfectly balanced members of a team where everyone is an equal participant?

Quote from: JeremyR;1041064Of course, you could argue that rules reflect politics.

We could, but we'd first need to hit the bong really hard about a dozen times.

Quote from: JeremyR;1041064Take the 3d6 in order people. They are essentially saying "No one is a hero, everyone is average".

lol, quite to the contrary. What we are saying is: "You make the best out of your lot in life. Life is not fair. There will always be someone who is better than you, you whimp. Quit the whinging and play the fucking game."

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1041156lol, quite to the contrary. What we are saying is: "You make the best out of your lot in life. Life is not fair. There will always be someone who is better than you, you whimp. Quit the whinging and play the fucking game."

Yes, that's a lot closer to it.