Following #4 of Kyle's Forum Addict's Manifesto

:http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=116170#post116170

I'm starting a thread about what the Pundit wrote over at jdrakeh's thread :

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6624

QuotePundit wrote:
Most people who I know of that play D&D (never mind D20!) have run pretty sophisticated RPG campaigns, or at least campaigns that were absolutely in no way less sophisticated than your average "Other" RPG. That's why I utterly reject the idea that people playing Runequest or D6 or Exalted or Forge Game #265, or anything else are actually playing "more sophisticated" games, and D&D are only dungeon crawls.

Now I agree with this. Most times when folks talk about D&D and I'm  also talking about it's fans here, it's always about the awesomeness of the frigging Dungeon Crawl. Now I have no doubt that some find that thoroughly enjoyable, but I for one never really cared for it that much.

But this did not mean I did not like D&D. I've gone through phases where I thought D&D was about "high adventure" to low down "backstabbing" honor amongst thieves exploits to everything in between. And you know what, D&D is about all that stuff. Political games, running empires...but yet I constantly see folks who love or hate the game, talk about it in terms of the old dungeon crawl. It pisses me off.

And like the Pundit says, back in the day, when you read Dragon and some of the other magazines when folks talk about their games, it was always more than just "crawls". If sophisticated means stuff like investigation, politics, cultural & social issues all that role playing stuff, D&D could be and was about all this stuff. Now sure Dungeon mag put out loads of "crawls" and I'm sure they were (are) succesful, but the fact is D&D has always been more than just about a group of folks mucking about underground.

Regards,
David R

In the spirit of the Manifesto, I'll reply to this in 10 posts time, unless someone else has stolen my thunder meantime

I like dungeons.

That said, my own D&D campaign (which wrapped up after about a year and a half last night) ranged over three continents, several islands, 4 of the outer planes, 3 "demi-planes", aboard an airship, under the sea, inside a teeming refugee camp, and through no less than 5 cities. Also, several "dungeons"-- each one of which was awesome. I'd estimate there were around 12 or 13 dungeons here. And by that I mean-- there were some tombs and a sewer complex, and a couple of extraplanar mazes. There were three cave complexes.  There was a series of secret passages in a palace at one point. And really, there's no way I could remmeber all of the stuff that goes on, really.

It involved a massive flood, the rebirth of one deity and the death of another, a race of alien fugitives in exile, a queen who was assassinated, a ghostly group of royals, the mummified head of an ancient herald, and an honest-to-goodness tarrasque. Also goblins from several tribes made appearances early on during the campaign; each one of which worshipped it's own totem animal: the wolf tribe, the weasel tribe, the kookaburra tribe, and the eel tribe. There were yugoloths, flying reapers, and creatures made up entirely of eyeballs. There was a dread wraith who for a while stalked the characters and ambushed them at every opportunity, there was an entire tribe of dracotaurs ruled by a red dragon high in the mountains. There was the complete destruction of a gnomish town at one point. There was a sphinx that made people answer deadly riddles, and a lonely gnome monk called the astronomer who lived in a tower. There was an exiled genie who enslaved an entire tribe of merfolk. There was a shipwreck, a group of rivals, and no less than three royal balls (one of which was a masquerade) that the characters attended during their time. There was a megaladon- a monster shark nearly 60' long, that I actually had to create a paper-cutout for so we could get a sense of the scale compared to the miniatures. (It swallowed a character whole.) There were curses, shrines, and a very bad holiday called "dark day". There was a rescue aboard a ruined ship that had been frozen into a massive ice-ball. And there was a series of aerial battles that led to the PCs owning their airship, having seized it from a group of Mindflayer spelljammers.

...

Lots of stuff, really.

There was more than this stuff going on, and it kept 4 people coming back (including one player who lives about an hour away) every week for over a year.

We wrapped up the campaign last night, but yeah, I'd say it was about high adventure.

Incidentally, most of the adventures you find in Dungeon are totally not dungeons.

But I still think dungeons are awesome.

Quote from: David RFollowing #4 of Kyle's Forum Addict's Manifesto

:http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=116170#post116170

I'm starting a thread about what the Pundit wrote over at jdrakeh's thread :

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6624



Now I agree with this. Most times when folks talk about D&D and I'm  also talking about it's fans here, it's always about the awesomeness of the frigging Dungeon Crawl. Now I have no doubt that some find that thoroughly enjoyable, but I for one never really cared for it that much.

But this did not mean I did not like D&D. I've gone through phases where I thought D&D was about "high adventure" to low down "backstabbing" honor amongst thieves exploits to everything in between. And you know what, D&D is about all that stuff. Political games, running empires...but yet I constantly see folks who love or hate the game, talk about it in terms of the old dungeon crawl. It pisses me off.

And like the Pundit says, back in the day, when you read Dragon and some of the other magazines when folks talk about their games, it was always more than just "crawls". If sophisticated means stuff like investigation, politics, cultural & social issues all that role playing stuff, D&D could be and was about all this stuff. Now sure Dungeon mag put out loads of "crawls" and I'm sure they were (are) succesful, but the fact is D&D has always been more than just about a group of folks mucking about underground.

Regards,
David R

I ran an OD&D/AD&D 1E/AD&D 2E campaign that spanned 20 years of real time. During that time I think I had 5 dungeons - granted, one was a mega-dungeon, an enormous tesseract - and mostly dealt with politics, religion, exploration, and the like. So, yeah.

-clash

There are two separate issues here.  What is D&D best at supporting and what do people use it for.

D&D has always accounted for the vast majority of fantasy roleplaying so people used it for whatever fantasy (and other genre) games they wanted to run.  This doesn't mean the rules were especially suited for it - if your only tool is a butter knife, you use for lots of things.

AD&D pretty much always assumed that you'd do some wandering around the continent and once you've become powerful enough to affect world events, settle down and become a ruler of some sort.

If you look at what the rules focus on, it's not all dungeons all the time, but that is the main thrust. Most of the rules, spells, and equipment deal with either combat or dungeoneering.  They spend time dealing with opening doors (normal and secret) and light sources but not so much on other topics.  XP can be given for other reasons, but the rules mainly focus on killing, looting, and getting past traps (exact rules vary with edition).

AD&D is a fairly rules-light game (once you throw out the rules everyone ignored).  Winging it was encouraged so it was natural to wing it through non-dungeon situations. D20 is a rules-moderate game.  D20 adds more rules for social situations but the thrust of the rules is dungeonish situations.  

This is somewhat understandable, due to pragmatics as well as the history of the game.  A dungeon is a relatively restricted, defined environment so it's simpler to write rules for it that will apply to varying degrees for other situations.  It's impossible to write detailed rules for every thing that could happen in any world.  It's not surprising that the rules give only a few guidelines and expect some winging it.

Actually, the issue is Pundit's statement:

"Most people who I know of that play D&D (never mind D20!) have run pretty sophisticated RPG campaigns, or at least campaigns that were absolutely in no way less sophisticated than your average "Other" RPG. That's why I utterly reject the idea that people playing Runequest or D6 or Exalted or Forge Game #265, or anything else are actually playing "more sophisticated" games, and D&D are only dungeon crawls."

This I entirely agree with. It doesn't matter to this thread what D&D was best suited for, only what it was actually used for. I gave my anecdotal evidence already, and further state that every D&D campaign that I was aware of when I was playing D&D - i.e. pre-3.0 - was more or less like this. Most of the game was run out of the dungeon. YMMV, but that is my experience.

-clash

Added: And after reading Pundit's post completely, I'd like to add that my 20 year campaign was also multi-generational, covering about 80 years of game time.

Quote from: David RNow I agree with this. Most times when folks talk about D&D and I'm  also talking about it's fans here, it's always about the awesomeness of the frigging Dungeon Crawl. Now I have no doubt that some find that thoroughly enjoyable, but I for one never really cared for it that much.

See, this I'm fine with as far as it goes.  It's objectively true that while dungeons are common, they aren't the whole of D&D adventuring.  And it's perfectly reasonable for you to not like them -- that's a matter of taste.  However, I've got issue with what you quoted -

Quote from: PunditMost people who I know of that play D&D (never mind D20!) have run pretty sophisticated RPG campaigns, or at least campaigns that were absolutely in no way less sophisticated than your average "Other" RPG. That's why I utterly reject the idea that people playing Runequest or D6 or Exalted or Forge Game #265, or anything else are actually playing "more sophisticated" games, and D&D are only dungeon crawls.

This implies that dungeons are inherently unsophisticated, and "defends" D&D by saying that people do stuff besides those "unsophisticated" dungeons.  So really, this is taking the presumed pissing on D&D-ers, and passing it off to piss on "dungeon crawlers" instead.  

That's bullshit.  

The idea of "my game is more sophisticated than yours" is always crap in the first place, even aside from the presumption that being above-ground makes your games more sophisticated.  Having a bunch of hoity-toity "sophisticated" shit in your game does not make you a better person, and doesn't necessarily make the game any more fun.  

Say I play chess for fun -- and someone comes along as says that it's "unsophisticated" compared to their political machinations.  I'm not going to try having political games where the Queen can try to influence the enemy bishops through religious dialogue or whatever.  I'm going to reject the claim in the first place.

Quote from: jhkimThis implies that dungeons are inherently unsophisticated, and "defends" D&D by saying that people do stuff besides those "unsophisticated" dungeons.  So really, this is taking the presumed pissing on D&D-ers, and passing it off to piss on "dungeon crawlers" instead.  

That's bullshit.  

The idea of "my game is more sophisticated than yours" is always crap in the first place, even aside from the presumption that being above-ground makes your games more sophisticated.  Having a bunch of hoity-toity "sophisticated" shit in your game does not make you a better person, and doesn't necessarily make the game any more fun.  

Say I play chess for fun -- and someone comes along as says that it's "unsophisticated" compared to their political machinations.  I'm not going to try having political games where the Queen can try to influence the enemy bishops through religious dialogue or whatever.  I'm going to reject the claim in the first place.

And your defense of D&D as dungeon crawl and ONLY dungeon crawl is actually backhanded patronizing. Its the brilliance of Forge Swinedom vs. old school WW-Swinedom. WW-swinedom pretended that D&D was only "hack n' slash" and condemned it.
Forge-Swinedom pretends that D&D is only "hack n' slash" and claims that its just great that it does that one thing really well, and stupid D&D players shouldn't get all "confused" trying to do anything else with D&D.  As if the game and its players were retarded idiot savants who were able to do complex math really well but couldn't help shitting their pants if left to their own devices.

Fuck that.

D&D can handle any type of RPG gaming there is. It does not have to ONLY do dungeon crawls, its not only "especially good" at that. Listen to what actual players of D&D have said. There's no thematic, no setting element, nothing that has been done anywhere else in any RPG that can't be handled by D&D, and probably a few that D&D does that no one else does.

I have no fucking problem with the Dungeon Crawl, I love a good dungeon crawl so much that I designed a fucking game around it; what I do have a problem with is pretentious Forge-assholes coming along and telling us "Ohh you do a good dungeon crawl" patting us on the head and saying "good boy" and then expecting to believe that its a compliment and not a patronizing backhanded fucking INSULT.

RPGPundit

I call foul - 15 yard penatly on Pundit for illegal use of Swine-Talk.

Because...see...I think you're totally reading something into Mr. Kim's take that he didn't say.  I didn't see him say Dungeon Crawls were the only thing D&D could do.  In fact, he states:

Quote from: jhkimIt's objectively true that while dungeons are common, they aren't the whole of D&D adventuring.

And he didn't claim D&D, in any mode, was unsophisticated. In fact, he defends both D&D and dungeons, in a way, by saying:

Quote from: jhkimThis implies that dungeons are inherently unsophisticated, and "defends" D&D by saying that people do stuff besides those "unsophisticated" dungeons. So really, this is taking the presumed pissing on D&D-ers, and passing it off to piss on "dungeon crawlers" instead.

That's bullshit.

And finally, we have:

Quote from: jhkimThe idea of "my game is more sophisticated than yours" is always crap in the first place, even aside from the presumption that being above-ground makes your games more sophisticated. Having a bunch of hoity-toity "sophisticated" shit in your game does not make you a better person, and doesn't necessarily make the game any more fun.

I mean, a few more curses and colloquial references to the female anatomy, and it could be a Pundit rant.

Quote from: RPGPunditAnd your defense of D&D as dungeon crawl and ONLY dungeon crawl is actually backhanded patronizing. Its the brilliance of Forge Swinedom vs. old school WW-Swinedom. WW-swinedom pretended that D&D was only "hack n' slash" and condemned it.

Dude, at least try to read what I write.  

I explicitly said that D&D does more than dungeon crawls.  It's the first thing I said.

Mr. Kim - would you like to press charges?  I mean, I know it's only a minor offense and this character has connections in high places - but it would make a point.

Quote from: jhkimDude, at least try to read what I write.  

I explicitly said that D&D does more than dungeon crawls.  It's the first thing I said.

Yes, you also attempted to claim that I'm not allowed to say that D&D is capable of play other than Dungeon Crawls, by using the ridiculous argument that the second I do I'm somehow devaluing Dungeon Crawls.

So tell me, how exactly does that square up with your statement that D&D is "more"?  Do you admit that D&D can be used, without any un-naturalness, in no different way than any other fucking RPG, to play just about any kind of theme, social story, political story, journey of discovery, in other words every single fucking type of game that any other RPG does?

Because I'm sorry, dude, but given how many Theory-people have stated that D&D is basically only "made for" dungeon crawling and can't do anything else really well, that play of any other kind with D&D is either "incoherent" or broken, you're going to have to clarify your support for D&D as a full-blown RPG capable of running all kinds of stuff besides Dungeon Crawls just as well as other RPGs do. If indeed you really support that.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYes, you also attempted to claim that I'm not allowed to say that D&D is capable of play other than Dungeon Crawls, by using the ridiculous argument that the second I do I'm somehow devaluing Dungeon Crawls.

So tell me, how exactly does that square up with your statement that D&D is "more"?  Do you admit that D&D can be used, without any un-naturalness, in no different way than any other fucking RPG, to play just about any kind of theme, social story, political story, journey of discovery, in other words every single fucking type of game that any other RPG does?

Because I'm sorry, dude, but given how many Theory-people have stated that D&D is basically only "made for" dungeon crawling and can't do anything else really well, that play of any other kind with D&D is either "incoherent" or broken, you're going to have to clarify your support for D&D as a full-blown RPG capable of running all kinds of stuff besides Dungeon Crawls just as well as other RPGs do. If indeed you really support that.

RPGPundit

This is where someone with the capability to bitch smack you into another forum would be handy.

James J, thanks for moderating this conversation.

Pundit, I don't see anything wrong with what John Kim is saying.

Just to be clear, I don't want to get into this whole "swine" issue, but old batty ...I mean clash said it best here :

QuoteIt doesn't matter to this thread what D&D was best suited for, only what it was actually used for.

This whole concept of "sophisticated" (however one defines it) roleplaying did not start with RQ or any other game. What I was trying to get at is that D&D as played always allowed for more complexity and nuance (eg: investigation,politics, social issues, religion etc) than those who said it was only for or gave the impression that it was only suited for dungeon crawls.

Note: I'm not saying that "crawls" are inherently inferior to other types of games, rather that D&D supports other types of play/games....and more folks should talk about them.

Regards,
David R

David R: That was exactly my point. Kim then turned around and tried to claim that in making my point, I was denigrating dungeon crawls.  This is something I've seen before, usually by people who want to argue D&D is "meant" for Dungeon Crawls, and other supposedly more "high concept" styles of play are meant to be handled only by other games.

RPGPundit