Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1022306What do you expect from something Gary yanked out of a bag of plastic toy monsters, took one look at the color, and said "Hey, look, it's a rust monster!  When it hits you your armor rusts."

And it took less time than it took me to type.

He yanked it out of his ass on the spur of the moment.

That's often the best way of coming up with creatures. I did that once in a Star Wars game when characters were crawling through the ventilation system and I made a joke about how air vents are always so spotless and dust free. A minute later, they were being chased by vent cleaning droids that looked like giant rotating scrub brushes. I pulled out a wire brush drill attachment to use as a mini.

The Rust Monster and Disenchanter. Nothing says fun killer like rusting and removing magic from weapons. What bothers me is some designers try to give bullshit excuses for players not outright slaughtering either, both. That's why I like the 13th Age designers. Under rust Monster in their bestiary they don't write much assuming quite correctly players will kill off both.

Quote from: sureshot;1022380What bothers me is some designers try to give bullshit excuses for players not outright slaughtering either, both.

Oh god, like what?  Are they endangered and you get fined for poaching?

Quote from: Manic Modron;1022384Oh god, like what?  Are they endangered and you get fined for poaching?

They usually "they can be useful, heroes don't that, attacking a defenseless animal. etc" In the Misfit Monsters Redeemed book from Paizo the devs try to make a case for not outright killing off a Disenchanter. Yeah no thanks fuck that.

Oh, waa waa waa.  Your sword rusted.  Boo hoo.

So go find another, better one.

I fucking hate players who piss themselves and shit their panties about "fuck you monsters."  If you want the game to be on easy mode, go play My Little Pony.

Rust monsters, disenchanters, chameleon monsters, invisible monsters, level draining monsters.... bring 'em on!

The greater danger, the greater the reward in victory.

"He either fears his fate too much,
Or his desserts are small,
Who dares not put it to the touch,
To win or lose it all!"

James Graham, 5th Earl of Montrose
1612 to 1650
Royalist General during the English Civil War

The old fucknuts who are always posting their "we gamed up hill both ways... in the snow". Worst monsters ever.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1022407The old fucknuts who are always posting their "we gamed up hill both ways... in the snow". Worst monsters ever.

*pisses in your boot*

Either ALL monsters are "fuck you" monsters, or none are.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1022161I can't seem to find these in any monster manual...

They're not supposed to be in the Monster Manual -DMG either.

Quote from: sureshot;1022380The Rust Monster and Disenchanter. Nothing says fun killer like rusting and removing magic from weapons. What bothers me is some designers try to give bullshit excuses for players not outright slaughtering either, both. That's why I like the 13th Age designers. Under rust Monster in their bestiary they don't write much assuming quite correctly players will kill off both.

And you know the only class that it really screws over?  The one that relies on gear.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1022398Oh, waa waa waa.  Your sword rusted.  Boo hoo.

So go find another, better one.

How, exactly?  Do DM's magically give a new weapon, the next encounter?  As a consolation prize.  Because if your Fighter type is without any armour or weapons, you're down one combatant.  Unless you're saying that the Fighter doesn't actually matter in D&D, then again, you do make a good case on that.

Out of honest curiousity:  How much did unarmed damage do in earlier editions?  I forget what AD&D 2e was, I THINK it was a d4, but I honestly don't remember.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1022398I fucking hate players who piss themselves and shit their panties about "fuck you monsters."  If you want the game to be on easy mode, go play My Little Pony.

And here I thought that Walker was the 'Hardest of The Hardcore' gamers, but you definitely have him beat.  I thought RPG's was about having fun with friends, but apparently there's only one true way and man, I've been doing it wrong for over 30 years.  I've been having BadWrongFun all this time.  Damn.  I guess I better stop playing RPGs...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1022398Rust monsters, disenchanters, chameleon monsters, invisible monsters, level draining monsters.... bring 'em on!

Do you have any idea how this makes you look to some of us?  It's not a positive thing.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1022398The greater danger, the greater the reward in victory.

You kill the rust monster, you get...  a club.  Because it's not metal.  That's pretty much it, everything else has metal on it, leather armour has metal buckles, belts do to, most boots, rings, amulets, axe heads...  Oh wait, potions, assuming the setting has glass bottles.

But it's THE GREATEST REWARD EVAR!

Are you for real?  Please tell me this is another of your lame jokes.  Please.

"Victory" is not a single encounter.  Okay, you lost your sword and armor.  Now instead of you helping guard your mates, your mates have to cover you.  Your whole plan and march order is disrupted.

Yeah, that's cool.  The fun of a game is when your plan goes to gooey shit and you have to improvise it all, repairing a duotronic computer circuit with stone knives and bearskins.

If you play well, you'll make it back alive.  If you got ANY loot on your adventure, you can replace your weapon and armor, at least with ordinary stuff.  Was it magic?  Well, that sucks.  But if there was one magic sword out there, are there more?  What level are you?  Do you have enough money to hire a sage?

I'm totally serious.  The fun begins when things stop going as planned.  Just like I said someplace about wargaming -- "it's no fun playing against somebody who's no good."  A 57mm US antitank gun won't knock out a Tiger 1 from the front.  But I set up my defense so I got the tiger at about 300 yards right in the ass, and the engine obligingly blew up as the Germans scurried around frantically trying to figure out where the hell I was.

Succeeding against difficult odds is something I find a lot of fun.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1022412*pisses in your boot*

Could be enlarged prostate. May want to get it checked out.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1022432Could be enlarged prostate. May want to get it checked out.

My doctor's keeping an eye on it.  Thanks for your concern.  Fortunately my PSA level is low and stable.

See, I don't mind monsters that are specifically set up to target characters.  That is fine.  Rust monsters (oxidation beasts, if you are looking for the Reaper mini)?  I'm alright with them.  It takes some extra tactics to work around the things and they are more scary to some characters than others, but otherwise, sure.  Disenchanters?  Okay, sure.  It is a high magic sort of place, something is going to want to eat the magic.  

The monsters I'm talking about are more ... I don't know... "meta" in their fuck-you-ness.  The ear grubs that do nothing except wait around in a door for somebody to listen to it.  The cloakers that just sit around on a hook and hope some passerby is cold enough to put one on.  The floating sporeballs that look so exactly like beholders that PCs are bound to shoot first and Negate Poison later.  The creatures who have an ecological niche so narrow that you couldn't shove a slip of paper through it.

Those are the monsters that cross a line in my imagination between "gonzo but believable world" right on over to "Now you are just jerking off on the graph paper."

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1022407The old fucknuts who are always posting their "we gamed up hill both ways... in the snow". Worst monsters ever.

Gronan has stated that he is actively channeling the grumpier interpretations of Dennis the Menace's Mr. Wilson as a character guide for his online interactions. I don't really take offense or guffaw too much on it, since it is so clearly an affectation.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1022426"Rust monsters, disenchanters, chameleon monsters, invisible monsters, level draining monsters.... bring 'em on!"

Do you have any idea how this makes you look to some of us?  It's not a positive thing.

I don't think the rest of us have a problem with that particular sentence. If Gronan wants to be all 'bring 'em on!' over challenges, let him. Overcoming difficult challenges is its' own reward for many people. That's his prerogative.

I will agree (more with Ras Algethi) on the point that he is putting forth the same old bluster ("we gamed up hill both ways... in the snow"is a pretty convenient shorthand) that generally implies that back in the good old glory days gamers gamed harder, stronger, better, more intelligently, and with less whining, etc. And that I just plain call BS. I've met several old old old school gamers--came to TTRPGs from wargaming, started with D&D with the LBBs, etc., etc., etc. who are without a doubt just as much whinny, thin-skinned, hissy-fit-throwing poor losers and everything else as the grognards routinely complain about 'the kids today' doing. There are good, intelligent, competent, mature gamers from every era, and who enjoy every game/gaming style. There's no fast-track to excellence, including date-of-birth or preferred game. It's unfortunate that these pissing contest threads keep coming up pretending otherwise, but that seems to be the nature of online discussions.  

Quote from: Manic Modron;1022440See, I don't mind monsters that are specifically set up to target characters.  That is fine.  Rust monsters (oxidation beasts, if you are looking for the Reaper mini)?  I'm alright with them.  It takes some extra tactics to work around the things and they are more scary to some characters than others, but otherwise, sure.  Disenchanters?  Okay, sure.  It is a high magic sort of place, something is going to want to eat the magic.  

It's just another nuance, requiring another tactic. Reducing a parties' hit points all to 0 does a great job of depleting their equipment lists as well. Golems kill mages, rust monsters decimate fighters, undead kill everything (but less so if you have clerics),  ghouls have a hard time against parties full of elves but green dragons consider them appetizers. It's almost like it is a team activity.

QuoteThe monsters I'm talking about are more ... I don't know... "meta" in their fuck-you-ness.  The ear grubs that do nothing except wait around in a door for somebody to listen to it.  The cloakers that just sit around on a hook and hope some passerby is cold enough to put one on.  The floating sporeballs that look so exactly like beholders that PCs are bound to shoot first and Negate Poison later.  The creatures who have an ecological niche so narrow that you couldn't shove a slip of paper through it.

Those are the monsters that cross a line in my imagination between "gonzo but believable world" right on over to "Now you are just jerking off on the graph paper."

I go back and forth on this (although, 'things invented in the first decade of the game tend to be very gamist and entire monsters exist as a countermeasure to PC tactics' is... well it just is what it is. Expect it to be in the books and don't use said things if they break your verisimilitude. Coins also conveniently all weigh the same amount and dragons are color coded for your convenience). thieves listening at doors invites designers to invent Ear Seekers, which invites others to invent listening cones with mesh coverings and so on and so forth--in concept the idea is fine. I think it worked better before every player had read the monster manuals. If that arms race happens organically in your campaign, it works fine, I feel. If you come into it with "A is countered by B, but B is countered by C," it's easy to feel like, "yes, so all A's use C's every time because they know about B's, so what is the point to all this?" (and let's be clear, not be wrong). I generally prefer not to have Ear Seekers in my games, but have something, something to keep the players on their toes (preferably not as lethal as Ear Seekers, because death is actually less awesome than inconvenience most of the time).