Quote from: Chris24601 on July 06, 2021, 11:18:55 AM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 06, 2021, 09:50:17 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 02, 2021, 12:54:03 PM
PCs and important NPCs have 50 health and are staggered at less than 20 health, unconscious at 0 health. Minions and similar non-combat NPCs have 10 health and are incapacitated at 0 health. We always rules death depended on plot relevance, but you could easily set it at anywhere from -10 to -50 depending on how gritty you wanted the setting. Recovery and healing restored 10 points per bruise they'd normally recover.

Using the Aunt May test... The burglar rolls 1d20+5 for the shotgun damage and gets dead average 11+5 for 16 damage. Aunt May's -1 toughness means she takes 17 damage. As a non-combat NPC she falls incapacitated and is at -7 health... near death if you use the -10 and a second shot even with the crappiest possible damage roll would finish her off for certain; but by plot considerations she's probably in a coma clinging to life and waiting for Peter to make that deal with Mephisto to get better (yes, I'm still better about Brand New Day).

I like it.  The bookkeeping is minimal (and some bookkeeping is probably a goal to be honest), it makes lethal things more lethal, and it doesn't really change the rules much.  I might throw in a "lethal vs. bashing" type of damage thing, and/or -maybe- increase NPC hit points so that a burglar isn't likely to kill Aunt May in one punch. 

But recovery still feels wonky to me.

Admittedly, it's mostly geared for heroes and mooks, not necessarily bystanders. Heroes rapidly push past injuries that would cripple ordinary people for life all the time and it's meant to reflect that. That said, once you're below zero health/incapacitated you're pretty much out of the fight unless you have a power that changes things.

Default recovery in 2e is a DC 10 Constitution check after 1 minute of rest for non-lethal damage (i.e. bruises) or 1 hour rest for lethal damage (i.e. wounds) and the dying condition is it's own separate check with a with a basic success only maintaining your state and I believe needing to beat the margin by 10 (so DC 20) to end the dying condition on your own.

Aunt May needs an 11+ on her d20 after a minute to wake up from a thug cold-cocking her (non-lethal) and would need two more successful checks to stop being staggered. If shot she'd need an 11+ to not slide closer to death and couldn't score the needed 21+ to stop dying without medical intervention.

Powers can obviously change this dramatically. My Brick-style hero opted for regeneration over impervious toughness and spent a lot of points to be able to bounce back even from the dying condition (auto-stabilized then needed about 10 minutes to wake up unless someone coup de graced him while he was down). It felt more dramatic than just "everything below X caliber bounces off, everything X+1 does full damage."

I've spent a lot of time thinking about healing in 3ed.

You've made me realize I need to go back and look at how 2ed handled things more closely. 

(In other words: thanks!)

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 06, 2021, 10:18:47 AM
When M&M 3ed had a run of licensed DCU books released, one of the things they did was to make Batman a comparatively low PL character (8 IIRC), but gave him over 200 points to cover all of his skills, advantages, gear, etc.

I'm not saying it's a perfect balance (and, to be honest, perfect balance is a bit of a pipe dream anyway), but it clicked for me.  It was a way to balance highly powered characters (e.g. Superman) with diversely able characters (e.g. Batman).  It also seemed like a good way to balance Solars and Dragon-Blooded in Exalted (non-Exalts, and especially heroic mortals, would still get the shaft, but fudge 'em).

He was PL12, with 282 points.  The Flash: PL12, 214, Aquaman: PL 12, 216
GL Was PL14, Martian Manhunter PL14, Superman & Wonder Woman both at PL15.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 06, 2021, 02:02:25 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 06, 2021, 11:18:55 AM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 06, 2021, 09:50:17 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 02, 2021, 12:54:03 PM
PCs and important NPCs have 50 health and are staggered at less than 20 health, unconscious at 0 health. Minions and similar non-combat NPCs have 10 health and are incapacitated at 0 health. We always rules death depended on plot relevance, but you could easily set it at anywhere from -10 to -50 depending on how gritty you wanted the setting. Recovery and healing restored 10 points per bruise they'd normally recover.

Using the Aunt May test... The burglar rolls 1d20+5 for the shotgun damage and gets dead average 11+5 for 16 damage. Aunt May's -1 toughness means she takes 17 damage. As a non-combat NPC she falls incapacitated and is at -7 health... near death if you use the -10 and a second shot even with the crappiest possible damage roll would finish her off for certain; but by plot considerations she's probably in a coma clinging to life and waiting for Peter to make that deal with Mephisto to get better (yes, I'm still better about Brand New Day).

I like it.  The bookkeeping is minimal (and some bookkeeping is probably a goal to be honest), it makes lethal things more lethal, and it doesn't really change the rules much.  I might throw in a "lethal vs. bashing" type of damage thing, and/or -maybe- increase NPC hit points so that a burglar isn't likely to kill Aunt May in one punch. 

But recovery still feels wonky to me.

Admittedly, it's mostly geared for heroes and mooks, not necessarily bystanders. Heroes rapidly push past injuries that would cripple ordinary people for life all the time and it's meant to reflect that. That said, once you're below zero health/incapacitated you're pretty much out of the fight unless you have a power that changes things.

Default recovery in 2e is a DC 10 Constitution check after 1 minute of rest for non-lethal damage (i.e. bruises) or 1 hour rest for lethal damage (i.e. wounds) and the dying condition is it's own separate check with a with a basic success only maintaining your state and I believe needing to beat the margin by 10 (so DC 20) to end the dying condition on your own.

Aunt May needs an 11+ on her d20 after a minute to wake up from a thug cold-cocking her (non-lethal) and would need two more successful checks to stop being staggered. If shot she'd need an 11+ to not slide closer to death and couldn't score the needed 21+ to stop dying without medical intervention.

Powers can obviously change this dramatically. My Brick-style hero opted for regeneration over impervious toughness and spent a lot of points to be able to bounce back even from the dying condition (auto-stabilized then needed about 10 minutes to wake up unless someone coup de graced him while he was down). It felt more dramatic than just "everything below X caliber bounces off, everything X+1 does full damage."

I've spent a lot of time thinking about healing in 3ed.

You've made me realize I need to go back and look at how 2ed handled things more closely. 

(In other words: thanks!)

Honestly, I think my ideal M&M is probably 2e with the health rules I listed and some 3e based house rules...

Most notable would be replacing the myriad stun, sleep, mind-control, etc. powers with 3e's affliction power.

The second would be replacing the PL+5 limit on saves with 3e-based tradeoff (basically the total of Fort, Ref and Will cannot exceed 3x the PL of the campaign).

The third would be pruning back the skills to match 3e's and capping their total modifiers including attributes to 2x PL (so +20 in a PL 10 campaign).

The fourth would be to use 3e's pricing for multiple sidekicks/minions/summons as 2e's exponential approach gets stupid very quickly.

If I were to summarize the difference between editions for those unfamiliar; 2e is more like comic book world simulator... it's trying to get the physics right so comicbook-like events can happen. 3e is more a comic book story simulator... its trying to build a comic book narrative as it goes and is less concerned with making sure the world functions on its own.

Quote from: Tristan on July 06, 2021, 02:44:56 PM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 06, 2021, 10:18:47 AM
When M&M 3ed had a run of licensed DCU books released, one of the things they did was to make Batman a comparatively low PL character (8 IIRC), but gave him over 200 points to cover all of his skills, advantages, gear, etc.

I'm not saying it's a perfect balance (and, to be honest, perfect balance is a bit of a pipe dream anyway), but it clicked for me.  It was a way to balance highly powered characters (e.g. Superman) with diversely able characters (e.g. Batman).  It also seemed like a good way to balance Solars and Dragon-Blooded in Exalted (non-Exalts, and especially heroic mortals, would still get the shaft, but fudge 'em).

He was PL12, with 282 points.  The Flash: PL12, 214, Aquaman: PL 12, 216
GL Was PL14, Martian Manhunter PL14, Superman & Wonder Woman both at PL15.

Cool.  I was thinking the PLs for Batman and Superman were a lot lower. 

My point still stands though: M&M can make low PL characters and high PL characters work together. 

(In Exalted's case I'd just fix DBs starting at 8 with a hard cap of 10, Lunars/Sidereals at 10 with a hard cap of 12, and Solars start at 10 with no cap.  Then give everyone the same amount of points to build with.  Sure the Solar can be better at swordsmanship than the DB at start, but that's because the DB is forced to diversify his points into more things.  It may or may not get unbalanced when dealing with First Age Lunars and Sidereals with thousands of points, and a PL of 12 to spread them between.  But First Age NPCs get wonky regardless.)

I thought 5e was already a superhero game. You don't need new rules. Just give every character a cape.

I'm glad people who appreciate the genre and the system will have new options. When it rains it pours. I wonder how many will back both games.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 06, 2021, 04:15:51 PM

Cool.  I was thinking the PLs for Batman and Superman were a lot lower. 

My point still stands though: M&M can make low PL characters and high PL characters work together. 

(In Exalted's case I'd just fix DBs starting at 8 with a hard cap of 10, Lunars/Sidereals at 10 with a hard cap of 12, and Solars start at 10 with no cap.  Then give everyone the same amount of points to build with.  Sure the Solar can be better at swordsmanship than the DB at start, but that's because the DB is forced to diversify his points into more things.  It may or may not get unbalanced when dealing with First Age Lunars and Sidereals with thousands of points, and a PL of 12 to spread them between.  But First Age NPCs get wonky regardless.)

yeah, wasn't arguing the point, just clarifying the PL.  Further example, Green Arrow/Black Canary are PL: 10. Robin is PL: 8. 

As an aside, I don't quite get how Affliction is supposed to work in practice, however. The M&M 3e templates have the crime fighter with "Sleep Gas Pellets: Ranged Cloud Area Affliction 4 (Resisted by Fortitude; Daze, Stun, Asleep)" and the Mystic with Mind Control: Affliction 5 (Resisted by Will; Dazed, Compelled, Controlled), Cumulative, Perception Range.

It doesn't seem numbers that low are really effective at all. A standard Criminal has a Fort: 2 and a Will: 0.

Crime fighter Sleep Gas would have a DC of 14, (10+affliction), resisted by d20+ 2 (Fort). an average roll of what, 12? The Mystic has it a little better with DC of 15, vs average roll of 10. Both of those are still 1 degree of success (dazed). It's going to be rare for anyone to get a 3rd degree result it seems.  A crime Lord (PL:4) is -never- going to be Asleep or Controlled with their Fort & Will of 5. I suppose that's a feature, not a bug.

Not to mention that whole "greater than or equal to" on the degree chart is confusing

Quote from: Tristan on July 06, 2021, 05:07:58 PM
As an aside, I don't quite get how Affliction is supposed to work in practice, however. The M&M 3e templates have the crime fighter with "Sleep Gas Pellets: Ranged Cloud Area Affliction 4 (Resisted by Fortitude; Daze, Stun, Asleep)" and the Mystic with Mind Control: Affliction 5 (Resisted by Will; Dazed, Compelled, Controlled), Cumulative, Perception Range.

It doesn't seem numbers that low are really effective at all. A standard Criminal has a Fort: 2 and a Will: 0.

Crime fighter Sleep Gas would have a DC of 14, (10+affliction), resisted by d20+ 2 (Fort). an average roll of what, 12? The Mystic has it a little better with DC of 15, vs average roll of 10. Both of those are still 1 degree of success (dazed). It's going to be rare for anyone to get a 3rd degree result it seems.  A crime Lord (PL:4) is -never- going to be Asleep or Controlled with their Fort & Will of 5. I suppose that's a feature, not a bug.

Not to mention that whole "greater than or equal to" on the degree chart is confusing

The key on Mind Control is the "Cumulative" advantage. That means each time you score at least one degree of success you add another degree to any existing effect. So over the course of three saves each failing by only one degree, the first gets "dazed", the next fail would up it to stunned, and the third fail would up it to compelled.

The sleep gas as written is on the weak side, but its usually "equipment" rather than a power so its dirt cheap (about 1 equipment point as a utility belt item at 5 equipment points per power point) and opening with an AoE daze vs. weaker foes is useful and some might even fail by enough to be stunned or even fall asleep.

Frankly, I'd upgrade the sleep gas with Cumulative too so if they keep breathing it in its just a matter of time and there's nothing by the rules that says you can't (especially if you bought it as a power instead of equipment), but as an example of how to build a basic affliction power its pretty good.

Quote from: Lynn on July 01, 2021, 03:02:04 PM
Is anyone interested in these or have playtested either?  Here they are:

Capes & Crooks: A 5th Edition Superhero RPG - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/critacademy/capes-and-crooks-a-5th-edition-superhero-rpg

S5E: Superheroic Roleplaying for 5th Edition - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sigil/s5e-superheroic-roleplaying-for-5th-edition

I think it is interesting that nothing has really challenged Mutants & Masterminds for so long (as a d20 derived superhero game) and these both appear at the same time. I never did get into M&M, though I have both run and played in Champions / Hero and Icons RPGs. Anyone considering backing either?

We just made available a Playtest Packet to help share our concepts and get feedback from those who may be interested in a superhero 5e game. You can find it here. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/critacademy/capes-and-crooks-a-5th-edition-superhero-rpg/posts/3239945

Quote from: Tristan on July 06, 2021, 02:44:56 PM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 06, 2021, 10:18:47 AM
When M&M 3ed had a run of licensed DCU books released, one of the things they did was to make Batman a comparatively low PL character (8 IIRC), but gave him over 200 points to cover all of his skills, advantages, gear, etc.

I'm not saying it's a perfect balance (and, to be honest, perfect balance is a bit of a pipe dream anyway), but it clicked for me.  It was a way to balance highly powered characters (e.g. Superman) with diversely able characters (e.g. Batman).  It also seemed like a good way to balance Solars and Dragon-Blooded in Exalted (non-Exalts, and especially heroic mortals, would still get the shaft, but fudge 'em).

He was PL12, with 282 points.  The Flash: PL12, 214, Aquaman: PL 12, 216

In Capes and Crooks we added a mechanic that allows the player to decide, once they hit zero, if they want to go unconscious and wait for aid, or make a constitution save. If they succeed they stop at 1 hit point and can keep fighting, but suffer a level of exhaustion. On a failed save, they suffer a level of exaustion, but still fall unconcious. This sort of allows them a chance to keep on fighting.
GL Was PL14, Martian Manhunter PL14, Superman & Wonder Woman both at PL15.

Quote from: Tristan on July 06, 2021, 05:07:58 PM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 06, 2021, 04:15:51 PM

Cool.  I was thinking the PLs for Batman and Superman were a lot lower. 

My point still stands though: M&M can make low PL characters and high PL characters work together. 

(In Exalted's case I'd just fix DBs starting at 8 with a hard cap of 10, Lunars/Sidereals at 10 with a hard cap of 12, and Solars start at 10 with no cap.  Then give everyone the same amount of points to build with.  Sure the Solar can be better at swordsmanship than the DB at start, but that's because the DB is forced to diversify his points into more things.  It may or may not get unbalanced when dealing with First Age Lunars and Sidereals with thousands of points, and a PL of 12 to spread them between.  But First Age NPCs get wonky regardless.)

This is exactly what we thought! haha. Except he hated the lack of customization. So we did away with the subclass system. We replaced it with an al acarte style pick your own powers format.

yeah, wasn't arguing the point, just clarifying the PL.  Further example, Green Arrow/Black Canary are PL: 10. Robin is PL: 8. 

As an aside, I don't quite get how Affliction is supposed to work in practice, however. The M&M 3e templates have the crime fighter with "Sleep Gas Pellets: Ranged Cloud Area Affliction 4 (Resisted by Fortitude; Daze, Stun, Asleep)" and the Mystic with Mind Control: Affliction 5 (Resisted by Will; Dazed, Compelled, Controlled), Cumulative, Perception Range.

It doesn't seem numbers that low are really effective at all. A standard Criminal has a Fort: 2 and a Will: 0.

Crime fighter Sleep Gas would have a DC of 14, (10+affliction), resisted by d20+ 2 (Fort). an average roll of what, 12? The Mystic has it a little better with DC of 15, vs average roll of 10. Both of those are still 1 degree of success (dazed). It's going to be rare for anyone to get a 3rd degree result it seems.  A crime Lord (PL:4) is -never- going to be Asleep or Controlled with their Fort & Will of 5. I suppose that's a feature, not a bug.

Not to mention that whole "greater than or equal to" on the degree chart is confusing

Quote from: Spinachcat on July 02, 2021, 02:18:16 AM
The only RPG that I've seen do Batman and Superman on the same team in a playable way was Unisystem with Buffy the Vampire Slayer's idea of how Major and Minor Heroes worked differently powered but equally fun.

Somebody should steal that for a Supers game.

We are attempting this, with Capes & Crooks, and believe we may have done it a pretty well. Would love your feedback. You can pick up the playtest packet here. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/critacademy/capes-and-crooks-a-5th-edition-superhero-rpg/posts/3239945

Quote from: Spinachcat on July 02, 2021, 02:18:16 AM
The only RPG that I've seen do Batman and Superman on the same team in a playable way was Unisystem with Buffy the Vampire Slayer's idea of how Major and Minor Heroes worked differently powered but equally fun.

Somebody should steal that for a Supers game.

Ars Magica has a really good system for handling disparate power levels too.  Not a superhero RPG, of course, but the methods would probably be easy enough to transfer.

I've warmed up to the perspective that trying to model superhero powers out in precise detail isn't really ideal. There's just a ton of idiosyncratic powers and limitations that make it basically impossible to map out the possibility-space of comics heroes and not have major glaring holes in the system & math.

I think something like Fate or similar is probably in the right direction, although I wager that among comics fans there's probably a lot of desire for something crunchier than Fate. Hitting the sweet spot is tricky.

I also have a hard time seeing how Supers games mesh well with 5e level/advancement systems in general. The Superhero genre doesn't usually lean heavily on heroes advancing in skill beyond their origin stories. Superheroes gain powers and entire arcs happen with no change in explicit power-level, just facing and overcoming obstacles and challenges. Occasionally you'll get discrete power jumps but even that is usually like going up more than a few levels at a time (e.g. Spiderman -> Venom Suit Spiderman, Jean Grey -> Phoenix, etc)

Quote from: Zelen on July 08, 2021, 02:07:40 AM
I've warmed up to the perspective that trying to model superhero powers out in precise detail isn't really ideal. There's just a ton of idiosyncratic powers and limitations that make it basically impossible to map out the possibility-space of comics heroes and not have major glaring holes in the system & math.

I think something like Fate or similar is probably in the right direction, although I wager that among comics fans there's probably a lot of desire for something crunchier than Fate. Hitting the sweet spot is tricky.

I also have a hard time seeing how Supers games mesh well with 5e level/advancement systems in general. The Superhero genre doesn't usually lean heavily on heroes advancing in skill beyond their origin stories. Superheroes gain powers and entire arcs happen with no change in explicit power-level, just facing and overcoming obstacles and challenges. Occasionally you'll get discrete power jumps but even that is usually like going up more than a few levels at a time (e.g. Spiderman -> Venom Suit Spiderman, Jean Grey -> Phoenix, etc)

The so-many fiddly specific power uses are why I like M&M's power stunt system; burn a hero point and you can get a one-time alternate effect for a power (ex. Using your Super Strength to extinguish a fire; in-game a drain vs. fire effects; by doing the super-strength shockwave clap like Superman did in the animated series).

Also useful there is that in terms of advancement, the most common thing I see XP used for is to turn particularly useful one-off stunts into permanent alternate powers. My Superstrength hero, for example, picked up close to a dozen alternate effects for his strength; from knockdowns (foot stomp), AoE damage (using a girder or telephone pole to do an AoE sweep), entangles (bend a girder or rebar around a villain), AoE push/fire extinguisher (super strong breath), tunneling (super strength digging), subtle knockout (finger flick of unconsciousness) and even just some extra lifting strength (basically shifted all my strength that could do damage into strength only for lifting and dropped a flat-footed disadvantage on it... because sometimes holding up a building is more important than punching someone).

Each one of those was, at one point, a one-off power stunt, but I used my earned XP to pick them up as actual powers afterwards so if I needed them again, I wouldn't have to spend a hero point just to use them.

Basically, the best superhero games I've seen (outside of the City of Heroes MMO) don't use levels like D&D does (M&M uses them as benchmarks, but heroes don't generally gain higher levels outside of things like the aforementioned Phoenix type deal). Instead they're more Character Point advancement. So instead of big jumps of 15 points after a dozen sessions its 1 point after every session (with 1 point happening to be the cost of adding an alternate effect to a power).

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 08, 2021, 08:51:27 AM

Quote from: Zelen on July 08, 2021, 02:07:40 AM
I've warmed up to the perspective that trying to model superhero powers out in precise detail isn't really ideal. There's just a ton of idiosyncratic powers and limitations that make it basically impossible to map out the possibility-space of comics heroes and not have major glaring holes in the system & math.

I think something like Fate or similar is probably in the right direction, although I wager that among comics fans there's probably a lot of desire for something crunchier than Fate. Hitting the sweet spot is tricky.

(snip good stuff, and reminder that City of Heroes is still only on fan server life support)

That to me is why M&M beat out HERO system.  Sure you -can- turn everything in HERO into a VPP (as they called it in 5th), but it just seems against the spirit of the system.