Is anyone interested in these or have playtested either?  Here they are:

Capes & Crooks: A 5th Edition Superhero RPG - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/critacademy/capes-and-crooks-a-5th-edition-superhero-rpg

S5E: Superheroic Roleplaying for 5th Edition - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sigil/s5e-superheroic-roleplaying-for-5th-edition

I think it is interesting that nothing has really challenged Mutants & Masterminds for so long (as a d20 derived superhero game) and these both appear at the same time. I never did get into M&M, though I have both run and played in Champions / Hero and Icons RPGs. Anyone considering backing either?

Not really... 5e's level-based bounded accuracy isn't a great fit for the superhero genre.

Mutants & Masterminds avoid it despite being d20-based by changing it from Level (i.e. things you go through while gaining power) to Power Level (i.e. how powerful are the superheroes in the setting w. 7-8 being more street level, 10 being X-Men/Avengers, 12-14 being Justice League and 15+ being cosmic adventures) and the underlying system of +1/PL (which you can make a +2/+0 if you do trade-offs) allowing enough mechanical distinction that PL 5 can be comedy relief mooks with no chance against PL 15 Superman (yeah, Superman actually breaks the Justice League game power curve because have you actually seen the shows/comics/; 3/4 of every plot are "how do we keep Superman out of the action so he doesn't solve the whole thing in two panels?").

By contrast +1/4 levels in 5e just isn't going to put enough difference between a 1st level mook and a 20th level superhero to really capture the dumb mugger trying to shoot Superman. Its barely enough to deal with the disparity between the mook and Batman.

Quote from: Lynn on July 01, 2021, 03:02:04 PM
I think it is interesting that nothing has really challenged Mutants & Masterminds for so long (as a d20 derived superhero game) and these both appear at the same time. I never did get into M&M, though I have both run and played in Champions / Hero and Icons RPGs. Anyone considering backing either?

I used to be a huge HERO fan, until Ultimate Brick killed the game line for me ("to make super strength do everything it's supposed to, just turn it into a VPP... and then turn super intelligence into a VPP, and super dexterity, and so on.  Also, VPPs are a pain to set up.").   M&M3 does the same dang thing, but the system is just lighter in comparison to HERO, that I give it a pass.  I mean, both systems have a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses, I just find it easier to get back up when M&M knocks you down.

And I'd still take either over a 5ed derived system.

Why? 

Done properly, a crunchy* superhero  system should be effects-based.  You have a single standardized system for effects that actively supports players customizing and tweaking their powers, and then a cosmetic trapping is applied on top.  And while there might be a difference between turning into air and turning insubstantial from a "fluff" view, mechanically they might be almost identical.  Plus, most importantly, an effects-based system gives players a greater depth of power in creating their characters.  Want to play an alien ninja, or a robot wizard, or mutant warrior?  A good supers system allows for all of that and anything else your players can think up.

Exceptions-based systems meanwhile offer each and every possible power as it's own unique exception to the system.  So in M&M, you would have one power for energy blasts which is personalized by the player, while in Heroes Unlimited you have separate powers for shooting fire, shooting electricity, and shooting cold.  And exceptions-based systems make sure each power truly is an exception, which means you have to look up the rules for how Energy Blast: Fire is different from Energy Blast: Heat.  D&D is an effects based system, for what it's worth.  And based on the skimming I did, I suspect both of these games will be effects based as well.     

And like Chris24601 says, 5ed doesn't scale different power levels very well.

tl;dr - a good supers system is a good universal system, and I don't see either being that.

(*there are more system-light supers games out there.  But they get so handwavy I tend to avoid them.)

The only RPG that I've seen do Batman and Superman on the same team in a playable way was Unisystem with Buffy the Vampire Slayer's idea of how Major and Minor Heroes worked differently powered but equally fun.

Somebody should steal that for a Supers game.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 01, 2021, 03:50:55 PM
Not really... 5e's level-based bounded accuracy isn't a great fit for the superhero genre.

Agree - it might work if they focused in on Batman level superheroes. (Which might be fun if they ramped up the Silver Age vibes to 11.) But trying to do Avengers or Justice League level powers is not a good fit. Which - from looking at the artwork of them - both of those Kickstarters are definitely trying for the high-powered vibe.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on July 02, 2021, 07:47:38 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 01, 2021, 03:50:55 PM
Not really... 5e's level-based bounded accuracy isn't a great fit for the superhero genre.

Agree - it might work if they focused in on Batman level superheroes. (Which might be fun if they ramped up the Silver Age vibes to 11.) But trying to do Avengers or Justice League level powers is not a good fit. Which - from looking at the artwork of them - both of those Kickstarters are definitely trying for the high-powered vibe.

The related bit is; if you yank the 5e proficiency bonus for a +1/level one to get a decent power curve for superheroes you're basically looking at a houseruled M&M 2e; same core stats, same attribute modifiers, same action economy; and what's the point?

Frankly, presuming D&D-ish level complexity, M&M3e is basically near the pinnacle, it's got the power build options of Champions (streamlined from Hero's x# modifiers to +X/power rank) married to an easier to grok for newbies d20+mods vs. TN core mechanic and the d20 standard/move/free action economy in place of phases.

You might be able to tweak around the edges by dropping the True20 core to add some different resolution systems and resources, but it's a hard sell to abandon all that M&M content (tons of pregen npcs and opponents you can easily reskin if nothing else) for improvements that might be able to just be plugged into M&M as a houserule.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 02, 2021, 09:01:20 AM
The related bit is; if you yank the 5e proficiency bonus for a +1/level one to get a decent power curve for superheroes you're basically looking at a houseruled M&M 2e; same core stats, same attribute modifiers, same action economy; and what's the point?

I suspect that it's two-fold:

1)  The authors are trying to make an exceptions based system powered by the D&D engine, because some people like to pick pre-made powers from lists for their supers game.  I find it lazy and/or unimaginative (and down right limiting for a player), but these are the same folks who'll buy a supplement because it boosts "32 new powers!".  And publishers love those folk.
2)  The 5ed brand name helps sell third party garbage.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 02, 2021, 09:01:20 AM
Frankly, presuming D&D-ish level complexity, M&M3e is basically near the pinnacle, it's got the power build options of Champions (streamlined from Hero's x# modifiers to +X/power rank) married to an easier to grok for newbies d20+mods vs. TN core mechanic and the d20 standard/move/free action economy in place of phases.

As much as I've moved from HERO to M&M, M&M's combat is very very hollow and swingy to me.  I mean, I get that they're trying to capture the way comics do damage and death (i.e. it's a plot device) but coming from HERO it doesn't feel right.

So let's put it through my Aunt May Combat Test*.

A burglar breaks in frail, old Aunt May's home (STA -1), and shoots her point blank with a shotgun (Dam 5).  She rolls her Toughness (-1) against the damage she's just taken (5+15=20) and gets a 13 (14-1=13).  That's two degrees of failure, so Aunt May is dazed but can still move at full rate.  Since a frail old woman can most likely survive a point blank shotgun test (she can only die on a natural 1, since 1-1=0=five levels of damage**), it fails the Aunt May Combat Test. 

HERO meanwhile... Aunt May has, say, 4 Body and 8 Stun.  She gets hit with a shotgun that does, say, 2.5d6 damage, and she's much more likely to die, and certainly going to be incapacitated.

And when you factor in supers, things get more silly.  Under M&M rules, Healing and Regeneration don't mean much since a character fully recovers at the end of a combat scene anyway.  Likewise, immortality isn't worth buying since your character only dies due to Player Fiat and not random dice rolls.

Like I said, these are design goals and should be seen as features, but they still feel out of place to me.  Like the system is so crunchy for everything but combat damage, at which point it embraces hand-wavyness.

(*I came up with this back before Aunt May became a younger, more energetic dynamo.  Certainly before Marissa Tomei took on the role.)
(**and that's assuming the GM enforces her death at 5 wound levels)

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 02, 2021, 11:14:27 AM
As much as I've moved from HERO to M&M, M&M's combat is very very hollow and swingy to me.  I mean, I get that they're trying to capture the way comics do damage and death (i.e. it's a plot device) but coming from HERO it doesn't feel right.

Since you do play M&M, allow me to suggest a house rule we've been using for years.

PCs and important NPCs have 50 health and are staggered at less than 20 health, unconscious at 0 health. Minions and similar non-combat NPCs have 10 health and are incapacitated at 0 health. We always rules death depended on plot relevance, but you could easily set it at anywhere from -10 to -50 depending on how gritty you wanted the setting. Recovery and healing restored 10 points per bruise they'd normally recover.

Instead of the usual damage save of d20+Toughness vs. DC 15+ranks and the bruises track, the damage is rolled as 1d20+Rank and the target subtracts their Toughness (or Fort or Will if its damage against a non-standard defense) from the damage dealt before applying it to their health.

Using the Aunt May test... The burglar rolls 1d20+5 for the shotgun damage and gets dead average 11+5 for 16 damage. Aunt May's -1 toughness means she takes 17 damage. As a non-combat NPC she falls incapacitated and is at -7 health... near death if you use the -10 and a second shot even with the crappiest possible damage roll would finish her off for certain; but by plot considerations she's probably in a coma clinging to life and waiting for Peter to make that deal with Mephisto to get better (yes, I'm still better about Brand New Day).

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 02, 2021, 11:14:27 AM

So let's put it through my Aunt May Combat Test*.

A burglar breaks in frail, old Aunt May's home (STA -1), and shoots her point blank with a shotgun (Dam 5).  She rolls her Toughness (-1) against the damage she's just taken (5+15=20) and gets a 13 (14-1=13).  That's two degrees of failure, so Aunt May is dazed but can still move at full rate.  Since a frail old woman can most likely survive a point blank shotgun test (she can only die on a natural 1, since 1-1=0=five levels of damage**), it fails the Aunt May Combat Test. 

HERO meanwhile... Aunt May has, say, 4 Body and 8 Stun.  She gets hit with a shotgun that does, say, 2.5d6 damage, and she's much more likely to die, and certainly going to be incapacitated.

And when you factor in supers, things get more silly.  Under M&M rules, Healing and Regeneration don't mean much since a character fully recovers at the end of a combat scene anyway.  Likewise, immortality isn't worth buying since your character only dies due to Player Fiat and not random dice rolls.

Like I said, these are design goals and should be seen as features, but they still feel out of place to me.  Like the system is so crunchy for everything but combat damage, at which point it embraces hand-wavyness.

That is an interesting synopsis of some of my issues with the M&M Toughness save. Over all, when it's supe vs supe, it's a bit swingy, but there are enough edge cases to make me twitch and jerk a little.

I ran M&M 2nd edition for a time, and it worked fine with different types of heroes.   Now mind you they were in the same PL, but basically the flying brick (Thor rip off) would fight the big evil flying mook, while the agile costumed adventurer would tear through the henchmen on the ground.

If I was to run Justice League with M&M 2nd edition, I would probably keep them all PL 12, with more power points over cap, that would mean a slightly toned down Supes and a slightly beefed up Bats (we're talking a "Justice League Batman"- who maybe is packing electric stun Bat-gauntlets like he's had in Arkham Asylum video games and Justice League Unlimited to pack a bit more of a punch, and of course some decent armor, and a glider cape, probably a flying car too like he had in the Morrison comics). 

And all of sudden, it kinda works, and it makes more sense to my "Head canon" as to "Why is Batman in the Justice League" (well this Batman has some tech that allows him to keep up.  He's billionaire Bruce Wayne.  He's not fighting aliens and demigods with Flash and Green Lantern without it).  And why does Superman even need these jamokes?  (Well a ...slightly... toned down Supes can't do EVERYTHING....), etc.

So, yeah, you have to fiddle with it.   

Looked over M&M 3rd edition, btw, and it didn't do it for me.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 02, 2021, 12:54:03 PM
PCs and important NPCs have 50 health and are staggered at less than 20 health, unconscious at 0 health. Minions and similar non-combat NPCs have 10 health and are incapacitated at 0 health. We always rules death depended on plot relevance, but you could easily set it at anywhere from -10 to -50 depending on how gritty you wanted the setting. Recovery and healing restored 10 points per bruise they'd normally recover.

Using the Aunt May test... The burglar rolls 1d20+5 for the shotgun damage and gets dead average 11+5 for 16 damage. Aunt May's -1 toughness means she takes 17 damage. As a non-combat NPC she falls incapacitated and is at -7 health... near death if you use the -10 and a second shot even with the crappiest possible damage roll would finish her off for certain; but by plot considerations she's probably in a coma clinging to life and waiting for Peter to make that deal with Mephisto to get better (yes, I'm still better about Brand New Day).

I like it.  The bookkeeping is minimal (and some bookkeeping is probably a goal to be honest), it makes lethal things more lethal, and it doesn't really change the rules much.  I might throw in a "lethal vs. bashing" type of damage thing, and/or -maybe- increase NPC hit points so that a burglar isn't likely to kill Aunt May in one punch. 

But recovery still feels wonky to me.

Quote from: zagreus on July 05, 2021, 01:13:39 PM
If I was to run Justice League with M&M 2nd edition, I would probably keep them all PL 12, with more power points over cap, that would mean a slightly toned down Supes and a slightly beefed up Bats (we're talking a "Justice League Batman"- who maybe is packing electric stun Bat-gauntlets like he's had in Arkham Asylum video games and Justice League Unlimited to pack a bit more of a punch, and of course some decent armor, and a glider cape, probably a flying car too like he had in the Morrison comics). 

And all of sudden, it kinda works, and it makes more sense to my "Head canon" as to "Why is Batman in the Justice League" (well this Batman has some tech that allows him to keep up.  He's billionaire Bruce Wayne.  He's not fighting aliens and demigods with Flash and Green Lantern without it).  And why does Superman even need these jamokes?  (Well a ...slightly... toned down Supes can't do EVERYTHING....), etc.

When M&M 3ed had a run of licensed DCU books released, one of the things they did was to make Batman a comparatively low PL character (8 IIRC), but gave him over 200 points to cover all of his skills, advantages, gear, etc.

I'm not saying it's a perfect balance (and, to be honest, perfect balance is a bit of a pipe dream anyway), but it clicked for me.  It was a way to balance highly powered characters (e.g. Superman) with diversely able characters (e.g. Batman).  It also seemed like a good way to balance Solars and Dragon-Blooded in Exalted (non-Exalts, and especially heroic mortals, would still get the shaft, but fudge 'em).

Yeah, I saw that.  It was a good supplement.   I picked it up, even though I wasn't interested in 3rd ed. M&M.  Also, a big fan of Talisien's builds for 2nd edition on the web.  If you can find them, that cat's statted out pretty much everyone in excruciating detail (also did 3rd ed stats for Marvel supers, not DC, since they had the book, as you say). 

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 06, 2021, 09:50:17 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 02, 2021, 12:54:03 PM
PCs and important NPCs have 50 health and are staggered at less than 20 health, unconscious at 0 health. Minions and similar non-combat NPCs have 10 health and are incapacitated at 0 health. We always rules death depended on plot relevance, but you could easily set it at anywhere from -10 to -50 depending on how gritty you wanted the setting. Recovery and healing restored 10 points per bruise they'd normally recover.

Using the Aunt May test... The burglar rolls 1d20+5 for the shotgun damage and gets dead average 11+5 for 16 damage. Aunt May's -1 toughness means she takes 17 damage. As a non-combat NPC she falls incapacitated and is at -7 health... near death if you use the -10 and a second shot even with the crappiest possible damage roll would finish her off for certain; but by plot considerations she's probably in a coma clinging to life and waiting for Peter to make that deal with Mephisto to get better (yes, I'm still better about Brand New Day).

I like it.  The bookkeeping is minimal (and some bookkeeping is probably a goal to be honest), it makes lethal things more lethal, and it doesn't really change the rules much.  I might throw in a "lethal vs. bashing" type of damage thing, and/or -maybe- increase NPC hit points so that a burglar isn't likely to kill Aunt May in one punch. 

But recovery still feels wonky to me.

Admittedly, it's mostly geared for heroes and mooks, not necessarily bystanders. Heroes rapidly push past injuries that would cripple ordinary people for life all the time and it's meant to reflect that. That said, once you're below zero health/incapacitated you're pretty much out of the fight unless you have a power that changes things.

Default recovery in 2e is a DC 10 Constitution check after 1 minute of rest for non-lethal damage (i.e. bruises) or 1 hour rest for lethal damage (i.e. wounds) and the dying condition is it's own separate check with a with a basic success only maintaining your state and I believe needing to beat the margin by 10 (so DC 20) to end the dying condition on your own.

Aunt May needs an 11+ on her d20 after a minute to wake up from a thug cold-cocking her (non-lethal) and would need two more successful checks to stop being staggered. If shot she'd need an 11+ to not slide closer to death and couldn't score the needed 21+ to stop dying without medical intervention.

Powers can obviously change this dramatically. My Brick-style hero opted for regeneration over impervious toughness and spent a lot of points to be able to bounce back even from the dying condition (auto-stabilized then needed about 10 minutes to wake up unless someone coup de graced him while he was down). It felt more dramatic than just "everything below X caliber bounces off, everything X+1 does full damage."

By the way, I asked the authors for both of the Kickstarters to reply to this thread.

Id honestly like to see what sort of 5e approaches they are making and how compatible with plain, vanilla 5e their rule sets are.