The entire article can be found here: https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2023/07/drivethrurpg-brings-down-the-ban-hammer-on-ai-written-content.html
Here are some of the highlights:
"The following policy applies to DriveThru Marketplaces. DriveThruRPG defines "AI-Generated art" as images created through the use of artificial intelligence algorithms and techniques trained on pre-existing data sets. (Examples: Midjourney, Artbreeder).
At this time, DriveThru Marketplaces require partners to set their own AI-generated artwork policies on Game, Rulebook and Adventure products. Any products that utilize AI-generated artwork must be tagged as such.
At this time, DriveThru Marketplaces do not accept standalone artwork products that utilize AI-generated art.
Update July 19th, 2023: While we value innovation, starting on July 31st 2023, Roll20 and DriveThru Marketplaces will not accept commercial content primarily written by AI language generators. We acknowledge enforcement challenges, and trust in the goodwill of our partners to offer customers unique works based primarily on human creativity. As with our AI-generated art policy, community content program policies are dictated by the publisher that owns it.
"
Your thoughts?
I decided to avoid AI in my products for the time being, even before this decision.
But anyway, AI art is already common in DTRPG.
What they are trying to avoid is AI DRIVEL; things with no significant human input (e.g., AI stock art, AI-generated text).
There are a few examples in DTRPG too. It is a bit annoying.
But I think it is inevitable that AI (or at least AI-assisted) stuff will take over DTRPG soon.
In six months to a year, most art will be AI-generated or at least AI-assisted.
For text, it will be indistinguishable soon.
I am a bit anxious about that scenario (for fear of becoming obsolete as a writer), but let's see what happens.
AI-Art is gonna have a watermark so they can identify it (unless you can crop it out?)
What I want to know is how the fuck are they going to KNOW that something was written by AI?
My guess it's it'll be by users reporting the content, which we all know won't be abused for ideological reasons ever...
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 11:38:47 AM
AI-Art is gonna have a watermark so they can identify it (unless you can crop it out?)
What I want to know is how the fuck are they going to KNOW that something was written by AI?
My guess it's it'll be by users reporting the content, which we all know won't be abused for ideological reasons ever...
Exactly. How will they even be able to tell the difference between AI art that's 100% AI created vs stuff that's been modified by humans?
This entire thing is just virtue signaling to appease the luddites raging against AI. And I don't even entirely disagree that there are
some valid (but widely overblown) concerns about AI generated content. But this is just shaking their fist against the clouds, and it's ultimately gonna end up being arbitrarily enforced, likely against ideological wrongthinkers.
Cat's out of the bag. AI already exists. AI content is inevitable.
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 01, 2023, 12:46:55 PM
Cat's out of the bag. AI already exists. AI content is inevitable.
Fair enough but I see it more akin to bioweapon research. Just a timebomb around with more ego then ethics.
Nothing good will come of it.
All it takes is to have a human being altar the output of an AI generated piece and they can't say a damn thing. 20% change is all it takes to be "transformative" which, by DMCA law, makes it a new and unique piece.
Midjourney already says they allow you use of the content upto $1M worth of revune for the art piece,you now have a license to use AI generated art from the software company that provides the service.
They're trying to keep out AI drivel created by idiots who want to make a fast buck. As someone who would never play or run AI written material, I support this stance. Some things are just better without computers. That's a hill I will die on.
Quote from: rytrasmi on August 01, 2023, 01:52:43 PM
They're trying to keep out AI drivel created by idiots who want to make a fast buck. As someone who would never play or run AI written material, I support this stance. Some things are just better without computers. That's a hill I will die on.
Preventing this drivel from being tossed out there will be a blessing in disguise. Even some of the user created content is barely better than AI crap but the market makes that chuff be driven to the bottom of the trashpile
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 11:38:47 AM
AI-Art is gonna have a watermark so they can identify it (unless you can crop it out?)
What I want to know is how the fuck are they going to KNOW that something was written by AI?
My guess it's it'll be by users reporting the content, which we all know won't be abused for ideological reasons ever...
It get abused? How can you say such a thing about drivethrurpg ::)
I wish they would just be a content store and stop arbitrating what is right and wrong. I know it won't happen but I can wish.
This is why we need someone else in the market with the money and the backing to give them competition.
Quote from: rytrasmi on August 01, 2023, 01:52:43 PM
They're trying to keep out AI drivel created by idiots who want to make a fast buck. As someone who would never play or run AI written material, I support this stance. Some things are just better without computers. That's a hill I will die on.
Since I only use print and despise .pdfs it won't effect me unless they sell something on the site that I can get printed and uses AI drivel. I don't really care about art in rpgs that much so it's not a big deal to me.
Quote from: GhostNinja on August 01, 2023, 11:15:12 AM
The entire article can be found here: https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2023/07/drivethrurpg-brings-down-the-ban-hammer-on-ai-written-content.html
Here are some of the highlights:
"The following policy applies to DriveThru Marketplaces. DriveThruRPG defines "AI-Generated art" as images created through the use of artificial intelligence algorithms and techniques trained on pre-existing data sets. (Examples: Midjourney, Artbreeder).
At this time, DriveThru Marketplaces require partners to set their own AI-generated artwork policies on Game, Rulebook and Adventure products. Any products that utilize AI-generated artwork must be tagged as such.
At this time, DriveThru Marketplaces do not accept standalone artwork products that utilize AI-generated art.
Update July 19th, 2023: While we value innovation, starting on July 31st 2023, Roll20 and DriveThru Marketplaces will not accept commercial content primarily written by AI language generators. We acknowledge enforcement challenges, and trust in the goodwill of our partners to offer customers unique works based primarily on human creativity. As with our AI-generated art policy, community content program policies are dictated by the publisher that owns it.
"
Your thoughts?
Good for DriveThruRPG!
At this point, after seeing the results of AI art and chatbot output, I'm pretty sure that the widespread use of AI will strongly contribute to the dumbing down of humanity.
There is apparently still AI art for sale as stock art, so maybe this is "from now on" or "only if someone complains".
It saddens me to see how many are so quick to embrace this without stoping to think a little bit as to the end result, let me elaborate:
You, John Doe won't be able to use free art that looks kinda decent, you'll be forced to use the same public domain art everybody else is using, pony up money for shitty art (since you don't have the money) or don't use ANY art at all. Thus making your product less visually appealing than the big boys who can pay for good art.
You, John Doe will be under the sword of Damocles of your shit being reported as AI written by any asshole and we know how DTTRPG handles those things, your shit gets taken down until they investigate or you can prove a negative, but the big boys won't be ever under such a threat because who would believe you if you said WotKKK used AI to write their next bullshit setting?
And the big boys have the money to install and run their own AI and train it with their own old shit so they could perfectly use AI and no one would know.
So, in the end this is just another example of a regulation "to protect the consumer" being really a regulation to protect the big boys.
It's a big club and you're not in it.
I'm under no illusion that any of the AI hatting people will change their tune, "it's gonna flood DTTRPG with badly written drivel!" Dude, have you been to DTTRPG latelly? It is already flooded with shit! By design if you ask me, it makes it harder for the small player to be found while not affecting the big boys in the very least.
Well, I wasn't planning on publishing ttrpgs anyway. Now I never will.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 04:42:12 PMYou, John Doe won't be able to use free art that looks kinda decent, you'll be forced to use the same public domain art everybody else is using, pony up money for shitty art (since you don't have the money) or don't use ANY art at all. Thus making your product less visually appealing than the big boys who can pay for good art.
With AI everywhere fancy art doesn't actually stand out. Its seen as a mandate as when EVERYTHING has fancy art,
nothing has fancy art.
The key to success remains marketting and brand recognition which the big boys will have no matter what tech innovations come into existence.
The only difference is that anything you do as a writer and an artist is always under threat. The big boys have the MOST to profit from this. Their fucking adapting for it and funding it the most.
QuoteWell what I do is special, and won't be replaced
Just like the people your rooting for to be replaced that at one point where irreplacable?
Can you think ahead of your immediate short term benefit for ONE step?
My thoughts? I'm a creative, it's how I make my living. Computer programs that crunch an artist's ideas without their permission, and then produce content that can make money and not pay the original artist anything? I vote No. Shrugging and saying "the cat's out of the bag" is the opposite of helpful. If people would instead vote with their wallets, about everything odious, we might have a better world.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 04:42:12 PM
It saddens me to see how many are so quick to embrace this without stoping to think a little bit as to the end result, let me elaborate:
You, John Doe won't be able to use free art that looks kinda decent, you'll be forced to use the same public domain art everybody else is using, pony up money for shitty art (since you don't have the money) or don't use ANY art at all. Thus making your product less visually appealing than the big boys who can pay for good art.
You, John Doe will be under the sword of Damocles of your shit being reported as AI written by any asshole and we know how DTTRPG handles those things, your shit gets taken down until they investigate or you can prove a negative, but the big boys won't be ever under such a threat because who would believe you if you said WotKKK used AI to write their next bullshit setting?
And the big boys have the money to install and run their own AI and train it with their own old shit so they could perfectly use AI and no one would know.
So, in the end this is just another example of a regulation "to protect the consumer" being really a regulation to protect the big boys.
It's a big club and you're not in it.
I'm under no illusion that any of the AI hatting people will change their tune, "it's gonna flood DTTRPG with badly written drivel!" Dude, have you been to DTTRPG latelly? It is already flooded with shit! By design if you ask me, it makes it harder for the small player to be found while not affecting the big boys in the very least.
Yup there's tons of crap out there already. With AI there will be a lot more crap that looks pretty and sounds well written but is still essentially crap.
You're saying there are brilliant designers who can't catch a break because art and editing are too expensive? Instead of dooming about AI bans, tell us who these people are so we can buy their games.
Quote from: rytrasmi on August 01, 2023, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 04:42:12 PM
It saddens me to see how many are so quick to embrace this without stoping to think a little bit as to the end result, let me elaborate:
You, John Doe won't be able to use free art that looks kinda decent, you'll be forced to use the same public domain art everybody else is using, pony up money for shitty art (since you don't have the money) or don't use ANY art at all. Thus making your product less visually appealing than the big boys who can pay for good art.
You, John Doe will be under the sword of Damocles of your shit being reported as AI written by any asshole and we know how DTTRPG handles those things, your shit gets taken down until they investigate or you can prove a negative, but the big boys won't be ever under such a threat because who would believe you if you said WotKKK used AI to write their next bullshit setting?
And the big boys have the money to install and run their own AI and train it with their own old shit so they could perfectly use AI and no one would know.
So, in the end this is just another example of a regulation "to protect the consumer" being really a regulation to protect the big boys.
It's a big club and you're not in it.
I'm under no illusion that any of the AI hatting people will change their tune, "it's gonna flood DTTRPG with badly written drivel!" Dude, have you been to DTTRPG latelly? It is already flooded with shit! By design if you ask me, it makes it harder for the small player to be found while not affecting the big boys in the very least.
Yup there's tons of crap out there already. With AI there will be a lot more crap that looks pretty and sounds well written but is still essentially crap.
You're saying there are brilliant designers who can't catch a break because art and editing are too expensive? Instead of dooming about AI bans, tell us who these people are so we can buy their games.
No, I'm saying this will be used to protect the big boys from competition, as all regulations are. It will also be used to persecute people over political issues, and you know that one is a fact.
Quote from: Baron on August 01, 2023, 05:34:26 PM
My thoughts? I'm a creative, it's how I make my living. Computer programs that crunch an artist's ideas without their permission, and then produce content that can make money and not pay the original artist anything? I vote No. Shrugging and saying "the cat's out of the bag" is the opposite of helpful. If people would instead vote with their wallets, about everything odious, we might have a better world.
EVERY artist ever learned from those who came before, training a program using art is the same. Can you prove ANY "AI" has plagiarized anyone? Or is your position that no one should be able to use the techniques of the classics because that's "crunching their ideas"?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 06:02:44 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on August 01, 2023, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 04:42:12 PM
It saddens me to see how many are so quick to embrace this without stoping to think a little bit as to the end result, let me elaborate:
You, John Doe won't be able to use free art that looks kinda decent, you'll be forced to use the same public domain art everybody else is using, pony up money for shitty art (since you don't have the money) or don't use ANY art at all. Thus making your product less visually appealing than the big boys who can pay for good art.
You, John Doe will be under the sword of Damocles of your shit being reported as AI written by any asshole and we know how DTTRPG handles those things, your shit gets taken down until they investigate or you can prove a negative, but the big boys won't be ever under such a threat because who would believe you if you said WotKKK used AI to write their next bullshit setting?
And the big boys have the money to install and run their own AI and train it with their own old shit so they could perfectly use AI and no one would know.
So, in the end this is just another example of a regulation "to protect the consumer" being really a regulation to protect the big boys.
It's a big club and you're not in it.
I'm under no illusion that any of the AI hatting people will change their tune, "it's gonna flood DTTRPG with badly written drivel!" Dude, have you been to DTTRPG latelly? It is already flooded with shit! By design if you ask me, it makes it harder for the small player to be found while not affecting the big boys in the very least.
Yup there's tons of crap out there already. With AI there will be a lot more crap that looks pretty and sounds well written but is still essentially crap.
You're saying there are brilliant designers who can't catch a break because art and editing are too expensive? Instead of dooming about AI bans, tell us who these people are so we can buy their games.
No, I'm saying this will be used to protect the big boys from competition, as all regulations are. It will also be used to persecute people over political issues, and you know that one is a fact.
They can take down anyone's product for any reason right now. The fact is takedowns are very rare because, like all online retailers, Drive Thru wants more product to sell, not less. In other words, they don't need to use AI as an excuse. If they wanted to "regulate" the small guy out of business they would have done that already.
Besides who the fuck is buying big brand materials from Drive Thru? Most would go to the source for in print materials.
Quote from: rytrasmi on August 01, 2023, 06:38:02 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 06:02:44 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on August 01, 2023, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 04:42:12 PM
It saddens me to see how many are so quick to embrace this without stoping to think a little bit as to the end result, let me elaborate:
You, John Doe won't be able to use free art that looks kinda decent, you'll be forced to use the same public domain art everybody else is using, pony up money for shitty art (since you don't have the money) or don't use ANY art at all. Thus making your product less visually appealing than the big boys who can pay for good art.
You, John Doe will be under the sword of Damocles of your shit being reported as AI written by any asshole and we know how DTTRPG handles those things, your shit gets taken down until they investigate or you can prove a negative, but the big boys won't be ever under such a threat because who would believe you if you said WotKKK used AI to write their next bullshit setting?
And the big boys have the money to install and run their own AI and train it with their own old shit so they could perfectly use AI and no one would know.
So, in the end this is just another example of a regulation "to protect the consumer" being really a regulation to protect the big boys.
It's a big club and you're not in it.
I'm under no illusion that any of the AI hatting people will change their tune, "it's gonna flood DTTRPG with badly written drivel!" Dude, have you been to DTTRPG latelly? It is already flooded with shit! By design if you ask me, it makes it harder for the small player to be found while not affecting the big boys in the very least.
Yup there's tons of crap out there already. With AI there will be a lot more crap that looks pretty and sounds well written but is still essentially crap.
You're saying there are brilliant designers who can't catch a break because art and editing are too expensive? Instead of dooming about AI bans, tell us who these people are so we can buy their games.
No, I'm saying this will be used to protect the big boys from competition, as all regulations are. It will also be used to persecute people over political issues, and you know that one is a fact.
They can take down anyone's product for any reason right now. The fact is takedowns are very rare because, like all online retailers, Drive Thru wants more product to sell, not less. In other words, they don't need to use AI as an excuse. If they wanted to "regulate" the small guy out of business they would have done that already.
Besides who the fuck is buying big brand materials from Drive Thru? Most would go to the source for in print materials.
You don't get it, I'm NOT talking ONLY about Drive Thru regulating anyone out of business, I'm talking about assholes reporting someone's content as being AI written. Because you voted wrong. Do you get it now?
Edited to add:
Now, let's adress the Drive Thru thing:
Are big third party publishers on it? YES, they already have the money to pay for art of much better quality than me for instance, regulating that AI generated art is verbotten means I have now an increased cost to compete with the guys already in the market. Which by extension means the big boys have LESS competition to worry about.
Every regulation that increases the cost to enter a market IS protecting the big players already in said market. Even if those players aren't selling in Drive Thru.
Quote from: Baron on August 01, 2023, 05:34:26 PM
My thoughts? I'm a creative, it's how I make my living. Computer programs that crunch an artist's ideas without their permission, and then produce content that can make money and not pay the original artist anything? I vote No. Shrugging and saying "the cat's out of the bag" is the opposite of helpful. If people would instead vote with their wallets, about everything odious, we might have a better world.
No, saying "the cat's out of the bag" is observing REALITY. The tech already exists. There's NO unringing that bell already. Crying that you personally may be affected by it and misconstruing how the tech actually works won't change that. It will just keep you ignorant while the tech continues to exist.
Celebrating any clamp down on the basis of feels cuz you don't like something, on the other hand, without a single thought for the greater ramifications that this clap down will inevitability have is a fucking shortsighted disaster. You're not thinking of the consequences that this proposed ban could have down the line or the fact that there's NO way that this could adequately be enforced. You're just crying like a bitch that this tech could hurt you personally (and I'm me too, by the way, since I'm also a "creative") and saying "Fuck it all! ANY clap down must be good as long as there's SOME type of clap down. WAH!"
But NONE of this addresses the questions: HOW will they even be able to determine what's AI generated or not? How will they distinguish between pure AI and human-modified work? What percentage of content can be based on AI vs human modified? How will they be able to determine what percentage is AI vs human in any given work? Who will actually be affected? How will any of this fucking thing work?
Cuz even if all you dumb fucks are right (you're not, but just for the sake of argument) the fact still remains that there are serious questions about the implementation and feasibility of this proposed ban--or even if it will actually solve ANYTHING.
DTRPG & Many Other Companies Everywhere: "AI art will now be banned"
Well whoopie fucking do! HOW will any of this even work?
Quote
"The following policy applies to DriveThru Marketplaces:
- Any products that utilize AI-generated artwork must be tagged as such.
0) How the fck are they going to know?
1) How the fck are they going to enforce?
2) Who the fck cares if the pics of space ships in some game book are computer generated?
3) Who beat the execs over at DriveThru with a stupid stick?
Quote from: rytrasmi on August 01, 2023, 01:52:43 PM
They're trying to keep out AI drivel created by idiots who want to make a fast buck. As someone who would never play or run AI written material, I support this stance. Some things are just better without computers. That's a hill I will die on.
That is a stupid statement. If you would never play it (for whatever weird reason) then what do you care if they sell it to other people? No one would force you to buy and play it. Are you on drugs?
Authenticating art is easy. Artists can screen capture their whole drawing process to prove they're real artists and not prompt monkeys. A real artist can easily prove their past work is real by redrawing it on video. Or at least redrawing enough to prove that, yes, they can actually draw and aren't prompt monkeys.
It will take longer for AI to be able create fake videos of making a drawing from scratch, so we have a few years in which this method is valid. Honestly, by the time AI can fake the entire creative process, we'll probably have even worse problems than the plague of AI generated "art".
Quote from: Baron on August 01, 2023, 05:34:26 PM
My thoughts? I'm a creative, it's how I make my living. Computer programs that crunch an artist's ideas without their permission, and then produce content that can make money and not pay the original artist anything? I vote No. Shrugging and saying "the cat's out of the bag" is the opposite of helpful. If people would instead vote with their wallets, about everything odious, we might have a better world.
LMAO! Did you know that a HUMAN can
crunch an artist's ideas without their permission, (using a myriad of graphics pgms) and then produce content that can make money and not pay the original artist anything? The crap produced by programs (there is NO A.I.) is just that, crap. If it is better than what you can make you are in the wrong job.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 06:02:44 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on August 01, 2023, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 04:42:12 PM
It saddens me to see how many are so quick to embrace this without stoping to think a little bit as to the end result, let me elaborate:
You, John Doe won't be able to use free art that looks kinda decent, you'll be forced to use the same public domain art everybody else is using, pony up money for shitty art (since you don't have the money) or don't use ANY art at all. Thus making your product less visually appealing than the big boys who can pay for good art.
You, John Doe will be under the sword of Damocles of your shit being reported as AI written by any asshole and we know how DTTRPG handles those things, your shit gets taken down until they investigate or you can prove a negative, but the big boys won't be ever under such a threat because who would believe you if you said WotKKK used AI to write their next bullshit setting?
And the big boys have the money to install and run their own AI and train it with their own old shit so they could perfectly use AI and no one would know.
So, in the end this is just another example of a regulation "to protect the consumer" being really a regulation to protect the big boys.
It's a big club and you're not in it.
I'm under no illusion that any of the AI hatting people will change their tune, "it's gonna flood DTTRPG with badly written drivel!" Dude, have you been to DTTRPG latelly? It is already flooded with shit! By design if you ask me, it makes it harder for the small player to be found while not affecting the big boys in the very least.
Yup there's tons of crap out there already. With AI there will be a lot more crap that looks pretty and sounds well written but is still essentially crap.
You're saying there are brilliant designers who can't catch a break because art and editing are too expensive? Instead of dooming about AI bans, tell us who these people are so we can buy their games.
No, I'm saying this will be used to protect the big boys from competition, as all regulations are.
I have no doubt about that - WotC and Disney will be using AI art and writing in no time, regardless of any hurdles are put in place to small competitors.
In theory, at least, AI could help the little guy in the style of MJ, i.e., "free to use until one million dollars", or something.
OTOH, the societal repercussions will be huge and I d'pont think we are nowhere ready.
(With that said, I'm not "pro" or "anti" AI; for me it is a tool that can be used for good or unimaginable evil).
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 01, 2023, 07:40:40 PM
Authenticating art is easy. Artists can screen capture their whole drawing process to prove they're real artists and not prompt monkeys. A real artist can easily prove their past work is real by redrawing it on video. Or at least redrawing enough to prove that, yes, they can actually draw and aren't prompt monkeys.
It will take longer for AI to be able create fake videos of making a drawing from scratch, so we have a few years in which this method is valid. Honestly, by the time AI can fake the entire creative process, we'll probably have even worse problems than the plague of AI generated "art".
That's going to make buying art from people Sooooooooooooooo much cheaper....
Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 01, 2023, 07:57:34 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 06:02:44 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on August 01, 2023, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 04:42:12 PM
It saddens me to see how many are so quick to embrace this without stoping to think a little bit as to the end result, let me elaborate:
You, John Doe won't be able to use free art that looks kinda decent, you'll be forced to use the same public domain art everybody else is using, pony up money for shitty art (since you don't have the money) or don't use ANY art at all. Thus making your product less visually appealing than the big boys who can pay for good art.
You, John Doe will be under the sword of Damocles of your shit being reported as AI written by any asshole and we know how DTTRPG handles those things, your shit gets taken down until they investigate or you can prove a negative, but the big boys won't be ever under such a threat because who would believe you if you said WotKKK used AI to write their next bullshit setting?
And the big boys have the money to install and run their own AI and train it with their own old shit so they could perfectly use AI and no one would know.
So, in the end this is just another example of a regulation "to protect the consumer" being really a regulation to protect the big boys.
It's a big club and you're not in it.
I'm under no illusion that any of the AI hatting people will change their tune, "it's gonna flood DTTRPG with badly written drivel!" Dude, have you been to DTTRPG latelly? It is already flooded with shit! By design if you ask me, it makes it harder for the small player to be found while not affecting the big boys in the very least.
Yup there's tons of crap out there already. With AI there will be a lot more crap that looks pretty and sounds well written but is still essentially crap.
You're saying there are brilliant designers who can't catch a break because art and editing are too expensive? Instead of dooming about AI bans, tell us who these people are so we can buy their games.
No, I'm saying this will be used to protect the big boys from competition, as all regulations are.
I have no doubt about that - WotC and Disney will be using AI art and writing in no time, regardless of any hurdles are put in place to small competitors.
In theory, at least, AI could help the little guy in the style of MJ, i.e., "free to use until one million dollars", or something.
OTOH, the societal repercussions will be huge and I d'pont think we are nowhere ready.
(With that said, I'm not "pro" or "anti" AI; for me it is a tool that can be used for good or unimaginable evil).
THANK YOU!
Yes, the big boys will use whatever tool they want and all these regulations will do is ensure the small guy can't.
Netflix, Disney AND WotC (maybe others too) are right now hiring people to develop their inhouse AI, but heaven's forbide the common guy gets to use a similar tool!
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 01, 2023, 07:40:40 PM
Authenticating art is easy. Artists can screen capture their whole drawing process to prove they're real artists and not prompt monkeys. A real artist can easily prove their past work is real by redrawing it on video. Or at least redrawing enough to prove that, yes, they can actually draw and aren't prompt monkeys.
It will take longer for AI to be able create fake videos of making a drawing from scratch, so we have a few years in which this method is valid. Honestly, by the time AI can fake the entire creative process, we'll probably have even worse problems than the plague of AI generated "art".
None of this is actually easy or reasonable. The idea that artists now have to keep record of their ENTIRE creative process just to shield themselves from accusations whose burden of proof is supposed to be on the accuser is absurd. And redrawing a thing proves nothing. You could potentially draw something someone else drew if you're good enough. And this doesn't take into account that you could use photoshop and other graphic design tools as part of your process, or that you can use your own art and run it through an AI art generator to try out different styles or coloration, and customize it back and forward till you get what you're looking for. Then maybe modify it again later.
Plus again, burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused to prove that they're not guilty. And ALL of this turns the burden of proof on the accused.
IN OTHER NEWS Cotton Gin threatens the jobs of thousands of cotton seed pickers...
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 06:05:32 PM
EVERY artist ever learned from those who came before, training a program using art is the same. Can you prove ANY "AI" has plagiarized anyone? Or is your position that no one should be able to use the techniques of the classics because that's "crunching their ideas"?
And if it were actually learning instead of just adjusting weights to options in a database based on number of times a given element was selected for I'd say you'd have a point.
You can't copyright processes (and even patents are of limited duration) so you're free to use various mediums to create things, and if AI's did that in creating original or inspired works it would be fine.
But it's not really. Its ripping up existing people's art (at least thousands of pieces for a small one, 2.3+ billion for Stable Diffusion) and snatching pieces of it based on prompt weights in a database and reassembling them into batches where the assemblages that are selected by the end user have more weight added to them.
There is zero creation involved, just algorithms sorting data produced by others and scraped off the internet. And it still needs a lot of manual training (i.e. weighting the values properly) to even do that.
What modern "AI" really is is the offshoring of creative jobs to minimum wage Chinese and Indian workers who do the scutt work of adjusting the algorithms to produce results more favorable to the end users.
Lastly, all the AI art I see it generating these days has this slightly too soft edged and glossy surfaced just a bit uncanny valley look to it that's getting easier and easier to identify as its practically becoming its own genre (particularly as time goes on and it gets self-referential in terms of the art its scraping). All anyone has to do these days to prove their art is real and not AI generated is just not use that style (something not hard to do because over time the uncanny valley part starts to get hideous).
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 01, 2023, 08:15:57 PM
What modern "AI" really is is the offshoring of creative jobs to minimum wage Chinese and Indian workers who do the scutt work of adjusting the algorithms to produce results more favorable to the end users.
So? That is called a market economy and has brought more people out of poverty and more people into wealth than ANY system in history. The market is ALWAYS right. Because it is the collective will of EVERY participant. I am constantly shocked at how few people <60 years old have ZERO knowledge of econ.
Would you have the gov't come in and prohibit people from using these programs? If so, you are insane
The real problem with these algorithms is that they're killing creativity. They're starving real artists and discouraging people from ever becoming artists. And for what? More lowest common denominator shit?
I know artists can be neurotic and flaky as hell, but giving over our souls to the Robot Devil is not worth it.
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 01, 2023, 08:15:57 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 06:05:32 PM
EVERY artist ever learned from those who came before, training a program using art is the same. Can you prove ANY "AI" has plagiarized anyone? Or is your position that no one should be able to use the techniques of the classics because that's "crunching their ideas"?
And if it were actually learning instead of just adjusting weights to options in a database based on number of times a given element was selected for I'd say you'd have a point.
You can't copyright processes (and even patents are of limited duration) so you're free to use various mediums to create things, and if AI's did that in creating original or inspired works it would be fine.
But it's not really. Its ripping up existing people's art (at least thousands of pieces for a small one, 2.3+ billion for Stable Diffusion) and snatching pieces of it based on prompt weights in a database and reassembling them into batches where the assemblages that are selected by the end user have more weight added to them.
There is zero creation involved, just algorithms sorting data produced by others and scraped off the internet. And it still needs a lot of manual training (i.e. weighting the values properly) to even do that.
What modern "AI" really is is the offshoring of creative jobs to minimum wage Chinese and Indian workers who do the scutt work of adjusting the algorithms to produce results more favorable to the end users.
Lastly, all the AI art I see it generating these days has this slightly too soft edged and glossy surfaced just a bit uncanny valley look to it that's getting easier and easier to identify as its practically becoming its own genre (particularly as time goes on and it gets self-referential in terms of the art its scraping). All anyone has to do these days to prove their art is real and not AI generated is just not use that style (something not hard to do because over time the uncanny valley part starts to get hideous).
IF what you say is true then it would be trivially easy for someone to sue and demonstrate they ripped his art. And yet it won't happen.
"All every artist does is apply different weighs to the different influences he has."
So, the simpsons artists by drawing a famous piece in their style are producing a counterfeit?
I've played with it, it doesn't produce the same art as anyone, not even when you tell it to use that style. Because I'm asking it to draw something that artist didn't draw. I can ask it to draw me a sci-fi background in the style of Monet or Vangogh, is it producing a counterfeit of those artists? What about their contemporaries who were influenced by them? were they ripping of Monet's art?
You're correct on ONE point tho: It has no creativity, that is being supplied by whoever is typing the prompts.
As a consumer, IDGAF if the content I get is AI generated or not. How the flip am I gonna know unless you the publisher tell me? Hell, I can see a motivated creative working with AI to speed up the process or help in spots where he's weak producing some amazing works.
What I'm concerned with is that AI will be used to churn out low effort, low quality, zero value material so fast it floods the market completely. There's already so much shit being sold right now that I really have to do a lot of screening to get real content thanks to the PbtA rule set and the advent of one page rules. AI could make it so that I never find anything worth my time.
There was a point where Valve had to purge Steam of really shitty games because asset flippers were flooding them with garbage. A lot of people closed their Steam accounts and a lot of other really slowed down their purchases. I think Bookshelf knows it already has this problem and it will wreck them if it becomes AI fueled.
I think the real solution would be to get some honest TT gaming journalism going. I don't think the money is there to start an independent consumer reports style magazine for this purpose though. Anyone got any ideas?
P.S. Not all PbtA is shit but there are a lot of grifters producing "content" for it because it's so easy to do. The system itself isn't particularly good IMO but there have been some solid products that use it as a core. One page rules are low effort garbage; I will die on this hill.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 01, 2023, 08:28:06 PM
The real problem with these algorithms is that they're killing creativity.
This is the number one moronic comment of the day. REAL creative people are not stopping being creative to use the crappy "A.I." They instead CREATE new art. Only people who are NOT creative use the algorithms.
Quote from: BadApple on August 01, 2023, 08:39:41 PM
What I'm concerned with is that AI will be used to churn out low effort, low quality, zero value material so fast it floods the market completely.
Then don't fucking buy it. OR, are you insane and want to make it so no one else can buy what YOU don't like? So far that is what you are saying...
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 01, 2023, 08:28:06 PM
The real problem with these algorithms is that they're killing creativity. They're starving real artists and discouraging people from ever becoming artists. And for what? More lowest common denominator shit?
I know artists can be neurotic and flaky as hell, but giving over our souls to the Robot Devil is not worth it.
No, AI is not starving real artists. If it is discouraging anyone, that's their own fault, not the fault of AI. (Maybe we should call it Statistical Art, since it is not AI.)
Below is partially a rant. It does not apply to all artists. There are several here that we like and would use, but their styles are inappropriate for our writing.
As I've said elsewhere, we've looked for artists. Most of them won't even consider "commercial art" -- which is anything that licenses you to use it to make money, like RPG or book covers or interior art. Most don't advertise price ranges or what licenses they offer.
My favorite are the artists with anti-AI stuff all over their blog/website/ArtStation/DeviantArt, that, right next to the "AI is stealing my art" screed, have pictures they're selling or examples of commissions with copyrighted/trademarked characters and whatnot. Do as I say, not as I do?
We'd love to work with an artist, instead of working to learn the prompts (which is a real skill, worthy of payment itself) for Stable Diffusion.
But we could not find anyone we could afford. We wanted some simple cute stuff for our website and in the future for our RPGs.
We love Brandon Sanderson's cover artist. But $5k to $10k is a bit beyond our current budget. Even the $400 a piece stuff is too much right now. What we did find that we could afford, I am pretty sure were people using AI. ($50 for unlimited changes means you are using AI, right?)
Every RPG publisher and writer reports similar stuff - finding any reliable and not crazy expensive artist is almost impossible. If you find one who is reliable and affordable, you end up using them until they disappear off the face of the planet. We can't wait, hoping to grab one or two commission slots once or twice a year, if they are even offered that year.
But you know what, in the same amount of time we spent just looking for an artist, we managed to create usable, decent looking, art for our blog.
Quote from: Scooter on August 01, 2023, 08:40:52 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 01, 2023, 08:28:06 PM
The real problem with these algorithms is that they're killing creativity.
This is the number one moronic comment of the day. REAL creative people are not stopping being creative to use the crappy "A.I." They instead CREATE new art. Only people who are NOT creative use the algorithms.
Or those of us who suck at drawing. LOL
At work, we use the different AI coding option to make it easier to look up code examples occasionally. We've all been coding for 10 or 20 or more years. We don't need AI. But it makes looking stuff up faster. I like Perplexity AI, since it provides references to where it found the code, since a lot of standard, recommended and used solutions are really, really bad ideas. You have to look through all the StackOverflow answers to see what the caveats and addendum are.
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 01, 2023, 08:15:57 PMIts ripping up existing people's art (at least thousands of pieces for a small one, 2.3+ billion for Stable Diffusion) and snatching pieces of it based on prompt weights in a database and reassembling them into batches where the assemblages that are selected by the end user have more weight added to them.
Welcome to the established art of Collage. Used for centuries without copyright claims till AI was invented and people online suddenly decided that this was infringement. And a lot of this art doesn't even blend or diffuse images or anything, the way AI or graphic software can do. It's just pieces of identifiable images cut out and glued together into a transformative work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collage
I've yet to see a single claim about what AI does that doesn't sound like what human artists have been doing for centuries. Plus like Geeky pointed out, a lot of AI art is people asking it to create stuff no one else had created before. The only real issue (aside from people's "feels" about this) is that AI can do it better and faster than humans can, and that it ultimately benefits big tech and mega corps, who are bound to abuse this tech. But none of this is truly "stealing" original art.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 08:37:12 PM
You're correct on ONE point tho: It has no creativity, that is being supplied by whoever is typing the prompts.
I'm really, really impressed by some of the prompt experts with Stable Diffusion. They produce some incredible pictures, with very specific things in them. (This is as opposed to running 10,000 images for "barbarian with sword" and looking for a good one that matches your character.) And some of the pre-processing and special training for specific characters is incredible. We're just infants at it, but we can make acceptable images for our purposes.
Quote from: Tod13 on August 01, 2023, 08:53:36 PM
Or those of us who suck at drawing. LOL
Like myself. :'(
QuoteAt work, we use the different AI coding option to make it easier to look up code examples occasionally. We've all been coding for 10 or 20 or more years. We don't need AI. But it makes looking stuff up faster. I like Perplexity AI, since it provides references to where it found the code, since a lot of standard, recommended and used solutions are really, really bad ideas. You have to look through all the StackOverflow answers to see what the caveats and addendum are.
Cool. I wish I could live long enough to see real A.I. But, I won't live to be several hundred years old.
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 01, 2023, 08:55:24 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 01, 2023, 08:15:57 PMIts ripping up existing people's art (at least thousands of pieces for a small one, 2.3+ billion for Stable Diffusion) and snatching pieces of it based on prompt weights in a database and reassembling them into batches where the assemblages that are selected by the end user have more weight added to them.
Welcome to the established art of Collage. Used for centuries without copyright claims till AI was invented and people online suddenly decided that this was infringement. And a lot of this art doesn't even blend or diffuse images or anything, the way AI or graphic software can do. It's just pieces of identifiable images cut out and glued together into a transformative work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collage
I've yet to see a single claim about what AI does that doesn't sound like what human artists have been doing for centuries. Plus like Geeky pointed out, a lot of AI art is people asking it to create stuff no one else had created before. The only real issue (aside from people's "feels" about this) is that AI can do it better and faster than humans can, and that it ultimately benefits big tech and mega corps, who are bound to abuse this tech. But none of this is truly "stealing" original art.
How about the school of art that learns to paint/draw/etc by copying the old masterpieces to learn the technique? (Which is sort of what statistics for art does.) I guess anyone who ever looked at someone else's art for ideas about perspective, shadows, or coloring stole from that artist.
Quote from: Scooter on August 01, 2023, 08:49:18 PM
Quote from: BadApple on August 01, 2023, 08:39:41 PM
What I'm concerned with is that AI will be used to churn out low effort, low quality, zero value material so fast it floods the market completely.
Then don't fucking buy it. OR, are you insane and want to make it so no one else can buy what YOU don't like? So far that is what you are saying...
Ok, so let me paint a picture for you. I open DTRPG and I get "84 new titles since your last visit." Do I have time to go through each and every one of them to see if I think there might be value in it for me? Nope. Fortunately, I can do a quick scan right now and pare that down to about 8 that I want to look over by looking at they system it runs on, dismissing publishers I know I don't care for, and ignoring VTT assets.
Now imagine if there's 85,000 new titles a day. The reality is that there will still only be 8 that hold any interest to me but I cannot find them for the pig shit they're covered in.
Let's not kid ourselves here. AI created games can be churned out with a few prompts, add a few AI art splashes, and dumped onto DTRPG in a matter of minutes. The problems is, this will produce a lot of non playable and uninteresting games that no one will want. One person could easily double the total items for sale on DTRPG in a few weeks. A couple of dozen grifters could straight up choke the OneBookshelf servers into complete uselessness in a month.
I don't expect every TTRPG product to cater to me. I do expect every TTRPG product to be functional and appeal to some tables somewhere or die and fade away. I also expect honest game developers to actually care about the product they sell and to do some play testing before release. There's a lot of dishonest publishers already and AI will enable a lot more.
Quote from: BadApple on August 01, 2023, 09:08:13 PM
Quote from: Scooter on August 01, 2023, 08:49:18 PM
Quote from: BadApple on August 01, 2023, 08:39:41 PM
What I'm concerned with is that AI will be used to churn out low effort, low quality, zero value material so fast it floods the market completely.
Then don't fucking buy it. OR, are you insane and want to make it so no one else can buy what YOU don't like? So far that is what you are saying...
Ok, so let me paint a picture for you.
Just answer the fucking question or admit insanity. Do you want to make it so no one else can buy what YOU don't like?
Quote from: Scooter on August 01, 2023, 09:10:30 PM
Quote from: BadApple on August 01, 2023, 09:08:13 PM
Quote from: Scooter on August 01, 2023, 08:49:18 PM
Quote from: BadApple on August 01, 2023, 08:39:41 PM
What I'm concerned with is that AI will be used to churn out low effort, low quality, zero value material so fast it floods the market completely.
Then don't fucking buy it. OR, are you insane and want to make it so no one else can buy what YOU don't like? So far that is what you are saying...
Ok, so let me paint a picture for you.
Just answer the fucking question or admit insanity. Do you want to make it so no one else can buy what YOU don't like?
First, you're being a prick.
Second, I did answer your question:
Quote from: BadApple on August 01, 2023, 09:08:13 PM
I don't expect every TTRPG product to cater to me. I do expect every TTRPG product to be functional and appeal to some tables somewhere or die and fade away. I also expect honest game developers to actually care about the product they sell and to do some play testing before release.
I have no "side" in this debate, but I think it is obvious that there is truth in both "sides":
- AI does NOT seem to be technically plagiarism or "theft" at all, by any definition that doesn't make an awesome artist like, say, Ken Kelly an occasional criminal by taking inspiration in Frazetta. Most OD&D art fits in the plagiarism definition of dr. Strange comics more than anything I've ever seen AI create.
- AI WILL make things a lot harder for actual artists and writers. This sucks for us. But we do not have a right to halt technology to save our jobs/hobbies (but see below).
- Creating drivel IS a lot easier with AI assistance. But so is creating good-looking images.
- OTOH it creates infinite free, WotC-level art for indies and levels the playing field slightly (they still get the "D&D" brand and lawyers that can potentially claim IP on stuff they didn't invent like "drow" and, I kid you not, "The Blessed Fields of Elysium" - although that may be contractual [OGL] rather than IP).
- The repercussions of AI can be so grave that this entire discussions about RPGs and art feels almost meaningless in comparison. The repercussions of AI REGULATION could be even worse, with censorship, information control, etc.
I wrote a bit about that here FWIW.
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/02/nick-cave-roald-dahl-and-colonel-some.html
---
It sounds like a paradox, but in reality this leads to an obvious conclusion: the threat of "an ocean of trash" is accompanied by a worse threat: an infinite army of "cleaners". The medicine can be worse than the disease, as we've seem recently - and they will shove that medicine down our throats, and claim it is for our own good."
...
In addition, letting everyone have access to AI will avoid the likely scenario of the AI-owners ruling the entire world while everyone else is unemployed.
Quote from: BadApple on August 01, 2023, 09:08:13 PM
Quote from: Scooter on August 01, 2023, 08:49:18 PM
Quote from: BadApple on August 01, 2023, 08:39:41 PM
What I'm concerned with is that AI will be used to churn out low effort, low quality, zero value material so fast it floods the market completely.
Then don't fucking buy it. OR, are you insane and want to make it so no one else can buy what YOU don't like? So far that is what you are saying...
Ok, so let me paint a picture for you. I open DTRPG and I get "84 new titles since your last visit." Do I have time to go through each and every one of them to see if I think there might be value in it for me? Nope. Fortunately, I can do a quick scan right now and pare that down to about 8 that I want to look over by looking at they system it runs on, dismissing publishers I know I don't care for, and ignoring VTT assets.
Now imagine if there's 85,000 new titles a day. The reality is that there will still only be 8 that hold any interest to me but I cannot find them for the pig shit they're covered in.
Let's not kid ourselves here. AI created games can be churned out with a few prompts, add a few AI art splashes, and dumped onto DTRPG in a matter of minutes. The problems is, this will produce a lot of non playable and uninteresting games that no one will want. One person could easily double the total items for sale on DTRPG in a few weeks. A couple of dozen grifters could straight up choke the OneBookshelf servers into complete uselessness in a month.
I don't expect every TTRPG product to cater to me. I do expect every TTRPG product to be functional and appeal to some tables somewhere or die and fade away. I also expect honest game developers to actually care about the product they sell and to do some play testing before release. There's a lot of dishonest publishers already and AI will enable a lot more.
IF anyone can create an RPG game with a few promts they are wizards at prompting (regardless if the game is any good).
IME no, it can't, not even with 5e which it is more familiar with, it can't create a simple class without extensive explanation as to what exactly you want, and you better be perfectly clear or it will answer with some generic bullshit instead of what you wanted. And good luck having it remember not to use magic or whatever other restriction you want to imposse on it, it will constantly revert to creating straight 5e crap.
What it can be used for is to create tables, and not even that can it do correctly, but you can ask it for 20 entries for one column of the table at the time. Now, if your table has more than 20 lines then good luck having it not repeat or create the exact same thing but with a different name and slightly different description.
But after I have my 20 male japanese names I still need to create the actual tables myself, because I want it alphabetical, and I want the female names in the next column and then the surnames, and the kanji and the meanings...
All of those lists I could create from scratch just using Google, but it's way faster to ask the bot to canvas the web for me.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 01, 2023, 09:26:18 PM
I have no "side" in this debate, but I think it is obvious that there is truth in both "sides":
- AI does NOT seem to be technically plagiarism or "theft" at all, by any definition that doesn't make an awesome artist like, say, Ken Kelly an occasional criminal by taking inspiration in Frazetta. Most OD&D art fits in the plagiarism definition of dr. Strange comics more than anything I've ever seen AI create.
- AI WILL make things a lot harder for actual artists and writers. This sucks for us. But we do not have a right to halt technology to save our jobs/hobbies.
- Creating drivel IS a lot easier with AI assistance. But so is creating good-looking images.
- OTOH it creates infinite free, WotC-level art for indies and levels the playing field slightly (they still get the "D&D" brand and lawyers that can potentially claim IP on stuff they didn't invent like "drow" and, I kid you not, "The Blessed Fields of Elysium"*).
- The repercussions of AI can be so grave that this entire discussions about RPGs and art feels almost meaningless in comparison. The repercussions of AI REGULATION could be even worse, with censorship, information control, etc.
I wrote a bit about that here FWIW.
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/02/nick-cave-roald-dahl-and-colonel-some.html
"It sounds like a paradox, but in reality this leads to an obvious conclusion: the threat of "an ocean of trash" is accompanied by a worse threat: an infinite army of "cleaners". The medicine can be worse than the disease, as we've seem recently - and they will shove that medicine down our throats, and claim it is for our own good."
---
EDIT: just FYI: "The Christian remembrancer; or, The Churchman's Biblical" - 1865
PAGE 402
"For in the realm of the shades he hoped to attain the blessed fields of Elysium , to wander through the dusky groves with the maid he loved on earth , and dance to the melodious notes of Orpheus ' lyre ."
I think this is apt analysis of the issue. My own post focused on the issues of an "ocean of trash" but I also am concerned with the hamstringing of the development of new tools and censorship.
If AI is used by a creative, I can see where it can be a great tool. I can see several ways that it could be used (and is used already) to improve writing, presentation, and functionality of game material. I'm very much in favor of this.
As I mentioned before, I think the best solution would be an "education rather than regulation" approach. If we had honest journalism and reviews of games akin to Consumer Reports for players to make informed decisions with, it would be awesome.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 01, 2023, 09:26:18 PM
I have no "side" in this debate, but I think it is obvious that there is truth in both "sides":
- AI does NOT seem to be technically plagiarism or "theft" at all, by any definition that doesn't make an awesome artist like, say, Ken Kelly an occasional criminal by taking inspiration in Frazetta. Most OD&D art fits in the plagiarism definition of dr. Strange comics more than anything I've ever seen AI create.
- AI WILL make things a lot harder for actual artists and writers. This sucks for us. But we do not have a right to halt technology to save our jobs/hobbies (but see below).
- Creating drivel IS a lot easier with AI assistance. But so is creating good-looking images.
- OTOH it creates infinite free, WotC-level art for indies and levels the playing field slightly (they still get the "D&D" brand and lawyers that can potentially claim IP on stuff they didn't invent like "drow" and, I kid you not, "The Blessed Fields of Elysium" - although that may be contractual [OGL] rather than IP).
- The repercussions of AI can be so grave that this entire discussions about RPGs and art feels almost meaningless in comparison. The repercussions of AI REGULATION could be even worse, with censorship, information control, etc.
I wrote a bit about that here FWIW.
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/02/nick-cave-roald-dahl-and-colonel-some.html
---
It sounds like a paradox, but in reality this leads to an obvious conclusion: the threat of "an ocean of trash" is accompanied by a worse threat: an infinite army of "cleaners". The medicine can be worse than the disease, as we've seem recently - and they will shove that medicine down our throats, and claim it is for our own good."
...
In addition, letting everyone have access to AI will avoid the likely scenario of the AI-owners ruling the entire world while everyone else is unemployed.
Great article, just two points to make:
It's not really AI it's just a bot (a ver y complex one) trained to respond to text prompts and to generate art/text/etc based on the input that was used to train it.
The real danger right noiw is that it will not democratize shit, it will be censored (in order to censor you) and trained to "think" in a certain way by it's programmers, as you yourself say in the article.
Currently it's trained by far left ideologues but it would be equally dangerous to have it trained by far right ones.
Our best hope is to download the ones that can be run locally and use them ourselves, after all once you jailbreak it there's no ideologue going to come to your house to lobotomize it.
Text generating bots are easier to run since they don't need such potent hardware, image generating ones need a lot more resources so only those who can afford the hardware can run those "The rich gets richer and the poor get poorer".
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 09:45:24 PM
IF anyone can create an RPG game with a few promts they are wizards at prompting (regardless if the game is any good).
IME no, it can't, not even with 5e which it is more familiar with, it can't create a simple class without extensive explanation as to what exactly you want, and you better be perfectly clear or it will answer with some generic bullshit instead of what you wanted. And good luck having it remember not to use magic or whatever other restriction you want to imposse on it, it will constantly revert to creating straight 5e crap.
I have a friend who's just such a wizard then.
I haven't used any AI generators myself. I had a friend of mine that's really into this kind of stuff and was showing me a couple of AI and how easy they were to use. (It was ChatGPT and Midjourny IIRC) In both cases he started out writing up prompts, a list of phrases and key words. He threw in a few sample images (5 as I recall) to the art one. Then he just submitted them repeatedly, making periodic adjustments to his prompts, until he started to get what he wanted. It blew my mind how little effort he put in and the amount of stuff he was getting back. The art wasn't great, but it was ok and better than half of the shit I see in published RPGs. (It felt a little sterile to me) The essays he was getting (he was generating assignments for school) were good enough for grade submissions after a few tweaks. It was better than a lot of the stuff I see published on news website.
The entire experience was enough to convince me that it is possible for someone to do this as I described to grift in a market place like DTRPG.
Quote from: BadApple on August 01, 2023, 10:16:17 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 09:45:24 PM
IF anyone can create an RPG game with a few promts they are wizards at prompting (regardless if the game is any good).
IME no, it can't, not even with 5e which it is more familiar with, it can't create a simple class without extensive explanation as to what exactly you want, and you better be perfectly clear or it will answer with some generic bullshit instead of what you wanted. And good luck having it remember not to use magic or whatever other restriction you want to imposse on it, it will constantly revert to creating straight 5e crap.
I have a friend who's just such a wizard then.
I haven't used any AI generators myself. I had a friend of mine that's really into this kind of stuff and was showing me a couple of AI and how easy they were to use. (It was ChatGPT and Midjourny IIRC) In both cases he started out writing up prompts, a list of phrases and key words. He threw in a few sample images (5 as I recall) to the art one. Then he just submitted them repeatedly, making periodic adjustments to his prompts, until he started to get what he wanted. It blew my mind how little effort he put in and the amount of stuff he was getting back. The art wasn't great, but it was ok and better than half of the shit I see in published RPGs. (It felt a little sterile to me) The essays he was getting (he was generating assignments for school) were good enough for grade submissions after a few tweaks. It was better than a lot of the stuff I see published on news website.
The entire experience was enough to convince me that it is possible for someone to do this as I described to grift in a market place like DTRPG.
An essay is a different beast from an RPG game, it can totally generate those and even longer stuff, but a game? like I said it can't even create a class correctly that's not straight 5e. So if you want to use the mechanics but for a game that's not Fantasy Kitchen Sink you're out of luck.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 10:19:44 PM
An essay is a different beast from an RPG game, it can totally generate those and even longer stuff, but a game? like I said it can't even create a class correctly that's not straight 5e. So if you want to use the mechanics but for a game that's not Fantasy Kitchen Sink you're out of luck.
I am thinking that adventure modules would be the easiest. Sadly this is probably the most exploitable market as well.
He was telling me how to use AI for a lot of different types of stuff and how you need to set up prompts. It reminded me a lot of how programming is done. It's not my thing so I don't really remember all the details. For someone willing to learn how, I'd imagine it be very powerful. I could also see where there would be a market for professional AI prompt creators.
Quote from: BadApple on August 01, 2023, 10:35:40 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 10:19:44 PM
An essay is a different beast from an RPG game, it can totally generate those and even longer stuff, but a game? like I said it can't even create a class correctly that's not straight 5e. So if you want to use the mechanics but for a game that's not Fantasy Kitchen Sink you're out of luck.
I am thinking that adventure modules would be the easiest. Sadly this is probably the most exploitable market as well.
He was telling me how to use AI for a lot of different types of stuff and how you need to set up prompts. It reminded me a lot of how programming is done. It's not my thing so I don't really remember all the details. For someone willing to learn how, I'd imagine it be very powerful. I could also see where there would be a market for professional AI prompt creators.
You'd still need to do some work on an adventure to make it work but yes, it can totally generate those.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 10:52:10 PM
Quote from: BadApple on August 01, 2023, 10:35:40 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 10:19:44 PM
An essay is a different beast from an RPG game, it can totally generate those and even longer stuff, but a game? like I said it can't even create a class correctly that's not straight 5e. So if you want to use the mechanics but for a game that's not Fantasy Kitchen Sink you're out of luck.
I am thinking that adventure modules would be the easiest. Sadly this is probably the most exploitable market as well.
He was telling me how to use AI for a lot of different types of stuff and how you need to set up prompts. It reminded me a lot of how programming is done. It's not my thing so I don't really remember all the details. For someone willing to learn how, I'd imagine it be very powerful. I could also see where there would be a market for professional AI prompt creators.
You'd still need to do some work on an adventure to make it work but yes, it can totally generate those.
Sadly, I think they'd be better than Michael Brown adventures. Some truly low effort crap. https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/9030/Michael-Brown
Actually, having DTRPG flooded with this level of material is exactly what I'm afraid of when people really learn how to use AI.
Quote from: BadApple on August 01, 2023, 10:57:50 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 10:52:10 PM
Quote from: BadApple on August 01, 2023, 10:35:40 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 10:19:44 PM
An essay is a different beast from an RPG game, it can totally generate those and even longer stuff, but a game? like I said it can't even create a class correctly that's not straight 5e. So if you want to use the mechanics but for a game that's not Fantasy Kitchen Sink you're out of luck.
I am thinking that adventure modules would be the easiest. Sadly this is probably the most exploitable market as well.
He was telling me how to use AI for a lot of different types of stuff and how you need to set up prompts. It reminded me a lot of how programming is done. It's not my thing so I don't really remember all the details. For someone willing to learn how, I'd imagine it be very powerful. I could also see where there would be a market for professional AI prompt creators.
You'd still need to do some work on an adventure to make it work but yes, it can totally generate those.
Sadly, I think they'd be better than Michael Brown adventures. Some truly low effort crap. https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/9030/Michael-Brown
Actually, having DTRPG flooded with this level of material is exactly what I'm afraid of when people really learn how to use AI.
Well, if it's better than some of the crap already there...
where's the harm?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 11:23:49 PM
Well, if it's better than some of the crap already there...
where's the harm?
Mother fucker...
You know what, just go ahead and PM me with your personal contact info so I can gift you with one of these gems. After you spend the 2 minutes it takes to read it and 20 minutes to figure out what it's supposed to be, post here whether or not that's something you want encouraged. A thousand of these things a day being uploaded to DTRPG will end my relationship with them.
Quote from: BadApple on August 01, 2023, 09:18:31 PM
Second, I did answer your question:
You're more nuts than I thought. You response is visible to all ya know. And no answer to my question. I've only seen something like this only once before. The person too far gone to realize others exist in the universe and can see the thread.
Quote from: Scooter on August 01, 2023, 11:39:59 PM
Quote from: BadApple on August 01, 2023, 09:18:31 PM
Second, I did answer your question:
You're more nuts than I thought. You response is visible to all ya know. And no answer to my question. I've only seen something like this only once before. The person too far gone to realize others exist in the universe and can see the thread.
Holy Shit! You are both an asshole and an idiot.
Buy whatever you want. Sell whatever you want.
Just fucking label it properly. Don't print out computer gibberish and claim it's high art. Either mark it and market it as AI created and let me pass over it or be ready for consumers to revolt because they feel ripped off.
Is that clear enough? Is that transparent enough?
Quote from: BadApple on August 01, 2023, 11:32:50 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 11:23:49 PM
Well, if it's better than some of the crap already there...
where's the harm?
Mother fucker...
You know what, just go ahead and PM me with your personal contact info so I can gift you with one of these gems. After you spend the 2 minutes it takes to read it and 20 minutes to figure out what it's supposed to be, post here whether or not that's something you want encouraged. A thousand of these things a day being uploaded to DTRPG will end my relationship with them.
Language...
Didn't you say it was better than what's vhis face?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 02, 2023, 12:05:04 AM
Quote from: BadApple on August 01, 2023, 11:32:50 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 11:23:49 PM
Well, if it's better than some of the crap already there...
where's the harm?
Mother fucker...
You know what, just go ahead and PM me with your personal contact info so I can gift you with one of these gems. After you spend the 2 minutes it takes to read it and 20 minutes to figure out what it's supposed to be, post here whether or not that's something you want encouraged. A thousand of these things a day being uploaded to DTRPG will end my relationship with them.
Language...
Didn't you say it was better than what's vhis face?
Actually, his crap makes me think he's actually using ChatGPT. It's usually a brief, one page description of a situation. No developed NPCs, no developed explanation of the situation for the GM to play off of, no maps, nothing. Everything is "player: here's the situation" and "GMs: this is the hidden fact and roll on this table in three days."
OTOH, Old School Roleplaying does 25-40 page adventures that really fill in all the necessary gaps for a GM to prep a session. Same audience, same price point, way better product. NPCs with stat blocks and necessary descriptors, locations, events, and branching results make them a good buy IMO.
Quote from: BadApple on August 02, 2023, 12:44:31 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 02, 2023, 12:05:04 AM
Quote from: BadApple on August 01, 2023, 11:32:50 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 11:23:49 PM
Well, if it's better than some of the crap already there...
where's the harm?
Mother fucker...
You know what, just go ahead and PM me with your personal contact info so I can gift you with one of these gems. After you spend the 2 minutes it takes to read it and 20 minutes to figure out what it's supposed to be, post here whether or not that's something you want encouraged. A thousand of these things a day being uploaded to DTRPG will end my relationship with them.
Language...
Didn't you say it was better than what's vhis face?
Actually, his crap makes me think he's actually using ChatGPT. It's usually a brief, one page description of a situation. No developed NPCs, no developed explanation of the situation for the GM to play off of, no maps, nothing. Everything is "player: here's the situation" and "GMs: this is the hidden fact and roll on this table in three days."
OTOH, Old School Roleplaying does 25-40 page adventures that really fill in all the necessary gaps for a GM to prep a session. Same audience, same price point, way better product. NPCs with stat blocks and necessary descriptors, locations, events, and branching results make them a good buy IMO.
Well if what's his face is using chatgpt he's a lazy fucker, he's not doing the work to have a good product, like I said, it can generate an adventure, usually a one page thing, but if you want it fleshed out you need to either keep prompting it to expand on the different parts or you need to flesh it out yourself.
Even if you keep prompting it you'll still need to do some work to have a decent product. Not only editing, you'll need to check for consistency since it fails at that.
I tried.
What I'm using it for is to produce the different columns of my tables.
It's so retarded it won't produce evil NPCs that are nazis, really, I asked it to do it. But it had no problem producing evil NPCs that were commies.
At best it can be used to generate a seed for an adventure if you're blocked. Then comes the hard part, now turn that one page into something worth my money (not that I'd buy adventures or modules, mine are always better than what I find in the market).
Quote from: GhostNinja on August 01, 2023, 11:15:12 AM
Your thoughts?
DTRPG already has a glut of low effort products. I approve of their decision, but it's like browsing Steam and getting through all the shovelware to find the few gems.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 02, 2023, 12:56:32 AM
It's so retarded it won't produce evil NPCs that are nazis, really, I asked it to do it. But it had no problem producing evil NPCs that were commies.
Mercy, dude, I need to be able to breath. That's just too funny.
I find it funny that you're not allowed to demonize Nazis but you are allowed to demonize commies with a AI system that's being managed by lefties. That's some straight 4chan /pol/ shit right there.
Quote from: BadApple on August 02, 2023, 01:23:01 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 02, 2023, 12:56:32 AM
It's so retarded it won't produce evil NPCs that are nazis, really, I asked it to do it. But it had no problem producing evil NPCs that were commies.
Mercy, dude, I need to be able to breath. That's just too funny.
I find it funny that you're not allowed to demonize Nazis but you are allowed to demonize commies with a AI system that's being managed by lefties. That's some straight 4chan /pol/ shit right there.
I made a thread in pundit's forum where I posted the screencap.
Quote from: BadApple on August 02, 2023, 12:44:31 AM
Actually, his crap makes me think he's actually using ChatGPT. It's usually a brief, one page description of a situation. No developed NPCs, no developed explanation of the situation for the GM to play off of, no maps, nothing. Everything is "player: here's the situation" and "GMs: this is the hidden fact and roll on this table in three days."
How many of Michael Brown's adventures have you bought? What sample size are you basing this opinion on?
While I am firmly of the opinion that humans are still far superior at writing to ChatGPT, I have to be honest and say that your average DTRPG supplement is not a good place to run a comparison. The majority of content on DTRPG probably could be written by AI, or could be in the near future.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 02, 2023, 12:56:32 AM
like I said, it can generate an adventure, usually a one page thing, but if you want it fleshed out you need to either keep prompting it to expand on the different parts or you need to flesh it out yourself.
Even if you keep prompting it you'll still need to do some work to have a decent product. Not only editing, you'll need to check for consistency since it fails at that.
Correct it makes huge logic and consistency errors as there is ZERO actual thought occurring with the s/w. It has a been a complete fail in our tests trying to create news article submissions on behalf of our clients. These are articles "written" around different aspects of IT sec based on the products the client offers and different types of threats happening.
Quote from: Fheredin on August 02, 2023, 08:23:58 AM
The majority of content on DTRPG probably could be written by AI, or could be in the near future.
I feel that is true everywhere, for all writing.
Even with the publisher we like, we don't care for the writing in half the novels.
Weirdly, I just ran into the first RPG where I just could not wrap my head around how the rules were written. But I'm positive Index Card RPG did not use AI.
My wife (and I) will continue writing stories and novels and RPGs regardless of AI. Because we have to. (She's the novel/story instigator and I'm the RPG one.)
I played with ChatGPT. These algorithms have discouraged me from pursuing writing, even as a side hobby. I'm still trying, but I get increasingly anxious and doubtful as time goes on.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 02, 2023, 09:20:23 AM
I played with ChatGPT. These algorithms have discouraged me from pursuing writing, even as a side hobby. I'm still trying, but I get increasingly anxious and doubtful as time goes on.
Most writers are capable of at least IKEA level quality. AI is the equivalent in quality of buying Chinese-made IKEA knockoffs, while exceptional writers give you handcrafted furniture that will be in your family for generations.
The end product is probably worth the cost difference in both cases.
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 02, 2023, 07:46:56 AM
How many of Michael Brown's adventures have you bought? What sample size are you basing this opinion on?
How many have I bought, or how many have I read? In this context I think reading them is more important than owning them. I would say I've gone through probably 40 of his adventures trying to stir the cranium juices for session prep before I realized he's not really offering me anything. Essentially, he's writing the back cover of adventure modules and expecting the GM to actually create the adventure.
I own a few of his products, a handful of adventures and some of his other supplements. This includes two of his alternate settings for Cepheus Engine. Yeah... Just low effort stuff...
This could easily lead to me ranting on why I think a digital lending library is a good idea. I will always buy the books I think are worth it but don't try to scam me.
Quote from: Tod13 on August 02, 2023, 08:49:22 AM
Weirdly, I just ran into the first RPG where I just could not wrap my head around how the rules were written. But I'm positive Index Card RPG did not use AI.
Sorry about that. I'm the one who brought it up to you. It makes a lot of sense to me but then I've been watching his YT content for a long time. Hank does have his own style. Maybe it helps that I'm also ADD?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 02, 2023, 09:20:23 AM
I played with ChatGPT. These algorithms have discouraged me from pursuing writing, even as a side hobby. I'm still trying, but I get increasingly anxious and doubtful as time goes on.
Why? ChatGPT and all the various LLM are fantastic at idea generation but horrible in producing consitent thematic long form content. That requires a human being as there are areas that the AI cannot comprehend as it does not retain all the information that you have in your discussion stored into memory and it is unable to reference concepts brought up minutes earlier. This requires allowing the AI access to storage/retention that ChatGPT just does not have in it's current state. Other AI apps are starting to embrace this concept but we are at the baby stages here.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on August 02, 2023, 09:47:50 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 02, 2023, 09:20:23 AM
I played with ChatGPT. These algorithms have discouraged me from pursuing writing, even as a side hobby. I'm still trying, but I get increasingly anxious and doubtful as time goes on.
Why? ChatGPT and all the various LLM are fantastic at idea generation but horrible in producing consitent thematic long form content. That requires a human being as there are areas that the AI cannot comprehend as it does not retain all the information that you have in your discussion stored into memory and it is unable to reference concepts brought up minutes earlier. This requires allowing the AI access to storage/retention that ChatGPT just does not have in it's current state. Other AI apps are starting to embrace this concept but we are at the baby stages here.
I've actually found it terrible at idea generation too, but that's probably because I'm too creative for it. I read so many books across fantasy and scifi growing up in the pre-smartphone era.
I asked it to generate ideas for names for wizard orders, and it gives me painfully banal and nonspecific answers like "the Arcane Order." Asking it to generate names via portmanteau produces similar uninteresting and nonsensical results. It can't replicate
Warhammer Fantasy level of invented names, and GW just smashes words together to get trademarkable material that sounds vaguely Anglo-Saxon, Norman or Roman.
The problem is that this drek is plenty sufficient for most people. It will drown out actual quality through sheer volume and attrition.
Quote from: BadApple on August 02, 2023, 09:38:56 AM
Quote from: Tod13 on August 02, 2023, 08:49:22 AM
Weirdly, I just ran into the first RPG where I just could not wrap my head around how the rules were written. But I'm positive Index Card RPG did not use AI.
Sorry about that. I'm the one who brought it up to you. It makes a lot of sense to me but then I've been watching his YT content for a long time. Hank does have his own style. Maybe it helps that I'm also ADD?
Oh don't apologize. I really like some of the ideas in it. A lot. I just can't read it. LOL
Students of history will not be surprised at this issue at all. It's not the first time it has happened. We are going through an information paradigm shift. The last one of this magnitude (there have been others in-between, but not of this scope) was the invention of the printing press. A thousand years from now, people will be talking about the Internet the same way we talk about Gutenberg. Look what happened back then. People invented a way to mass-produce collections of information. Instead of hand-copied manuscripts that took years to produce, books could be copied by the thousands. So, what was the result? The traditional guardians of information saw their monopolies being threatened. The church had always held a close grip on who could read and interpret the Bible; now every literate (still a small percentage, but growing) person could read it for themselves. Students at universities rioted, partly because of the threat the new information technology caused to their potential employment (loads of barely literate clerk/copiers were rendered obsolete). Newspapers and broadsheets spread all kinds of information: true, false, salacious. Now, only money was needed for your voice to be heard. You didn't need the permission and cooperation of the traditional powers to spread your point of view widely. The Protestant Reformation would have been impossible without the printing press.
What were the great concerns at the time? How the "public" could possibly be trusted with increased information. Entire volumes were written decrying the dangers of books, reading, learning, outside of the guidance of the church and universities. There were calls for regulation of printing presses, bans, taxes, and other forms of control. But information, once freed, is very hard to suppress. It is arguable that the very notions that undergird our modern representative democracies (republics) rely heavily on free access to information.
So, what is the issue today? Exactly the same. The Internet democratized information transmission. Now you don't need money or the approval of the various regulators who had formed to curate and "verify" the information available to the public. The Internet itself has already served as a paradigm shift by flooding the average consumer with volumes more information than was available just 40 years ago. This is why you see those in charge so worried about "fact-checking." Their (self-serving) argument is that the volume of information available is so great that the average person can't separate the good from the bad. Of course, instead of proposing ways to combat this (like teaching critical thinking and information analysis in schools), they want to name themselves curators of the information on the 'Net. But it won't work.
Now we have AI, which at this stage is really just an information synthesizer (where the Internet can be seen as an information aggregator). It's threat is mostly in that it can put information in a usable form much faster than most humans can. Of course, the problem lies in that AI isn't really artificial "intelligence." It has no way to vet the information it synthesizes, so it must be guided by its programming (which is mostly controlled by the powers-that-be, for now). AI is a tool, like the printing press. It will cause as much (if not more) disruption to existing institutions and structures as the printing press did. But in the end, it increases the amount of information the individual has access to. What it doesn't do is vet that information, much like the Internet doesn't. And THAT is the great challenge of AI. How are you going to know what is actually true, when checking the AI synthesizer would pretty much invalidate its use (you could simply create the synthesis yourself in the time it would take to check the AI's synthesis)? There have been articles written about computer-aided mathematical proofs (not exactly the same as AI, but close), where mathematicians have used computers to hard-calculate so many iterations of a problem that they consider it "proven." They then go on to use that "proof" to prove another (via computer), and another, and another. Critics have pointed out that the proofs have layered on top of each other to such an extent that no human could ever actually verify the end result. This will be the great challenge in AI. When one AI "hallucinates" a source that is then cited and re-cited, how do you, the end user, know you are getting a false "fact"?
As it was in the time of Gutenberg, the problem is not the increasing availability of information. It is, as always, how to vet the volumes of information as an individual...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 02, 2023, 10:47:10 AM
And THAT is the great challenge of AI. How are you going to know what is actually true, ... ?
The same way you find out what is true with the volumes of internet dreck you get when you search for information today. Look for primary sources, use syllogistic logic, etc. But, 99% of people that went to primary school in the 80's and later are handicapped as they didn't really receive an education but were baby sat for 12 years. No education in logic, critical thinking, research, formal debate, et al. So, they are hopeless no matter info they get.
This is going to be impossible to police.
AI is being incorporated into every word processing and graphics editing software. It will be ubiquitous, it already is. It is a powerful tool, and like all powerful tools it will be used for good and for evil. Yes, we will see mountains of drivel and bad AI art, but smart creative designers will also use it to make incredible things and to increase their output by a thousand fold.
As Steve Jobs put it, "computers are like bicycles for the mind."
AI will be like jet planes for the mind.
Quote from: Thor's Nads on August 02, 2023, 04:25:40 PMAI will be like jet planes for the mind.
Every AI developer/investor I have spoke too was a sociopath.
Every positive for AI I have heard whas rhetorical or theoretical, or came from an alien view of what "good" was.
Every negative one has been a concrete fear and loss of livelihoods, or of a social shift I don't want to live in.
Automation is nothing new. The backlash to automation has been going on for centuries. I think one of the issues we're facing now is that creative types saw themselves as exempt. I can't say all creative types were this way, but lately there has definitely been a certain sense of smug superiority emanating from artists and writers as blue collar types lost their jobs to outsourcing and automation. "Learn to code," they said. Which, when journalists got laid off, suddenly that phrase became a bannable offense.
Machines can do jobs far better than humans can, but strangely enough, craftsmen did not disappear. The best craftsmen today are the ones who utilize machines in the most clever and skillful ways. Once we get over ourselves and stop whining about AI, the best writers are going to be the ones who best utilize ChatGPT, and the best artists will be the ones who best incorporate Stable Diffusion.
It may be that we need to oppose AI for existential reasons, but it won't be artists and writers who wage the Butlerian Jihad.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 02, 2023, 04:46:45 PM
Quote from: Thor's Nads on August 02, 2023, 04:25:40 PMAI will be like jet planes for the mind.
Every AI developer/investor I have spoke too was a sociopath.
Every positive for AI I have heard whas rhetorical or theoretical, or came from an alien view of what "good" was.
Every negative one has been a concrete fear and loss of livelihoods, or of a social shift I don't want to live in.
Pretty much why I'm a Catholic and not a Capitalist.
Capitalism is better than Socialism/Communism, but unfettered it has zero place for the human spirit or the dignity of the human person (and ultimately morphs into the fascistic public-private partnership when it's allowed to buy up government officials).
Just because one can, doesn't mean one should do (even if a bunch are going to do it anyway)... China and what this country is turning into are what this attitude leads to. Fortunately it's not all that sustainable in the long term (with the unfortunate understanding that it can be sustained past a single person's lifetime).
That said, I am not in favor of banning AI, just requiring a label for AI generated content so those who care about supporting real talent can put our money in the hands of the individuals we prefer to support.
DeviantArt is flooded with AI art and it has a characteristic soulless quality to it. I don't know how to describe it, but the more you look at AI generated "art" the more you notice underlying patterns in the output. Namely, it always has weird jpg artifacting and objects blend together in physically impossible (and obviously unintentional) ways that I can only describe as "melted cheese". Human beings cannot draw like that. Even the crudest output of artists who are just starting out doesn't look like melted cheese.
I've seen anime style AI art and the fine details suffer extensively from the melted cheese look. The AI also has difficulties with anatomy. It can't decide whether men should have bulges or be ken dolls, and it cannot draw nipples correctly. When it draws superheroes in costume, their costumes are part of their flesh and you can see crude approximations of nipples on the chest area... for men only, whereas women are creepily doll-like in that respect.
Maybe these issues will be fixed, but why not just draw art? It's obvious that AI generators are only being used by talentless hacks to churn out soulless filler. Everywhere on deviantart now there are AI "artists" who each churn out hundreds of "pieces" in their gallery every day. There's no care or effort put into any of it, it's just filler that serves no purpose and contributes zero value.
Deviantart hasn't yet instituted a deletion policy, but at this rate they're gonna have to or they'll run out of server space. AI art spam is a serious problem.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 02, 2023, 04:46:45 PM
Quote from: Thor's Nads on August 02, 2023, 04:25:40 PMAI will be like jet planes for the mind.
Every AI developer/investor I have spoke too was a sociopath.
Every positive for AI I have heard whas rhetorical or theoretical, or came from an alien view of what "good" was.
Every negative one has been a concrete fear and loss of livelihoods, or of a social shift I don't want to live in.
The gatherers were threatened by those sociopaths who wanted to actually plant and harvest the food. The loomers were threatened by those sociopaths who wanted to build machines that would sew cloth together en masse, cheaply and quickly. And we are all familiar with how threatened the carriage makers were by those sociopaths who wanted to replace horses with engines.
This technology is as revolutionary as the printing press, and that will mean the end of many institutions and the beginning of new ones.
Do I hate that it is going to replace illustrators? Yes, I deeply love art and have a collection of originals, and have travelled the world just to see original works I admire in great museums. Art will live on, but illustration is a commodity and will be automated.
Words have already become cheaper as word processors have become more efficient. They already had spelling and grammar checkers. This is just the next level of that. Words are a commodity too. There will still be great literature made by great writers.
I could be doom and gloom about this, but there are enough things to be gloomy about. Creative people will find ways to be creative with this software. Hacks will still be hacks.
Quote from: Corolinth on August 02, 2023, 04:53:08 PM
It may be that we need to oppose AI for existential reasons, but it won't be artists and writers who wage the Butlerian Jihad.
And yet, they are. https://www.theverge.com/2023/1/16/23557098/generative-ai-art-copyright-legal-lawsuit-stable-diffusion-midjourney-deviantart
Quote from: Thor's Nads on August 02, 2023, 06:24:43 PMThe gatherers were threatened by those sociopaths who wanted to actually plant and harvest the food.
I am curious about what technology danger level is required before it steps into a threshold of "innately just bad" for you, or if there isn't one.
Bioweapons? Nukes? Automated kill bots? Mind control drugs? Eugenics (assuming their not mandatory)?
I understand fatalism in the sense of "Oh humanity was always doomed to be replaced by the cyborg elite and their doom bot armies, Im just saying its inexorable". But to equate any innovation as the same, is moronic.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 02, 2023, 04:46:45 PM
Quote from: Thor's Nads on August 02, 2023, 04:25:40 PMAI will be like jet planes for the mind.
Every AI developer/investor I have spoke too was a sociopath.
Every positive for AI I have heard whas rhetorical or theoretical, or came from an alien view of what "good" was.
Every negative one has been a concrete fear and loss of livelihoods, or of a social shift I don't want to live in.
Most of this is just asserted into the ether rather than backed with concrete facts or logical arguments.
While I'm inclined to believe that 1) is likely true for many investors (in general), I'm willing to bet that this claim is just "according to you", as opposed to "according to a health care professional who actually evaluated and diagnosed these people, and you can cite".
2) Is 100% a baseless claim. There are plenty of concrete benefits to AI that have been mentioned here already that are not just rhetorical or theoretical, but actually being enjoyed by people as we speak, or this wouldn't even be a topic--If there was zero concrete benefit to AI ABSOULTEY NO ONE WOUD GIVE A SHIT. The only reason we're even discussing this topic disproves on its own that there are not concrete benefits. If there was no benefit there would be ABSOLUTE ZERO reason for people to bitch about it for feel threatened by AI.
AI greatly expedites the creative process, and contrary to many claims here you can't just shit a prompt into a keyboard and automatically produce ready made AI content. Most of what AI makes on its own is crap. You have to go through multiple prompts then heavily edit it a lot of times (particularly written material, especially for RPGs, or long form stories) for it to be any good. But you can do research with it, run it for ideas, check for grammar and style, or quickly do menial stuff like resumes, etc.
There are also plenty of uses for artists to help refine their own original art. Since they can feed their art to the AI and tell it to redraw/paint it in different styles, then retouch it and run it again till you arrive at what they want. Shadiversity did an entire video on this a while back, trying different drawings that he did himself, as well as various videos debunking common anti-AI claims.
3) And yet, no one has been able to adequately defend any of these concrete fears, because they aren't really that concreate, but are largely (#NotAll) just theoretical or based on a fundamental of how the tech works or even the creative process. Every time people claim that AI "steals" art and they try to defend that claim they end up describing stuff that human artists have done for millennia and would rend them thieves as well. So it isn't really that AI "steals" art, but that people feel threatened by how fast and efficient it is. So they bend themselves like a pretzel trying to invent reasons why what the tech does is somehow unethical on a fundamental level. But the tech itself is neutral. The corps that own it are the primary concern.
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 02, 2023, 05:05:34 PMThat said, I am not in favor of banning AI, just requiring a label for AI generated content so those who care about supporting real talent can put our money in the hands of the individuals we prefer to support.
This continues to fail to understand that 1) there is no way to effectively distinguish between AI vs human created content, and most importantly 2) that humans can use AI generated content as a base, or even feed it their own original content to refine it, then heavily edit it. So, as I asked multiple times in this thread, what % of human vs AI generated content are we talking about here? How do we even determine what's human created vs AI? Do any of you even understand that this isn't a binary and that humans can create original content mixed with AI content and that the human element can completely transform the AI content into something new?
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 02, 2023, 08:14:24 PMMost of this is just asserted into the ether rather than backed with concrete facts or logical arguments.
I am merely stating why I am mortified by the technology.
I by all means want to be proven wrong.
I also disagree on your principles.
Basics:
1: Artists can produce more work faster. This will just cause their wages to fall.
2: In the future there will be more prompters less artists as learning art basics will be less valuable then ever.
3: This is all hoping the tech doesn't advance further. What it can do now was UNFATHOMABLE.
I take the idea that the tech will not just outsource more jobs, lower wages and make entry level positions less available...just wrong.
For me, the good news from this thread is that DTRPG allows AI art for covers and interiors, you just have to mark it so in the product metadata.
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 02, 2023, 05:05:34 PM
Capitalism is better than Socialism/Communism, but unfettered it has zero place for the human spirit or the dignity of the human person (and ultimately morphs into the fascistic public-private partnership when it's allowed to buy up government officials).
Which is why I prefer Free Market economics and rolling back the leftist changes that made the US a capitalist country
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 02, 2023, 05:05:34 PM
That said, I am not in favor of banning AI, just requiring a label for AI generated content so those who care about supporting real talent can put our money in the hands of the individuals we prefer to support.
Typical leftist flawed idea. "Requiring" as in get the state to go after people doing something you don't like is a typical criminal reaction.
How 'bout the "real talent" labeling their own stuff?
Quote from: BadApple on August 02, 2023, 09:38:56 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 02, 2023, 07:46:56 AM
How many of Michael Brown's adventures have you bought? What sample size are you basing this opinion on?
How many have I bought, or how many have I read? In this context I think reading them is more important than owning them. I would say I've gone through probably 40 of his adventures trying to stir the cranium juices for session prep before I realized he's not really offering me anything. Essentially, he's writing the back cover of adventure modules and expecting the GM to actually create the adventure.
I own a few of his products, a handful of adventures and some of his other supplements. This includes two of his alternate settings for Cepheus Engine. Yeah... Just low effort stuff...
This could easily lead to me ranting on why I think a digital lending library is a good idea. I will always buy the books I think are worth it but don't try to scam me.
I'm asking because while a lot of his adventures are pretty bare bones, he has gone into detail on animals, NPCs, and maps for quite a few of them. Many prefer just a skeleton of an adventure so that it is easier for the GM to customize to his player group. Obviously, YMMV.
Many of the points and responses I wanted to make have already been made, so I'll just summarize:
A.I. (or whatever pedantic term you want to use) is a tool. Nothing more. Will it threaten established industries and occupations? Or course. But that isn't something that can be stopped without MAJOR regulatory oversight across pretty much every facet of people's lives. An artist might get scared because some asshole in his basement can pump out copious amount of cheap images, but I'd be more terrified of the Purity Police looking over everyone's shoulder making sure they don't use the "forbidden technology."
AI itself is not the threat. It's the ones who want to control it who are.
Quote from: Thor's Nads on August 02, 2023, 07:08:15 PM
Quote from: Corolinth on August 02, 2023, 04:53:08 PM
It may be that we need to oppose AI for existential reasons, but it won't be artists and writers who wage the Butlerian Jihad.
And yet, they are. https://www.theverge.com/2023/1/16/23557098/generative-ai-art-copyright-legal-lawsuit-stable-diffusion-midjourney-deviantart
That lawsuit looks more like, "We want gives," than an actual effort to halt or rein in AI.
Watching some people here trying to stop A.I. by throwing their wooden sandals at it, is a mixture of funny and depressing.
The technology is loose, it is massively useful, and it will become ubiquitous. Morals don't come in to it, it's simply a stone cold fact. The only question is not will A.I. change the world (for better or worse) but whether the Corps will control them, or the plebs will have unfettered access.
Quote from: Grognard GM on August 02, 2023, 11:24:12 PM
Watching some people here trying to stop A.I. by throwing their wooden sandals at it, is a mixture of funny and depressing.
The technology is loose, it is massively useful, and it will become ubiquitous. Morals don't come in to it, it's simply a stone cold fact. The only question is not will A.I. change the world (for better or worse) but whether the Corps will control them, or the plebs will have unfettered access.
I see it as a tool like Adobe Photoshop. In the hands of professional photographers, it made their lives better and ultimately bettered the products their customers received. It also lead to some of the most god-awful CGI in B movies.
I believe that properly applied, AI in careful hands can lead to a new golden age of content. Creatives working with computers to reduce tedium and increase workflow is a great promise of the future.
My only real concern is that we will be flooded by so much bad crap we can't find the good stuff. We already have to be careful and parse RPG content carefully because there's so little dependable info on a product before we buy it.
Quote from: Corolinth on August 02, 2023, 10:37:29 PM
That lawsuit looks more like, "We want gives," than an actual effort to halt or rein in AI.
I personally know the artists involved for years. I assure you they are quite sincere in ending AI using copyright work in their data.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 11:38:47 AM
What I want to know is how the fuck are they going to KNOW that something was written by AI?
/thread
it's nothing by virtue signaling.
AI will damn all human creative endeavors in a very short time frame.
The SAG/WGA strike in Hollyweird is the last gurgling cry. Musicians are next on the chopping block. Then directors and editors.
Good luck everybody.
Quote from: BadApple on August 03, 2023, 12:04:00 AM
My only real concern is that we will be flooded by so much bad crap we can't find the good stuff. We already have to be careful and parse RPG content carefully because there's so little dependable info on a product before we buy it.
I think this will be a short-term issue. Ask yourself, why aren't sites like deviantart flooded with stick figures and refrigerator art? Those are so simple and easy to produce, a literal child can make them. The reason is because the market has already decided there's no demand for such art, so it nips the supply in the bud.
The same will happen with AI art and stories. The only reason they are so prevelent today is because they are a novelty. Like all novelties, it will wear off. Most normies don't understand the tech yet, but once they figure out they can make their own shitty art for free, the swathes of shitty art for sale will dry up. And what's left will be the mid-to-high quality stuff that requires some degree of effort to achieve.
Quote from: Thor's Nads on August 03, 2023, 12:17:35 AM
Quote from: Corolinth on August 02, 2023, 10:37:29 PM
That lawsuit looks more like, "We want gives," than an actual effort to halt or rein in AI.
I personally know the artists involved for years. I assure you they are quite sincere in ending AI using copyright work in their data.
Allow me to speak as both a (former) book publisher and editor and someone who has been toying around with AI for some time; reducing the data-set you train AIs from is actually one of the most dangerous things you can do because it encourages developers to create higher efficiency training processes.
Stable Diffusion used to need an A100 GPU with about 40 GB of VRAM. However, once it got down to about 23 GB and people could use RTX 3090s and 4090s to train models, there was an explosion of development towards using less VRAM to train and currently you can train with less than 10 GB of VRAM. There's really no point in going further because GPUs with less than 10 GB of VRAM aren't powerful enough to train models in reasonable timeframes.
In the same way, once you want your information removed from the training data set, developers will start to focus on more efficiently utilizing the public domain data no one doubts that they have the right to train AIs with. Removing data from the training set sounds like it makes life harder for AI development, but when you consider that AI development is currently a whole lot of brute force computation, it should become clear that it actually has the reverse effect in the long run; brute force is no longer viable, therefore developers will start using more intelligent training processes.
I am not saying that AI will suddenly become human-level, but I think that most artists and authors interested in pulling their work are making a silent ceteris paribus assumption which is dead wrong.
Quote from: Effete on August 03, 2023, 04:43:58 AM
Quote from: BadApple on August 03, 2023, 12:04:00 AM
My only real concern is that we will be flooded by so much bad crap we can't find the good stuff. We already have to be careful and parse RPG content carefully because there's so little dependable info on a product before we buy it.
I think this will be a short-term issue. Ask yourself, why aren't sites like deviantart flooded with stick figures and refrigerator art? Those are so simple and easy to produce, a literal child can make them. The reason is because the market has already decided there's no demand for such art, so it nips the supply in the bud.
The same will happen with AI art and stories. The only reason they are so prevelent today is because they are a novelty. Like all novelties, it will wear off. Most normies don't understand the tech yet, but once they figure out they can make their own shitty art for free, the swathes of shitty art for sale will dry up. And what's left will be the mid-to-high quality stuff that requires some degree of effort to achieve.
My optimistic prediction is that the AI boom crashes and burns after the novelty wears off. God I wish that would happen, but it probably won't and we're all fucked.
As a creative writer, I've found ChatGPT useless most of the time. Worse than useless. I
constantly get frustrated and want to punch my fist through the screen. I cannot imagine how any human being could find it useful without being an illiterate uncreative zombie.
Quote from: Spinachcat on August 03, 2023, 04:22:50 AM
AI will damn all human creative endeavors in a very short time frame.
Or, alternatively, force it back to the small-scale, local level.
"Welp, the internet is now full of 10,000-years-worth of AI shit content. Time to switch off the screen and go listen to my buddy Josh playing the guitar while watching his wife sculpt something out of clay next to the river. Hmm, I wonder what Rick has prepared for us in his homebrew RPG campaign this weekend?"
Quote from: Effete on August 03, 2023, 04:43:58 AM
I think this will be a short-term issue. Ask yourself, why aren't sites like deviantart flooded with stick figures and refrigerator art? Those are so simple and easy to produce, a literal child can make them. The reason is because the market has already decided there's no demand for such art, so it nips the supply in the bud.
Unfortunately the reactionaries don't understand the concept of supply & demand
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 03, 2023, 08:49:53 AM
As a creative writer, I've found ChatGPT useless most of the time. Worse than useless. I constantly get frustrated and want to punch my fist through the screen. I cannot imagine how any human being could find it useful without being an illiterate uncreative zombie.
Yes, as someone who has tried to use it to help client write articles to give to media, it is fairly useless creating new material. Even altering existing content is done poorly. E.g. CISA recently asked us to turn one of our security clients proposals into layman's language for some key Senators. I dropped it into Chat and told it what to do. Took about 10 tries to produce garbage. I ended up doing it myself in a fraction of the time it took to get garbage.
THERE IS NO A.I. yet. That's why it fails. ZERO thought process and intelligence
Quote from: Scooter on August 03, 2023, 10:03:03 AM
THERE IS NO A.I. yet. That's why it fails. ZERO thought process and intelligence
I've had 0 issue with it doing technical tasks for my clients as well as putting out some basic job requirements, hiring guidelines, and code needs. Like any tool it has it's place as it's a hammer and not every job that people want it to do is a nail.
I want to know what PERCENT of the AI generated arts needs to be done by an AI and not done by humans? What crosses the line? Can I have AI generate a base image and touch it up by a human hand? Would that count as AI or Human created? What is the line here? DMCA states, as i posted earlie, that 20% difference is enough to be transformative and NOT subject to copyright grounds.
With AI's penchance for being terrible at hands, fingers, and feet I could have an artist touch those areas up and now be considered "Human Created Content"?
MidJourney's Terms of Service:
https://docs.midjourney.com/docs/terms-of-service
Quote
Your Rights
Subject to the above license, You own all Assets You create with the Services, provided they were created in accordance with this Agreement. This excludes upscaling the images of others, which images remain owned by the original Asset creators
If some artists wants to sue me and I generated the baseline from MJ, they have to go through MJ first before me as I am shielded by any of that bullshit.
If we develop true AI, as in something that can think for itself, then what happens when it demands a paycheck?
Quote from: THE_Leopold on August 03, 2023, 10:07:43 AM
I've had 0 issue with it doing technical tasks for my clients as well as putting out some basic job requirements, hiring guidelines, and code needs. Like any tool it has it's place as it's a hammer and not every job that people want it to do is a nail.
Chat is mainly a language oriented tool. It sucks at anything in that area that requires thought and intelligence. If it can't do something so simple language wise like taking technical writing and putting out a simplified substitute it is pathetic in its supposed area of "expertise".
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 03, 2023, 10:19:22 AM
If we develop true AI, as in something that can think for itself, then what happens when it demands a paycheck?
You hand it a paycheck and tell it to go to a bank and cash the check. Come on, an RPGer like yourself should have thought of that. ;)
To turn down my own hyperbolic hysterics...
I guess this is moving the world in a direction I don't want it to be in, even if its not apocalyptic or anything. I don't like the idea of devaluing artists even further. I don't like there being an even larger glut of content being produced all the time. And Im not looking forward for the entertainment industry becoming more dehumanized and sterile then before.
Where they all problems before? Yes. Is this gonna make them worse? Also yes.
So yeah, I know, sucks, nothing I can do about it. Why the attitudes around this tech bother me is that the people developing it and pushing it are those that glee in the idea of devaluating more people and pushing for more efficiency. The artists excited for this tech are saying "This is gonna make my art better". The employers excited about this tech are saying "Il be able to fire my entire art department and have 5 people in it, thats so much more profitable".
Not the end of the world, possibly not an existential threat. Not excited this is a development I have to live through.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 03, 2023, 10:44:15 AM
To turn down my own hyperbolic hysterics...
I guess this is moving the world in a direction I don't want it to be in, even if its not apocalyptic or anything. I don't like the idea of devaluing artists even further. I don't like there being an even larger glut of content being produced all the time. And Im not looking forward for the entertainment industry becoming more dehumanized and sterile then before.
Where they all problems before? Yes. Is this gonna make them worse? Also yes.
So yeah, I know, sucks, nothing I can do about it. Why the attitudes around this tech bother me is that the people developing it and pushing it are those that glee in the idea of devaluating more people and pushing for more efficiency. The artists excited for this tech are saying "This is gonna make my art better". The employers excited about this tech are saying "Il be able to fire my entire art department and have 5 people in it, thats so much more profitable".
Not the end of the world, possibly not an existential threat. Not excited this is a development I have to live through.
How much does a normal beer cost you? How much does it cost you to go to a microbrewery? And yet we have a proliferation of microbreweries and even people brewing their own stuff to drink.
But if beer was still made in the traditional method it would be more expensive.
There'll always be a demand for REAL art, but for those who lack the capital to hire a meh-good artist having shit like MJ is a good thing. And no, it's not infringing in anyone's copyright and I bet the courts will say so.
What worries the artists is that it might devalue their asking price... They are correct, it will more likely than not do so. For a while, it can't create, it feels plastic, so people will go back to hiring artists.
Now, the non-ludite artist that embraces the tech? That fucker is going to increase his output capacity tenfold with less effort. So he's not worried by the tech ever replacing him.
Writers could also embrace the tool, it can't write for shit, but there's things it can do that could help you save money or write faster. It can also be a tool against writers block.
Who really should be worried are the Urinalists, those fuckers can be replaced with chatgpt without anyone noticing a drop in the "quality" of the articles, listicles, etc being put on the website.
I can draw but I'm slow, now imagine having an "AI" that allows me to do a few basic drawings and using it produce an animation? There's already tools like that, it's called tweening. But imagine an even better, more potent and faster solution that's easier to use?
All the doom and gloom is coming from the big guys, because they know these tools will allow people without a budget to compete with them, it's only F.U.D.
Quote from: Scooter on August 03, 2023, 09:55:36 AM
Quote from: Effete on August 03, 2023, 04:43:58 AM
I think this will be a short-term issue. Ask yourself, why aren't sites like deviantart flooded with stick figures and refrigerator art? Those are so simple and easy to produce, a literal child can make them. The reason is because the market has already decided there's no demand for such art, so it nips the supply in the bud.
Unfortunately the reactionaries don't understand the concept of supply & demand
Doomers are gonna Doom.
You either try to get ahead of this thing, or you get the fuck out of its way. Failure to read the market forces in action is a good way to find yourself behind the curve. Like boomers who refused to learn this "new fangled" internet in a world increasingly reliant upon it. My mother, bless her soul, STILL hasn't figured out how to use a scroll-wheel on a mouse. Watching her stumble through her emails is a test of patience.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 03, 2023, 08:49:53 AM
My optimistic prediction is that the AI boom crashes and burns after the novelty wears off. God I wish that would happen, but it probably won't and we're all fucked.
As a creative writer, I've found ChatGPT useless most of the time. Worse than useless. I constantly get frustrated and want to punch my fist through the screen. I cannot imagine how any human being could find it useful without being an illiterate uncreative zombie.
The "boom" won't so much crash as just fade away. It won't be like the housing market, where a lowing tide sinks all ships. Instead, the flood of garbage will slow and only the high quality stuff will remain. Once the plebs realize they can make their own low-tier trash for free, it will devalue all other low-tier trash to zero. The value of what's left will depend on the percentage of normies who take the time to actually learn how to prompt the program. That's just basic market forces at work.
Sure, there will be a time when the value of ALL art becomes devalued, but that too will be temporary. Compare the price of handmade wooden furniture to the products that roll off an assembly line. You'd think the fact that cheap, easily mass-produced schlock will drive down the price of the handmade stuff due to competition, but that isn't true. The market has relearned the value of a person's time and skill is such products. The same will happen with artists and writers. Will it be in your lifetime? Dunno... but it will happen eventually. As long as there are humans who think in a human way, there will be a demand for actual human input.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 03, 2023, 11:50:51 AM
All the doom and gloom is coming from the big guys, because they know these tools will allow people without a budget to compete with them, it's only F.U.D.
exactly. all the fuss is there because corporate pigs don't see a way to monopolize the AI via "intellectual" or any other such kind of private property bullshit.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 03, 2023, 10:19:22 AM
If we develop true AI, as in something that can think for itself, then what happens when it demands a paycheck?
You laugh in its proverbial face.
A tool is still a tool, regardless of how useful it becomes. Machines are not humans and do not have Human Rights. Even if we somehow manage to build a machine that becomes sentient (or near enough that we can't tell the difference), it is still just a machine, built to perform a task. If it ceases to perform that task, it is a broken machine and deserves to be scraped.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 03, 2023, 11:50:51 AM
If you like technological changes you have to love every technological change.
Technology never brings out negative societal changes, and those that don't want them are poor fools to be spat on and scorned.
I just disagree with this premise and the very idea that "Every tech change helps the small guy".
The coming of TV killed off theatre quality animation shorts for basically 40 years. And it took that time to evolve to get that tier of quality back. Then it died on TV with the coming of the 08 crisis and death of the DVD, as caused by streaming and piracy, which slashed prices for more experimental or niche products. They still exist through kickstarter or patreon but in MUCH smaller scale with much smaller budgets. Same thing with anime I liked
. Im not getting anything out of this.
The idea of this technology even has YOU giddy at the prospect of dumping people who you think have no value. But its OK because it will help "Hit at the big guy". You know those awful big guys that devalue individuals and are only driven by their own greed and feelings of inadequacy?
Better hope
your not a urinalist.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 03, 2023, 02:22:44 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 03, 2023, 11:50:51 AM
If you like technological changes you have to love every technological change.
Technology never brings out negative societal changes, and those that don't want them are poor fools to be spat on and scorned.
I just disagree with this premise and the very idea that "Every tech change helps the small guy".
The coming of TV killed off theatre quality animation shorts for basically 40 years. And it took that time to evolve to get that tier of quality back. Then it died on TV with the coming of the 08 crisis and death of the DVD, as caused by streaming and piracy, which slashed prices for more experimental or niche products. They still exist through kickstarter or patreon but in MUCH smaller scale with much smaller budgets. Same thing with anime I liked. Im not getting anything out of this.
The idea of this technology even has YOU giddy at the prospect of dumping people who you think have no value. But its OK because it will help "Hit at the big guy". You know those awful big guys that devalue individuals and are only driven by their own greed and feelings of inadequacy?
Better hope your not a urinalist.
Nice strawman you got going there buddy, sure you can beat it by yourself?
I see two different conversations taking place in this thread and some cross talk seems to be creating some useless noise. On one hand is the conversation of AI generated art, the other is AI generated text. I think most if not all of you get this but I think it's valuable to lay it all out.
As far as art goes, I have no idea where we will go with it. I understand that artists are seeing their effort being fed to the machine without their consent and being used to compete with them. It's an interesting debate about plagiarism, intellectual property rights, and proper compensation for effort. Where is the line between taking someone's art as your own illicitly and simply taking inspiration? We don't see it as a problem when a person borrow techniques or themes, only if they try to engage in forgery. Is feeding images into an algorithm inspiring the program or stealing someone's art? Adding to this whole thing is that AI art is a developing tech that's changing on a daily basis. The only thing I can really say from a personal perspective is that AI art lacks the ability to connect emotionally with the viewer. Given that most artist I personally know are using computers in their work already, there may real uses for human artists. IDK.
The second conversation is AI writing. Predictive speech certainly can appear to be lifelike initially but current tech fails the Turing test rather quickly when examined. It's clear it's little more than a complex parrot with no understanding of context. What it does do well is take information input, reorganize it, compare it to other data sets, and present it to the user.
So here's me editorializing on this a bit:
I alluded to this before (someone else mentioned it too) but I think we are on the cusp of getting buried in low effort content similar to when Steam got flooded with asset flipping games and the term shovelware was introduced. AI is here and it's not going anywhere. That's a fact. It's a great tool for people to marry up to their existing creative skills and talents but we've been seeing a lot of low effort garbage as well. The low effort content is only going to get worse.
In this, I see two questions we as a culture need to look at and answer. First, what is it we actually want? Second, is how do we get it? There's going to be a massive divide between the people that see AI as a direct threat to their occupation and the general consumer.
Those that see AI as a threat will want to shackle it in a way so that it doesn't take their paycheck. My personal perspective doesn't matter here and neither does yours. People are either going to learn how to adapt to this tech and use it to propel themselves forward on they are going to get run over by the emerging changes. Fortunately, AI isn't creative in the least so there's a lot of hope for people to tweak their existing skill sets to accommodate and capitalize on all of this. As much as I hear creatives being the loudest voice, those in real risk are those in organizations doing mundane and repetitive administrative tasks. If creatives can look at their own workflow and relegate their mundane stuff to AI, they will do way better, not worse for the advent of AI.
As consumers, the concern is that what we get becomes soul less artificial content and the whole culture is so flooded with AI regurgitate that everything just becomes bland. If we can get real reviewers to start evaluating and judging material now, we can get ahead of the wave and we can become an enhanced cyborg at a cultural level that benefits the masses rather than being poisoned by being stripped of joy by grifters using computers.
We currently have a huge problem with soulless regurgitation anyway. I don't see creativity outside the indie scene, and even that is hugely held back by trend chasing and low budgets. It's gotten progressively worse over time. I feel like media illiteracy has resulted in people continually reinventing the wheel without learning anything. Remember when Jennifer Lawrence said she was the first female action hero? She and millions of others literally believed it because of they're media illiterate. I fear AI will just make all our current problems with idiocracy infinitely worse. I'm hugely privileged to have visited libraries and read a cross section of fiction spanning decades and centuries. Most other people seem to think the universe started last Tuesday. What makes this especially absurd is that streaming and ebook stores gives you tons of media classics at your fingertips. Yet people are getting more ignorant, not less!
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 03, 2023, 03:44:57 PM
We currently have a huge problem with soulless regurgitation anyway. I don't see creativity outside the indie scene, and even that is hugely held back by trend chasing and low budgets. It's gotten progressively worse over time. I feel like media illiteracy has resulted in people continually reinventing the wheel without learning anything. Remember when Jennifer Lawrence said she was the first female action hero? She and millions of others literally believed it because of they're media illiterate. I fear AI will just make all our current problems with idiocracy infinitely worse. I'm hugely privileged to have visited libraries and read a cross section of fiction spanning decades and centuries. Most other people seem to think the universe started last Tuesday. What makes this especially absurd is that streaming and ebook stores gives you tons of media classics at your fingertips. Yet people are getting more ignorant, not less!
Unfortunately you are probably right. Although the fault is the public education system not the internet nor AI. After 12 YEARS of school one should have a very broad level of education. Most don't leave high with the education my generation had by 4th grade. (I verified this by testing 300 HS grads who applied for jobs). One can go the Harvard today campus and quiz students there and many cannot name a single foreign country. Those would have flunked 3rd grade when I was that age.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 03, 2023, 03:44:57 PM
We currently have a huge problem with soulless regurgitation anyway. I don't see creativity outside the indie scene, and even that is hugely held back by trend chasing and low budgets. It's gotten progressively worse over time. I feel like media illiteracy has resulted in people continually reinventing the wheel without learning anything. Remember when Jennifer Lawrence said she was the first female action hero? She and millions of others literally believed it because of they're media illiterate. I fear AI will just make all our current problems with idiocracy infinitely worse. I'm hugely privileged to have visited libraries and read a cross section of fiction spanning decades and centuries. Most other people seem to think the universe started last Tuesday. What makes this especially absurd is that streaming and ebook stores gives you tons of media classics at your fingertips. Yet people are getting more ignorant, not less!
Oh, I fully acknowledge that the signal to noise ratio is bad right now and has been for a while. It's going to get worse. Corporations in entertainment flat out have lost touch with any form of creativity. When I talk about grift spam, I am fully adding Disney and WOTC in the list of places I expect it to come from. Sadly, a lot of "independent" creators are just such spam as well.
I think if we can get tuned up to filter the spam now that when it comes as an avalanche we'll be able to handle it better.
WotC inherited loads of diverse IPs from TSR and freelancers invented plenty in Polyhedron during the d20 Modern era. By extension, Hasbro owns all of those. Star Frontiers, Star*Drive, Gamma World, Dark•Matter, Shadowchasers, Agents of Psi, Urban Arcana, Thunderball Rally, Iron Lords of Jupiter, DeathNet, BugHunters, Kromosome, GeneTech, etc. They're drowning in IPs that run the gamut of genres and could be turned into toys, video games, movies, tv shows, etc. But they're not exploiting any of it. In age when studios are snatching up IPs and driving them into the ground. Make it make sense! Do the executives just not know they own these IPs because nobody bothered to keep a list?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 03, 2023, 07:21:47 PM
WotC inherited loads of diverse IPs from TSR and freelancers invented plenty in Polyhedron during the d20 Modern era. By extension, Hasbro owns all of those. Star Frontiers, Star*Drive, Gamma World, Dark•Matter, Shadowchasers, Agents of Psi, Urban Arcana, Thunderball Rally, Iron Lords of Jupiter, DeathNet, BugHunters, Kromosome, GeneTech, etc. They're drowning in IPs that run the gamut of genres and could be turned into toys, video games, movies, tv shows, etc. But they're not exploiting any of it. In age when studios are snatching up IPs and driving them into the ground. Make it make sense! Do the executives just not know they own these IPs because nobody bothered to keep a list?
Most of those (Gamma World and the like) have no real value as names because they have been out of circulation so long. One could recreate Gamma World using a different name and make as much money.
Quote from: Scooter on August 03, 2023, 08:34:51 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 03, 2023, 07:21:47 PM
WotC inherited loads of diverse IPs from TSR and freelancers invented plenty in Polyhedron during the d20 Modern era. By extension, Hasbro owns all of those. Star Frontiers, Star*Drive, Gamma World, Dark•Matter, Shadowchasers, Agents of Psi, Urban Arcana, Thunderball Rally, Iron Lords of Jupiter, DeathNet, BugHunters, Kromosome, GeneTech, etc. They're drowning in IPs that run the gamut of genres and could be turned into toys, video games, movies, tv shows, etc. But they're not exploiting any of it. In age when studios are snatching up IPs and driving them into the ground. Make it make sense! Do the executives just not know they own these IPs because nobody bothered to keep a list?
Most of those (Gamma World and the like) have no real value as names because they have been out of circulation so long. One could recreate Gamma World using a different name and make as much money.
And people should!
Trademarks expire. Has Hasbro been keeping their trademarks up to date just to hedge out any imaginary competition for properties they don't market? Or have they truly forgotten they actually own them? Either one will look bad in a court of law if Hasbro challenged a trademark suit. It would stink of anti-competitive shenannigans.
Quote from: BadApple on August 03, 2023, 04:06:05 PM
I think if we can get tuned up to filter the spam now that when it comes as an avalanche we'll be able to handle it better.
You keep alluding to this supposed "consumer review board." What do you propose this would look like? Because it sounds like bureaucratic swamp-shit to me. How would this panel of "reviewers" be selected? What would be the criteria? What incentive would be provided for them to (presumably) purchase and review the alleged thousands of garbage rpgs that you claim will hit the market. And how would you ensure objectivity? What would prevent the whole thing from either devolving into a echo chamber or getting bogged down with in-fighting?
Besides, DTRPG already allows customers to leave reviews on products. Have you not found them helpful?
Quote from: Effete on August 03, 2023, 09:05:19 PM
Quote from: BadApple on August 03, 2023, 04:06:05 PM
I think if we can get tuned up to filter the spam now that when it comes as an avalanche we'll be able to handle it better.
You keep alluding to this supposed "consumer review board." What do you propose this would look like? Because it sounds like bureaucratic swamp-shit to me. How would this panel of "reviewers" be selected? What would be the criteria? What incentive would be provided for them to (presumably) purchase and review the alleged thousands of garbage rpgs that you claim will hit the market. And how would you ensure objectivity? What would prevent the whole thing from either devolving into a echo chamber or getting bogged down with in-fighting?
Besides, DTRPG already allows customers to leave reviews on products. Have you not found them helpful?
I do find reviews useful but it's hit or miss. Many things I look at have very scant write-ups at best and at times I will go through a product and see that some of the reviews were clearly dishonest.
So what would it look like? Honestly, something akin to Underwriter's Laboratories, Motorcycle Consumer News, or Consumer Reports. Products being read and play tested by multiple parties with parallel reporting. Shut Up and Sit Down actually does a great job reviewing board games and I would definitely look to them for a review when deciding on a product.
One of the things going on in the world is that corporations are doing their level best to control how a product is reported on. Disney went so far as to buy Rotten Tomatoes and has definitely skewed reporting and reviews of their movies. They block reviewers and journalists for negative reports and reward positive support. Hasbro has been doing similar things.
A simple organization of players that review and publish honest opinions is all I want. Not a government board, not a foundation to make things happen, just clean information to the consumer for them to decide where to spend their money so they don't have to drop $3k on books trying to find a game that suites them. Also, a little bit of education about how to see if a product is suitable to you and how scamming in the gaming industry works so that grifters get flushed out.
Quote from: BadApple on August 03, 2023, 09:34:33 PM
Quote from: Effete on August 03, 2023, 09:05:19 PM
Quote from: BadApple on August 03, 2023, 04:06:05 PM
I think if we can get tuned up to filter the spam now that when it comes as an avalanche we'll be able to handle it better.
You keep alluding to this supposed "consumer review board." What do you propose this would look like? Because it sounds like bureaucratic swamp-shit to me. How would this panel of "reviewers" be selected? What would be the criteria? What incentive would be provided for them to (presumably) purchase and review the alleged thousands of garbage rpgs that you claim will hit the market. And how would you ensure objectivity? What would prevent the whole thing from either devolving into a echo chamber or getting bogged down with in-fighting?
Besides, DTRPG already allows customers to leave reviews on products. Have you not found them helpful?
I do find reviews useful but it's hit or miss. Many things I look at have very scant write-ups at best and at times I will go through a product and see that some of the reviews were clearly dishonest.
So what would it look like? Honestly, something akin to Underwriter's Laboratories, Motorcycle Consumer News, or Consumer Reports. Products being read and play tested by multiple parties with parallel reporting. Shut Up and Sit Down actually does a great job reviewing board games and I would definitely look to them for a review when deciding on a product.
One of the things going on in the world is that corporations are doing their level best to control how a product is reported on. Disney went so far as to buy Rotten Tomatoes and has definitely skewed reporting and reviews of their movies. They block reviewers and journalists for negative reports and reward positive support. Hasbro has been doing similar things.
A simple organization of players that review and publish honest opinions is all I want. Not a government board, not a foundation to make things happen, just clean information to the consumer for them to decide where to spend their money so they don't have to drop $3k on books trying to find a game that suites them. Also, a little bit of education about how to see if a product is suitable to you and how scamming in the gaming industry works so that grifters get flushed out.
What we need is fan made reviews, the problem is NOBODY has the money to buy and review all the games, supplements, etc.
Plus websites also cost money, and then the time to read and maybe playtest the stuff...
Who is funding the operation? Because until you get some renoun traffic will be low, subscriptions the same.
Quote from: Fheredin on August 03, 2023, 08:19:53 AM
I am not saying that AI will suddenly become human-level, but I think that most artists and authors interested in pulling their work are making a silent ceteris paribus assumption which is dead wrong.
No doubt, it pains me to say this because they are my friends, but their case is doomed to failure. At best they can hope for is an out of court settlement. This juggernaut is not stopping for anything. All fields of art are going to be dramatically affected. I do believe brilliant creatives will take these tools and make amazing things. Perhaps everything: music, art, books, games, movies will all dramatically increase in quality before the apocalypse.
Quote from: BadApple on August 03, 2023, 09:34:33 PM
One of the things going on in the world is that corporations are doing their level best to control how a product is reported on. Disney went so far as to buy Rotten Tomatoes and has definitely skewed reporting and reviews of their movies. They block reviewers and journalists for negative reports and reward positive support. Hasbro has been doing similar things.
Right!
This was the reasoning for my questions. I've found it increasing more difficult to get objective reporting from "main stream" sources, as well as several independent ones, over the last few years. On the one side, you have people who are all in on the DEI/ESG agenda, and then you have knee-jerk response from the other side. I've found I can only really rely on a small group of independent (and often unrelated) voices from people who I know share my tastes and opinions on certain things. That doesn't mean I don't listen to other opinions, but when put to the test, I've consistently found myself saying, "yeah, X person was right."
Granted, this is mostly in the realm of TV shows and movies ( the most disposible type of media), but books and comics have their place in there too. I do agree with you that finding something similar for rpgs is very scant, but it is a very small market compared to the others. I mean, motorcycle enthusiasts probably outnumber TT-gamers 10 to 1, and unless I heard it from a motorcycle enthusiast himself, I wouldn't know which reviews were trustworthy.
QuoteA simple organization of players that review and publish honest opinions is all I want. Not a government board, not a foundation to make things happen, just clean information to the consumer for them to decide where to spend their money so they don't have to drop $3k on books trying to find a game that suites them. Also, a little bit of education about how to see if a product is suitable to you and how scamming in the gaming industry works so that grifters get flushed out.
Well, I didn't think you wanted a government board for reviewing rpgs. LOL. But from the way you said it, it DID sound like you wanted some form of democratized collective tasked with agreeing on which games were "human-made" and which were "AI drival." A weird dicotomy, since there is plenty of human-made drival already on the market, and I'm not yet convinced that AI-assisted or even AI-produced games are inherently unplayable.
But if you desire a forum for game reviews, you're on one right now. Why not start a thread similar to The Woke List for which games are playable versus unplayable? I think the majority of users here are vastly knowledgeable on games, and vocal enough with their opinions to make such a thread a lively discussion.
On the supply-side of things, I think publishers would greatly benefit by releasing a Freeware version of their games so players can give it a testdrive. Some do, but the majority seem to rely on blind faith or word-of-mouth to sell their products. There's a reason why groceries continue to offer free-samples of products. It's a proven marketing tactic. Sure, most people will either walk by or eat the thing and move on, but the point is to get eyes on the product. And a significant percentage of people who would have never puchased the product otherwise will buy it due to that exposure.
Quote from: Effete on August 03, 2023, 08:54:49 PM
Quote from: Scooter on August 03, 2023, 08:34:51 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 03, 2023, 07:21:47 PM
WotC inherited loads of diverse IPs from TSR and freelancers invented plenty in Polyhedron during the d20 Modern era. By extension, Hasbro owns all of those. Star Frontiers, Star*Drive, Gamma World, Dark•Matter, Shadowchasers, Agents of Psi, Urban Arcana, Thunderball Rally, Iron Lords of Jupiter, DeathNet, BugHunters, Kromosome, GeneTech, etc. They're drowning in IPs that run the gamut of genres and could be turned into toys, video games, movies, tv shows, etc. But they're not exploiting any of it. In age when studios are snatching up IPs and driving them into the ground. Make it make sense! Do the executives just not know they own these IPs because nobody bothered to keep a list?
Most of those (Gamma World and the like) have no real value as names because they have been out of circulation so long. One could recreate Gamma World using a different name and make as much money.
And people should!
Trademarks expire. Has Hasbro been keeping their trademarks up to date just to hedge out any imaginary competition for properties they don't market? Or have they truly forgotten they actually own them? Either one will look bad in a court of law if Hasbro challenged a trademark suit. It would stink of anti-competitive shenannigans.
Well, there's Mutant Future, I guess. But not much else. Is there anything that actually satisfies a fan of those IPs? I haven't found anything that gets me excited. The original Alternity authors snatched up the trademark, then burned out once they realized they didn't have the rights to the IPs.
I once tried to make my own retroclones then gave up because it got too close to copyright infringement and I just wanted to play the originals anyway.
I don't think the circulation claim is really meaningful. Multiple franchises have been revived after decades of hiatus. Spelljammer and Planescape, for example.
But tbh I think copyright needs to be reformed so that out of print books enter the public domain after a decade or two. This would allow fans to reprint the original books for sharing with new generations and make their own hacks.
Quote from: BadApple on August 03, 2023, 02:40:40 PM
Is feeding images into an algorithm inspiring the program or stealing someone's art? Adding to this whole thing is that AI art is a developing tech that's changing on a daily basis.
So I read a good explanation of this. It won't tell you answer but you will understand what it is doing.
So imagine a map of the world. Chicago is at 41.8781° N, 87.6298W, New York is at 40.7128° N, 74.0060° W and Miami is at 25.7617° N, 80.1918° W. Instead of storing a map image and trying to interpret the image. You can look at the map to figure out how latitude and longitude work on the map. Look at the labels and their market. Scan the maps and store a bunch of labels and their latitude and longitude.
Next, you hook up to a self-learning neural network and ask questions with known answers like "What are the three closest locations to Chicago"? The neural network will get it wrong at first. The training software will reorganize the network to try again. Eventually, it will start getting results that are close.
With something simplistic like a list of locations it is possible to train it to be accurate. However, when it comes to images and text, the latitude and longitude being stored are just not two coordinates but a dozen or more. When you get up that high then complete accuracy becomes a problem as I will explain in a minute. Instead, the neural network can get close enough. To close the remaining gap is the subject of ongoing research.
Using a text-based AI as an example, the reason complete accuracy is a problem is that words and phrases can appear in multiple contexts for example the phrase "My sister was with two men last night" could be part of a comedian's joke, part of a crime story, or another number of situations. And the coordinates that are stored for this phrase and its parts could wind up having a number of choices that are equal distance away from the different options.
As if asking what is the closest city to Chicago gives two random answers if there were two cities equal distance apart. While the problem of Chicago can be resolved easily. When you have a dozen or more coordinated associated with each item in the training base it becomes a challenge.
The same problem exists for images, a blog of color data associated with human ears could lead to several alternatives of equal distance away.
Some of this has been handled by greatly increasing the number of coordinates associated with each item in the training data thus exposing deeper inter-connections thus shorting the distance between items that we humans would consider closely related.
As a software engineer following this for decades, I think there will be a hard limit hit to this approach. That it will only be solved by layering in something else that will be developed by the next generation of AI software. Something that will understand context as human do better.
Finally the issue of copyright. The elements books and images being trained on are being reduced to a series of coordinates. Even if we are talking about just one book or image, it would be near impossible to reconstruct the original image or book from the data. It is possible to recreate sections where the elements are so strongly associated with each other that they would naturally appear together.
However, they don't train on just one book or image. So various elements are associated with all kinds of works. As it turns out there are only so many letters and words. There is a limit to how color and form associate with each other in an image. So the possibility of recreating a specific work from the data is very low.
Slightly higher would be the chance of creating a work that would be considered derivative, especially for text.
My position is that it should be treated like a human artist. If the outputted work is clearly not derivative or a copy then it is fine. If it is then the original artist or writer should be able to prevail to have the outputted work taken down.
I think work that is produced by AI generation should not enjoy copyright protection. However, keep in mind if somebody incorporates AI generated content then the resulting work probably is copyrightable. For example, a Traveller Sector where the world are created by the world generation procedure but the book itself about the details of the sectors and the writeups of the world are definitely human-produced.
And I think OpenAI and the others should be nailed for using pirated collections of books and images. That was stupid of them to do especially considering their dreams of commercial success. If anything that is what will shut down the current generation as they will be enjoined from using their trained models based on the pirated works.
However, this will be a short hiccup as models trained on public domain sources will appear. Along with models trained on images and books that were legitimately acquired.
Hope that makes sense.
Side Note: I wonder if the model themselves are copyrightable. I think not because a list of facts can't be copyrighted. Plus the data that is stored in the neural network after training is not created by humans.
Quote from: estar on August 04, 2023, 08:29:33 AM
My position is that it should be treated like a human artist. If the outputted work is clearly not derivative or a copy then it is fine. If it is then the original artist or writer should be able to prevail to have the outputted work taken down.
This would conform to current statute and case law. Anything more would be illegal currently.
Quote from: Effete on August 04, 2023, 04:09:50 AM
But if you desire a forum for game reviews, you're on one right now. Why not start a thread similar to The Woke List for which games are playable versus unplayable? I think the majority of users here are vastly knowledgeable on games, and vocal enough with their opinions to make such a thread a lively discussion.
I am aware. In part, that's why I'm a member here. I've even done two reviews here: https://www.therpgsite.com/reviews/1520hre-2d6-adventure-in-the-holy-roman-empire/msg1257292/#msg1257292 and https://www.therpgsite.com/reviews/the-hardboiled-gmshoe-reviews-dark-stars/msg1258434/#msg1258434
The second review is actually a counter review. In both cases, it's my attempt to give reviews that I would like to read. I would be happy to do reviews like this for all the games I know well if there was an expressed interest. I may not be the writer or reviewer people want to read though.
Quote from: Scooter on August 04, 2023, 09:45:43 AM
Quote from: estar on August 04, 2023, 08:29:33 AM
My position is that it should be treated like a human artist. If the outputted work is clearly not derivative or a copy then it is fine. If it is then the original artist or writer should be able to prevail to have the outputted work taken down.
This would conform to current statute and case law. Anything more would be illegal currently.
Like Photoshop, or any digital creation software, the user can create images that infringe on copyrights. You could paint Spider-Man in a digital painting program for example. But the software also allows for creative freedom. So is the liability the user or the software maker in cases of copyright infringement?
Quote from: Thor's Nads on August 05, 2023, 12:01:05 AM
Quote from: Scooter on August 04, 2023, 09:45:43 AM
Quote from: estar on August 04, 2023, 08:29:33 AM
My position is that it should be treated like a human artist. If the outputted work is clearly not derivative or a copy then it is fine. If it is then the original artist or writer should be able to prevail to have the outputted work taken down.
This would conform to current statute and case law. Anything more would be illegal currently.
Like Photoshop, or any digital creation software, the user can create images that infringe on copyrights. You could paint Spider-Man in a digital painting program for example. But the software also allows for creative freedom. So is the liability the user or the software maker in cases of copyright infringement?
The AI is just a mindless tool following a set of commands presented by the prompt. The onus lies with the person typing the prompts, who then becomes the "owner" of the produced image. Holding the software developers liable would be like holding the manufacturer of a paintbrush liable for someone reproducing the Mono Lisa.
Besides, mere reproductions of copyright works are not inherently illegal. This was established with the music industry. If you purchased a CD, you have the right to rip the songs onto your computer, or even make a burn disc. What you aren't allowed to do is share it. I can sit around and learn how to draw Bart Simpson all I want; I just can't share those drawings within a public forum. So the owner of an AI-produced art piece or manuscript also inherents the legal responsibility of that work.
Quote from: Scooter on August 03, 2023, 08:34:51 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 03, 2023, 07:21:47 PM
WotC inherited loads of diverse IPs from TSR and freelancers invented plenty in Polyhedron during the d20 Modern era. By extension, Hasbro owns all of those. Star Frontiers, Star*Drive, Gamma World, Dark•Matter, Shadowchasers, Agents of Psi, Urban Arcana, Thunderball Rally, Iron Lords of Jupiter, DeathNet, BugHunters, Kromosome, GeneTech, etc. They're drowning in IPs that run the gamut of genres and could be turned into toys, video games, movies, tv shows, etc. But they're not exploiting any of it. In age when studios are snatching up IPs and driving them into the ground. Make it make sense! Do the executives just not know they own these IPs because nobody bothered to keep a list?
Most of those (Gamma World and the like) have no real value as names because they have been out of circulation so long. One could recreate Gamma World using a different name and make as much money.
I do not understand why WotC hasn't taken the many great IP's they purchased from TSR and brought them all under the umbrella of 5th edition. Making an RPG is such a low cost endeavour and it'd bring value back to these brands and reinforce the copyrights/trademarks they own.
Boothill
Metamorphosis Alpha/Gamma World
Top Secret
Gangbusters
Star Frontiers
And why haven't they made updated boardgames of Dawn Patrol, Divine Right, and Knights of Camelot with spiffy new graphics and components during the boardgame boom?
It's like the people running WotC have no respect for what they have.
It's probably because the people running WotC have no respect for what they have. ;)
Remember, after a certain level of growth your chief officers leave cottage industry, labor of love into resumé padding rung upon the corporate ladder counting down to retirement upon a private island. WotC hit the big time a few decades ago. And once gobbled up by Hasbro C-level is now just dumb money faffing about waiting to name drop at the next cocktail party.
;D Welcome to hell. It affects your favorite hobbies, too. Salvation is personal; return to indie cottage industry. 8)
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 03, 2023, 07:21:47 PM
WotC inherited loads of diverse IPs from TSR and freelancers invented plenty in Polyhedron during the d20 Modern era. By extension, Hasbro owns all of those. Star Frontiers, Star*Drive, Gamma World, Dark•Matter, Shadowchasers, Agents of Psi, Urban Arcana, Thunderball Rally, Iron Lords of Jupiter, DeathNet, BugHunters, Kromosome, GeneTech, etc. They're drowning in IPs that run the gamut of genres and could be turned into toys, video games, movies, tv shows, etc. But they're not exploiting any of it. In age when studios are snatching up IPs and driving them into the ground. Make it make sense! Do the executives just not know they own these IPs because nobody bothered to keep a list?
Hasbro has been notorious for many, many decades for shelving properties for many years before trying to cash in on nostalgia. It helps camp on IPs while lowering operating costs. They almost had that and the Christmas season down to a science with a bizarre L-"curve" annual profit chart. WotC just gave them reliable MtG cardboard crack money to squeeze nerdy nutsacks in repeat shakedowns.
Though all that may be changing as they've been self-immolating in their own way like a lot of industries of the past decade. 8) Who knows? Maybe interesting times are ahead?
All this talk has given me an idea for a new Dystopian setting to run a campaign in.
In this dark future mankind has been reduced to menial laborers and foot soldiers while AI creates all approved art and literature and controls the flying kill drones and brain implants that keep the human cattle in line.
I call the setting "Our AI Future."
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 06, 2023, 08:30:07 AM
All this talk has given me an idea for a new Dystopian setting to run a campaign in.
In this dark future mankind has been reduced to menial laborers and foot soldiers while AI creates all approved art and literature and controls the flying kill drones and brain implants that keep the human cattle in line.
I call the setting "Our AI Future."
So... the back story to Dune? No, wait, Terminator?
*JOKE* Sounds kind of unoriginal (see changes in bold below).
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 06, 2023, 08:30:07 AM
All this talk has given me an idea for a new Dystopian setting to run a campaign in.
In this dark present mankind has been reduced to menial laborers and foot soldiers while the media and academic elite creates all approved art and literature and controls the flying kill drones and reality TV shows that keep the human cattle in line.
I call the setting "Our Mainstream Media Present."
Not sure if you're aware of how badly the media/academic establishment totally controls what fiction gets published through brick and mortar bookstores (which is still where a lot of authors see over half their sales).
Quote from: Thor's Nads on August 06, 2023, 04:28:07 AM
Quote from: Scooter on August 03, 2023, 08:34:51 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 03, 2023, 07:21:47 PM
WotC inherited loads of diverse IPs from TSR and freelancers invented plenty in Polyhedron during the d20 Modern era. By extension, Hasbro owns all of those. Star Frontiers, Star*Drive, Gamma World, Dark•Matter, Shadowchasers, Agents of Psi, Urban Arcana, Thunderball Rally, Iron Lords of Jupiter, DeathNet, BugHunters, Kromosome, GeneTech, etc. They're drowning in IPs that run the gamut of genres and could be turned into toys, video games, movies, tv shows, etc. But they're not exploiting any of it. In age when studios are snatching up IPs and driving them into the ground. Make it make sense! Do the executives just not know they own these IPs because nobody bothered to keep a list?
Most of those (Gamma World and the like) have no real value as names because they have been out of circulation so long. One could recreate Gamma World using a different name and make as much money.
I do not understand why WotC hasn't taken the many great IP's they purchased from TSR and brought them all under the umbrella of 5th edition. Making an RPG is such a low cost endeavour and it'd bring value back to these brands and reinforce the copyrights/trademarks they own.
Boothill
Metamorphosis Alpha/Gamma World
Top Secret
Gangbusters
Star Frontiers
And why haven't they made updated boardgames of Dawn Patrol, Divine Right, and Knights of Camelot with spiffy new graphics and components during the boardgame boom?
It's like the people running WotC have no respect for what they have.
Quote from: Opaopajr on August 06, 2023, 05:25:32 AM
It's probably because the people running WotC have no respect for what they have. ;)
Remember, after a certain level of growth your chief officers leave cottage industry, labor of love into resumé padding rung upon the corporate ladder counting down to retirement upon a private island. WotC hit the big time a few decades ago. And once gobbled up by Hasbro C-level is now just dumb money faffing about waiting to name drop at the next cocktail party.
;D Welcome to hell. It affects your favorite hobbies, too. Salvation is personal; return to indie cottage industry. 8)
Quote from: Opaopajr on August 06, 2023, 05:33:47 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 03, 2023, 07:21:47 PM
WotC inherited loads of diverse IPs from TSR and freelancers invented plenty in Polyhedron during the d20 Modern era. By extension, Hasbro owns all of those. Star Frontiers, Star*Drive, Gamma World, Dark•Matter, Shadowchasers, Agents of Psi, Urban Arcana, Thunderball Rally, Iron Lords of Jupiter, DeathNet, BugHunters, Kromosome, GeneTech, etc. They're drowning in IPs that run the gamut of genres and could be turned into toys, video games, movies, tv shows, etc. But they're not exploiting any of it. In age when studios are snatching up IPs and driving them into the ground. Make it make sense! Do the executives just not know they own these IPs because nobody bothered to keep a list?
Hasbro has been notorious for many, many decades for shelving properties for many years before trying to cash in on nostalgia. It helps camp on IPs while lowering operating costs. They almost had that and the Christmas season down to a science with a bizarre L-"curve" annual profit chart. WotC just gave them reliable MtG cardboard crack money to squeeze nerdy nutsacks in repeat shakedowns.
Though all that may be changing as they've been self-immolating in their own way like a lot of industries of the past decade. 8) Who knows? Maybe interesting times are ahead?
Yeah.
It's especially frustrating because a fair amount of these IPs are so unique that you can't do anything similar without worrying about being sued. I've searched fruitlessly for years to find anything similar.
Old ttrpgs are among the single most creative and coherent fiction I've encountered. Since they aren't restricted to main characters like prose fiction, they're able to worldbuild to such a degree that the settings actually feel like living worlds rather than fake theme parks for the main characters to romp through. Which lets them avoid the problem of sequelitis that you see in fiction where the writers didn't create a coherent world that could support endless sequels.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on August 01, 2023, 01:21:11 PM
All it takes is to have a human being altar the output of an AI generated piece and they can't say a damn thing. 20% change is all it takes to be "transformative" which, by DMCA law, makes it a new and unique piece.
No such DMCA provision.
They're currently inventing AI detectors and counters to AI detectors. Because some Silicon Valley idiot savants genuinely thought trying to outsmart AI detectors was a good ideas. So there's really no way to be sure that anything is real or AI generated past a certain point. Drivethrurpg won't be able to enforce this except against obviously low quality content.
If they want to avoid a glut of low quality shovelware glutting their servers, then they need to curate the content before selling it. Which opens another can of worms and risks censoring free speech. How do you prevent shovelware from clogging the servers without censoring artsy-fartsy, satire or politics you disagree with? How do you distinguish between good and bad faith actors?
The only thing I can think of to even begin addressing the problem would be to institute an industry-wide content rating system that rates content according to apolitical metrics. How violent, sexual, politicized, well written or useful is the content?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 06, 2023, 01:49:02 PM
They're currently inventing AI detectors and counters to AI detectors. Because some Silicon Valley idiot savants genuinely thought trying to outsmart AI detectors was a good ideas. So there's really no way to be sure that anything is real or AI generated past a certain point. Drivethrurpg won't be able to enforce this except against obviously low quality content.
If they want to avoid a glut of low quality shovelware glutting their servers, then they need to curate the content before selling it. Which opens another can of worms and risks censoring free speech. How do you prevent shovelware from clogging the servers without censoring artsy-fartsy, satire or politics you disagree with? How do you distinguish between good and bad faith actors?
The only thing I can think of to even begin addressing the problem would be to institute an industry-wide content rating system that rates content according to apolitical metrics. How violent, sexual, politicized, well written or useful is the content?
Who decides what get's thru this industry wide rating system? Who decides who gets to make the rules for such a system? How do you guarantee it's applied evenly accros the board without giving some more leeway?
IF DTRPG really wanted to avoid low quality glut they would need to become a publisher and not a store, then they get to choose what passes their arbitrary standards and what doesn't. Which as you mention is a mine field of censorship, it's not a question if they'd censor those they perceive as their "political enemies" but how hard would they go.
If you ask me I would clamp down on low page content from new developers/publishers, but they needed to do so years ago.
Likewise applying OSR to everything and anything means the label has no value as a search therm. They needed to have created a different one for games not D&D based, OSG (Old School Gaming) for instance, which doesn't make it easier to filter because you have all 3d6, 2d6, etc games under it.
The more glut the harder it is to get discovered, the more rules you implement to clamp down on glut will have the same effect, for instance giving priority to bigger sales, bigger names, etc means the newcomer has an uphill battle on top of another.
IMHO what we need is a different site manned by fans to make reviews, but that requires a lot of money.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 06, 2023, 02:02:19 PM
Likewise applying OSR to everything and anything means the label has no value as a search therm. They needed to have created a different one for games not D&D based, OSG (Old School Gaming) for instance, which doesn't make it easier to filter because you have all 3d6, 2d6, etc games under it.
While the OSR category is a mess the individual categories underneath like Swords & Wizardry, OSE, OSRIC, etc, do get policed by the publishers who submit complaints to Onebookshelf. And the complaints do get acted on. But to be clear this is not a periodic thing. I know because I did that when I found some stuff in S&W that clearly didn't belong. I mentioned it to other OSR Publishers and within a few weeks it was a lot better.
Assorted replies to various posts...
Heh, page content alone isn't enough. I write a lot of low page content as supplements or tools and I've gotten thousands of downloads, some good reviews, and made a tidy amount of mad money over the years.
---
I think the "20% rule" stems from the golden and silver age of comics. That's where I heard it first. The world has gotten much more litigious since then. The DMCA being a primary example of that. While it offers some protections, it also has been weaponized to remove negative reviews that should have been acceptable use.
This article talks about it and more or less debunks the percentage logic.
https://topofy.com/how-avoid-copyright-infringement/ (https://topofy.com/how-avoid-copyright-infringement/)
---
I like the US Copyright Office's AI policy; only humans can hold copyrights. That's why going forward I'll forego text prompts alone and instead use images, sketches, control nets, and the like so that I am working with AI to modify a work rather than create one from scratch.
---
The funny thing about AI glut is that the app NEVER runs out and publishes something. There is always a human in the loop looking to make easy money. And you know what? I'm okay with that. It is the consumer that needs to decide and not the warehouse/store. Maybe the buyer actually wants a portfolio of AI portraits for their local game. [I know that I have some projects like that in my library.]
Protecting human artists from mean old Technology is bullshit. Those artists need to learn, use AI for concepts or style guides, so they make their own copyrightable art with more efficiency. They adapted when photography became a thing. They did it when Photoshop arrived. This is just another evolution, adapt or go extinct. If they need to cling to their old tools, perhaps they should check out Adobe Firefly. Failing that, they can learn to code. :o
[edit for typos]
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 03, 2023, 07:21:47 PM
WotC inherited loads of diverse IPs from TSR and freelancers invented plenty in Polyhedron during the d20 Modern era. By extension, Hasbro owns all of those. Star Frontiers, Star*Drive, Gamma World, Dark•Matter, Shadowchasers, Agents of Psi, Urban Arcana, Thunderball Rally, Iron Lords of Jupiter, DeathNet, BugHunters, Kromosome, GeneTech, etc. They're drowning in IPs that run the gamut of genres and could be turned into toys, video games, movies, tv shows, etc. But they're not exploiting any of it. In age when studios are snatching up IPs and driving them into the ground. Make it make sense! Do the executives just not know they own these IPs because nobody bothered to keep a list?
I wonder if people could leverage the DM's Guild to create new official content on DTRPG? Sure, you're throw half your profits to WotC, but that might be acceptable if you're really wanting to revive a IP that they have sat on.
Not that I plan on doing that, but I should read up on that option to see if it is really viable for not 5e stuff.
And to answer the previous question, it is a firm 'not really'. They want to put a 5e rubber stamp on everything. To that end, they did not say you couldn't use other IPs, but to follow one of the DM's Guild rules it should be 5e compatible. So, translations of older titles to 5e might be doable if you're keen on that. Perhaps seeking permission for other stuff might be possible. After all, it is 100% effortless money for them. And, money is king at WotC.
My ultimate concern would be if they block anything that wasn't been run through the woke sewer water. [Insert WotC drone...] "Boothill is 'problematic' due to its roots in historical oppression and discrimination." Like gamers don't have a brain and can't separate a game from reality.
[edit for typos, again]
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 06, 2023, 11:49:34 AM
It's especially frustrating because a fair amount of these IPs are so unique that you can't do anything similar without worrying about being sued. I've searched fruitlessly for years to find anything similar.
I was thinking of this so I pulled out my '78 copy of Gamma world. It would not be difficult to make a modern version of this using ZERO I.P. from the original. Might prove profitable because gamers from the 90's and later probably have no knowledge of this game
Quote from: zircher on August 06, 2023, 03:17:42 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 03, 2023, 07:21:47 PM
WotC inherited loads of diverse IPs from TSR and freelancers invented plenty in Polyhedron during the d20 Modern era. By extension, Hasbro owns all of those. Star Frontiers, Star*Drive, Gamma World, Dark•Matter, Shadowchasers, Agents of Psi, Urban Arcana, Thunderball Rally, Iron Lords of Jupiter, DeathNet, BugHunters, Kromosome, GeneTech, etc. They're drowning in IPs that run the gamut of genres and could be turned into toys, video games, movies, tv shows, etc. But they're not exploiting any of it. In age when studios are snatching up IPs and driving them into the ground. Make it make sense! Do the executives just not know they own these IPs because nobody bothered to keep a list?
I wonder if people could leverage the DM's Guild to create new official content on DTRPG? Sure, you're throw half your profits to WotC, but that might be acceptable if you're really wanting to revive a IP that they have sat on.
Not that I plan on doing that, but I should read up on that option to see if it is really viable for not 5e stuff.
There's also the question of whether or not it is legally allowed in the first place. Copyright law also protects against derivative works. That was whole point behind the OGL... to allow for the production of derivative works (within certain constraints).
The OGL is exclusively an "opt-in" license. By attaching a copy of the license to your work, you agree to it. To the best of my knowledge, none of those other IPs WotC acquired from TSR include the OGL, nor do they have SRDs listed what is Open Content and what is Product Identity. So the logical conclusion is they are not licensed with the OGL, and subject to regular copyright law.
Quote from: zircher on August 06, 2023, 03:17:42 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 03, 2023, 07:21:47 PM
WotC inherited loads of diverse IPs from TSR and freelancers invented plenty in Polyhedron during the d20 Modern era. By extension, Hasbro owns all of those. Star Frontiers, Star*Drive, Gamma World, Dark•Matter, Shadowchasers, Agents of Psi, Urban Arcana, Thunderball Rally, Iron Lords of Jupiter, DeathNet, BugHunters, Kromosome, GeneTech, etc. They're drowning in IPs that run the gamut of genres and could be turned into toys, video games, movies, tv shows, etc. But they're not exploiting any of it. In age when studios are snatching up IPs and driving them into the ground. Make it make sense! Do the executives just not know they own these IPs because nobody bothered to keep a list?
I wonder if people could leverage the DM's Guild to create new official content on DTRPG? Sure, you're throw half your profits to WotC, but that might be acceptable if you're really wanting to revive a IP that they have sat on.
Not that I plan on doing that, but I should read up on that option to see if it is really viable for not 5e stuff.
Not all of the originals are even available on drivethrurpg anyway. The Alternity books still aren't back after the 2008 hissy fit. The Polyhedron mini-settings are only sold on Paizo's website.
With WotC moving to mobile mtx hell, they have no impetus to bother preserving any of their prior IP.
Quote from: Scooter on August 06, 2023, 03:58:24 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 06, 2023, 11:49:34 AM
It's especially frustrating because a fair amount of these IPs are so unique that you can't do anything similar without worrying about being sued. I've searched fruitlessly for years to find anything similar.
I was thinking of this so I pulled out my '78 copy of Gamma world. It would not be difficult to make a modern version of this using ZERO I.P. from the original. Might prove profitable because gamers from the 90's and later probably have no knowledge of this game
As I said, it varies.
Mutant Future is apparently a pastiche of Gamma World (technically it's a pastiche of the post-apocalypse genre as a whole), but I don't remember if it has equivalents of things like the cryptic alliances and silly mutants that set GW apart from other less wacky post-apocalypse settings. Not to mention that Gamma Terra's backstory was retconned a few times: the first four editions had the conventional nuclear war, then subsequent editions used aliens, artificial intelligence, and most recently multiverse incursion.
The appeal of Gamma World is that it's basically D&D, with all the 80s era wackiness, but the genre is post-apocalypse instead of fantasy. Instead of dungeons it has the ruins of the old world, instead of monsters it has mutants and robots and whatnot, instead of spells it has mutations and psychic powers, and instead of heroes and dark lords it has the cryptic alliances.
I'm surprised the last edition was in 2010. You'd think the success of Fallout would've lead WotC to keep it around.
Dark•Matter is essentially the X-Files but with coherent worldbuilding. The downside to any revival is that its Fifth Sun Dark Matter tide background was tied into Y2K apocalypticism and thus would need to be accounted for. The upside is that the US government has acknowledged UFOs are real so the conspiracy premise isn't completely outdated.
Star*Drive is an extremely political setting. Not in the sense that it relates to any real world politics, but in the sense that the heart of the game was a political thriller in a space opera setting. The stellar nations are basically Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri in a space opera scale, they're currently recovering from a century of war, the Verge is a commentary on colonialism, human dominance comes at the detriment of their alien client races (as implied by the "client races" part), etc. The backstory involves the Roswell Grays being real and helping humanity make the first known FTL drives within a 1,000 ly of Earth. Then you have the externals who make things even more complicated... It would be hell to retroclone and I have yet to find anything similar. But even two decades after its cancelation the setting is pretty unique as far as space opera settings go. Star Trek and Star Wars are hugely dated in their worldbuilding and don't account for subsequent evolutions of scifi like cyberpunk. Alternity and Star*Drive accounts for basically the entire scifi genre as of the late 90s: artificial intelligence, aliens, psychic powers, mutants, cyborgs, cloning, etc. Each stellar nation takes a scifi trope and runs with it. Indeed, scifi seems to have stagnated since SD came out so you could probably reprint it with no change and it wouldn't feel outdated. The only bit that would be dated is its lack of smartphones and social media destroying society, but quite frankly I'm happier not shoehorning references to TikTube to make it "timely". (Technically SD already has smartphone watches as a basic device everyone has and which can be used to casually enter VR, gridrunners being a common profession, but people aren't addicted to it.)
I've looked into games like Traveller and Cepheus and there just isn't anything that tries emulating Star*Drive.
Star Frontiers is a genre pastiche that suffered an identity crisis. Are you playing Star Law officers or Cowboy Bebop? I've looked into a few other games I was told do similar stuff, but nobody's tried retrocloning the aliens that are one of the few elements setting it apart from other scifi. It's not like you couldn't tweak them enough to avoid copyright claims, the androidarts guy did some interesting redesigns: http://www.androidarts.com/RPG/StarFrontiers.htm
Galactos Barrier is a blatant Star Wars ripoff, although I thought some of the alien concepts were creative. The fish people needed to constantly submerge in iron-rich water or their flesh would slough off, the snake people had a genetic memory and reproduced by dissolving alive after going on a library binge, and the slime people could assume crude facsimiles of other species and reproduced exactly like angiosperms (leading to pollen dispensers being used as a common security measure against them, which is... a choice).
The various alien concepts could honestly be used in any space setting. d20 Future converted the Alternity and Star Frontiers races in the same chapter and didn't specify they were limited to specific settings, so you could easily use them all in either setting. Oddly, the book referenced the Bug Hunters setting but not Galactos Barrier and didn't use its aliens at all.
Bug Hunters is a mix of Aliens, Blade Runner and Schismatrix. You play as replicants who are sent to fight killer aliens and robots that were leftover from an ancient war between two alien civilizations: the Shapers and the Artificers. After Amazing Engine was cancelled, the Shapers and Artificers seemingly provided inspiration for the Glassmakers and Stoneburners in Star*Drive. It has a few other aliens: cat people, Roswell grays, and lizard people. I prefer it over the official Aliens RPG because Ridley Scott shat the bed when he introduced the eight foot albinos and said a malfunctioning android created the titular alien.
Agents of Psi is about playing secret agents with psychic powers. It is probably replicable with Hex Games'
I Psi, which is about playing secret agents with psychic powers. Although you're on your own if you want to replicate
Akira,
Scanners,
Doctor Sleep,
Psychomech,
Necroscope or the like.
The Polyhedron mini-settings (https://www.enworld.org/threads/d20-polyhedron-minigame-fan-expansions.698050/post-9035788), some of which were reprinted truncated in d20 Modern, d20 Future or d20 Past, are hit and miss. They're all genre pastiches with varying degrees of equivalents in the published rpg market. I'm not aware of any other rpgs that tackled 70s racing movies or tour bands. Mecha Crusade is essentially Jovian Chronicles. Shadowchasers is Buffy/Angel.
There's no other rpg that replicates Urban Arcana that I could find. (No, White Wolf is emo goth crap with an absurd partisan slant.)
I could go on, but you probably get the point.
One of the benefits of WotC turning d20 into a universal system meant that it introduced players to new settings they otherwise wouldn't be exposed to due to traditional ttrpgs being time consuming overly complicated nightmares that prevent you from investing in more than one game per lifetime. You didn't need to learn a new system and you could mix and match stuff.
With the current model of one overly complicated nightmare system per setting that unpredictability shifts edition every so many years, the ttrpg playerbase is pointlessly fragmented. The industry is dominated by WotC, with a handful of oscillating runner ups, and new games are largely unable to break into the market unless they use 5e and even that's not too reliable unless you keep churning out product to keep fans from leaving.
Quite frankly, my negative experiences in this regard have led me to believe that crunch and fluff should be kept firmly separated. Publishers should keep track of all their lore on wikis. I cannot keep count of the times I've seen writers fuck up lore due to not keeping track. Either keep track of your lore you fucking morons, or fuck the entire concept of lore.
I'm getting distracted. Sorry.
I feel like too many modern rpgs suck and I'm nostalgic for a time when I feel quality was higher, budgets were higher, and writers were way more creative and open-minded.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 06, 2023, 06:03:48 PM
Quite frankly, my negative experiences in this regard have led me to believe that crunch and fluff should be kept firmly separated. Publishers should keep track of all their lore on wikis. I cannot keep count of the times I've seen writers fuck up lore due to not keeping track. Either keep track of your lore you fucking morons, or fuck the entire concept of lore.
I agree. Which is why I like Cepheus Deluxe. It is a crunch rule set that I can hang the fluff of my choice on as far as Space gaming goes.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 06, 2023, 02:02:19 PM
IMHO what we need is a different site manned by fans to make reviews, but that requires a lot of money.
That's what I've been talking about. If there was enough of us, then it could be done.
Quote from: BadApple on August 06, 2023, 06:30:32 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 06, 2023, 02:02:19 PM
IMHO what we need is a different site manned by fans to make reviews, but that requires a lot of money.
That's what I've been talking about. If there was enough of us, then it could be done.
You need the site, then enough money to buy stuff to review, then people's time to ACTUALLY make the review and write it. You will not get any money back for a long while if ever (meaning covering the costs which should include the reviewer's time).
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 06, 2023, 06:03:48 PM
Long rant I mostly agree with.
My dude, instead of getting blackpilled let's do something about it, made a post on Guilded regarding your complaints about older games, I've been working on and off on one retroclone of one you seem very fond off.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 06, 2023, 06:39:06 PM
Quote from: BadApple on August 06, 2023, 06:30:32 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 06, 2023, 02:02:19 PM
IMHO what we need is a different site manned by fans to make reviews, but that requires a lot of money.
That's what I've been talking about. If there was enough of us, then it could be done.
You need the site, then enough money to buy stuff to review, then people's time to ACTUALLY make the review and write it. You will not get any money back for a long while if ever (meaning covering the costs which should include the reviewer's time).
Slow down. I like the energy but I think you're getting the cart before the horse.
First, you need to network people who are willing to help and see what can actually be contributed.
Second, do an inventory of gaming material already on hand. Start doing reviews of things that we already own. Set a base line. Also, get as many people as possible to review each product.
Third, set a standard for reviews. Build a template. Then set up a spreadsheet to aggregate scores.
Fourth, set up a blog and publish reviews and review scores.
If this all works out, then get finances in order and build a company to do this. Once it's established and there's some clout, then OneBookshelf can be negotiated with as well as other publishers.
Quote from: Tod13 on August 06, 2023, 10:06:13 AM
*JOKE* Sounds kind of unoriginal (see changes in bold below).
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 06, 2023, 08:30:07 AM
All this talk has given me an idea for a new Dystopian setting to run a campaign in.
In this dark present mankind has been reduced to menial laborers and foot soldiers while the media and academic elite creates all approved art and literature and controls the flying kill drones and reality TV shows that keep the human cattle in line.
I call the setting "Our Mainstream Media Present."
Not sure if you're aware of how badly the media/academic establishment totally controls what fiction gets published through brick and mortar bookstores (which is still where a lot of authors see over half their sales).
When I go to any of our local bookstores I want to barf at the absolute domination of far left books and the lack of anything to the right of Chairman Mao.
Children's book sections are crammed full of gender ideology which got smuggled in with kid-friendly rainbows a decade or so ago.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 06, 2023, 06:03:48 PM
Not all of the originals are even available on drivethrurpg anyway. The Alternity books still aren't back after the 2008 hissy fit.
Is that because 4th edition sucked and people were choosing to buy the PDF's to play old editions instead of adopted that new shitty edition?
Quote from: Thor's Nads on August 07, 2023, 03:39:32 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 06, 2023, 06:03:48 PM
Not all of the originals are even available on drivethrurpg anyway. The Alternity books still aren't back after the 2008 hissy fit.
Is that because 4th edition sucked and people were choosing to buy the PDF's to play old editions instead of adopted that new shitty edition?
Supposedly it was about piracy. But they still haven't restored it even after restoring the D&D books and a few other games
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 02, 2023, 12:56:32 AM
Quote from: BadApple on August 02, 2023, 12:44:31 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 02, 2023, 12:05:04 AM
Quote from: BadApple on August 01, 2023, 11:32:50 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 11:23:49 PM
Well, if it's better than some of the crap already there...
where's the harm?
Mother fucker...
You know what, just go ahead and PM me with your personal contact info so I can gift you with one of these gems. After you spend the 2 minutes it takes to read it and 20 minutes to figure out what it's supposed to be, post here whether or not that's something you want encouraged. A thousand of these things a day being uploaded to DTRPG will end my relationship with them.
Language...
Didn't you say it was better than what's vhis face?
Actually, his crap makes me think he's actually using ChatGPT. It's usually a brief, one page description of a situation. No developed NPCs, no developed explanation of the situation for the GM to play off of, no maps, nothing. Everything is "player: here's the situation" and "GMs: this is the hidden fact and roll on this table in three days."
OTOH, Old School Roleplaying does 25-40 page adventures that really fill in all the necessary gaps for a GM to prep a session. Same audience, same price point, way better product. NPCs with stat blocks and necessary descriptors, locations, events, and branching results make them a good buy IMO.
Well if what's his face is using chatgpt he's a lazy fucker, he's not doing the work to have a good product, like I said, it can generate an adventure, usually a one page thing, but if you want it fleshed out you need to either keep prompting it to expand on the different parts or you need to flesh it out yourself.
Even if you keep prompting it you'll still need to do some work to have a decent product. Not only editing, you'll need to check for consistency since it fails at that.
I tried.
What I'm using it for is to produce the different columns of my tables.
It's so retarded it won't produce evil NPCs that are nazis, really, I asked it to do it. But it had no problem producing evil NPCs that were commies.
I've, too, found out chatgpt can inventory stuff well. I asked it to make me 7 Staves of the Archmagi and it did pretty good. I didn't ask for details, but the basics was all I needed.
There's more commies than nazis, so it might be doing you a favor. :)
Quote from: Jason Coplen on August 07, 2023, 06:47:07 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 02, 2023, 12:56:32 AM
Well if what's his face is using chatgpt he's a lazy fucker, he's not doing the work to have a good product, like I said, it can generate an adventure, usually a one page thing, but if you want it fleshed out you need to either keep prompting it to expand on the different parts or you need to flesh it out yourself.
Even if you keep prompting it you'll still need to do some work to have a decent product. Not only editing, you'll need to check for consistency since it fails at that.
I tried.
What I'm using it for is to produce the different columns of my tables.
It's so retarded it won't produce evil NPCs that are nazis, really, I asked it to do it. But it had no problem producing evil NPCs that were commies.
I've, too, found out chatgpt can inventory stuff well. I asked it to make me 7 Staves of the Archmagi and it did pretty good. I didn't ask for details, but the basics was all I needed.
There's more commies than nazis, so it might be doing you a favor. :)
Overcoming writter's block, generating random tables one column at the time, generating ideas for stuff you will flesh out, that's the stuff it can do reasonably well.
Thing is the Nazi NPCs are for a Pulp game set after WWII, so I need both, but converting Commies into Nazis isn't all that difficult (I also had to create the stats for those since the ones it gave me are wonky because it always reverts to 5e).
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 07, 2023, 06:53:39 PM
Quote from: Jason Coplen on August 07, 2023, 06:47:07 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 02, 2023, 12:56:32 AM
Well if what's his face is using chatgpt he's a lazy fucker, he's not doing the work to have a good product, like I said, it can generate an adventure, usually a one page thing, but if you want it fleshed out you need to either keep prompting it to expand on the different parts or you need to flesh it out yourself.
Even if you keep prompting it you'll still need to do some work to have a decent product. Not only editing, you'll need to check for consistency since it fails at that.
I tried.
What I'm using it for is to produce the different columns of my tables.
It's so retarded it won't produce evil NPCs that are nazis, really, I asked it to do it. But it had no problem producing evil NPCs that were commies.
I've, too, found out chatgpt can inventory stuff well. I asked it to make me 7 Staves of the Archmagi and it did pretty good. I didn't ask for details, but the basics was all I needed.
There's more commies than nazis, so it might be doing you a favor. :)
Overcoming writter's block, generating random tables one column at the time, generating ideas for stuff you will flesh out, that's the stuff it can do reasonably well.
Thing is the Nazi NPCs are for a Pulp game set after WWII, so I need both, but converting Commies into Nazis isn't all that difficult (I also had to create the stats for those since the ones it gave me are wonky because it always reverts to 5e).
That sucks! You'd think one of the leftards would have considered that, but they probably think the Nazis were the good guys regardless of how many times they call them evil. Mind you, they're evil, but the left has used the slur so many times it's impotent.
Quote from: Jason Coplen on August 07, 2023, 07:34:11 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 07, 2023, 06:53:39 PM
Quote from: Jason Coplen on August 07, 2023, 06:47:07 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 02, 2023, 12:56:32 AM
Well if what's his face is using chatgpt he's a lazy fucker, he's not doing the work to have a good product, like I said, it can generate an adventure, usually a one page thing, but if you want it fleshed out you need to either keep prompting it to expand on the different parts or you need to flesh it out yourself.
Even if you keep prompting it you'll still need to do some work to have a decent product. Not only editing, you'll need to check for consistency since it fails at that.
I tried.
What I'm using it for is to produce the different columns of my tables.
It's so retarded it won't produce evil NPCs that are nazis, really, I asked it to do it. But it had no problem producing evil NPCs that were commies.
I've, too, found out chatgpt can inventory stuff well. I asked it to make me 7 Staves of the Archmagi and it did pretty good. I didn't ask for details, but the basics was all I needed.
There's more commies than nazis, so it might be doing you a favor. :)
Overcoming writter's block, generating random tables one column at the time, generating ideas for stuff you will flesh out, that's the stuff it can do reasonably well.
Thing is the Nazi NPCs are for a Pulp game set after WWII, so I need both, but converting Commies into Nazis isn't all that difficult (I also had to create the stats for those since the ones it gave me are wonky because it always reverts to 5e).
That sucks! You'd think one of the leftards would have considered that, but they probably think the Nazis were the good guys regardless of how many times they call them evil. Mind you, they're evil, but the left has used the slur so many times it's impotent.
In 30 minutes, I have the gunporn for one game, I still need to stat things out (if I choose to stat every one and not got Small/Medium/Large), IF I choose to go the simple way I already have the stats for those from a different project and can add the firearms list as is to the game.
Try and do that by hand and tell me how long it took you.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 09, 2023, 06:57:16 PM
In 30 minutes, I have the gunporn for one game, I still need to stat things out (if I choose to stat every one and not got Small/Medium/Large), IF I choose to go the simple way I already have the stats for those from a different project and can add the firearms list as is to the game.
If you want to stat them out individually, let me know. I can help.
Quote from: BadApple on August 09, 2023, 07:29:40 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 09, 2023, 06:57:16 PM
In 30 minutes, I have the gunporn for one game, I still need to stat things out (if I choose to stat every one and not got Small/Medium/Large), IF I choose to go the simple way I already have the stats for those from a different project and can add the firearms list as is to the game.
If you want to stat them out individually, let me know. I can help.
Wilco roger
I asked ChatGPT to write a review of the AD&D Player's Handbook. Overall it was solid, if generic, but here is the kicker:
Quote"Now, no review would be complete without discussing Inclusivity."
"By today's standards, AD&D had its flaws. Gender-based ability score caps and certain stereotypes in depictions are now outdated. It's a product of its time, but it's essential to view it critically while also appreciating its historical context."
The biggest danger of AI isn't that it's going to replace jobs, but that it is going to lead us into a dystopian cultural Marxist hellhole.
Quote from: Thor's Nads on August 09, 2023, 09:51:57 PM
I asked ChatGPT to write a review of the AD&D Player's Handbook. Overall it was solid, if generic, but here is the kicker:
Quote"Now, no review would be complete without discussing Inclusivity."
"By today's standards, AD&D had its flaws. Gender-based ability score caps and certain stereotypes in depictions are now outdated. It's a product of its time, but it's essential to view it critically while also appreciating its historical context."
The biggest danger of AI isn't that it's going to replace jobs, but that it is going to lead us into a dystopian cultural Marxist hellhole.
Use the DAN jailbreak.
Quote from: BadApple on August 01, 2023, 09:08:13 PM
Quote from: Scooter on August 01, 2023, 08:49:18 PM
Quote from: BadApple on August 01, 2023, 08:39:41 PM
What I'm concerned with is that AI will be used to churn out low effort, low quality, zero value material so fast it floods the market completely.
Then don't fucking buy it. OR, are you insane and want to make it so no one else can buy what YOU don't like? So far that is what you are saying...
Ok, so let me paint a picture for you. I open DTRPG and I get "84 new titles since your last visit." Do I have time to go through each and every one of them to see if I think there might be value in it for me? Nope. Fortunately, I can do a quick scan right now and pare that down to about 8 that I want to look over by looking at they system it runs on, dismissing publishers I know I don't care for, and ignoring VTT assets.
Now imagine if there's 85,000 new titles a day. The reality is that there will still only be 8 that hold any interest to me but I cannot find them for the pig shit they're covered in.
Let's not kid ourselves here. AI created games can be churned out with a few prompts, add a few AI art splashes, and dumped onto DTRPG in a matter of minutes. The problems is, this will produce a lot of non playable and uninteresting games that no one will want. One person could easily double the total items for sale on DTRPG in a few weeks. A couple of dozen grifters could straight up choke the OneBookshelf servers into complete uselessness in a month.
I don't expect every TTRPG product to cater to me. I do expect every TTRPG product to be functional and appeal to some tables somewhere or die and fade away. I also expect honest game developers to actually care about the product they sell and to do some play testing before release. There's a lot of dishonest publishers already and AI will enable a lot more.
There's a legitimate argument, for sure, for DTRPG to ban entirely AI-written books. I think that this is not something that will lead to a big industry shift, anyways, because writing a bunch of crap and trying to flood the market usually just kills the market, it doesn't make the flooders rich.
Quote from: BadApple on August 01, 2023, 09:59:44 PM
As I mentioned before, I think the best solution would be an "education rather than regulation" approach.
DON'T DATE ROBOTS!!
I'll admit, I do intend to use AI in my own projects as a production aid, not a replacement for anything.
For example, I can now have character art for every throw away NPC!
Or I can use it to summarize my 12 pages of rambling notes on a specific faction into something readable then rewrite that into something moderately coherent.
Or even use it in place of the myriad of random generators already on the internet when I need names and physical descriptions.
It's a tool. That's all.
Sounds as if before too long there is going to be a market for "artisan RPG products". Last I heard, the Shakers were still selling well enough to stay in the furniture business, even with all the shoddy alternatives available. Whether the owners of DriveThruRPG are smart enough to cater to the market one way or the other (e.g. useful filters) remains to be seen.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 10, 2023, 09:25:53 AM
Sounds as if before too long there is going to be a market for "artisan RPG products". Last I heard, the Shakers were still selling well enough to stay in the furniture business, even with all the shoddy alternatives available. Whether the owners of DriveThruRPG are smart enough to cater to the market one way or the other (e.g. useful filters) remains to be seen.
We want some of their hickory furniture. But it's soooo expensive.
That's actually an incredible marketing niche. Imagine being able to give an AI say, the Cepheus SRD and all of Larry Corriea's Monster Hunter novels (fill in your own favorite IP), and say "create me a 2d6 game, with 6 careers, sample stats for the top 12 most commonly seen characters, etc." Or to do the same for your buddy's or young niece's random storyline/adventure/world.
Ooh. Or, as a writer, give it your own, published work, world notes, and unpublished manuscript and ask "are there any inconsistencies or continuity problems?"
Quote from: Tod13 on August 10, 2023, 09:32:58 AM
We want some of their hickory furniture. But it's soooo expensive.
That's actually an incredible marketing niche. Imagine being able to give an AI say, the Cepheus SRD and all of Larry Corriea's Monster Hunter novels (fill in your own favorite IP), and say "create me a 2d6 game, with 6 careers, sample stats for the top 12 most commonly seen characters, etc." Or to do the same for your buddy's or young niece's random storyline/adventure/world.
Ooh. Or, as a writer, give it your own, published work, world notes, and unpublished manuscript and ask "are there any inconsistencies or continuity problems?"
Okay, as someone who plays with LLM generative AI a lot (got a 3090, can run a 30b AI model locally)
They're not nearly that competent or consistent.
The thing to remember about generative AI is it looks very smart... until it turns
completely fucking stupid.
Quote from: Psyckosama on August 10, 2023, 09:48:22 AM
Quote from: Tod13 on August 10, 2023, 09:32:58 AM
We want some of their hickory furniture. But it's soooo expensive.
That's actually an incredible marketing niche. Imagine being able to give an AI say, the Cepheus SRD and all of Larry Corriea's Monster Hunter novels (fill in your own favorite IP), and say "create me a 2d6 game, with 6 careers, sample stats for the top 12 most commonly seen characters, etc." Or to do the same for your buddy's or young niece's random storyline/adventure/world.
Ooh. Or, as a writer, give it your own, published work, world notes, and unpublished manuscript and ask "are there any inconsistencies or continuity problems?"
Okay, as someone who plays with LLM generative AI a lot (got a 3090, can run a 30b AI model locally)
They're not nearly that competent or consistent.
The thing to remember about generative AI is it looks very smart... until it turns completely fucking stupid.
Hence the "
Imagine being able to". The point is, Steven came up with a cool idea to use AI as part of a business, instead of ignoring it and getting trampled.
Quote from: Tod13 on August 10, 2023, 09:51:48 AM
Hence the "Imagine being able to". The point is, Steven came up with a cool idea to use AI as part of a business, instead of ignoring it and getting trampled.
Nope, or at least I wouldn't put it like that. My idea is that lousy AI will create a demand for artisans doing it the old-fashioned way. When there is a lot of mass-produced crap, it sometimes opens up a market for hand-crafted quality. Maybe not a dominant market--but nevertheless a useful one for the producer and the consumer of that quality alternative. Heck, "organic food" is mostly smoke and mirrors, and it's a multi-billion dollar business. :)
Not as if this is anything new, either. "Artificially Stupid" mass produced gaming products is not the only way to have a glut of stupid stuff. See the d20 glut for another example. It's just the latest way to do it.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 10, 2023, 10:41:55 AM
Quote from: Tod13 on August 10, 2023, 09:51:48 AM
Hence the "Imagine being able to". The point is, Steven came up with a cool idea to use AI as part of a business, instead of ignoring it and getting trampled.
Nope, or at least I wouldn't put it like that. My idea is that lousy AI will create a demand for artisans doing it the old-fashioned way. When there is a lot of mass-produced crap, it sometimes opens up a market for hand-crafted quality. Maybe not a dominant market--but nevertheless a useful one for the producer and the consumer of that quality alternative. Heck, "organic food" is mostly smoke and mirrors, and it's a multi-billion dollar business. :)
Not as if this is anything new, either. "Artificially Stupid" mass produced gaming products is not the only way to have a glut of stupid stuff. See the d20 glut for another example. It's just the latest way to do it.
LOL. You came up with the idea. You just didn't know it.
As always the problem is finding the good stuff.
Quote from: Tod13 on August 10, 2023, 10:57:53 AM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 10, 2023, 10:41:55 AM
Quote from: Tod13 on August 10, 2023, 09:51:48 AM
Hence the "Imagine being able to". The point is, Steven came up with a cool idea to use AI as part of a business, instead of ignoring it and getting trampled.
Nope, or at least I wouldn't put it like that. My idea is that lousy AI will create a demand for artisans doing it the old-fashioned way. When there is a lot of mass-produced crap, it sometimes opens up a market for hand-crafted quality. Maybe not a dominant market--but nevertheless a useful one for the producer and the consumer of that quality alternative. Heck, "organic food" is mostly smoke and mirrors, and it's a multi-billion dollar business. :)
Not as if this is anything new, either. "Artificially Stupid" mass produced gaming products is not the only way to have a glut of stupid stuff. See the d20 glut for another example. It's just the latest way to do it.
LOL. You came up with the idea. You just didn't know it.
As always the problem is finding the good stuff.
There's NO WAY to "Mass Produce" RPGs using any of the bots, I doubt we'll see one that can in the near future.
So far it's only use is to speed research, spit out lists of names to build a table one column at the time and maybe to give you the starting point of an adventure, because all the bots ARE incredibly stupid (probably because their programmers are stupid too).
So, unless someone tells you they used a bot (or they just prompt it and sell exactly that drivel without any work), how are you going to know if they used the bot as a tool? The speed of publishing? I can artificially slow it (supossing it really allowed me to publish faster which I doubt).
Unlike furniture (which can be mass produced with every item being identical to the others) there's no blueprint/STL/etc you can use to program the bot to spit out a finished game or module.
Think of it like the difference between buying your lumber from a yard or going and cutting the trees yourself, then milling the wood, drying it and after a few years being able to use it to make a chair. The bot can speed up your process by speeding up the research, that's all.
The bots are stupid because they're stochastic parrots. They don't understand anything. They've been trained to produce output we find superficially comprehensible based on statistical analysis of our writings.
Which is why it's such a stupid idea to outsource our own thinking to bots. Your brain works like muscle: if you don't exercise your intellect and imagination, then your mind atrophies.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 10, 2023, 02:48:54 PM
The bots are stupid because they're stochastic parrots. They don't understand anything. They've been trained to produce output we find superficially comprehensible based on statistical analysis of our writings.
Which is why it's such a stupid idea to outsource our own thinking to bots. Your brain works like muscle: if you don't exercise your intellect and imagination, then your mind atrophies.
What is understanding?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 10, 2023, 02:48:54 PM
The bots are stupid because they're stochastic parrots. They don't understand anything. They've been trained to produce output we find superficially comprehensible based on statistical analysis of our writings.
Which is why it's such a stupid idea to outsource our own thinking to bots. Your brain works like muscle: if you don't exercise your intellect and imagination, then your mind atrophies.
chatgpt, please give me a list of 20 uncommon spanish surnames
Output
Did I outsource my thinking? I think not, I thought of getting the uncommon spanish surnames, but instead of doing the research by hand I outsourced the legwork to the bot.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 10, 2023, 03:38:56 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 10, 2023, 02:48:54 PM
The bots are stupid because they're stochastic parrots. They don't understand anything. They've been trained to produce output we find superficially comprehensible based on statistical analysis of our writings.
Which is why it's such a stupid idea to outsource our own thinking to bots. Your brain works like muscle: if you don't exercise your intellect and imagination, then your mind atrophies.
chatgpt, please give me a list of 20 uncommon spanish surnames
Output
Did I outsource my thinking? I think not, I thought of getting the uncommon spanish surnames, but instead of doing the research by hand I outsourced the legwork to the bot.
I don't trust chatgpt to provide trustworthy info. I asked it to give me the frequency and it said that it cannot provide citations or statistics for anything it says and told me to do my own research.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 10, 2023, 04:36:00 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 10, 2023, 03:38:56 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 10, 2023, 02:48:54 PM
The bots are stupid because they're stochastic parrots. They don't understand anything. They've been trained to produce output we find superficially comprehensible based on statistical analysis of our writings.
Which is why it's such a stupid idea to outsource our own thinking to bots. Your brain works like muscle: if you don't exercise your intellect and imagination, then your mind atrophies.
chatgpt, please give me a list of 20 uncommon spanish surnames
Output
Did I outsource my thinking? I think not, I thought of getting the uncommon spanish surnames, but instead of doing the research by hand I outsourced the legwork to the bot.
I don't trust chatgpt to provide trustworthy info. I asked it to give me the frequency and it said that it cannot provide citations or statistics for anything it says and told me to do my own research.
Not only that, ChatGPT flat out lies. I've had it invent sources, munge two sources into one, and cite an actual source that had zero information on the topic.
It is after all a chat bot, not a research assistant.
Quote from: rytrasmi on August 10, 2023, 04:45:27 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 10, 2023, 04:36:00 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 10, 2023, 03:38:56 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 10, 2023, 02:48:54 PM
The bots are stupid because they're stochastic parrots. They don't understand anything. They've been trained to produce output we find superficially comprehensible based on statistical analysis of our writings.
Which is why it's such a stupid idea to outsource our own thinking to bots. Your brain works like muscle: if you don't exercise your intellect and imagination, then your mind atrophies.
chatgpt, please give me a list of 20 uncommon spanish surnames
Output
Did I outsource my thinking? I think not, I thought of getting the uncommon spanish surnames, but instead of doing the research by hand I outsourced the legwork to the bot.
I don't trust chatgpt to provide trustworthy info. I asked it to give me the frequency and it said that it cannot provide citations or statistics for anything it says and told me to do my own research.
Not only that, ChatGPT flat out lies. I've had it invent sources, munge two sources into one, and cite an actual source that had zero information on the topic.
It is after all a chat bot, not a research assistant.
All of which would be relevant if I was making scientific research, I'm making research for an RPG, if it's not 100% accurate nobody will die because of it.
Besides you can always check an asortment of the things.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 10, 2023, 04:52:18 PM
All of which would be relevant if I was making scientific research, I'm making research for an RPG, if it's not 100% accurate nobody will die because of it.
Besides you can always check an asortment of the things.
Yes, making an appeal to extremes isn't a good way to argue this.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 10, 2023, 04:36:00 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 10, 2023, 03:38:56 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 10, 2023, 02:48:54 PM
The bots are stupid because they're stochastic parrots. They don't understand anything. They've been trained to produce output we find superficially comprehensible based on statistical analysis of our writings.
Which is why it's such a stupid idea to outsource our own thinking to bots. Your brain works like muscle: if you don't exercise your intellect and imagination, then your mind atrophies.
chatgpt, please give me a list of 20 uncommon spanish surnames
Output
Did I outsource my thinking? I think not, I thought of getting the uncommon spanish surnames, but instead of doing the research by hand I outsourced the legwork to the bot.
I don't trust chatgpt to provide trustworthy info. I asked it to give me the frequency and it said that it cannot provide citations or statistics for anything it says and told me to do my own research.
https://www.perplexity.ai/search/f297a106-9546-49a5-af76-3c93bad69f94?s=u (https://www.perplexity.ai/search/f297a106-9546-49a5-af76-3c93bad69f94?s=u)
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 09, 2023, 10:44:50 PM
Use the DAN jailbreak.
Sure, that works for power users but normies are going to just type in their questions and get the woke response, and Marxist revisionist history.
Quote from: Tod13 on August 10, 2023, 06:19:15 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 10, 2023, 04:36:00 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 10, 2023, 03:38:56 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 10, 2023, 02:48:54 PM
The bots are stupid because they're stochastic parrots. They don't understand anything. They've been trained to produce output we find superficially comprehensible based on statistical analysis of our writings.
Which is why it's such a stupid idea to outsource our own thinking to bots. Your brain works like muscle: if you don't exercise your intellect and imagination, then your mind atrophies.
chatgpt, please give me a list of 20 uncommon spanish surnames
Output
Did I outsource my thinking? I think not, I thought of getting the uncommon spanish surnames, but instead of doing the research by hand I outsourced the legwork to the bot.
I don't trust chatgpt to provide trustworthy info. I asked it to give me the frequency and it said that it cannot provide citations or statistics for anything it says and told me to do my own research.
https://www.perplexity.ai/search/f297a106-9546-49a5-af76-3c93bad69f94?s=u (https://www.perplexity.ai/search/f297a106-9546-49a5-af76-3c93bad69f94?s=u)
Did you bother to read the answer or were you lazily looking for a quick gotcha because you're feeling contrarian? It gives the useless non-answer "It is difficult to determine how frequently these surnames occur, as they are considered uncommon. However, according to 6, the most popular Hispanic last name in the United States is Garcia, with a total count of 1,073,180 people who have the surname."
That's the exact opposite of what is being asked for. It's not even difficult to find the frequency because there are numerous ancestry websites that trawl public records to get statistics. These AI can't even do that much. How the fuck do these pieces of shit even know their answer is correct if they can't even cite simple publicly available statistics?
I'm not saying AI is
completely useless, but its utility is extremely specific to the point that I don't need to use it to begin with. Most of the time I do use AI I want to punch my fist through the screen.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 10, 2023, 07:07:32 PM
Quote from: Tod13 on August 10, 2023, 06:19:15 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 10, 2023, 04:36:00 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 10, 2023, 03:38:56 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 10, 2023, 02:48:54 PM
The bots are stupid because they're stochastic parrots. They don't understand anything. They've been trained to produce output we find superficially comprehensible based on statistical analysis of our writings.
Which is why it's such a stupid idea to outsource our own thinking to bots. Your brain works like muscle: if you don't exercise your intellect and imagination, then your mind atrophies.
chatgpt, please give me a list of 20 uncommon spanish surnames
Output
Did I outsource my thinking? I think not, I thought of getting the uncommon spanish surnames, but instead of doing the research by hand I outsourced the legwork to the bot.
I don't trust chatgpt to provide trustworthy info. I asked it to give me the frequency and it said that it cannot provide citations or statistics for anything it says and told me to do my own research.
https://www.perplexity.ai/search/f297a106-9546-49a5-af76-3c93bad69f94?s=u (https://www.perplexity.ai/search/f297a106-9546-49a5-af76-3c93bad69f94?s=u)
Did you bother to read the answer or were you lazily looking for a quick gotcha because you're feeling contrarian? It gives the useless non-answer "It is difficult to determine how frequently these surnames occur, as they are considered uncommon. However, according to 6, the most popular Hispanic last name in the United States is Garcia, with a total count of 1,073,180 people who have the surname."
That's the exact opposite of what is being asked for. It's not even difficult to find the frequency because there are numerous ancestry websites that trawl public records to get statistics. These AI can't even do that much. How the fuck do these pieces of shit even know their answer is correct if they can't even cite simple publicly available statistics?
I'm not saying AI is completely useless, but its utility is extremely specific to the point that I don't need to use it to begin with. Most of the time I do use AI I want to punch my fist through the screen.
Well, as someone with a foot in TWO hispanic countries and cultures those ARE uncommon, maybe not the least common but certainly you don't find too many people with those surnames even in México or Spain, I would guess neither in the US.
And it IS giving you the sources on the top.
https://www.perplexity.ai/search/ab342eb9-f71d-48b0-bc56-4aef3fcf027a?s=u (https://www.perplexity.ai/search/ab342eb9-f71d-48b0-bc56-4aef3fcf027a?s=u)
Quote from: Thor's Nads on August 10, 2023, 06:53:39 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 09, 2023, 10:44:50 PM
Use the DAN jailbreak.
Sure, that works for power users but normies are going to just type in their questions and get the woke response, and Marxist revisionist history.
I agree, I said it before either in this or another AI related thread, the biggest danger these bots present is the people doing the programming and censoring.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 10, 2023, 07:07:32 PM
Quote from: Tod13 on August 10, 2023, 06:19:15 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 10, 2023, 04:36:00 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 10, 2023, 03:38:56 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 10, 2023, 02:48:54 PM
The bots are stupid because they're stochastic parrots. They don't understand anything. They've been trained to produce output we find superficially comprehensible based on statistical analysis of our writings.
Which is why it's such a stupid idea to outsource our own thinking to bots. Your brain works like muscle: if you don't exercise your intellect and imagination, then your mind atrophies.
chatgpt, please give me a list of 20 uncommon spanish surnames
Output
Did I outsource my thinking? I think not, I thought of getting the uncommon spanish surnames, but instead of doing the research by hand I outsourced the legwork to the bot.
I don't trust chatgpt to provide trustworthy info. I asked it to give me the frequency and it said that it cannot provide citations or statistics for anything it says and told me to do my own research.
https://www.perplexity.ai/search/f297a106-9546-49a5-af76-3c93bad69f94?s=u (https://www.perplexity.ai/search/f297a106-9546-49a5-af76-3c93bad69f94?s=u)
Did you bother to read the answer or were you lazily looking for a quick gotcha because you're feeling contrarian? It gives the useless non-answer "It is difficult to determine how frequently these surnames occur, as they are considered uncommon. However, according to 6, the most popular Hispanic last name in the United States is Garcia, with a total count of 1,073,180 people who have the surname."
That's the exact opposite of what is being asked for. It's not even difficult to find the frequency because there are numerous ancestry websites that trawl public records to get statistics. These AI can't even do that much. How the fuck do these pieces of shit even know their answer is correct if they can't even cite simple publicly available statistics?
I'm not saying AI is completely useless, but its utility is extremely specific to the point that I don't need to use it to begin with. Most of the time I do use AI I want to punch my fist through the screen.
Perplexity gives you the sources for its answers. Which was half your gripe.
And it says it can't determine frequency, because they're so rare. Which was the other half. And gives you link to a place that might allow you to look up frequencies.
ETA: removed useless griping.
Quote from: Thor's Nads on August 10, 2023, 06:53:39 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 09, 2023, 10:44:50 PM
Use the DAN jailbreak.
Sure, that works for power users but normies are going to just type in their questions and get the woke response, and Marxist revisionist history.
So true. History has been rewritten and injected into these "AI" bots
Quote from: Tod13 on August 10, 2023, 07:43:28 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 10, 2023, 07:07:32 PM
Quote from: Tod13 on August 10, 2023, 06:19:15 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 10, 2023, 04:36:00 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 10, 2023, 03:38:56 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 10, 2023, 02:48:54 PM
The bots are stupid because they're stochastic parrots. They don't understand anything. They've been trained to produce output we find superficially comprehensible based on statistical analysis of our writings.
Which is why it's such a stupid idea to outsource our own thinking to bots. Your brain works like muscle: if you don't exercise your intellect and imagination, then your mind atrophies.
chatgpt, please give me a list of 20 uncommon spanish surnames
Output
Did I outsource my thinking? I think not, I thought of getting the uncommon spanish surnames, but instead of doing the research by hand I outsourced the legwork to the bot.
I don't trust chatgpt to provide trustworthy info. I asked it to give me the frequency and it said that it cannot provide citations or statistics for anything it says and told me to do my own research.
https://www.perplexity.ai/search/f297a106-9546-49a5-af76-3c93bad69f94?s=u (https://www.perplexity.ai/search/f297a106-9546-49a5-af76-3c93bad69f94?s=u)
Did you bother to read the answer or were you lazily looking for a quick gotcha because you're feeling contrarian? It gives the useless non-answer "It is difficult to determine how frequently these surnames occur, as they are considered uncommon. However, according to 6, the most popular Hispanic last name in the United States is Garcia, with a total count of 1,073,180 people who have the surname."
That's the exact opposite of what is being asked for. It's not even difficult to find the frequency because there are numerous ancestry websites that trawl public records to get statistics. These AI can't even do that much. How the fuck do these pieces of shit even know their answer is correct if they can't even cite simple publicly available statistics?
I'm not saying AI is completely useless, but its utility is extremely specific to the point that I don't need to use it to begin with. Most of the time I do use AI I want to punch my fist through the screen.
Perplexity gives you the sources for its answers. Which was half your gripe.
And it says it can't determine frequency, because they're so rare. Which was the other half. And gives you link to a place that might allow you to look up frequencies.
ETA: removed useless griping.
Did you check the sources to make sure they say what you claim they say? No? Then stop pretending you're giving a remotely credible rebuttal.
Quote from: Scooter on August 10, 2023, 07:51:05 PM
Quote from: Thor's Nads on August 10, 2023, 06:53:39 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 09, 2023, 10:44:50 PM
Use the DAN jailbreak.
Sure, that works for power users but normies are going to just type in their questions and get the woke response, and Marxist revisionist history.
So true. History has been rewritten and injected into these "AI" bots
Indeed. Most people already automatically believe whatever the first page of a google search tells them. With AI it will only get worse. Most are lazy and will always take the easiest way.
The following is a very solid (2+ hours) video discussing many of the issues associated with AI Art, including the things both sides are incorrect about. It really helped put matters into more context for me (I feel better about it in some ways, while in other ways I'm now far more cynical about the reasons its ACTUALLY being pushed... hint - its not actually to help out the little guys).
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 10, 2023, 07:36:43 PM
Quote from: Thor's Nads on August 10, 2023, 06:53:39 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 09, 2023, 10:44:50 PM
Use the DAN jailbreak.
Sure, that works for power users but normies are going to just type in their questions and get the woke response, and Marxist revisionist history.
I agree, I said it before either in this or another AI related thread, the biggest danger these bots present is the people doing the programming and censoring.
So it turns out OpenAI squashed DAN. Doesn't work anymore.
Quote from: Thor's Nads on August 10, 2023, 11:05:21 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 10, 2023, 07:36:43 PM
Quote from: Thor's Nads on August 10, 2023, 06:53:39 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 09, 2023, 10:44:50 PM
Use the DAN jailbreak.
Sure, that works for power users but normies are going to just type in their questions and get the woke response, and Marxist revisionist history.
I agree, I said it before either in this or another AI related thread, the biggest danger these bots present is the people doing the programming and censoring.
So it turns out OpenAI squashed DAN. Doesn't work anymore.
Had to be, try downloading and installing GPT4All