My thoughts? I'm a creative, it's how I make my living. Computer programs that crunch an artist's ideas without their permission, and then produce content that can make money and not pay the original artist anything? I vote No. Shrugging and saying "the cat's out of the bag" is the opposite of helpful. If people would instead vote with their wallets, about everything odious, we might have a better world.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 04:42:12 PM
It saddens me to see how many are so quick to embrace this without stoping to think a little bit as to the end result, let me elaborate:

You, John Doe won't be able to use free art that looks kinda decent, you'll be forced to use the same public domain art everybody else is using, pony up money for shitty art (since you don't have the money) or don't use ANY art at all. Thus making your product less visually appealing than the big boys who can pay for good art.

You, John Doe will be under the sword of Damocles of your shit being reported as AI written by any asshole and we know how DTTRPG handles those things, your shit gets taken down until they investigate or you can prove a negative, but the big boys won't be ever under such a threat because who would believe you if you said WotKKK used AI to write their next bullshit setting?

And the big boys have the money to install and run their own AI and train it with their own old shit so they could perfectly use AI and no one would know.

So, in the end this is just another example of a regulation "to protect the consumer" being really a regulation to protect the big boys.

It's a big club and you're not in it.

I'm under no illusion that any of the AI hatting people will change their tune, "it's gonna flood DTTRPG with badly written drivel!" Dude, have you been to DTTRPG latelly? It is already flooded with shit! By design if you ask me, it makes it harder for the small player to be found while not affecting the big boys in the very least.

Yup there's tons of crap out there already. With AI there will be a lot more crap that looks pretty and sounds well written but is still essentially crap.

You're saying there are brilliant designers who can't catch a break because art and editing are too expensive? Instead of dooming about AI bans, tell us who these people are so we can buy their games.

Quote from: rytrasmi on August 01, 2023, 05:39:01 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 04:42:12 PM
It saddens me to see how many are so quick to embrace this without stoping to think a little bit as to the end result, let me elaborate:

You, John Doe won't be able to use free art that looks kinda decent, you'll be forced to use the same public domain art everybody else is using, pony up money for shitty art (since you don't have the money) or don't use ANY art at all. Thus making your product less visually appealing than the big boys who can pay for good art.

You, John Doe will be under the sword of Damocles of your shit being reported as AI written by any asshole and we know how DTTRPG handles those things, your shit gets taken down until they investigate or you can prove a negative, but the big boys won't be ever under such a threat because who would believe you if you said WotKKK used AI to write their next bullshit setting?

And the big boys have the money to install and run their own AI and train it with their own old shit so they could perfectly use AI and no one would know.

So, in the end this is just another example of a regulation "to protect the consumer" being really a regulation to protect the big boys.

It's a big club and you're not in it.

I'm under no illusion that any of the AI hatting people will change their tune, "it's gonna flood DTTRPG with badly written drivel!" Dude, have you been to DTTRPG latelly? It is already flooded with shit! By design if you ask me, it makes it harder for the small player to be found while not affecting the big boys in the very least.

Yup there's tons of crap out there already. With AI there will be a lot more crap that looks pretty and sounds well written but is still essentially crap.

You're saying there are brilliant designers who can't catch a break because art and editing are too expensive? Instead of dooming about AI bans, tell us who these people are so we can buy their games.

No, I'm saying this will be used to protect the big boys from competition, as all regulations are. It will also be used to persecute people over political issues, and you know that one is a fact.

Quote from: Baron on August 01, 2023, 05:34:26 PM
My thoughts? I'm a creative, it's how I make my living. Computer programs that crunch an artist's ideas without their permission, and then produce content that can make money and not pay the original artist anything? I vote No. Shrugging and saying "the cat's out of the bag" is the opposite of helpful. If people would instead vote with their wallets, about everything odious, we might have a better world.

EVERY artist ever learned from those who came before, training a program using art is the same. Can you prove ANY "AI" has plagiarized anyone? Or is your position that no one should be able to use the techniques of the classics because that's "crunching their ideas"?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 06:02:44 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on August 01, 2023, 05:39:01 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 04:42:12 PM
It saddens me to see how many are so quick to embrace this without stoping to think a little bit as to the end result, let me elaborate:

You, John Doe won't be able to use free art that looks kinda decent, you'll be forced to use the same public domain art everybody else is using, pony up money for shitty art (since you don't have the money) or don't use ANY art at all. Thus making your product less visually appealing than the big boys who can pay for good art.

You, John Doe will be under the sword of Damocles of your shit being reported as AI written by any asshole and we know how DTTRPG handles those things, your shit gets taken down until they investigate or you can prove a negative, but the big boys won't be ever under such a threat because who would believe you if you said WotKKK used AI to write their next bullshit setting?

And the big boys have the money to install and run their own AI and train it with their own old shit so they could perfectly use AI and no one would know.

So, in the end this is just another example of a regulation "to protect the consumer" being really a regulation to protect the big boys.

It's a big club and you're not in it.

I'm under no illusion that any of the AI hatting people will change their tune, "it's gonna flood DTTRPG with badly written drivel!" Dude, have you been to DTTRPG latelly? It is already flooded with shit! By design if you ask me, it makes it harder for the small player to be found while not affecting the big boys in the very least.

Yup there's tons of crap out there already. With AI there will be a lot more crap that looks pretty and sounds well written but is still essentially crap.

You're saying there are brilliant designers who can't catch a break because art and editing are too expensive? Instead of dooming about AI bans, tell us who these people are so we can buy their games.

No, I'm saying this will be used to protect the big boys from competition, as all regulations are. It will also be used to persecute people over political issues, and you know that one is a fact.

They can take down anyone's product for any reason right now. The fact is takedowns are very rare because, like all online retailers, Drive Thru wants more product to sell, not less. In other words, they don't need to use AI as an excuse. If they wanted to "regulate" the small guy out of business they would have done that already.

Besides who the fuck is buying big brand materials from Drive Thru? Most would go to the source for in print materials.

Quote from: rytrasmi on August 01, 2023, 06:38:02 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 06:02:44 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on August 01, 2023, 05:39:01 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 04:42:12 PM
It saddens me to see how many are so quick to embrace this without stoping to think a little bit as to the end result, let me elaborate:

You, John Doe won't be able to use free art that looks kinda decent, you'll be forced to use the same public domain art everybody else is using, pony up money for shitty art (since you don't have the money) or don't use ANY art at all. Thus making your product less visually appealing than the big boys who can pay for good art.

You, John Doe will be under the sword of Damocles of your shit being reported as AI written by any asshole and we know how DTTRPG handles those things, your shit gets taken down until they investigate or you can prove a negative, but the big boys won't be ever under such a threat because who would believe you if you said WotKKK used AI to write their next bullshit setting?

And the big boys have the money to install and run their own AI and train it with their own old shit so they could perfectly use AI and no one would know.

So, in the end this is just another example of a regulation "to protect the consumer" being really a regulation to protect the big boys.

It's a big club and you're not in it.

I'm under no illusion that any of the AI hatting people will change their tune, "it's gonna flood DTTRPG with badly written drivel!" Dude, have you been to DTTRPG latelly? It is already flooded with shit! By design if you ask me, it makes it harder for the small player to be found while not affecting the big boys in the very least.

Yup there's tons of crap out there already. With AI there will be a lot more crap that looks pretty and sounds well written but is still essentially crap.

You're saying there are brilliant designers who can't catch a break because art and editing are too expensive? Instead of dooming about AI bans, tell us who these people are so we can buy their games.

No, I'm saying this will be used to protect the big boys from competition, as all regulations are. It will also be used to persecute people over political issues, and you know that one is a fact.

They can take down anyone's product for any reason right now. The fact is takedowns are very rare because, like all online retailers, Drive Thru wants more product to sell, not less. In other words, they don't need to use AI as an excuse. If they wanted to "regulate" the small guy out of business they would have done that already.

Besides who the fuck is buying big brand materials from Drive Thru? Most would go to the source for in print materials.

You don't get it, I'm NOT talking ONLY about Drive Thru regulating anyone out of business, I'm talking about assholes reporting someone's content as being AI written. Because you voted wrong. Do you get it now?

Edited to add:

Now, let's adress the Drive Thru thing:

Are big third party publishers on it? YES, they already have the money to pay for art of much better quality than me for instance, regulating that AI generated art is verbotten means I have now an increased cost to compete with the guys already in the market. Which by extension means the big boys have LESS competition to worry about.

Every regulation that increases the cost to enter a market IS protecting the big players already in said market. Even if those players aren't selling in Drive Thru.

Quote from: Baron on August 01, 2023, 05:34:26 PM
My thoughts? I'm a creative, it's how I make my living. Computer programs that crunch an artist's ideas without their permission, and then produce content that can make money and not pay the original artist anything? I vote No. Shrugging and saying "the cat's out of the bag" is the opposite of helpful. If people would instead vote with their wallets, about everything odious, we might have a better world.

No, saying "the cat's out of the bag" is observing REALITY. The tech already exists. There's NO unringing that bell already. Crying that you personally may be affected by it and misconstruing how the tech actually works won't change that. It will just keep you ignorant while the tech continues to exist.

Celebrating any clamp down on the basis of feels cuz you don't like something, on the other hand, without a single thought for the greater ramifications that this clap down will inevitability have is a fucking shortsighted disaster. You're not thinking of the consequences that this proposed ban could have down the line or the fact that there's NO way that this could adequately be enforced. You're just crying like a bitch that this tech could hurt you personally (and I'm me too, by the way, since I'm also a "creative") and saying "Fuck it all! ANY clap down must be good as long as there's SOME type of clap down. WAH!"

But NONE of this addresses the questions: HOW will they even be able to determine what's AI generated or not? How will they distinguish between pure AI and human-modified work? What percentage of content can be based on AI vs human modified? How will they be able to determine what percentage is AI vs human in any given work? Who will actually be affected? How will any of this fucking thing work?

Cuz even if all you dumb fucks are right (you're not, but just for the sake of argument) the fact still remains that there are serious questions about the implementation and feasibility of this proposed ban--or even if it will actually solve ANYTHING.

DTRPG & Many Other Companies Everywhere: "AI art will now be banned"

Well whoopie fucking do! HOW will any of this even work?

Quote
"The following policy applies to DriveThru Marketplaces:

- Any products that utilize AI-generated artwork must be tagged as such.

0) How the fck are they going to know?
1) How the fck are they going to enforce?
2) Who the fck cares if the pics of space ships in some game book are computer generated?
3) Who beat the execs over at DriveThru with a stupid stick?

Quote from: rytrasmi on August 01, 2023, 01:52:43 PM
They're trying to keep out AI drivel created by idiots who want to make a fast buck. As someone who would never play or run AI written material, I support this stance. Some things are just better without computers. That's a hill I will die on.

That is a stupid statement.  If you would never play it (for whatever weird reason) then what do you care if they sell it to other people?  No one would force you to buy and play it.  Are you on drugs?

Authenticating art is easy. Artists can screen capture their whole drawing process to prove they're real artists and not prompt monkeys. A real artist can easily prove their past work is real by redrawing it on video. Or at least redrawing enough to prove that, yes, they can actually draw and aren't prompt monkeys.

It will take longer for AI to be able create fake videos of making a drawing from scratch, so we have a few years in which this method is valid. Honestly, by the time AI can fake the entire creative process, we'll probably have even worse problems than the plague of AI generated "art".

Quote from: Baron on August 01, 2023, 05:34:26 PM
My thoughts? I'm a creative, it's how I make my living. Computer programs that crunch an artist's ideas without their permission, and then produce content that can make money and not pay the original artist anything? I vote No. Shrugging and saying "the cat's out of the bag" is the opposite of helpful. If people would instead vote with their wallets, about everything odious, we might have a better world.

LMAO!  Did you know that a HUMAN can crunch an artist's ideas without their permission, (using a myriad of graphics pgms) and then produce content that can make money and not pay the original artist anything? 

The crap produced by programs (there is NO A.I.) is just that, crap.  If it is better than what you can make you are in the wrong job.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 06:02:44 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on August 01, 2023, 05:39:01 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 04:42:12 PM
It saddens me to see how many are so quick to embrace this without stoping to think a little bit as to the end result, let me elaborate:

You, John Doe won't be able to use free art that looks kinda decent, you'll be forced to use the same public domain art everybody else is using, pony up money for shitty art (since you don't have the money) or don't use ANY art at all. Thus making your product less visually appealing than the big boys who can pay for good art.

You, John Doe will be under the sword of Damocles of your shit being reported as AI written by any asshole and we know how DTTRPG handles those things, your shit gets taken down until they investigate or you can prove a negative, but the big boys won't be ever under such a threat because who would believe you if you said WotKKK used AI to write their next bullshit setting?

And the big boys have the money to install and run their own AI and train it with their own old shit so they could perfectly use AI and no one would know.

So, in the end this is just another example of a regulation "to protect the consumer" being really a regulation to protect the big boys.

It's a big club and you're not in it.

I'm under no illusion that any of the AI hatting people will change their tune, "it's gonna flood DTTRPG with badly written drivel!" Dude, have you been to DTTRPG latelly? It is already flooded with shit! By design if you ask me, it makes it harder for the small player to be found while not affecting the big boys in the very least.

Yup there's tons of crap out there already. With AI there will be a lot more crap that looks pretty and sounds well written but is still essentially crap.

You're saying there are brilliant designers who can't catch a break because art and editing are too expensive? Instead of dooming about AI bans, tell us who these people are so we can buy their games.

No, I'm saying this will be used to protect the big boys from competition, as all regulations are.

I have no doubt about that - WotC and Disney will be using AI art and writing in no time, regardless of any hurdles are put in place to small competitors.

In theory, at least, AI could help the little guy in the style of MJ, i.e., "free to use until one million dollars", or something.

OTOH, the societal repercussions will be huge and I d'pont think we are nowhere ready.

(With that said, I'm not "pro" or "anti" AI; for me it is a tool that can be used for good or unimaginable evil).

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 01, 2023, 07:40:40 PM
Authenticating art is easy. Artists can screen capture their whole drawing process to prove they're real artists and not prompt monkeys. A real artist can easily prove their past work is real by redrawing it on video. Or at least redrawing enough to prove that, yes, they can actually draw and aren't prompt monkeys.

It will take longer for AI to be able create fake videos of making a drawing from scratch, so we have a few years in which this method is valid. Honestly, by the time AI can fake the entire creative process, we'll probably have even worse problems than the plague of AI generated "art".

That's going to make buying art from people Sooooooooooooooo much cheaper....

Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 01, 2023, 07:57:34 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 06:02:44 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on August 01, 2023, 05:39:01 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2023, 04:42:12 PM
It saddens me to see how many are so quick to embrace this without stoping to think a little bit as to the end result, let me elaborate:

You, John Doe won't be able to use free art that looks kinda decent, you'll be forced to use the same public domain art everybody else is using, pony up money for shitty art (since you don't have the money) or don't use ANY art at all. Thus making your product less visually appealing than the big boys who can pay for good art.

You, John Doe will be under the sword of Damocles of your shit being reported as AI written by any asshole and we know how DTTRPG handles those things, your shit gets taken down until they investigate or you can prove a negative, but the big boys won't be ever under such a threat because who would believe you if you said WotKKK used AI to write their next bullshit setting?

And the big boys have the money to install and run their own AI and train it with their own old shit so they could perfectly use AI and no one would know.

So, in the end this is just another example of a regulation "to protect the consumer" being really a regulation to protect the big boys.

It's a big club and you're not in it.

I'm under no illusion that any of the AI hatting people will change their tune, "it's gonna flood DTTRPG with badly written drivel!" Dude, have you been to DTTRPG latelly? It is already flooded with shit! By design if you ask me, it makes it harder for the small player to be found while not affecting the big boys in the very least.

Yup there's tons of crap out there already. With AI there will be a lot more crap that looks pretty and sounds well written but is still essentially crap.

You're saying there are brilliant designers who can't catch a break because art and editing are too expensive? Instead of dooming about AI bans, tell us who these people are so we can buy their games.

No, I'm saying this will be used to protect the big boys from competition, as all regulations are.

I have no doubt about that - WotC and Disney will be using AI art and writing in no time, regardless of any hurdles are put in place to small competitors.

In theory, at least, AI could help the little guy in the style of MJ, i.e., "free to use until one million dollars", or something.

OTOH, the societal repercussions will be huge and I d'pont think we are nowhere ready.

(With that said, I'm not "pro" or "anti" AI; for me it is a tool that can be used for good or unimaginable evil).

THANK YOU!

Yes, the big boys will use whatever tool they want and all these regulations will do is ensure the small guy can't.

Netflix, Disney AND WotC (maybe others too) are right now hiring people to develop their inhouse AI, but heaven's forbide the common guy gets to use a similar tool!

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 01, 2023, 07:40:40 PM
Authenticating art is easy. Artists can screen capture their whole drawing process to prove they're real artists and not prompt monkeys. A real artist can easily prove their past work is real by redrawing it on video. Or at least redrawing enough to prove that, yes, they can actually draw and aren't prompt monkeys.

It will take longer for AI to be able create fake videos of making a drawing from scratch, so we have a few years in which this method is valid. Honestly, by the time AI can fake the entire creative process, we'll probably have even worse problems than the plague of AI generated "art".

None of this is actually easy or reasonable. The idea that artists now have to keep record of their ENTIRE creative process just to shield themselves from accusations whose burden of proof is supposed to be on the accuser is absurd. And redrawing a thing proves nothing. You could potentially draw something someone else drew if you're good enough. And this doesn't take into account that you could use photoshop and other graphic design tools as part of your process, or that you can use your own art and run it through an AI art generator to try out different styles or coloration, and customize it back and forward till you get what you're looking for. Then maybe modify it again later.

Plus again, burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused to prove that they're not guilty. And ALL of this turns the burden of proof on the accused.