Quote from: jhkim on February 22, 2023, 05:39:45 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2023, 04:43:57 PM
But if I chose to open a gaming storefront that included more than my own products (call it "Superversive RPGs" for the sake of argument) and Superversive RPGs had a policy of only selling products considered family-friendly because that aligns with my beliefs, according to you I'm being censorious and must put up any NSFW products submitted or I am violating their freedom of speech... never mind that being forced to do so violates MY speech; my choice to not associate with those products. I don't want my products associated even by proximity with that shit.

You demand companies put up products on their storefronts (which costs them money for bandwidth and server space) that they disagree with... that is the opposite of free speech. Requiring businesses to spend money supporting and distributing material they don't believe in is compulsory speech.

I think there's a point to compulsory distribution in some cases, but not at the level of a store. I support Net Neutrality for ISPs, where they can't choose to downgrade or block packets depending on where they come from. But I don't think stores should be required to sell all items regardless of their wishes.

Overall, I try to keep all this in perspective. It has never been the case that one could arbitrarily get one's book of arbitrary material published by mainstream stores. Even before the Satanic Panic of the 1980s, I highly doubt the Men RPG would have gotten distribution in any game stores if it were published in the 1970s. For example, the Alma Mater RPG was published in 1982 and banned from Gen Con and many other outlets. Go back to earlier decades, and distribution would overall be equally censorious. I'm not saying that is right -- but it is relevant to how much outrage I have about it happening now.

Meanwhile an equally offensive (to other people) game TSL is allowed to be sold.

It's not about ANYONE's morals or principles but about pushing leftard bullshit while punishing anyone that hurts woketard fee-fees.

DTTRPG isn't your LFGS, it's a defacto monopoly, if you're not selling there you don't exist unless you're the giant 500 lbs gorilla.

Thus your example is just a false equivalence.

You're carrying water for the megacorp because you agree politically with them, if some right wing billionaire bought it and started banning all the leftist games you'd be singing a different song.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 05:54:11 PM
But you keep on carrying water for the leftard run megacorporation.

From what I can tell, OneBookShelf has 24 employees, with a revenue of $5 million. That's much bigger than a mom and pop store, but it's also far from a megacorporation.

Source: https://www.konaequity.com/company/onebookshelf-inc-4397967097/

For comparison, a big game store chain like The Compleat Strategist has revenue of $3.3 million and 12 employees.

Source: https://www.datanyze.com/companies/the-compleat-strategist/13796767


Again - I would like DTRPG to be more open about the games they carry, and I'll give them such feedback. But no, I don't think they should be forced to sell any games they are given regardless of content.

The free speech Political Science 101 conversation is a distraction. It is also the same arguments I have heard all my life. You are not breaking any new ground or changing minds with it.

OBS has a policy they have openly shared. That policy states they can censor. They can suspend first, ask questions later. I have ethical issues with the way they conduct business.

Because I do not support their behavior, I do not give money to OBS. I could explain this to a seven year-old and they would get it. It is that simple.

Now for Red Room and the censorship claim... It sounds like Red Room was using OBS as part of their marketing. OBS does not need to put up with that. I'm good with OBS pulling their products in light of this. They can be right about Red Room and still be wrong about their other business practices.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 05:54:11 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2023, 04:43:57 PM

But if I chose to open a gaming storefront that included more than my own products (call it "Superversive RPGs" for the sake of argument) and Superversive RPGs had a policy of only selling products considered family-friendly because that aligns with my beliefs, according to you I'm being censorious and must put up any NSFW products submitted or I am violating their freedom of speech... never mind that being forced to do so violates MY speech; my choice to not associate with those products. I don't want my products associated even by proximity with that shit.

Where's the rule on DTTRPG that says stuff like Men or TSL isn't allowed on the site?

If there is aren't they censoring one while allowing the other?

Is your storefront a de-facto monopoly?

If yes then I do think you should allow anything that's not against US law.

But you keep on carrying water for the leftard run megacorporation.

I believe the rule was "no hostile marketing." Red Room definitely violated it.

Also, if DriveThruRPG were a monopoly I wouldn't actually be able to open my own storefront and promote that site on social media like Gab or Rumble (or Twitter while the current ownership holds anyway).

If they were a monopoly I couldn't buy the same PDFs off a publisher's direct site instead of DriveThru (something I always try to do so the publisher gets more off the sale).

If they were a monopoly they could keep me from selling it on Amazon or with a Christian books retailer (I seriously was encouraged by a non-gamer to go that after explaining my setting as they immediately associated it with Tolkein and Narnia) or giving copies to my friendly local game shop for their shelves (payment on sale).

You overestimate the degree of monopoly power DriveThruRPG actually holds (vs. the level of convenience it offers relative to alternatives). It's NOT a Google or Twitter or YouTube (and alternatives that don't suck are gaining ground on them too. Rumble is doing TV ads now encouraging content creators to switch away from YouTube). Its certainly no Amazon.

And while I will agree the slippery slope argument is always valid with Leftists, the fact that I see RPG Pundit and ACKS both readily available on DriveThruRPG tells me the level of censorship there isn't nearly to the degree you're making it out to be.

Are they left-leaning? Yes. But if "Men" and Red Room is the hill you want to die on, I won't be joining you. Should something be done about TSL? Has anyone here actually filed any complaints over, say, the content about forcibly converting people into lesbians or are you just bitching about it here?

"Force your enemies to live up to their own standards." If it's the war you say it is then Queensbury Rules just gets your ass kicked. Forcing them to review and justify clearing leftist products that would be banned if they leaned the other way opens up new avenues of ridicule... the greatest weapon against an ideology barring actual violence.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2023, 07:53:39 PM

Also, if DriveThruRPG were a monopoly I wouldn't actually be able to open my own storefront and promote that site on social media like Gab or Rumble (or Twitter while the current ownership holds anyway).

If they were a monopoly I couldn't buy the same PDFs off a publisher's direct site instead of DriveThru (something I always try to do so the publisher gets more off the sale).

If they were a monopoly they could keep me from selling it on Amazon or with a Christian books retailer (I seriously was encouraged by a non-gamer to go that after explaining my setting as they immediately associated it with Tolkein and Narnia) or giving copies to my friendly local game shop for their shelves (payment on sale).

You overestimate the degree of monopoly power DriveThruRPG actually holds (vs. the level of convenience it offers relative to alternatives). It's NOT a Google or Twitter or YouTube (and alternatives that don't suck are gaining ground on them too. Rumble is doing TV ads now encouraging content creators to switch away from YouTube). Its certainly no Amazon.

I think you may be misunderstanding the practical definition of a monopoly.

In the home computer OS space, Windows is effectively one (maybe duopoly with Apple/MacOS). Linux is a distant third.

Microsoft got whacked like a pinata in court (USA and EU, maybe others) over Internet Explorer- it didn't have 100% market share, but it did have close to that outside of the UNIX/Linux types.

OBS is essentially IE- there are competitors but their market share is two orders of magnitude lower and only the cranks know of said competitors. They also, via their market share, fiscally penalize folks that don't go all in (just like Microsoft did).

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2023, 07:53:39 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 05:54:11 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2023, 04:43:57 PM

But if I chose to open a gaming storefront that included more than my own products (call it "Superversive RPGs" for the sake of argument) and Superversive RPGs had a policy of only selling products considered family-friendly because that aligns with my beliefs, according to you I'm being censorious and must put up any NSFW products submitted or I am violating their freedom of speech... never mind that being forced to do so violates MY speech; my choice to not associate with those products. I don't want my products associated even by proximity with that shit.

Where's the rule on DTTRPG that says stuff like Men or TSL isn't allowed on the site?

If there is aren't they censoring one while allowing the other?

Is your storefront a de-facto monopoly?

If yes then I do think you should allow anything that's not against US law.

But you keep on carrying water for the leftard run megacorporation.

I believe the rule was "no hostile marketing." Red Room definitely violated it.

Also, if DriveThruRPG were a monopoly I wouldn't actually be able to open my own storefront and promote that site on social media like Gab or Rumble (or Twitter while the current ownership holds anyway).

If they were a monopoly I couldn't buy the same PDFs off a publisher's direct site instead of DriveThru (something I always try to do so the publisher gets more off the sale).

If they were a monopoly they could keep me from selling it on Amazon or with a Christian books retailer (I seriously was encouraged by a non-gamer to go that after explaining my setting as they immediately associated it with Tolkein and Narnia) or giving copies to my friendly local game shop for their shelves (payment on sale).

You overestimate the degree of monopoly power DriveThruRPG actually holds (vs. the level of convenience it offers relative to alternatives). It's NOT a Google or Twitter or YouTube (and alternatives that don't suck are gaining ground on them too. Rumble is doing TV ads now encouraging content creators to switch away from YouTube). Its certainly no Amazon.

And while I will agree the slippery slope argument is always valid with Leftists, the fact that I see RPG Pundit and ACKS both readily available on DriveThruRPG tells me the level of censorship there isn't nearly to the degree you're making it out to be.

Are they left-leaning? Yes. But if "Men" and Red Room is the hill you want to die on, I won't be joining you. Should something be done about TSL? Has anyone here actually filed any complaints over, say, the content about forcibly converting people into lesbians or are you just bitching about it here?

"Force your enemies to live up to their own standards." If it's the war you say it is then Queensbury Rules just gets your ass kicked. Forcing them to review and justify clearing leftist products that would be banned if they leaned the other way opens up new avenues of ridicule... the greatest weapon against an ideology barring actual violence.

I said de-facto monopoly, which like Howard explained they are.

Glad to know you're not really for free speech.

Filing complaints about TSL? What am I? A censorious cunt?

The best weapon would be for creators and consumers to grow a pair and boycott OBS, which I have said multiple times won't happen due to cowardice on one camp and "muh convenience" on the other. Which of course means we'll get what we fucking deserve.

Just as a follow-up for those who don't know, it turns out DTRPG didn't opt for a ban due to hostile marketing. They started an investigation into that (and almost certainly would have issued a ban for it if there had been no other issues), but the reason they gave Red Room for the ban was because insulting or attacking posts had been made to social media. All of TRR's direct interactions with DTRPG were civil and polite--DTRPG even admitted as such in an email with the guy who runs TRR--but DTRPG didn't like the posts that were made about them on other sites.

I can understand why TRR was banned because their behavior was over the top, but that does nothing to assuage my worries that DTRPG will only grow more ban-happy as the years progress. It may not seem too bad now, but then I expect most users of rpg.net in the early 2000s had no idea what the site would be like in 10-15 years. Here's hoping DTRPG doesn't follow the same path.

I commented about this on Youtube, so I guess I'll comment about it here too. I have a problem with OBS essentially putting a gag order on publishers. As I said on Youtube, half of what you read on the net is people complaining about how this or that company has pissed them off. Drivethru does dominate the market. So if they can purge a publisher from their site because said publisher posts an account of actions that Drivethru is taking / has taken against them, or describing their concern that Drivethru will punish them, then I think anti-monopoly actions should be taken against Drivethru. That's a gag order, and I don't care if they put it into their Terms and Conditions that all publishers have to accept in order to deal with their monopoly. I don't think that any contract should be viable if it requires you to sign away your rights, and it infuriates me that it's become commonplace. If you want to get all worked up about something, then IMO that's it. Not how many lesbians equal dickless women counting as inventory. Just my opinion, but a point that I think should be made.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 09:25:16 PM
I said de-facto monopoly, which like Howard explained they are.

Glad to know you're not really for free speech.

Filing complaints about TSL? What am I? A censorious cunt?

No, you're just another self-righteous loser... putting your self-perceived virtue over getting the damned job done and then saying "oh, we'll get them next time" after each loss you take. Sometimes the only way to get bad people to stop is to actually punch back in a way they understand.

So if want you to win, you need to throw sand in the damn gears every chance you get. The Allies didn't win by facing the Axis on the field of the Axis' choosing each day. They bombed the hell out of their infrastructure.

Use their own rules against them. If you want OBS to change its policies then you need to make those policies too "costly" to enforce by burying them in complaints about all the lefty products. If they're really the one-side censorious cunts you believe them to be the difference in outcomes will become more and more apparent to the normal folks visiting the site.

And understand that your views of free speech are exreme so you're never going to get people (creators or consumers) to boycott OBS if you have nothing to offer them.

Most people aren't absolutist fanatics like you. They understand that censorship in and of itself is neither good nor bad, but a tool.

Banning porn and other obscenities from public spaces (including the front pages of big retailers like OBS) where their kids could be exposed to it is both censorship and a good thing.

Banning teachers from talking about the joys of transgenderism and sex with seven year olds is both censorship and a good thing.

Banning the right to yell "Fire" in a crowded theatre is also both censorship and a good thing.

Pundit throwing Nazi apologists out the door of his forum is both censorship and a good thing.

I certainly self-censor when some of my family and friends ask how they look and, believe me, that's a good thing.

Presently, the level of censorship OBS is conducting isn't anywhere near the level where normal people who believe in the above are going to abandon the convenience OBS offers and certainly not over banning trash like "Men" or books with Nazi symbols on their covers or mask-wearing nudes there purely for the titillation factor as the image had nothing to do with the adventure's content.

So if you want normal people to join your crusade you first need to answer the question "what's in it for them?"

That's the question success stories in the competition against other pseudo-monopolies answered when they did it. You wanna get people to abandon YouTube? First, build a streaming platform that can deliver performance in the ballpark of YouTube. Then offer content creators better terms than YouTube so they start making content for you. Then you start to get more viewers coming over for the content and now Rumble can afford primetime TV ads encouraging people to make the switch from YouTube. Are they as big yet? No, but they're growing and it's the comparable performance and better offers for content creators that are the primary needle movers... their freer speech policies are just a bonus.

Ideology; particularly extremist ideology; isn't worth a wet fart without something real to back it up. The American Revolution wasn't won with ideology alone... it was won with weapons and men and tactical/strategic plans... and it didn't follow the established orders of 18th century battle to win... it crossed the freakin' Delaware in the middle of the night to ambush the enemy on Christmas with their pants down (they also used riflemen in trees to target enemy commanders... a strict no-no by the warfare rules of the day).

And if the other side has declared being a censorious cunt to be a valid tactic of war, and you aren't using it against them to make them hurt (make them play by their own rules) and if you can't offer a platform that appeals to the wide middle then enjoy continuing to lose.

But at least your self-righteousness will keep you warm.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 21, 2023, 04:49:56 PM
You, Pundit, and everyone else taking this position are the sort that goes: "I'm for free speech but".

They had free speech, and their work was not censored. But instead of waiting until #DriveThru finished the evaluation (which is a reasonable policy) they chose to shit the bed and maliciously slander the company for clicks. So we'll never even know if "men" would have been censored, and this is one of the few situations where the consequences were entirely justified.

And free speech aside, I can say with absolute confidence you do not want to get into a business relationship with people like this. They're no different than any other fanatical ideologue who will make you and your business a target the minute it furthers their agenda. Mutual success is not part of the plan.

Quote from: Bruwulf on February 21, 2023, 05:59:19 PM
I'm sorry to say, right now BGE offers less than those early fledgling companies did twenty years ago

Politics is always less important than popularity, and I'm willing to bet more folks are playing Hogwart's Legacy despite J.K.R.s politics than those not playing because of it. And in previous discussions I mentioned that a company is destined for obscurity without at least one functional feature over competitors, of which this one has none.

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 21, 2023, 07:02:57 PM

Quote from: S'mon on February 21, 2023, 06:57:56 PM

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 21, 2023, 06:55:37 PM

Quote from: S'mon on February 21, 2023, 06:00:00 PM
Talking of, been getting back into minis painting. Love these printed resin minis. 

That picture is kinda NSFW. Does this forum have a spoiler tag?

I can't see one. I've replaced pic w link.   

I'm sorry if I came across as rude. It's definitely a very nice mini, it's just that the missus kind of gave me the stinkeye... 

Oh the irony.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2023, 11:13:39 AM
Freedom of Speech does not means freedom from the consequences of your speech. You have a right to say whatever you want and, at least under the rule of law in America you have legal protections against being physically assaulted by others because of your speech.

Yet notice how many ideologues consider assault to be one of the acceptable consequences.

Quote from: jhkim on February 22, 2023, 06:29:34 PM
From what I can tell, OneBookShelf has 24 employees, with a revenue of $5 million. That's much bigger than a mom and pop store, but it's also far from a megacorporation.

Source: https://www.konaequity.com/company/onebookshelf-inc-4397967097/

For comparison, a big game store chain like The Compleat Strategist has revenue of $3.3 million and 12 employees.

Source: https://www.datanyze.com/companies/the-compleat-strategist/13796767

#OneBookShelf is undeniably the defacto monopoly in the digital RPG distribution space. If your RPG products aren't on there they might as well not exist. However their income as a consequence shows just how small this market actually is, and subsequently how hard it will be to get a slice of the pie.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on February 23, 2023, 06:13:49 PM

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 21, 2023, 07:02:57 PM

Quote from: S'mon on February 21, 2023, 06:57:56 PM

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 21, 2023, 06:55:37 PM

Quote from: S'mon on February 21, 2023, 06:00:00 PM
Talking of, been getting back into minis painting. Love these printed resin minis. 

That picture is kinda NSFW. Does this forum have a spoiler tag?

I can't see one. I've replaced pic w link.   

I'm sorry if I came across as rude. It's definitely a very nice mini, it's just that the missus kind of gave me the stinkeye... 

Oh the irony.

It is a bit ironic, I agree, but I think S'mon came up with a very good solution, didn't he? There's no need to criticise anyone and the image is still visible by whoever wants to see it, just click on the link   

Greetings!

In my own miniature collection, besides hundreds of normal miniatures such as heroes, adventures, humanoids, animals and monsters, I also have a grip of typically scantily-clad heroines or other near-naked strumpet characters. Most of them look pretty damned awesome, too!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on February 23, 2023, 06:13:49 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 22, 2023, 06:29:34 PM
From what I can tell, OneBookShelf has 24 employees, with a revenue of $5 million. That's much bigger than a mom and pop store, but it's also far from a megacorporation.

Source: https://www.konaequity.com/company/onebookshelf-inc-4397967097/

For comparison, a big game store chain like The Compleat Strategist has revenue of $3.3 million and 12 employees.

Source: https://www.datanyze.com/companies/the-compleat-strategist/13796767

#OneBookShelf is undeniably the defacto monopoly in the digital RPG distribution space. If your RPG products aren't on there they might as well not exist. However their income as a consequence shows just how small this market actually is, and subsequently how hard it will be to get a slice of the pie.

Agreed. That's my understanding. They're a monopoly in the narrow space, but they're not a megacorporation.

Interestingly, it seems they have about as much income and employees as a creator like Pinnacle Entertainment Group, which also has about $5M yearly income and around 25 employees.

https://www.konaequity.com/company/pinnacle-entertainment-group-inc-4397994889/

Quote from: SHARK on February 23, 2023, 07:09:37 PM
Greetings!

In my own miniature collection, besides hundreds of normal miniatures such as heroes, adventures, humanoids, animals and monsters, I also have a grip of typically scantily-clad heroines or other near-naked strumpet characters. Most of them look pretty damned awesome, too!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Just been painting a brand new 'Greek village girl' I received yesterday I expect you'd like SHARK, and a 1985 slottabase Chaos Warrior it took nearly 40 years  to paint. Pics at http://simonyrpgs.blogspot.com/2023/02/recent-painting-efforts.html

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 23, 2023, 08:36:49 AM
So if want you to win, you need to throw sand in the damn gears every chance you get. The Allies didn't win by facing the Axis on the field of the Axis' choosing each day. They bombed the hell out of their infrastructure.

Use their own rules against them. If you want OBS to change its policies then you need to make those policies too "costly" to enforce by burying them in complaints about all the lefty products. If they're really the one-side censorious cunts you believe them to be the difference in outcomes will become more and more apparent to the normal folks visiting the site.

I tried that.  One game promoted REAL LIFE VIOLENCE, and cited at least one terrorist group of the past as inspiration, and suggested that people be active like them.  I provided sources/  They ignored me because he's a platinum seller (which = $$$ for them), plus the seller's politics align with OBS's left bias.