Quote from: ClusterFluster on February 19, 2023, 10:29:25 AM
Out of all this, best case scenario:

• 
  [BGE/whomever] opens annual crowdfunding to expand market reach and improve services?
  
• 
  Hold a prize raffle with tickets granted per $100+ donation?
  
• 
  Review top 10ish products of the past year over stream events?
  
• 
  Host 5ish one shot demos of top five adventures over stream events?
  
• 
  Partnerships with [Nerdrotic/whomever] to reveal/preview upcoming works?
  

They might outdo us on all of that, but it feels like not much is done on our end but cope.

Also, send some BGE exclusives to bloggers that do reviews. They are rare, but they are out there. (Not sure if BGE has an affiliate program either)

^^ If they don't already...

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 10:38:19 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:49:51 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 11:57:44 AM
Well after five days of reviewing my little adventure about fighting strange occult bad guys during WW II, I got an answer from the assholes at DTRPG (I paraphrase):

Everything is cool with the adventure, although they suggested I change the cover which had a graphic image of the Black Sun (from the 19th Century not related to Nazis)

The Black Sun symbol certainly IS related to Nazis. Just because it predates Nazism as a movement doesn't mean anything. I'm not saying that the image shouldn't be used in a game or even on the cover of a game, it depends on the context. But claiming it's got nothing to do with Nazis is bullshit.

Never claimed that. The adventure is set in WW II with the SAS and French Resistance fighting a bunch of occult assholes. I said my initial image was from the 19th Century... before the Nazis existed. I did not claim the symbol of the Black Sun was not a nazi symbol.

In the part you quoted, you are literally saying "19th century not related to the nazis".

Quote from: JimLotFP on February 19, 2023, 12:06:12 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:45:45 PMAgain, you can argue about how the policy could be abused or taken too far so that any criticism of DTRPG is cause for suspension, and you can argue that the general policy of suspending products is unfair because DTRPG allows all sorts of atrocious content from the left but suspends products for atrocious content from the right.

But you can't actually deny that the Red Room knew exactly what the fuck it was doing here, and was doing exactly what DTRPG had made the hostile marketing policy, and which I will now admit I was wrong to previously wave off as a fictitious boogeyman.

If somebody says about their product "well this product won't last long on DTRPG" ... well... if they're right, they're right, and why is it a problem to say so? If DriveThru believe in their standards then they should have full confidence that "banned from DTRPG!" marketing reflects badly on the product/publisher, and positively on DTRPG.

Their hostile marketing policy also gives publishers who think DriveThru's standards for banning are not great less options in bringing attention to those standards, pushing back against them, and trying to get public support on the matter.

For example, I've been doing my silly shit since long before I was aware of DriveThru bannings being a thing. I have to field questions about why certain things aren't on there. And based on my own things that aren't allowed there, I know ahead of time certain projects aren't at all likely to be allowed on there. Should I have to take on DriveThru's standards in deciding what I publish? And if my standards for a project are different than DriveThru's, shouldn't I be allowed to acknowledge that in public, and in fact use that information and letting people know "hey, this is one of those things?"

I'm sure they'd prefer nobody ever create anything that generates complaints, and especially that nobody would complain, but that's not the world we live in either way. Some things just aren't for everybody, and indeed very much not for certain people.

And since I very much suspect that their standards for banning are more based on just not wanting the headache of complaints that certain things bring and less on internal convictions, their hostile marketing policy gives all the power to those people who want stricter standards.

"This thing is bad and should be punished by being removed! Hey everyone, let's let DriveThruRPG know!" - listened to and possibly acted upon

"The removal of this thing is bad and the people who wanted it removed are wrong!" - shut your mouth, outlaw

The hostile marketing rule is bad not because "hostile marketing" doesn't exist, but because it pretty much requires one to publicly accept DriveThru as the just and fair final arbiter of what is or is not acceptable.

The problem with the "hostile marketing" policy is that while their description of what constitutes "hostile marketing" is relatively clear (unlike some site's definitions of something like "offensive speech", for example, being kept intentionally vague so you can't know what not to do), the application of the suspension of products is not balanced or fair; it clearly favors one ideology over another, both because one side is more likely to attempt to get a book suspended than the other, and because the people doing the review are more likely to find 'problems' with one ideological side than the other. So that's how you get what appears to be 'edgy' content from one side of the ideological spectrum getting suspended while equally 'edgy' stuff from the other side is left unmolested.

Obviously, I would prefer a world where DTRPG applied free speech equally, with only the bare minimum standard of "legality" being a cause for suspension, I recognize that as a private company they would also have the right to have a policy that had much heavier restrictions, but those restrictions would need to be clear and comprehensible and be evenly applied by a process that does not favor ideological saboteurs.

Quote from: Zalman on February 19, 2023, 08:36:18 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:45:45 PM
Look, you can argue about how there's a double standard of content policing with DTRPG, where a game like Men is banned, but Thirsty Sword Lesbians (which features the sword lesbians purging a restaurant of heterosexuals) is allowed to stay on and become a bestseller.

But there is NO question in my mind that this game "Men" was written not as an RPG but as a POLITICAL MESSAGE. And that it's intent was to be offensive.

Wait, are you suggesting that the intent of Thirsty Sword Lesbians is otherwise?

No, I'm suggesting that BOTH are a politicization of gaming, and products whose appeal will largely be to buy them to show virtue with your own 'tribe' and to "own" the other side, and therefore I think that both are stupid and contrary to what I want the hobby to be about. I don't want a hobby full of conservative propagandism any more than I want one full of leftist propagandism. I want a hobby that is about the games.

I'm also saying that one of these two products was suspended, while the other was allowed, and that I recognize that this is a serious problem in their moderation policies, but that this is a SEPARATE issue from what I'm arguing.

X

Well, I guess the first question to ask is "which is more viable, trying to get OBS to be more fair, or build enough interest in something like Big Geek Emporium to make it a viable competitor?"

I'll be honest. I don't see Big Geek Emporium as a viable alternative; the name isn't nearly as marketable*, there was literally nothing in its content I (or anyone I know) would have any interest in because it was basically all stuff "too edgy for DriveThruRPG"**, and while they're working on it, the last time I looked the interface was still horrible.***

Maybe it can become more viable, but just like the Christian media genre regularly proves, ideological passion alone won't keep you in business. It's why the Woke always suborn already successful companies rather than building their own.

My suggestion is that until such a viable competitor emerges is that the non-Woke stop playing by the Queensbury Rules and force the Woke to live by their own rules. Drop complaints on their offensive products (ex. TSL's module with forced conversion of a straight woman into a lesbian). Make DriveThruRPG have to wade through a sea of complaints that XYZ is offensive because we complain as much or more than the Woke. Throw sand in the gears.

Hasbro didn't cave until the pushback on the OGL was hurting their bottom line. OBS won't adjust its policies until it affects theirs and part of that means the non-Woke need to stop being polite and going off to rebuild elsewhere.

* "DriveThru" implies in-and-out quick service for buying RPGs. There's no value judgment in the name about its clientele. "Big Geek" implies the only people interested in the products are Geeks, which even if much of the social stigma to the term is gone is still not something most people prefer to think of themselves as. The name alone subconsciously encourages potential customers to think "this isn't for me." Words have power and business names tell others both what they think of themselves and others... "RPG Emporium" or "Emporium of Games" or such would be much more effective.

** If you want to compete with DriveThruRPG you need to provide the staples. A shop that only sells exotic spices isn't really competing against a grocery because it isn't offering any of the staple foods people are interested in buying. They're just a specialty shop for people looking for products outside of the grocery's staples. An rpg store without at least some recognizable brands is just a specialty shop; not competition to DriveThruRPG.

*** Specifically, it's organized as just a random collection of products from a variety of lines that appears to be just sorted by most recent release. There's no "featured" or "top sellers" sections or default grouping by product line or anything to guide the average consumer towards a purchase. If you just show up at the site with no idea of what you're looking for it's just a random collection of covers (many of them on the ugly side) and the navigation is such that if you type in "scifi" on the search bar it returns one product... a superhero retroclone... while typing in "Fantasy" includes "Wretched Space - OSR Rules for Space Opera Games" on the first page of results.

The point being, if you can't find what you want without already knowing what you're looking for, few will stick around to actually look.

That's a lot of fair points. BGE is just a name I picked for example's sake on the grounds that there are virtually no serious competitors to DTRPG in the first place. I second that about the geekiness of the name, that's marketing poison if you don't want to be mixed up with leftists who basically own the word now (it even phonetically aligns). I've also noticed those problems with the BGE interface, and while I was hopeful because it offers some sort of respite from the Woke Dictate its clear that this will only attract edgelords over the long run. A dead end.

There'd have to be an entirely other site with pre-loaded clout that can gather a coalition of major anti-woke producers to provide the same service.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 20, 2023, 08:38:22 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 20, 2023, 07:41:32 AM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 10:38:19 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:49:51 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 11:57:44 AM
Well after five days of reviewing my little adventure about fighting strange occult bad guys during WW II, I got an answer from the assholes at DTRPG (I paraphrase):

Everything is cool with the adventure, although they suggested I change the cover which had a graphic image of the Black Sun (from the 19th Century not related to Nazis)

You are just cherry picking. For what reason is a mystery to me.

The Black Sun symbol certainly IS related to Nazis. Just because it predates Nazism as a movement doesn't mean anything. I'm not saying that the image shouldn't be used in a game or even on the cover of a game, it depends on the context. But claiming it's got nothing to do with Nazis is bullshit.

Never claimed that. The adventure is set in WW II with the SAS and French Resistance fighting a bunch of occult assholes. I said my initial image was from the 19th Century... before the Nazis existed. I did not claim the symbol of the Black Sun was not a nazi symbol.

In the part you quoted, you are literally saying "19th century not related to the nazis".

squire, I think he means to say that the Nazi's have so culturally hijacked those symbols for evil to the point where even Hindis/Jains/Buddhists will get wary looks from conservatives over henna paints in public. It no longer seems to matter what they used to represent in the past.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 20, 2023, 07:52:42 AM

Quote from: Zalman on February 19, 2023, 08:36:18 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:45:45 PM
Look, you can argue about how there's a double standard of content policing with DTRPG, where a game like Men is banned, but Thirsty Sword Lesbians (which features the sword lesbians purging a restaurant of heterosexuals) is allowed to stay on and become a bestseller.

But there is NO question in my mind that this game "Men" was written not as an RPG but as a POLITICAL MESSAGE. And that it's intent was to be offensive.

Wait, are you suggesting that the intent of Thirsty Sword Lesbians is otherwise?

No, I'm suggesting that BOTH are a politicization of gaming, and products whose appeal will largely be to buy them to show virtue with your own 'tribe' and to "own" the other side, and therefore I think that both are stupid and contrary to what I want the hobby to be about. I don't want a hobby full of conservative propagandism any more than I want one full of leftist propagandism. I want a hobby that is about the games.

I'm also saying that one of these two products was suspended, while the other was allowed, and that I recognize that this is a serious problem in their moderation policies, but that this is a SEPARATE issue from what I'm arguing.

I agree, both products are political. IMHO both should be allowed to exist.

I'm not worried about the hobby becoming only propaganda from either side or both even. Most people don't buy that stuff.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 20, 2023, 09:32:29 AM
Well, I guess the first question to ask is "which is more viable, trying to get OBS to be more fair, or build enough interest in something like Big Geek Emporium to make it a viable competitor?"

Re: Getting OBS to be more fair.- For this to happen you would need a lot of creators AND consumers boycotting them. Since creators are too worried about their income and consumers about their convenience this will not happen and we will get what we fucking deserve.

Re: BGE a viable competitor.- Since creators won't sell there because it might impact their bottom line and consumers won't buy there because it's not convenient this won't happen either, and we will get what we fucking deserve.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 20, 2023, 07:41:32 AM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 10:38:19 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:49:51 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 11:57:44 AM
Well after five days of reviewing my little adventure about fighting strange occult bad guys during WW II, I got an answer from the assholes at DTRPG (I paraphrase):

Everything is cool with the adventure, although they suggested I change the cover which had a graphic image of the Black Sun (from the 19th Century not related to Nazis)

The Black Sun symbol certainly IS related to Nazis. Just because it predates Nazism as a movement doesn't mean anything. I'm not saying that the image shouldn't be used in a game or even on the cover of a game, it depends on the context. But claiming it's got nothing to do with Nazis is bullshit.

Never claimed that. The adventure is set in WW II with the SAS and French Resistance fighting a bunch of occult assholes. I said my initial image was from the 19th Century... before the Nazis existed. I did not claim the symbol of the Black Sun was not a nazi symbol.

In the part you quoted, you are literally saying "19th century not related to the nazis".

From the context of my statement, do you really think I was implying in any way that the symbol of the Black Sun was NOT part of the Nazis? Or was I just saying that the original picture was from the 19th century (before there were Nazis) and therefore not a Nazi image? If you want to see it that way so be it. You are going to believe what you want. If you want to believe I am some sort of Jewish Nazi apologist... SMH.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 20, 2023, 12:04:09 PM

Re: BGE a viable competitor.- Since creators won't sell there because it might impact their bottom line and consumers won't buy there because it's not convenient this won't happen either, and we will get what we fucking deserve.

I get your point, and a lot of folks (frankly, the majority at least for the foreseeable future) will do as you say. Personally, the only reason for me to default to DTRPG is the "single source" convenience. I.e., if creator Bob sells stuff on multiple storefronts, I have to keep track of what I bought and where lest I double purchase things. If they sell it on DTRPG, that might be the easiest place for me to look. If Bob sells Naughty Concepts everywhere _but_ DTRPG, the problem resolves itself.

I actually ran into this problem with some non-RPG gaming content. A vendor sells their stuff through warehouse23 (where I think they get a bigger cut) and one of the OBS storefronts. This tripped me up as I couldn't figure out why I couldn't find something I knew I owned (I wanted a copy on my travel laptop).

You might, over time, be able to fix this by having a third website that allows you to see your content across DTRPG, w23, BGE, etc. There are obvious headaches with this though (you either have to hand your login details to the 3rd site to generate the master list or jump through hoops).

This is, as I think has been stated upthread, simply one instance of the whole parallel economy concept that the (mostly) right leaning folks are having to do to get around left wing dominance of large parts of our economy.

When DTRPG started out I am quite sure that all the same criticism was present. But I loved them! They had a great attitude, they were pro-gamer, and were incredibly helpful whether you were a buyer or a seller... even if their website was not state-of-the-art and cutting edge! Now they have become woke-wankers treating people unfairly and unjustly -- changing contract terms on the fly because... of reasons. I will not do any further business with them unless their business practices change. And even then not likely.

As for BGE they are making great efforts to restore some small level of fairness to the system. That is more important to me than whatever it is that drive sheep to follow the herd to DTRPG. Be part of the problem if you want. Have a nice day!

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 20, 2023, 12:26:07 PM
As for BGE they are making great efforts to restore some small level of fairness to the system. That is more important to me than whatever it is that drive sheep to follow the herd to DTRPG. Be part of the problem if you want.

Same here...The only way BGE can thrive is if we start making an effort to put material up there. As for DT I'm going to do my best to buy from BGE where possible or go directly to the publisher. I've backed a load of kickstarters so these will mostly be filled by DT. So I'm stuck with those.