TheRPGSite

I just got an email from DriveThruRPG telling me one of my games has been pulled because of... offensive material. It is set in WW II and involves the French Resistance and the British SAS fighting against some very weird occultists. Supposedly it offended a buyer who used it to shut me down! Hahahahaha! Fuck em.

The funny thing is that I was thinking of shutting it down along with just about everything else until my 6 month exclusivity period is over.

There is an alternate site created just for this reason.  Big geek emporium.  Randy and Joe made the site because DTRPG pulls things that are "offensive".  Or so they say, as they're our mommy and we're not adults. 

My thinking has always been, "You bought it. You delete it from your account.  But it stays up for everyone else because nobody made you the arbiter of taste.  Something you're clearly not qualified for as you bought something you could properly research."

https://biggeekemporium.com/ (https://biggeekemporium.com/)

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 14, 2023, 05:53:38 PM
There is an alternate site created just for this reason.  Big geek emporium.  Randy and Joe made the site because DTRPG pulls things that are "offensive".  Or so they say, as they're our mommy and we're not adults.  You bought.  You delete it from your account.  But it stays up for everyone else because nobody made you king. 

https://biggeekemporium.com/ (https://biggeekemporium.com/)

I have. I love them! I just discovered them a few weeks ago and have been posting stuff that is not on DTRPG (due to the damned exclusivity that I canceled last month but still has the balance of 6 months to go). Now I can post it there!

That's the thing about censorship. Once you start, it just gets easier and easier to ban stuff.

I am curious as to the reason. The SAS? I know the Irish don't like them. Referring to the French as "the French" (some news agency just said that was offensive)

Quote from: JeremyR on February 14, 2023, 07:38:44 PM
That's the thing about censorship. Once you start, it just gets easier and easier to ban stuff.

I am curious as to the reason. The SAS? I know the Irish don't like them. Referring to the French as "the French" (some news agency just said that was offensive)

Hahahahaha! I have no idea! They have not shared with me the details, and I suspect they will not do so in the future.

I'm sorry to hear that, Squirewaldo; while I myself am the kind of guy who doesn't appreciate certain racy themes (not that this particular game seems to be that), it's not Drivethru's place to make that decision for people.

At the very most, they could place the document on the "NSFW" class which requires buyers to tick a checkbox in their profile to see...

I made a promise to myself not give them another dollar after the last time they censored. Pricks.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 14, 2023, 05:55:56 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 14, 2023, 05:53:38 PM
There is an alternate site created just for this reason.  Big geek emporium.  Randy and Joe made the site because DTRPG pulls things that are "offensive".  Or so they say, as they're our mommy and we're not adults.  You bought.  You delete it from your account.  But it stays up for everyone else because nobody made you king. 

https://biggeekemporium.com/ (https://biggeekemporium.com/)

I have love them! I just discovered them a few weeks ago and have been posting stuff that is not on DTRPG (due to the damned exclusivity that I canceled last month but still has the balance of 6 months to go). Now I can post it there!

FYI, the exclusivity is for print items only; you can sell PDFs of stuff on BGE that you have up on DTRPG even before the exclusivity is up.

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 14, 2023, 08:22:57 PM
I'm sorry to hear that, Squirewaldo; while I myself am the kind of guy who doesn't appreciate certain racy themes (not that this particular game seems to be that), it's not Drivethru's place to make that decision for people.

At the very most, they could place the document on the "NSFW" class which requires buyers to tick a checkbox in their profile to see...

I can only speculate as to WHY there is a problem, but I know it is not because it is in any way racy. The only thing I can think about is that the game is about WW II, and it is about the Nazis and some other very strange occult sort of things that Nazis dabbled in. But I don't know. It might be because I used the wrong font size, or that I used an image that someone finds alarming????

Quote from: Mithgarthr on February 14, 2023, 08:54:35 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 14, 2023, 05:55:56 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 14, 2023, 05:53:38 PM
There is an alternate site created just for this reason.  Big geek emporium.  Randy and Joe made the site because DTRPG pulls things that are "offensive".  Or so they say, as they're our mommy and we're not adults.  You bought.  You delete it from your account.  But it stays up for everyone else because nobody made you king. 

https://biggeekemporium.com/ (https://biggeekemporium.com/)

I have love them! I just discovered them a few weeks ago and have been posting stuff that is not on DTRPG (due to the damned exclusivity that I canceled last month but still has the balance of 6 months to go). Now I can post it there!

FYI, the exclusivity is for print items only; you can sell PDFs of stuff on BGE that you have up on DTRPG even before the exclusivity is up.

From what I understand it is the other way around. They exclusivity on my PDFs, and print on demand is fine elsewhere.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 14, 2023, 09:40:35 PM

Quote from: Mithgarthr on February 14, 2023, 08:54:35 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 14, 2023, 05:55:56 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 14, 2023, 05:53:38 PM
There is an alternate site created just for this reason.  Big geek emporium.  Randy and Joe made the site because DTRPG pulls things that are "offensive".  Or so they say, as they're our mommy and we're not adults.  You bought.  You delete it from your account.  But it stays up for everyone else because nobody made you king. 

https://biggeekemporium.com/ (https://biggeekemporium.com/)

I have love them! I just discovered them a few weeks ago and have been posting stuff that is not on DTRPG (due to the damned exclusivity that I canceled last month but still has the balance of 6 months to go). Now I can post it there!

FYI, the exclusivity is for print items only; you can sell PDFs of stuff on BGE that you have up on DTRPG even before the exclusivity is up.

From what I understand it is the other way around. They exclusivity on my PDFs, and print on demand is fine elsewhere.

Yes, it's for sales of PDFs elsewhere. I posted a couple of titles on BGE and within a week or so got an email from OBS saying that I'd lost my exclusivity with them because of it. It's stupid really. It's not like I was advertising BGE on their site or anything. Still selling on both sites, but not happy at losing an extra 5% for trying to expand my sales reach...

I've always been an advocate for taking the higher road and sticking to one's principles, but this type of shit is maddening. It really makes me want to see these crybabies get a dose of their own medicine. An overdose even.

Quote from: Jamfke on February 14, 2023, 11:32:49 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 14, 2023, 09:40:35 PM

Quote from: Mithgarthr on February 14, 2023, 08:54:35 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 14, 2023, 05:55:56 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 14, 2023, 05:53:38 PM
There is an alternate site created just for this reason.  Big geek emporium.  Randy and Joe made the site because DTRPG pulls things that are "offensive".  Or so they say, as they're our mommy and we're not adults.  You bought.  You delete it from your account.  But it stays up for everyone else because nobody made you king. 

https://biggeekemporium.com/ (https://biggeekemporium.com/)

I have love them! I just discovered them a few weeks ago and have been posting stuff that is not on DTRPG (due to the damned exclusivity that I canceled last month but still has the balance of 6 months to go). Now I can post it there!

FYI, the exclusivity is for print items only; you can sell PDFs of stuff on BGE that you have up on DTRPG even before the exclusivity is up.

From what I understand it is the other way around. They exclusivity on my PDFs, and print on demand is fine elsewhere.

Yes, it's for sales of PDFs elsewhere. I posted a couple of titles on BGE and within a week or so got an email from OBS saying that I'd lost my exclusivity with them because of it. It's stupid really. It's not like I was advertising BGE on their site or anything. Still selling on both sites, but not happy at losing an extra 5% for trying to expand my sales reach...

You're both correct; I had it totally backwards. Derp. Just checked my email from six months ago when I hit them up to end it. That's wild though... I had it in my head it was print, so I uploaded PDFs to BGE and they've been there for a few months now. My exclusivity ends in two days on the 17th, and I'd been waiting to put up print versions until then because of that, haha.

Quote from: Mithgarthr on February 15, 2023, 07:11:03 AM

Quote from: Jamfke on February 14, 2023, 11:32:49 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 14, 2023, 09:40:35 PM

Quote from: Mithgarthr on February 14, 2023, 08:54:35 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 14, 2023, 05:55:56 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 14, 2023, 05:53:38 PM
There is an alternate site created just for this reason.  Big geek emporium.  Randy and Joe made the site because DTRPG pulls things that are "offensive".  Or so they say, as they're our mommy and we're not adults.  You bought.  You delete it from your account.  But it stays up for everyone else because nobody made you king. 

https://biggeekemporium.com/ (https://biggeekemporium.com/)

I have love them! I just discovered them a few weeks ago and have been posting stuff that is not on DTRPG (due to the damned exclusivity that I canceled last month but still has the balance of 6 months to go). Now I can post it there!

FYI, the exclusivity is for print items only; you can sell PDFs of stuff on BGE that you have up on DTRPG even before the exclusivity is up.

From what I understand it is the other way around. They exclusivity on my PDFs, and print on demand is fine elsewhere.

Yes, it's for sales of PDFs elsewhere. I posted a couple of titles on BGE and within a week or so got an email from OBS saying that I'd lost my exclusivity with them because of it. It's stupid really. It's not like I was advertising BGE on their site or anything. Still selling on both sites, but not happy at losing an extra 5% for trying to expand my sales reach...

You're both correct; I had it totally backwards. Derp. Just checked my email from six months ago when I hit them up to end it. That's wild though... I had it in my head it was print, so I uploaded PDFs to BGE and they've been there for a few months now. My exclusivity ends in two days on the 17th, and I'd been waiting to put up print versions until then because of that, haha.

DTRPG makes things unnecessarily complicated. I am not posting anything new to them until the 6 months passes and I am non-exclusive for PDFs, and even then I will have to think about it. In fact I have already started pulling stuff from them.

When I started posting things on their site about 10 years ago they were great. Very helpful, and they seemed sincerely interested in helping a goofy amateur like me. Now not so much. In fact I get the impression that they would prefer if small authors like me just went away.

And here is the link to the same game on Big Geek Emporium:

https://biggeekemporium.com/product/black-sun-over-europe-for-pulp-kharma-v-2/ (https://biggeekemporium.com/product/black-sun-over-europe-for-pulp-kharma-v-2/)

On this topic, I recently bought some stuff from DriveThruRPG and my Paypal statement indicated that payment went to Roll20 LLC. Does this mean it's Roll20 that has acquired OneBookShelf? I always thought it was OBS would continue to be its own autonomous entity.

Going for those sweet, sweet woke bucks like a pile of silver spoons

Last time I was asked, I said DTRPG rarely banned games, but now I'm thinking there should be a list of banned books so we can keep track.

I'd only heard f three cases before this one:

- Tournament of rapists, allegedly because contained (fictional) SA.
- A famous OSR author who was allegedly accused of certain things.
- The Good Syma'arian, allegedly because it contained violence against (fictional) children.

I'm not commenting on the first two for lack of information/proof.

Now, I have briefly read The Good Syma'arian and it is not obvious to me why this book should be banned. Maybe Venger can point to the specific parts they objected (IIRC they suggested some changes). I know there are books with more violence (including against children) in DTRPG, and I am suspicious it was banned for being explicitly anti-abortion. I will not point to more violent books because I don't want to cause more banning, but some should be obvious.

Anyway, it's free on BGE:

https://biggeekemporium.com/product/the-good-symaarian/

And now we got a book banned for no apparent reason, and no suggested changes. Maybe it was the cover? Seems odd, since national-socialist villains are very common.

Are there other cases we should know?

Quote from: mudbanks on February 15, 2023, 10:17:31 AM
On this topic, I recently bought some stuff from DriveThruRPG and my Paypal statement indicated that payment went to Roll20 LLC. Does this mean it's Roll20 that has acquired OneBookShelf? I always thought it was OBS would continue to be its own autonomous entity.

One month before Hasbro announced One D&D (and WotC's push for a more digital focus) OBS and Roll20 said that they were merging. My though process at the time was that they wanted to create a single, stronger company for the inevitable future when WotC moves all their digital sales and VTT support in house. However, this would imply that OBS/Roll20 would need indie game even more in the future and, thus, they wouldn't treat their indie creators as disposable.

So, yes, OBS and Roll20 are now one company. And I don't know how they plan to survive in a post-D&D economy.

News story for verification:
https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/roll20-onebookshelf-merger-dmsguild-drivethrurpg-ttrpg-dungeons-dragons/

Quote from: mudbanks on February 15, 2023, 10:17:31 AM
On this topic, I recently bought some stuff from DriveThruRPG and my Paypal statement indicated that payment went to Roll20 LLC. Does this mean it's Roll20 that has acquired OneBookShelf? I always thought it was OBS would continue to be its own autonomous entity.

From what I read OneBookShelf bought Roll20 LLC, but is keeping the name Roll20 (and all the others it owns) since it has such great name recognition.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 15, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
Last time I was asked, I said DTRPG rarely banned games, but now I'm thinking there should be a list of banned books so we can keep track.

I'd only heard f three cases before this one:

- Tournament of rapists, because contained (fictional) SA.
- A famous OSR author who was allegedly accused of certain things.
- The Good Syma'arian, allegedly because it contained violence against (fictional) children.

I'm not commenting on the first two for lack of information/proof.

Now, I have briefly read The Good Syma'arian and it is not obvious to me why this book should be banned. Maybe Venger can point to the specific parts they objected (IIRC they suggested some changes). I know there are books with more violence (including against children) in DTRPG, and I am suspicious it was banned for being explicitly anti-abortion. I will not point to more violent books because I don't want to cause more banning, but some should be obvious.

Anyway, it's free on BGE:

https://biggeekemporium.com/product/the-good-symaarian/

And now we got a book banned for no apparent reason, and no suggested changes. Maybe it was the cover? Seems odd, since national-socialist villains are very common.

Are there other cases we should know?

I was thinking it was the cover too. But it has been posted on DTRPG with an even more 'nazi' cover than this one. Its about fighting against an evil occult nazi conspiracy combined with an ancient demonic evil for G-d's sake!

And in fairness they have not 'permanently' banned it, but just pulled it pending a thorough review.

I would have appreciated if they had told me the nature of the complaint so that I could have responded in defense and perhaps even complied with suggestions on the offensive content (I have already changed the cover just in case that is it...). After all I am not really that interested in irritating people outside my small group of friends and family who just have to take it! but like the goose-stepping Gestapo that the woketards have become there can be no defense for the accused!

So again, Fuck 'em! I have posted it on BGE and ITCHIO and I will get it onto print-on-demand at Amazon and LULU and DTRPG can go pound sand -- I suspect they will do just fine without me.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on February 15, 2023, 11:01:48 AM

However, this would imply that OBS/Roll20 would need indie game even more in the future and, thus, they wouldn't treat their indie creators as disposable...

News story for verification:
https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/roll20-onebookshelf-merger-dmsguild-drivethrurpg-ttrpg-dungeons-dragons/

I think what has happened at OBS/Roll20 is that they are focusing upon the 'bigger' indie creators. I am not one of those, and thus very disposable. and in a way I sort of agree. A year ago I used to make about $100 a month from what I sold on DTRPG. Better than sofa-money but not exactly the dreams of folks looking to take on WotC. Then something happened and my stuff stopped being displayed on the front page, and my sales collapsed. I also noticed that only a few creators ever got into the top 10. I don't think it would be fair to say they were 'shadow-banning' me since I don't think they cared about me at all. Perhaps the better term is 'throttled down' with a new algorithm that focuses on giving more attention to the bigger players. Again, I suspect it might be a wise decision to run folks like me off, and focus on those producers who can and do generate lots of sales. That ain't me except in my dreams! But I keep trying!

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 15, 2023, 11:15:48 AM
And in fairness they have not 'permanently' banned it, but just pulled it pending a thorough review.

Ah, well, this is different. It happened several times, but most of the times it goes back online - or they tell you what the problem is.

It happens when someone complains, and they take a while to review - which, if someone dislikes you, can be used to temporarily damage your sales with no repercussions.

Keep us updated if you can!

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 15, 2023, 11:53:10 AM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 15, 2023, 11:15:48 AM
And in fairness they have not 'permanently' banned it, but just pulled it pending a thorough review.

Ah, well, this is different. It happened several times, but most of the times it goes back online - or they tell you what the problem is.

It happens when someone complains, and they take a while to review - which, if someone dislikes you, can be used to temporarily damage your sales with no repercussions.

Keep us updated if you can!

Innocent until proven guilty, the item should be up for sale while they do their review or else they should put it on hold for I dunno, 2 hours? while they review and resolve the issue.

But they love hurting those they disagree with so they will not change their policies/methods.

I think them having exclusive rights of distribution, even after they decide to cancel it, thus removing it from all market distribution for a period of time; sounds like horse shit.  I would immediately offer it elsewhere.  Not doing so, effectively allows them temporary ownership; of a work they did not create or purchase.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 14, 2023, 09:38:50 PM

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 14, 2023, 08:22:57 PM
I'm sorry to hear that, Squirewaldo; while I myself am the kind of guy who doesn't appreciate certain racy themes (not that this particular game seems to be that), it's not Drivethru's place to make that decision for people.

At the very most, they could place the document on the "NSFW" class which requires buyers to tick a checkbox in their profile to see...

I can only speculate as to WHY there is a problem, but I know it is not because it is in any way racy. The only thing I can think about is that the game is about WW II, and it is about the Nazis and some other very strange occult sort of things that Nazis dabbled in. But I don't know. It might be because I used the wrong font size, or that I used an image that someone finds alarming????

I think a spinoff, that mixed Nazis and Cthulhu type stuff; would be interesting.  Especially, if at the end of the plot; the Nazis come to realize that their destruction was always part of Cthulhu's agenda.  The Nazis were being helped along in their destructive ways, but they too would be destroyed in the process.  Cthulhu loves no one.

Quote from: Jam The MF on February 15, 2023, 01:48:20 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 14, 2023, 09:38:50 PM

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 14, 2023, 08:22:57 PM
I'm sorry to hear that, Squirewaldo; while I myself am the kind of guy who doesn't appreciate certain racy themes (not that this particular game seems to be that), it's not Drivethru's place to make that decision for people.

At the very most, they could place the document on the "NSFW" class which requires buyers to tick a checkbox in their profile to see...

I can only speculate as to WHY there is a problem, but I know it is not because it is in any way racy. The only thing I can think about is that the game is about WW II, and it is about the Nazis and some other very strange occult sort of things that Nazis dabbled in. But I don't know. It might be because I used the wrong font size, or that I used an image that someone finds alarming????

I think a spinoff, that mixed Nazis and Cthulhu type stuff; would be interesting.  Especially, if at the end of the plot; the Nazis come to realize that their destruction was always part of Cthulhu's agenda.  The Nazis were being helped along in their destructive ways, but they too would be destroyed in the process.  Cthulhu loves no one.

My adventure did not involve Cthulhu, but involved a sinister ancient evil that was looking to take advantage of the chaos of WW II.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 14, 2023, 09:38:50 PM
I can only speculate as to WHY there is a problem, but I know it is not because it is in any way racy. The only thing I can think about is that the game is about WW II, and it is about the Nazis and some other very strange occult sort of things that Nazis dabbled in. But I don't know. It might be because I used the wrong font size, or that I used an image that someone finds alarming????

I checked it out over on BGE.  If I had to place a bet, I think the cover image just being a big nazi occult symbol is probably what got their attention.  Whoever flagged it probably never got past that.

Here's hoping Big Geek Emporium grows into a major competitor!!

Quote from: Almost_Useless on February 15, 2023, 10:49:39 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 14, 2023, 09:38:50 PM
I can only speculate as to WHY there is a problem, but I know it is not because it is in any way racy. The only thing I can think about is that the game is about WW II, and it is about the Nazis and some other very strange occult sort of things that Nazis dabbled in. But I don't know. It might be because I used the wrong font size, or that I used an image that someone finds alarming????

I checked it out over on BGE.  If I had to place a bet, I think the cover image just being a big nazi occult symbol is probably what got their attention.  Whoever flagged it probably never got past that.

That is my guess as well. But before the current cover of the Black Sun radials I had a really 'bad' one with a death head with runes cut into the skull and it was up for over 5 years without comment. Still no word from DTRPG. Good luck to them.

I'm another person banned from DTRPG, but I knew it was inevitable, so I made myself a catalyst:  I changed my Radical High prices to 100 times their retail prices, then posted on the items' descriptions: Save 99% by purchasing this on Big Geek Emporium!

It took a whole 2 1/2 days.  But I felt the freedom when it happened.  I did this in reaction to abuse I received from the corporation.

More censorship from the pearl clutchers at D.T.

The Red Room's satirical game 'Men' has been pulled.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 10:35:20 AM
More censorship from the pearl clutchers at D.T.

The Red Room's satirical game 'Men' has been pulled.

Do you all remember the shit throwing going on when I made a thread to push people to publish on BGE?

"Waa, waa, muh user interface!"

"Mumble, mumble like the SJWs putting the message "free speech" before the quality of the product!"

Well, now you know WHY we have a desperate need of someone like the folks at BGE to grow big enough to be a force in the market.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 11:44:27 AM
Do you all remember the shit throwing going on when I made a thread to push people to publish on BGE?

"Waa, waa, muh user interface!"

"Mumble, mumble like the SJWs putting the message "free speech" before the quality of the product!"

I remember you starting a thread with the question of why more people didn't use said site, and then got upset that people answered you...

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 11:44:27 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 10:35:20 AM
More censorship from the pearl clutchers at D.T.

The Red Room's satirical game 'Men' has been pulled.

Do you all remember the shit throwing going on when I made a thread to push people to publish on BGE?

"Waa, waa, muh user interface!"

"Mumble, mumble like the SJWs putting the message "free speech" before the quality of the product!"

Well, now you know WHY we have a desperate need of someone like the folks at BGE to grow big enough to be a force in the market.

Yes, I do remember, and the unfair negative response by some people was very dissappointing. But people are sheep and I guess it takes a few sheerings before folks wake up... if at all.

But don't stop! I had never heard of BGE before you pointed them out, and now I am loving it! Thanks!

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 11:44:27 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 10:35:20 AM
More censorship from the pearl clutchers at D.T.

The Red Room's satirical game 'Men' has been pulled.

Do you all remember the shit throwing going on when I made a thread to push people to publish on BGE?

"Waa, waa, muh user interface!"

"Mumble, mumble like the SJWs putting the message "free speech" before the quality of the product!"

Well, now you know WHY we have a desperate need of someone like the folks at BGE to grow big enough to be a force in the market.

Absolutely man. It's essential to get some competition out there at this stage. At least the Red Room are on there.

I'm not buying another thing on DT (Unless I can't get it anywhere else).

I haven't read MEN - it seems to be obvious satire, in the vein of "violence RPG" and "Macho Women With Guns" (that I've browsed briefly).

So, apparently, there might be a viable niche for BGE (despite RPGs being a small niche in itself): "games that are too controversial for DTRPG.".

Interesting stuff.

I like having alternatives to DTRPG.

Is Pundit on there? I can't seem to find him on it.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 11:52:09 AM
Is Pundit on there? I can't seem to find him on it.

No, he isn't.

I'm never buying anything from DT unless I can't find/buy it somewhere else  ;).

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 11:55:37 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 11:52:09 AM
Is Pundit on there? I can't seem to find him on it.

No, he isn't.

I'm never buying anything from DT unless I can't find/buy it somewhere else  ;).

He really should be!  ;D

Unfortuntely DT are a necessary evil (for now). But I really hate the idea of having to buy from censorious dweebs.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 11:44:27 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 10:35:20 AM
More censorship from the pearl clutchers at D.T.

The Red Room's satirical game 'Men' has been pulled.

Do you all remember the shit throwing going on when I made a thread to push people to publish on BGE?

"Waa, waa, muh user interface!"

"Mumble, mumble like the SJWs putting the message "free speech" before the quality of the product!"

Well, now you know WHY we have a desperate need of someone like the folks at BGE to grow big enough to be a force in the market.

Youtube DESPERATELY needs a competitor, but they'll never get one, because hosting is expensive, and the other platforms look and handle like dogshit. Me pointing this out doesn't make me a waaa waa crybaby, shill, or fan of Youtube, merely a realist.

DTRPG has market dominance, everything people want in one place, and nice infrastructure. Anyone wanting to knock them off their perch needs to offer something comparable, or people simply will not bite. With a shit interface, they're dead in the water. Even if our tiny group swarmed to them for muh moral stance.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 16, 2023, 12:14:18 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 11:44:27 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 10:35:20 AM
More censorship from the pearl clutchers at D.T.

The Red Room's satirical game 'Men' has been pulled.

Do you all remember the shit throwing going on when I made a thread to push people to publish on BGE?

"Waa, waa, muh user interface!"

"Mumble, mumble like the SJWs putting the message "free speech" before the quality of the product!"

Well, now you know WHY we have a desperate need of someone like the folks at BGE to grow big enough to be a force in the market.

Youtube DESPERATELY needs a competitor, but they'll never get one, because hosting is expensive, and the other platforms look and handle like dogshit. Me pointing this out doesn't make me a waaa waa crybaby, shill, or fan of Youtube, merely a realist.

DTRPG has market dominance, everything people want in one place, and nice infrastructure. Anyone wanting to knock them off their perch needs to offer something comparable, or people simply will not bite. With a shit interface, they're dead in the water. Even if our tiny group swarmed to them for muh moral stance.

User experience is very important, but couldn't BGE just improve on theirs?

I know nothing about creating websites to be honest.

Everyone has to start somewhere.  It's less about where they are now than:

- Is it possible to function at all, now? 
- Is it secure?
- Are the developers responsive?
- What are the pace of improvements?

Who knows. If they have a good base, they might rapidly improve past other options.  A lot of sites are built on clunky, off the shelf bits that eventually show their age.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 16, 2023, 12:34:10 PM
Who knows. If they have a good base, they might rapidly improve past other options.  A lot of sites are built on clunky, off the shelf bits that eventually show their age.

This is what I'm thinking if you could get a few extra bods on there it would draw some more attention.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 12:29:35 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 16, 2023, 12:14:18 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 11:44:27 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 10:35:20 AM
More censorship from the pearl clutchers at D.T.

The Red Room's satirical game 'Men' has been pulled.

Do you all remember the shit throwing going on when I made a thread to push people to publish on BGE?

"Waa, waa, muh user interface!"

"Mumble, mumble like the SJWs putting the message "free speech" before the quality of the product!"

Well, now you know WHY we have a desperate need of someone like the folks at BGE to grow big enough to be a force in the market.

Youtube DESPERATELY needs a competitor, but they'll never get one, because hosting is expensive, and the other platforms look and handle like dogshit. Me pointing this out doesn't make me a waaa waa crybaby, shill, or fan of Youtube, merely a realist.

DTRPG has market dominance, everything people want in one place, and nice infrastructure. Anyone wanting to knock them off their perch needs to offer something comparable, or people simply will not bite. With a shit interface, they're dead in the water. Even if our tiny group swarmed to them for muh moral stance.

User experience is very important, but couldn't BGE just improve on theirs?

I know nothing about creating websites to be honest.

They could and they should, best of luck to them. I'd cheer them on just on general anti-Monopoly principles, never mind the woke crap.

I'm just separating hard facts from high-minded stances is all.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 16, 2023, 12:44:07 PM
I'd cheer them on just on general anti-Monopoly principles,

Yep... Fuck monopolies.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 16, 2023, 12:44:07 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 12:29:35 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 16, 2023, 12:14:18 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 11:44:27 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 10:35:20 AM
More censorship from the pearl clutchers at D.T.

The Red Room's satirical game 'Men' has been pulled.

Do you all remember the shit throwing going on when I made a thread to push people to publish on BGE?

"Waa, waa, muh user interface!"

"Mumble, mumble like the SJWs putting the message "free speech" before the quality of the product!"

Well, now you know WHY we have a desperate need of someone like the folks at BGE to grow big enough to be a force in the market.

Youtube DESPERATELY needs a competitor, but they'll never get one, because hosting is expensive, and the other platforms look and handle like dogshit. Me pointing this out doesn't make me a waaa waa crybaby, shill, or fan of Youtube, merely a realist.

DTRPG has market dominance, everything people want in one place, and nice infrastructure. Anyone wanting to knock them off their perch needs to offer something comparable, or people simply will not bite. With a shit interface, they're dead in the water. Even if our tiny group swarmed to them for muh moral stance.

User experience is very important, but couldn't BGE just improve on theirs?

I know nothing about creating websites to be honest.

They could and they should, best of luck to them. I'd cheer them on just on general anti-Monopoly principles, never mind the woke crap.

I'm just separating hard facts from high-minded stances is all.

Your analisis is correct, it still costs money to improve, so we should help where we can, buy from them, offer constructive criticism, donate money/time (if you can), sell on their site (especially if you're a known developer), promote it...

Or we could sit on our thumbs and wait for a competitor to fall from the sky.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 12:48:56 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 16, 2023, 12:44:07 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 12:29:35 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 16, 2023, 12:14:18 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 11:44:27 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 10:35:20 AM
More censorship from the pearl clutchers at D.T.

The Red Room's satirical game 'Men' has been pulled.

Do you all remember the shit throwing going on when I made a thread to push people to publish on BGE?

"Waa, waa, muh user interface!"

"Mumble, mumble like the SJWs putting the message "free speech" before the quality of the product!"

Well, now you know WHY we have a desperate need of someone like the folks at BGE to grow big enough to be a force in the market.

Youtube DESPERATELY needs a competitor, but they'll never get one, because hosting is expensive, and the other platforms look and handle like dogshit. Me pointing this out doesn't make me a waaa waa crybaby, shill, or fan of Youtube, merely a realist.

DTRPG has market dominance, everything people want in one place, and nice infrastructure. Anyone wanting to knock them off their perch needs to offer something comparable, or people simply will not bite. With a shit interface, they're dead in the water. Even if our tiny group swarmed to them for muh moral stance.

User experience is very important, but couldn't BGE just improve on theirs?

I know nothing about creating websites to be honest.

They could and they should, best of luck to them. I'd cheer them on just on general anti-Monopoly principles, never mind the woke crap.

I'm just separating hard facts from high-minded stances is all.

Your analisis is correct, it still costs money to improve, so we should help where we can, buy from them, offer constructive criticism, donate money/time (if you can), sell on their site (especially if you're a known developer), promote it...

Or we could sit on our thumbs and wait for a competitor to fall from the sky.

I'm happy to sell my art there, but I'd have to talk to Grim Jim as he does that stuff for me.

So I saw a post by Miguel from the Red Room on Facebook - It looks like their store had been permanently banned under Drivethru's 'hostile marketing' clause.

This is a terrible thing to happen to a small indie publisher.  :(

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 04:19:00 PM
So I saw a post by Miguel from the Red Room on Facebook - It looks like their store had been permanently banned under Drivethru's 'hostile marketing' clause.

This is a terrible thing to happen to a small indie publisher.  :(

I am thinking more and more that this is not about getting rid of politically incorrect folks, but small publishers. They want Roll20 to compete with WotC with some of their bigger publishers. Us small fries get in the way.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 16, 2023, 04:23:27 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 04:19:00 PM
So I saw a post by Miguel from the Red Room on Facebook - It looks like their store had been permanently banned under Drivethru's 'hostile marketing' clause.

This is a terrible thing to happen to a small indie publisher.  :(

I am thinking more and more that this is not about getting rid of politically incorrect folks, but small publishers. They want Roll20 to compete with WotC with some of their bigger publishers. Us small fries get in the way.

Yeah, got to keep the 'community' safe from small creators - who make edgy content. Won't someone think of the children!?

I wrote them a letter complaining about it - for all the good it will do.  :(

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 12:54:34 PM

I'm happy to sell my art there, but I'd have to talk to Grim Jim as he does that stuff for me.

Wait, you do art?

Send me a pm with a quote for a small B&W illustration of an alien animal of my design.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 07:14:36 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 12:54:34 PM

I'm happy to sell my art there, but I'd have to talk to Grim Jim as he does that stuff for me.

Wait, you do art?

Send me a pm with a quote for a small B&W illustration of an alien animal of my design.

I have got a specific style so you might not like it - Have a look before just in case:

https://www.instagram.com/robnecronomicon/

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 07:19:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 07:14:36 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 12:54:34 PM

I'm happy to sell my art there, but I'd have to talk to Grim Jim as he does that stuff for me.

Wait, you do art?

Send me a pm with a quote for a small B&W illustration of an alien animal of my design.

I have got a specific style so you might not like it - Have a look before just in case:

https://www.instagram.com/robnecronomicon/

That looks cool, my only thing is I want all the art to be on the same style, so I need to make the math in advance.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 07:33:53 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 07:19:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 07:14:36 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 12:54:34 PM

I'm happy to sell my art there, but I'd have to talk to Grim Jim as he does that stuff for me.

Wait, you do art?

Send me a pm with a quote for a small B&W illustration of an alien animal of my design.

I have got a specific style so you might not like it - Have a look before just in case:

https://www.instagram.com/robnecronomicon/

That looks cool, my only thing is I want all the art to be on the same style, so I need to make the math in advance.

No worries... Drop me a PM. Ta!

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 16, 2023, 12:14:18 PM

Youtube DESPERATELY needs a competitor, but they'll never get one, because hosting is expensive, and the other platforms look and handle like dogshit. Me pointing this out doesn't make me a waaa waa crybaby, shill, or fan of Youtube, merely a realist.

There are two YT competitors that work fine for content creators you already know about (vs. finding similar content)-

Rumble - does standard stuff plus live streaming. Several alternative press types use it as their primary home and mirror to YT. Doesn't seem to support RSS, but you can get email notifications of new content from followed folks. Ads are up front.

Odysee - does the standard stuff. Venger and Grim Jim both mirror their YT content here (and that is where I consume said). Supports RSS. No ads mid thought (vs. YT).

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 16, 2023, 04:23:27 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 04:19:00 PM
So I saw a post by Miguel from the Red Room on Facebook - It looks like their store had been permanently banned under Drivethru's 'hostile marketing' clause.

This is a terrible thing to happen to a small indie publisher.  :(

I am thinking more and more that this is not about getting rid of politically incorrect folks, but small publishers. They want Roll20 to compete with WotC with some of their bigger publishers. Us small fries get in the way.

Maybe it's about getting rid of small publishers who are politically incorrect. It can and probably is both.

Anyone with a "content policy" like theirs is just itching to use it.

The guy who owns Roll20 is a leftard self-hating white dude (told Taking 20 to fuck of because he's a white dude and he only wants black females on a joint venture - note it was a bunch of old D&D dudes who can make videos but no I'm not going to watch non-actors run a D&D campaign there was a financial reason not to partner with him but he made it racial + the Reddit Dumpster fire thread for Roll20 when the owner went Nazi on a redditor).  Seeing as Roll20 bought Drivethru don't expect a friendly environment over there.

What we would need would be a parallel economy style site set up for RPG sales as an alternative, with payment processing etc.  At the rate things are going we'll need a parallel economy for grocery stores as well.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 16, 2023, 12:14:18 PM
Youtube DESPERATELY needs a competitor, but they'll never get one, because hosting is expensive, and the other platforms look and handle like dogshit. Me pointing this out doesn't make me a waaa waa crybaby, shill, or fan of Youtube, merely a realist.

One word: Rumble.

But YT will have dominance because of the Google behemoth.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 16, 2023, 12:14:18 PM
Youtube DESPERATELY needs a competitor, but they'll never get one, because hosting is expensive, and the other platforms look and handle like dogshit. Me pointing this out doesn't make me a waaa waa crybaby, shill, or fan of Youtube, merely a realist.

DTRPG has market dominance, everything people want in one place, and nice infrastructure. Anyone wanting to knock them off their perch needs to offer something comparable, or people simply will not bite. With a shit interface, they're dead in the water. Even if our tiny group swarmed to them for muh moral stance.

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

I buy games so I can play them and have fun. Life is already hard enough as it is. If a store has what I want and has a better user interface, that's where I'll buy my stuff. Sure, I would gladly give another store my money if it has the products I'm looking for and has a reasonably decent interface. BGE has neither at the moment. When it does, I'll gladly give them my business, but until then, I don't see why or how I can "support" them. Similarly, if there are two great games, but one feels the need to spread THE MESSAGE, obviously I'll give my money to the other one.

Being told off for not supporting another store for legitimate reasons is just as annoying as being wokescolded.

Quote from: Diversity Dragon on February 16, 2023, 11:02:35 PMAnyone with a "content policy" like theirs is just itching to use it.

"Show me the man, and I'll show you the crime."

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 15, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
Last time I was asked, I said DTRPG rarely banned games, but now I'm thinking there should be a list of banned books so we can keep track.

I'd only heard f three cases before this one:

- Tournament of rapists, allegedly because contained (fictional) SA.
- A famous OSR author who was allegedly accused of certain things.
- The Good Syma'arian, allegedly because it contained violence against (fictional) children.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 15, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
And now we got a book banned for no apparent reason, and no suggested changes. Maybe it was the cover? Seems odd, since national-socialist villains are very common.

Based on the other cases, I think this passage from the module ("Black Sun over Europe") stands out as the possible issue:

QuoteFrom the testimony of his accomplices it was discovered that not only did Gille Derais sexually abuse the children prior to murdering them, but he also abused their corpses, and had a particular interest in abusing the wounds and dismembered parts of the dead children. He took "infinitely more pleasure in debauching (the open wounds and bloody entrails)... than in using their natural orifice, in the normal manner."

I don't know if there are other RPG products which have similar, but it seems a common issue between these products.

Quote from: jhkim on February 17, 2023, 01:59:30 AM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 15, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
Last time I was asked, I said DTRPG rarely banned games, but now I'm thinking there should be a list of banned books so we can keep track.

I'd only heard f three cases before this one:

- Tournament of rapists, allegedly because contained (fictional) SA.
- A famous OSR author who was allegedly accused of certain things.
- The Good Syma'arian, allegedly because it contained violence against (fictional) children.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 15, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
And now we got a book banned for no apparent reason, and no suggested changes. Maybe it was the cover? Seems odd, since national-socialist villains are very common.

Based on the other cases, I think this passage from the module ("Black Sun over Europe") stands out as the possible issue:

QuoteFrom the testimony of his accomplices it was discovered that not only did Gille Derais sexually abuse the children prior to murdering them, but he also abused their corpses, and had a particular interest in abusing the wounds and dismembered parts of the dead children. He took "infinitely more pleasure in debauching (the open wounds and bloody entrails)... than in using their natural orifice, in the normal manner."

I don't know if there are other RPG products which have similar, but it seems a common issue between these products.

Ohh, the humanity! Describing how the obviously evil man is obviously evil so the players have a reason to despise him in a FICTIONAL setting is naturally a bridge too far. Now let's all support hormone blockers for 7 year-olds and chemically castrate them as a prelude to the physical genital mutilation they will receive at age 10 in THE REAL WORLD.

If anyone needs me I'll be out back cleaning my woodchipper.

The YT/Rumble thing follows the same dynamic and DTRPG/BGE.

I.e., the bigger they get, the more the censorship hurts - BUT the bigger the censorship, the stronger the competition becomes.

Nowadays I use rumble to watch stuff that is forbidden on YT (which is increasingly common in my country).

DTRPG is the same: I rarely buy stuff elsewhere (Lulu, Itch.io), but now I'm curious about certain books (red room) that can no longer be found there, so I'm getting stuff from BGE too.

[with that said, I do think jhkim found what is the issue with BSOE. Still curious about the Red Room however - why exactly were the banned?]

Quote from: jhkim on February 17, 2023, 01:59:30 AM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 15, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
Last time I was asked, I said DTRPG rarely banned games, but now I'm thinking there should be a list of banned books so we can keep track.

I'd only heard f three cases before this one:

- Tournament of rapists, allegedly because contained (fictional) SA.
- A famous OSR author who was allegedly accused of certain things.
- The Good Syma'arian, allegedly because it contained violence against (fictional) children.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 15, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
And now we got a book banned for no apparent reason, and no suggested changes. Maybe it was the cover? Seems odd, since national-socialist villains are very common.

Based on the other cases, I think this passage from the module ("Black Sun over Europe") stands out as the possible issue:

QuoteFrom the testimony of his accomplices it was discovered that not only did Gille Derais sexually abuse the children prior to murdering them, but he also abused their corpses, and had a particular interest in abusing the wounds and dismembered parts of the dead children. He took "infinitely more pleasure in debauching (the open wounds and bloody entrails)... than in using their natural orifice, in the normal manner."

I don't know if there are other RPG products which have similar, but it seems a common issue between these products.

I am sorry that you found the almost word for word description of the court case findings against Gille Derais, found in a history book, disturbing to you. I find it difficult to believe that creating a villain based upon an actual person, and accurately describing that person is the cause of this problem. Particularly since I removed most of the really graphic stuff.

But even if it was, it has been 4 days since it has been pulled and I still do not know what the problem is. So perhaps you are right? I don't know.

Quote from: Effete on February 17, 2023, 08:29:00 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 17, 2023, 01:59:30 AM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 15, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
Last time I was asked, I said DTRPG rarely banned games, but now I'm thinking there should be a list of banned books so we can keep track.

I'd only heard f three cases before this one:

- Tournament of rapists, allegedly because contained (fictional) SA.
- A famous OSR author who was allegedly accused of certain things.
- The Good Syma'arian, allegedly because it contained violence against (fictional) children.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 15, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
And now we got a book banned for no apparent reason, and no suggested changes. Maybe it was the cover? Seems odd, since national-socialist villains are very common.

Based on the other cases, I think this passage from the module ("Black Sun over Europe") stands out as the possible issue:

QuoteFrom the testimony of his accomplices it was discovered that not only did Gille Derais sexually abuse the children prior to murdering them, but he also abused their corpses, and had a particular interest in abusing the wounds and dismembered parts of the dead children. He took "infinitely more pleasure in debauching (the open wounds and bloody entrails)... than in using their natural orifice, in the normal manner."

I don't know if there are other RPG products which have similar, but it seems a common issue between these products.

Ohh, the humanity! Describing how the obviously evil man is obviously evil so the players have a reason to despise him in a FICTIONAL setting is naturally a bridge too far. Now let's all support hormone blockers for 7 year-olds and chemically castrate them as a prelude to the physical genital mutilation they will receive at age 10 in THE REAL WORLD.

If anyone needs me I'll be out back cleaning my woodchipper.

I think we all need a woodchipper.

Quote from: Effete on February 17, 2023, 08:29:00 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 17, 2023, 01:59:30 AM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 15, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
Last time I was asked, I said DTRPG rarely banned games, but now I'm thinking there should be a list of banned books so we can keep track.

I'd only heard f three cases before this one:

- Tournament of rapists, allegedly because contained (fictional) SA.
- A famous OSR author who was allegedly accused of certain things.
- The Good Syma'arian, allegedly because it contained violence against (fictional) children.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 15, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
And now we got a book banned for no apparent reason, and no suggested changes. Maybe it was the cover? Seems odd, since national-socialist villains are very common.

Based on the other cases, I think this passage from the module ("Black Sun over Europe") stands out as the possible issue:

QuoteFrom the testimony of his accomplices it was discovered that not only did Gille Derais sexually abuse the children prior to murdering them, but he also abused their corpses, and had a particular interest in abusing the wounds and dismembered parts of the dead children. He took "infinitely more pleasure in debauching (the open wounds and bloody entrails)... than in using their natural orifice, in the normal manner."

I don't know if there are other RPG products which have similar, but it seems a common issue between these products.

Ohh, the humanity! Describing how the obviously evil man is obviously evil so the players have a reason to despise him in a FICTIONAL setting is naturally a bridge too far. Now let's all support hormone blockers for 7 year-olds and chemically castrate them as a prelude to the physical genital mutilation they will receive at age 10 in THE REAL WORLD.

If anyone needs me I'll be out back cleaning my woodchipper.

The actual bridge too far for the woke was clearly in depicting a "minor attracted person" with dismemberment and necrophilic fetishs as a villain and not a poor soul misunderstood by the evil patriarchal heteronormative society judging him.

We're going to need more wood chippers.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 17, 2023, 10:01:19 AM

Quote from: Effete on February 17, 2023, 08:29:00 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 17, 2023, 01:59:30 AM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 15, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
Last time I was asked, I said DTRPG rarely banned games, but now I'm thinking there should be a list of banned books so we can keep track.

I'd only heard f three cases before this one:

- Tournament of rapists, allegedly because contained (fictional) SA.
- A famous OSR author who was allegedly accused of certain things.
- The Good Syma'arian, allegedly because it contained violence against (fictional) children.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 15, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
And now we got a book banned for no apparent reason, and no suggested changes. Maybe it was the cover? Seems odd, since national-socialist villains are very common.

Based on the other cases, I think this passage from the module ("Black Sun over Europe") stands out as the possible issue:

QuoteFrom the testimony of his accomplices it was discovered that not only did Gille Derais sexually abuse the children prior to murdering them, but he also abused their corpses, and had a particular interest in abusing the wounds and dismembered parts of the dead children. He took "infinitely more pleasure in debauching (the open wounds and bloody entrails)... than in using their natural orifice, in the normal manner."

I don't know if there are other RPG products which have similar, but it seems a common issue between these products.

Ohh, the humanity! Describing how the obviously evil man is obviously evil so the players have a reason to despise him in a FICTIONAL setting is naturally a bridge too far. Now let's all support hormone blockers for 7 year-olds and chemically castrate them as a prelude to the physical genital mutilation they will receive at age 10 in THE REAL WORLD.

If anyone needs me I'll be out back cleaning my woodchipper.

The actual bridge too far for the woke was clearly in depicting a "minor attracted person" with dismemberment and necrophilic fetishs as a villain and not a poor soul misunderstood by the evil patriarchal heteronormative society judging him.

We're going to need more wood chippers.

HMMMMMMMM. that might very well be the problem. If only I had made Gille Derais the hero of the story?

However, the historically accurate (but not overly graphic) description taken from a history book anyone can buy is contained in the section for GM EYES ONLY so the the GM can just choose to not include it in the game. I am so sick of the 21st Century. I wrote this little adventure over 10 years ago.

Mark my words, things are about to get much worse very quickly.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 12:29:35 PM
User experience is very important, but couldn't BGE just improve on theirs?

Yes. And they better do so soon, as user experience is more important that ideological affiliation.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 04:19:00 PM
So I saw a post by Miguel from the Red Room on Facebook - It looks like their store had been permanently banned under Drivethru's 'hostile marketing' clause.

Could you provide a link? Really wish folks would stop using #Facebook as their public face.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on February 17, 2023, 10:34:50 AM
Mark my words, things are about to get much worse very quickly.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 12:29:35 PM
User experience is very important, but couldn't BGE just improve on theirs?

Yes. And they better do so soon, as user experience is more important that ideological affiliation.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 04:19:00 PM
So I saw a post by Miguel from the Red Room on Facebook - It looks like their store had been permanently banned under Drivethru's 'hostile marketing' clause.

Could you provide a link? Really wish folks would stop using #Facebook as their public face.

He also posted on MeWe:

https://mewe.com/i/moordereht (https://mewe.com/i/moordereht)

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on February 17, 2023, 10:34:50 AM
Really wish folks would stop using #Facebook as their public face.

Amen. Or any other social media platform for that matter. It's not really any harder to set up a regular website.

Quote from: jhkim on February 17, 2023, 01:59:30 AM
Based on the other cases, I think this passage from the module ("Black Sun over Europe") stands out as the possible issue:

QuoteFrom the testimony of his accomplices it was discovered that not only did Gille Derais sexually abuse the children prior to murdering them, but he also abused their corpses, and had a particular interest in abusing the wounds and dismembered parts of the dead children. He took "infinitely more pleasure in debauching (the open wounds and bloody entrails)... than in using their natural orifice, in the normal manner."

I don't know if there are other RPG products which have similar, but it seems a common issue between these products.

That is literally quoted in the Wikipedia entry for Gilles de Rais.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilles_de_Rais#Child_murders

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 17, 2023, 11:13:59 AM
He also posted on MeWe:

https://mewe.com/i/moordereht (https://mewe.com/i/moordereht)

They put it on their website as well.

https://moordereht.com/2023/02/17/is-this-the-end-of-the-red-room/

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 17, 2023, 09:32:12 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 17, 2023, 01:59:30 AM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 15, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
Last time I was asked, I said DTRPG rarely banned games, but now I'm thinking there should be a list of banned books so we can keep track.

I'd only heard f three cases before this one:

- Tournament of rapists, allegedly because contained (fictional) SA.
- A famous OSR author who was allegedly accused of certain things.
- The Good Syma'arian, allegedly because it contained violence against (fictional) children.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 15, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
And now we got a book banned for no apparent reason, and no suggested changes. Maybe it was the cover? Seems odd, since national-socialist villains are very common.

Based on the other cases, I think this passage from the module ("Black Sun over Europe") stands out as the possible issue:

QuoteFrom the testimony of his accomplices it was discovered that not only did Gille Derais sexually abuse the children prior to murdering them, but he also abused their corpses, and had a particular interest in abusing the wounds and dismembered parts of the dead children. He took "infinitely more pleasure in debauching (the open wounds and bloody entrails)... than in using their natural orifice, in the normal manner."

I don't know if there are other RPG products which have similar, but it seems a common issue between these products.

I am sorry that you found the almost word for word description of the court case findings against Gille Derais, found in a history book, disturbing to you. I find it difficult to believe that creating a villain based upon an actual person, and accurately describing that person is the cause of this problem. Particularly since I removed most of the really graphic stuff.

WTF? I didn't say I found it disturbing. I just pointed it out since both you and Eric Diaz were speculating as to why, and no one else had mentioned it. Obviously, yes, there exist rapists and serial killers of children in the real world, but it seems like DTRPG's bannings have been over including those in RPG material.

My pointing it out isn't endorsing DTRPG.

Having looked over the adventure, here is my other feedback:

1) The repeated text between the Player's Section and the GM section is jarring. I guess this is for when you print it out as a one shot so that the GM also has a copy of the player material, but that isn't the usual practice for a published module, and it makes the 26-page module seem padded.

2) The player's section includes material that seems GM-specific, such as description of the crypts under the church, which the SAS would know nothing of. Also, the slightly different but overlapping text on page 8 and page 23 describes what the SAS team are doing initially. I guess that's intended for starting "in media res", but if so, the GM section should just refer to the player section rather than partially repeating the same text.

3) If there are two PC teams (SAS and Nazi), they should have very different initial player material, but that doesn't seem acknowledged. The SAS would have no reason to have briefing on Joan of Arc. The Nazi team shouldn't know about the approaching SAS.

4) Regarding the expected adventure. If there is only one PC team of SAS, then it seems likely that they will just come in, shoot the four Nazis, and leave with the girl (or die trying). The backstory won't factor in, and they're unlikely to talk to the Black Sun. I would think that giving the SAS some reason to investigate might help bring in the backstory.

Quote from: jhkim on February 17, 2023, 12:28:14 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 17, 2023, 09:32:12 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 17, 2023, 01:59:30 AM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 15, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
Last time I was asked, I said DTRPG rarely banned games, but now I'm thinking there should be a list of banned books so we can keep track.

I'd only heard f three cases before this one:

- Tournament of rapists, allegedly because contained (fictional) SA.
- A famous OSR author who was allegedly accused of certain things.
- The Good Syma'arian, allegedly because it contained violence against (fictional) children.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 15, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
And now we got a book banned for no apparent reason, and no suggested changes. Maybe it was the cover? Seems odd, since national-socialist villains are very common.

Based on the other cases, I think this passage from the module ("Black Sun over Europe") stands out as the possible issue:

QuoteFrom the testimony of his accomplices it was discovered that not only did Gille Derais sexually abuse the children prior to murdering them, but he also abused their corpses, and had a particular interest in abusing the wounds and dismembered parts of the dead children. He took "infinitely more pleasure in debauching (the open wounds and bloody entrails)... than in using their natural orifice, in the normal manner."

I don't know if there are other RPG products which have similar, but it seems a common issue between these products.

I am sorry that you found the almost word for word description of the court case findings against Gille Derais, found in a history book, disturbing to you. I find it difficult to believe that creating a villain based upon an actual person, and accurately describing that person is the cause of this problem. Particularly since I removed most of the really graphic stuff.

WTF? I didn't say I found it disturbing. I just pointed it out since both you and Eric Diaz were speculating as to why, and no one else had mentioned it. Obviously, yes, there exist rapists and serial killers of children in the real world, but it seems like DTRPG's bannings have been over including those in RPG material.

My pointing it out isn't endorsing DTRPG.

Having looked over the adventure, here is my other feedback:

1) The repeated text between the Player's Section and the GM section is jarring. I guess this is for when you print it out as a one shot so that the GM also has a copy of the player material, but that isn't the usual practice for a published module, and it makes the 26-page module seem padded.

2) The player's section includes material that seems GM-specific, such as description of the crypts under the church, which the SAS would know nothing of. Also, the slightly different but overlapping text on page 8 and page 23 describes what the SAS team are doing initially. I guess that's intended for starting "in media res", but if so, the GM section should just refer to the player section rather than partially repeating the same text.

3) If there are two PC teams (SAS and Nazi), they should have very different initial player material, but that doesn't seem acknowledged. The SAS would have no reason to have briefing on Joan of Arc. The Nazi team shouldn't know about the approaching SAS.

4) Regarding the expected adventure. If there is only one PC team of SAS, then it seems likely that they will just come in, shoot the four Nazis, and leave with the girl (or die trying). The backstory won't factor in, and they're unlikely to talk to the Black Sun. I would think that giving the SAS some reason to investigate might help bring in the backstory.

Thank you and sorry for making an assumption!

I will think about and review #1 through #3.

As for #4 if you play Pulp Kharma I think you will find that is not how things work. It is very pulpy!

Just to play devil's advocate here:

Gruesome details of child dismemberment and molestation are not necessarily suitable for all platforms, simply by being accurate or clinical. Something read in court by necessity, for instance, maybe wouldn't mesh with the ethos of the Disney channel, for instance.

Personally I'd support the site allowing even very adult or disturbing content, by simply adding mature content tags; but I'm not a modern bedwetter company, beset by cry-bully activists 24/7.   

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 10:35:20 AM
More censorship from the pearl clutchers at D.T.

The Red Room's satirical game 'Men' has been pulled.

I just bought "Men!", the RPG based on a brief overview by DM Bloodworth's YouTube channel.

Now, I'm ok with the satirical content, but this game has no boundaries.  NONE!   Example.  There is tons of stuff that would make Andrew Dice Clay or Joe Pesci from the Goodfellas movie stop and apologize to women and gay men. 

You.  Have.  Been.  Warned. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 17, 2023, 12:53:57 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 10:35:20 AM
More censorship from the pearl clutchers at D.T.

The Red Room's satirical game 'Men' has been pulled.

I just bought "Men!", the RPG based on a brief overview by DM Bloodworth's YouTube channel.

Now, I'm ok with the satirical content, but this game has no boundaries.  NONE!   Example.  There is tons of stuff that would make Andrew Dice Clay or Joe Pesci from the Goodfellas movie stop and apologize to women and gay men. 

You.  Have.  Been.  Warned.

Sounds fucking great.

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/169adc00aa5089188f1f378147bdb8a5/tenor.gif?itemid=3446989)

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 17, 2023, 12:53:57 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 10:35:20 AM
More censorship from the pearl clutchers at D.T.

The Red Room's satirical game 'Men' has been pulled.

I just bought "Men!", the RPG based on a brief overview by DM Bloodworth's YouTube channel.

Now, I'm ok with the satirical content, but this game has no boundaries.  NONE!   Example.  There is tons of stuff that would make Andrew Dice Clay or Joe Pesci from the Goodfellas movie stop and apologize to women and gay men. 

You.  Have.  Been.  Warned.

Oh my where are my pearls???

And I may very well buy it! That sounds like what free speech is all about!

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 17, 2023, 12:53:57 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 10:35:20 AM
More censorship from the pearl clutchers at D.T.

The Red Room's satirical game 'Men' has been pulled.

I just bought "Men!", the RPG based on a brief overview by DM Bloodworth's YouTube channel.

Now, I'm ok with the satirical content, but this game has no boundaries.  NONE!   Example.  There is tons of stuff that would make Andrew Dice Clay or Joe Pesci from the Goodfellas movie stop and apologize to women and gay men. 

You.  Have.  Been.  Warned.

Could you provide some examples?

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 17, 2023, 12:53:57 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 10:35:20 AM
More censorship from the pearl clutchers at D.T.

The Red Room's satirical game 'Men' has been pulled.

I just bought "Men!", the RPG based on a brief overview by DM Bloodworth's YouTube channel.

Now, I'm ok with the satirical content, but this game has no boundaries.  NONE!   Example.  There is tons of stuff that would make Andrew Dice Clay or Joe Pesci from the Goodfellas movie stop and apologize to women and gay men. 

You.  Have.  Been.  Warned.

I just had another thought... Is Red Room doing a Kanye West??? Being so provocative that they cut him???? Maybe I should do something like that. I have 4 and a half months before my exclusivity clause is dead, and until then they have me throttled down to zero. HMMMMM?

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 17, 2023, 12:53:57 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 10:35:20 AM
More censorship from the pearl clutchers at D.T.

The Red Room's satirical game 'Men' has been pulled.

I just bought "Men!", the RPG based on a brief overview by DM Bloodworth's YouTube channel.

Now, I'm ok with the satirical content, but this game has no boundaries.  NONE!   Example.  There is tons of stuff that would make Andrew Dice Clay or Joe Pesci from the Goodfellas movie stop and apologize to women and gay men. 

You.  Have.  Been.  Warned.

You got the memo if you actually watched Bloodworth's vid. I mean the tagline is a game 'worse' than FATAL (allegedly). It's so over the top in its vulgarity it can only be seen as a work of satire (as it states multiple times).

This is not a game for certain 'conservative' types or the wokescolds.

It's not a game I'd play because I'm not into comedy RPGs I bought it purely to support for RR and out of sheer curiosity.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 17, 2023, 01:05:19 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 17, 2023, 12:53:57 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 10:35:20 AM
More censorship from the pearl clutchers at D.T.

The Red Room's satirical game 'Men' has been pulled.

I just bought "Men!", the RPG based on a brief overview by DM Bloodworth's YouTube channel.

Now, I'm ok with the satirical content, but this game has no boundaries.  NONE!   Example.  There is tons of stuff that would make Andrew Dice Clay or Joe Pesci from the Goodfellas movie stop and apologize to women and gay men. 

You.  Have.  Been.  Warned.

You got the memo if you actually watched Bloodworth's vid. I mean the tagline is a game 'worse' than FATAL (allegedly). It's so over the top in its vulgarity it can only be seen as a work of satire (as it states multiple times).

This is not a game for certain 'conservative' types or the wokescolds.

It's not a game I'd play because I'm not into comedy RPGs I bought it purely to support for RR and out of sheer curiosity.

If it doesn't have 'circumference' tables for infants, it's not worse than FATAL.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExOWYwMTNkNGFlOWJkNGJkYmQxMmFmNDYxMzliOTNiOGM1MDk5OWE4YyZjdD1n/cQtlhD48EG0SY/giphy.gif)

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 17, 2023, 01:07:21 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 17, 2023, 01:05:19 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 17, 2023, 12:53:57 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 10:35:20 AM
More censorship from the pearl clutchers at D.T.

The Red Room's satirical game 'Men' has been pulled.

I just bought "Men!", the RPG based on a brief overview by DM Bloodworth's YouTube channel.

Now, I'm ok with the satirical content, but this game has no boundaries.  NONE!   Example.  There is tons of stuff that would make Andrew Dice Clay or Joe Pesci from the Goodfellas movie stop and apologize to women and gay men. 

You.  Have.  Been.  Warned.

You got the memo if you actually watched Bloodworth's vid. I mean the tagline is a game 'worse' than FATAL (allegedly). It's so over the top in its vulgarity it can only be seen as a work of satire (as it states multiple times).

This is not a game for certain 'conservative' types or the wokescolds.

It's not a game I'd play because I'm not into comedy RPGs I bought it purely to support for RR and out of sheer curiosity.

If it doesn't have 'circumference' tables for infants, it's not worse than FATAL.

Yummy! That's why I said allegedly. ;)

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 17, 2023, 01:07:21 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 17, 2023, 01:05:19 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 17, 2023, 12:53:57 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 10:35:20 AM
More censorship from the pearl clutchers at D.T.

The Red Room's satirical game 'Men' has been pulled.

I just bought "Men!", the RPG based on a brief overview by DM Bloodworth's YouTube channel.

Now, I'm ok with the satirical content, but this game has no boundaries.  NONE!   Example.  There is tons of stuff that would make Andrew Dice Clay or Joe Pesci from the Goodfellas movie stop and apologize to women and gay men. 

You.  Have.  Been.  Warned.

You got the memo if you actually watched Bloodworth's vid. I mean the tagline is a game 'worse' than FATAL (allegedly). It's so over the top in its vulgarity it can only be seen as a work of satire (as it states multiple times).

This is not a game for certain 'conservative' types or the wokescolds.

It's not a game I'd play because I'm not into comedy RPGs I bought it purely to support for RR and out of sheer curiosity.

If it doesn't have 'circumference' tables for infants, it's not worse than FATAL.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExOWYwMTNkNGFlOWJkNGJkYmQxMmFmNDYxMzliOTNiOGM1MDk5OWE4YyZjdD1n/cQtlhD48EG0SY/giphy.gif)

The more I learn abouut the people of this planet, the less I want to live among them.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 17, 2023, 12:45:57 PM
Just to play devil's advocate here:

Gruesome details of child dismemberment and molestation are not necessarily suitable for all platforms, simply by being accurate or clinical. Something read in court by necessity, for instance, maybe wouldn't mesh with the ethos of the Disney channel, for instance.

Personally I'd support the site allowing even very adult or disturbing content, by simply adding mature content tags; but I'm not a modern bedwetter company, beset by cry-bully activists 24/7.

This right here, what has the world come to when a Christian, Conservative, Puritan (ME) thinks that if it doesn't break the law it should be allowed to exist, just label it so I don't click/buy by accident. Meanwhile the "liberals" are for censorship of porn, violence, etc.

It feels like I'm in the upside-down world. But then again I was on my Edgy-Atheist fase when the Christians had the power and were the censorious ones.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 17, 2023, 01:30:02 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 17, 2023, 12:45:57 PM
Gruesome details of child dismemberment and molestation are not necessarily suitable for all platforms, simply by being accurate or clinical. Something read in court by necessity, for instance, maybe wouldn't mesh with the ethos of the Disney channel, for instance.

Personally I'd support the site allowing even very adult or disturbing content, by simply adding mature content tags; but I'm not a modern bedwetter company, beset by cry-bully activists 24/7.

This right here, what has the world come to when a Christian, Conservative, Puritan (ME) thinks that if it doesn't break the law it should be allowed to exist, just label it so I don't click/buy by accident. Meanwhile the "liberals" are for censorship of porn, violence, etc.

I feel the real problem here is the effective monopoly that DriveThruRPG has.

Absent monopoly, I think it's perfectly reasonable that a given store doesn't want to carry pornographic and/or otherwise edgy products. There should be different stores with different standards. And some products will have to be self-published and self-distributed, like underground comics or chapbooks. If a given store won't sell your pornography for you, that doesn't inherently mean they're anti-freedom and anti-free-speech.

Men! The RPG examples.   Remember, you asked for this.

Super, over the top misogyny and old school sensibilities about straight sex good.  Gay sex?  Not so much.  Nothing is held sacred.

For example, one chapter is managing your erection, which is a thing in this game as the type gives you bonuses in situations your manly PC likes.  Includes things like murder of people you don't like will "raise" your boner stat.   Yup.  That level of weird.

The stats for women are in the items list with the rest of the gear, obviously.

Feminazis are a monster type, drawn towards any happiness which they must destroy.  Super hot Gorgons are monsters too, and flashing you is an attack type.   

I'm not even going to try any of the really bad stuff.  It's NSFW so much I'm not even sure 4-Chan would allow it up on their site. 

Quote from: jhkim on February 17, 2023, 02:09:12 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 17, 2023, 01:30:02 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 17, 2023, 12:45:57 PM
Gruesome details of child dismemberment and molestation are not necessarily suitable for all platforms, simply by being accurate or clinical. Something read in court by necessity, for instance, maybe wouldn't mesh with the ethos of the Disney channel, for instance.

Personally I'd support the site allowing even very adult or disturbing content, by simply adding mature content tags; but I'm not a modern bedwetter company, beset by cry-bully activists 24/7.

This right here, what has the world come to when a Christian, Conservative, Puritan (ME) thinks that if it doesn't break the law it should be allowed to exist, just label it so I don't click/buy by accident. Meanwhile the "liberals" are for censorship of porn, violence, etc.

I feel the real problem here is the effective monopoly that DriveThruRPG has.

Absent monopoly, I think it's perfectly reasonable that a given store doesn't want to carry pornographic and/or otherwise edgy products. There should be different stores with different standards. And some products will have to be self-published and self-distributed, like underground comics or chapbooks. If a given store won't sell your pornography for you, that doesn't inherently mean they're anti-freedom and anti-free-speech.

The REAL problem is the "liberals" and their censorious ways.

But I love how you go to the "It's a private company and can do what it wants" defense, up until some billionaire con-man you disagree with comes and buys it. Then suddenly you guys go back to demanding the government do something because the corporation isn't working in tandem with it to trample the citizens rights.

That sounds eerily familiar, if only I could remember where/when the corporations were an arm of the state...  ???

To keep this on DriveThruRPG, something I'd like to see is a list of what products were banned from DriveThruRPG and why. But then, I'd also want to see a list of posters who are banned from theRPGsite and why. Eric Diaz started this:

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 15, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
Last time I was asked, I said DTRPG rarely banned games, but now I'm thinking there should be a list of banned books so we can keep track.

I'd only heard f three cases before this one:

- Tournament of Rapists, allegedly because contained (fictional) SA.
- A famous OSR author who was allegedly accused of certain things.
- The Good Syma'arian, allegedly because it contained violence against (fictional) children.

I'd add to this that in 2019 they banned the game Police_Procedure for anti-police hate, and then the publisher Transfelinism for slander. They also banned Dave Johnson Games' "Alarums & Journeys" in 2022. And now Black Sun over Europe (product) and Red Room (publisher) in 2023.

Can anyone add to this list?

Thus far, it is significant, but they're carrying many thousands of RPG titles. They don't seem to be like RPGnet supposedly is with frequent bans. In fact, their bans seem less frequent than RPGPundit's bans.

Quote from: jhkim on February 17, 2023, 07:06:33 PM
Thus far, it is significant, but they're carrying many thousands of RPG titles. They don't seem to be like RPGnet supposedly is with frequent bans. In fact, their bans seem less frequent than RPGPundit's bans.

Emphasis mine.

(https://rightwirereport.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Ostrich-Head-In-Sand.jpg)

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 17, 2023, 07:13:51 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 17, 2023, 07:06:33 PM
Thus far, it is significant, but they're carrying many thousands of RPG titles. They don't seem to be like RPGnet supposedly is with frequent bans. In fact, their bans seem less frequent than RPGPundit's bans.

Emphasis mine.

To be clear: I'm not doubting that they have frequent bans. I've just never hung out there myself - just briefly read. I don't want to make claims about stuff that I have no direct knowledge of.

They yeeted a gamergate card game, also nuked red rooms entire account not just the offending title

Red Room was seemingly banned because they complained publicly. If they'd just sat quietly by, Drivethru would have banned the book and everything would have continued on until RR published something else that someone found offensive. But RR complained about the book being taken down on Twitter which is what Drivethru called "hostile marketing," and thus the whole account was banned.

I just have to wonder how many smaller items have been quietly shut down. How many small publishers get a title taken down and never raise a stink about it online, either because of the rules or because they just don't care? It could easily be none or dozens, and we have no way to know.

Quote from: Ocule on February 17, 2023, 07:49:00 PM
They yeeted a gamergate card game, also nuked red rooms entire account not just the offending title

Right. They did the same with Transfelinism Games over their anti-police RPG, because Transfelinism supposedly posted false claims about what DriveThruRPG had done. (And again, "supposedly" doesn't mean I doubt it, just that I don't have direct knowledge one way or the other.) So the list that I have so far is:

• "#GamerGate" card game by Desborough in 2014 (single product)
• "Tournament of Rapists" by Scorched Urf' Studios in 2015 (single product)
• Zak Smith products in 2019 (everything by author)
• Transfelinism products in 2019 (everything from company)
• "The Good Syma'arian" by Venger Satanis in 2022 (single product)
• Dave Johnson Games in 2022 (everything from company)
• "Black Sun over Europe" by SquireWaldo in 2023 (single product)
• Red Room in 2023 (everything from publisher)

Single product bans being like thread bans, and publisher/author bans being permanent bans from the site.

Also, does anyone have a list of theRPGsite bans for comparison? I can recall psiandco, Alathon, griswald, and Pat (and SHARK temporarily) as recent ones - but my memory isn't great for earlier ones. Offhand I can think of Biscuitician and 5stonegames by name, but I know there are a bunch more.

It isn't worth making a list over. And Pundit has nothing to do with OBS. Anybody who knowingly goes down that rabbit hole is an actual moron.

OBS's censorship speaks for itself. You either agree with it or you don't. Period.

sum tard was offended by the black sun symbol which they had never seen before in their life until they saw racist frog memes use it.

Quote from: jhkim on February 17, 2023, 11:00:31 PM

Right. They did the same with Transfelinism Games over their anti-police RPG, because Transfelinism supposedly posted false claims about what DriveThruRPG had done. (And again, "supposedly" doesn't mean I doubt it, just that I don't have direct knowledge one way or the other.) So the list that I have so far is:

• "#GamerGate" card game by Desborough in 2014 (single product)
• "Tournament of Rapists" by Scorched Urf' Studios in 2015 (single product)
• Zak Smith products in 2019 (everything by author)
• Transfelinism products in 2019 (everything from company)
• "The Good Syma'arian" by Venger Satanis in 2022 (single product)
• Dave Johnson Games in 2022 (everything from company)
• "Black Sun over Europe" by SquireWaldo in 2023 (single product)
• Red Room in 2023 (everything from publisher)

Single product bans being like thread bans, and publisher/author bans being permanent bans from the site.

Judges Guild got nuked (full ban) for public antisemitic posts on facebook (real and confirmed by Bob II, not misuse of the label or misunderstanding his point) in early 2020. Most (all?) the industry on the left and right did the same (with some edge cases such as a sublicensed reprint kickstarter that was ready to launch). Put the last nails in the coffin of JG's off the rails and way behind schedule KS (a 8 years late and counting).

Quote from: jhkim on February 17, 2023, 11:00:31 PM

Quote from: Ocule on February 17, 2023, 07:49:00 PM
They yeeted a gamergate card game, also nuked red rooms entire account not just the offending title

Right. They did the same with Transfelinism Games over their anti-police RPG, because Transfelinism supposedly posted false claims about what DriveThruRPG had done. (And again, "supposedly" doesn't mean I doubt it, just that I don't have direct knowledge one way or the other.) So the list that I have so far is:

• "#GamerGate" card game by Desborough in 2014 (single product)
• "Tournament of Rapists" by Scorched Urf' Studios in 2015 (single product)
• Zak Smith products in 2019 (everything by author)
• Transfelinism products in 2019 (everything from company)
• "The Good Syma'arian" by Venger Satanis in 2022 (single product)
• Dave Johnson Games in 2022 (everything from company)
• "Black Sun over Europe" by SquireWaldo in 2023 (single product)
• Red Room in 2023 (everything from publisher)

Single product bans being like thread bans, and publisher/author bans being permanent bans from the site.

Also, does anyone have a list of theRPGsite bans for comparison? I can recall psiandco, Alathon, griswald, and Pat (and SHARK temporarily) as recent ones - but my memory isn't great for earlier ones. Offhand I can think of Biscuitician and 5stonegames by name, but I know there are a bunch more.

Because getting banned from this forum impacts your livelihood right?

What part of this forum rules aren't crystal clear?

The anti-semitism?

The not posting on a thread you were banned from? (Sure, enough time and you might forget so on this one I think the bann should be temporal not permanent).

The no politics unless directly related with TTRPGs?

I still miss Pat, I wish his ban was lifted.

That said, how much money does one loose if Pundit bans you?

I can go talk shit somewhere else, heck I can even criticize Pundit, here and anywhere else and not get banned.

But you go ahead caping for the censorious corporation, you seem to do much caping for corporations for a leftist.

GeekyBugle - you're the one arguing that censorship is OK as long as it doesn't impact someone's livelihood, or as long as the rules are clear, or as long as you're censoring anti-semitism, etc. You're giving excuses for censorship. By your logic, it's OK to censor a free product like "The Good Syma'arian".

I'm saying that censorship is censorship. I don't like it regardless of who is doing it.

It's Pundit's forum and he has the legal right to do it, just as OBS has the right to choose what they sell. But they are engaging in censorship.

The best I can say about both is that it seems infrequent.

Quote from: jhkim on February 17, 2023, 11:00:31 PM

Quote from: Ocule on February 17, 2023, 07:49:00 PM
They yeeted a gamergate card game, also nuked red rooms entire account not just the offending title

Right. They did the same with Transfelinism Games over their anti-police RPG, because Transfelinism supposedly posted false claims about what DriveThruRPG had done. (And again, "supposedly" doesn't mean I doubt it, just that I don't have direct knowledge one way or the other.) So the list that I have so far is:

• "#GamerGate" card game by Desborough in 2014 (single product)
• "Tournament of Rapists" by Scorched Urf' Studios in 2015 (single product)
• Zak Smith products in 2019 (everything by author)
• Transfelinism products in 2019 (everything from company)
• "The Good Syma'arian" by Venger Satanis in 2022 (single product)
• Dave Johnson Games in 2022 (everything from company)
• "Black Sun over Europe" by SquireWaldo in 2023 (single product)
• Red Room in 2023 (everything from publisher)

Single product bans being like thread bans, and publisher/author bans being permanent bans from the site.

Also, does anyone have a list of theRPGsite bans for comparison? I can recall psiandco, Alathon, griswald, and Pat (and SHARK temporarily) as recent ones - but my memory isn't great for earlier ones. Offhand I can think of Biscuitician and 5stonegames by name, but I know there are a bunch more.

The Zak ban was for products moving forward; existing products were left up (but at least the ones I've released, DriveThru has directed their 30% of sales to a charity).

Zak Has Nothing To Do With This Book was banned (even after being renamed An Analysis of Man and the Satanic Power He Contains) in 2019, and since then I've had to submit all products in advance before they can go live on there... in 2021, they refused Asterion, and they required Wight Power to be renamed (which the author agreed to, and we went with Title Redacted).

This weekend I'm submitting my next slate of products with hope they get reviewed in time to have a simultaneous print and PDF release. Really looking forward to that now...

Quote from: jhkim on February 18, 2023, 01:15:02 AM
GeekyBugle - you're the one arguing that censorship is OK as long as it doesn't impact someone's livelihood, or as long as the rules are clear, or as long as you're censoring anti-semitism, etc. You're giving excuses for censorship. By your logic, it's OK to censor a free product like "The Good Syma'arian".

I'm saying that censorship is censorship. I don't like it regardless of who is doing it.

It's Pundit's forum and he has the legal right to do it, just as OBS has the right to choose what they sell. But they are engaging in censorship.

The best I can say about both is that it seems infrequent.

I am making excuses for censorship? No Jhkim, I'm saying you're comparing apples and oranges to say it's a wash and anyhow "muh private company can do what it wants".

Here the rules ARE clear, it's not left to some cunt to report you and then bam the right wing mods come and bann your leftist ass.

Furthermore theRPGSite is small potatoes, it's not a monopoly, not being able to post anti-semitic shit here doesn't really silence ANYONE because they can go and say it in every leftist website, and they do.

DTTRPG is a defacto monopoly censoring one side while the other gets a pass, thirsty sword lesbians has a forced conversion from straight to lesbian and gets a pass, go publish something with a conversion the other way around and see how fast you gett banned.

But it's okay because it's your side doing it to those you see as your enemies.

Now please keep on with the "muh private company" bullshit.

Quote from: Howard on February 18, 2023, 12:11:30 AM
Judges Guild got nuked (full ban) for public antisemitic posts on facebook (real and confirmed by Bob II, not misuse of the label or misunderstanding his point) in early 2020. Most (all?) the industry on the left and right did the same (with some edge cases such as a sublicensed reprint kickstarter that was ready to launch). Put the last nails in the coffin of JG's off the rails and way behind schedule KS (a 8 years late and counting).

Can someone please link to antisemitic Facebook posts?

Because the word is used for everything from calling for a new Holocaust, to spicy moustache-man memes, right down to politely suggesting Israel sometimes acts shitty. One size fits all.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 18, 2023, 03:37:54 AM

Quote from: Howard on February 18, 2023, 12:11:30 AM
Judges Guild got nuked (full ban) for public antisemitic posts on facebook (real and confirmed by Bob II, not misuse of the label or misunderstanding his point) in early 2020. Most (all?) the industry on the left and right did the same (with some edge cases such as a sublicensed reprint kickstarter that was ready to launch). Put the last nails in the coffin of JG's off the rails and way behind schedule KS (a 8 years late and counting).

Can someone please link to antisemitic Facebook posts?

Because the word is used for everything from calling for a new Holocaust, to spicy moustache-man memes, right down to politely suggesting Israel sometimes acts shitty. One size fits all.

Here's Rob Conley's post on it https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2020/02/concerning-judges-guild.html

Quote from: S'mon on February 18, 2023, 06:32:51 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 18, 2023, 03:37:54 AM

Quote from: Howard on February 18, 2023, 12:11:30 AM
Judges Guild got nuked (full ban) for public antisemitic posts on facebook (real and confirmed by Bob II, not misuse of the label or misunderstanding his point) in early 2020. Most (all?) the industry on the left and right did the same (with some edge cases such as a sublicensed reprint kickstarter that was ready to launch). Put the last nails in the coffin of JG's off the rails and way behind schedule KS (a 8 years late and counting).

Can someone please link to antisemitic Facebook posts?

Because the word is used for everything from calling for a new Holocaust, to spicy moustache-man memes, right down to politely suggesting Israel sometimes acts shitty. One size fits all.

Here's Rob Conley's post on it https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2020/02/concerning-judges-guild.html

Thank you!  8)

Well that was like watching someone commit suicide. Someone thinking those are things to say in the open in 2023 is somewhat mindboggling.

I checked out the company website, seems like an old man selling just a few old modules. Maybe he doesn't give a crap?

Quote from: Slipshot762 on February 18, 2023, 12:08:32 AM
sum tard was offended by the black sun symbol which they had never seen before in their life until they saw racist frog memes use it.

But the Black Sun is approved by the ADL, the U.S. Government and every NATO member government.   (So's the Wolfsangel symbol, BTW).  I'm surprised they would find anything wrong with it.   Instead of seeing it on "racist frog memes," perhaps they saw it on the former insignia of U.S.-supported regular Ukrainian army unit the Azov Regiment?

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 18, 2023, 07:14:39 AM

Well that was like watching someone commit suicide. Someone thinking those are things to say in the open in 2023 is somewhat mindboggling.

I checked out the company website, seems like an old man selling just a few old modules. Maybe he doesn't give a crap?

He did at one time.

Short version- in '14 Bob III launched a kickstarter to refurb The City State of the Invincible Overlord (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/judgesguild/city-state-of-the-invincible-overlord/). Bob III (grandson of the original publisher) then proceeded to do little and walk away with the money. Bob II (note the switch from three to two) stepped in and said he'd finish the project and make folks whole. To facilitate that he started allowing other companies to reprint/rework other JG IP (the profits from this would be used to pay for fulfillment of the failed city state KS). This included two collectors editions of some of their content (#1 finished before things got ugly, the third was axed due to this mess, the 2nd was pushed through because it was already a sunk cost for Goodman when things got ugly). What pushed it over the finish line (IMO) was that it focused on the works of Paul (now Jennell) Jaquays- having the works of a trans person squished would look bad, at least in some circles. Publishing it would at least be a Pyrrhic victory. Other than JG selling some of Jaquays  products outright to Goodman Games (Caverns of Thracia), JG has not done squat since the implosion in '20. Seemingly all the IP sales aren't generating any cash as the proceeds are being given to apropos charities.

I give Bob II credit for trying to clean up the mess his son created (failed, but he at least took ownership of the issue). That both Bob II and III have some nasty views is a separate show stopper.

Well after five days of reviewing my little adventure about fighting strange occult bad guys during WW II, I got an answer from the assholes at DTRPG (I paraphrase):

Everything is cool with the adventure, although they suggested I change the cover which had a graphic image of the Black Sun (from the 19th Century not related to Nazis) containing a skull in the center with runes on it (almost like something you would see on a Ukrainian Army uniform - egad where are my pearls). I already did that so its moot.

However, now they are accusing me of violating the 'exclusivity' agreement by posting other products elsewhere; products that were never posted on DTRPG. They insist I pull everything off of every other website until the exclusivity period ends on July 21, 2023.

So I am just going to ignore them. They have no right to demand that. If they want to ban me then so be it. They are probably going to do so whatever I do. I suppose I should be flattered that they have put so much effort into screwing with me. I never thought I was worth the trouble! I just wish I had done something worthy of being banned!!!! I suspect it has nothing to do with me and more to do with ITCHIO and BGE becoming more of a threat (I have been posting all my new stuff on those two websites).

Maybe there is still time to produce something incredibly offensive and posting it on DTRPG before they ban me? Any suggestions?

Quote from: Howard on February 18, 2023, 10:57:50 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 18, 2023, 07:14:39 AM

Well that was like watching someone commit suicide. Someone thinking those are things to say in the open in 2023 is somewhat mindboggling.

I checked out the company website, seems like an old man selling just a few old modules. Maybe he doesn't give a crap?

He did at one time.

Short version- in '14 Bob III launched a kickstarter to refurb The City State of the Invincible Overlord (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/judgesguild/city-state-of-the-invincible-overlord/). Bob III (grandson of the original publisher) then proceeded to do little and walk away with the money. Bob II (note the switch from three to two) stepped in and said he'd finish the project and make folks whole. To facilitate that he started allowing other companies to reprint/rework other JG IP (the profits from this would be used to pay for fulfillment of the failed city state KS). This included two collectors editions of some of their content (#1 finished before things got ugly, the third was axed due to this mess, the 2nd was pushed through because it was already a sunk cost for Goodman when things got ugly). What pushed it over the finish line (IMO) was that it focused on the works of Paul (now Jennell) Jaquays- having the works of a trans person squished would look bad, at least in some circles. Publishing it would at least be a Pyrrhic victory. Other than JG selling some of Jaquays  products outright to Goodman Games (Caverns of Thracia), JG has not done squat since the implosion in '20. Seemingly all the IP sales aren't generating any cash as the proceeds are being given to apropos charities.

I give Bob II credit for trying to clean up the mess his son created (failed, but he at least took ownership of the issue). That both Bob II and III have some nasty views is a separate show stopper.

Thanks for the info.

The first generation builds the business, the second makes it a success, and the third wrecks it.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 11:57:44 AMMaybe there is still time to produce something incredibly offensive and posting it on DTRPG before they ban me? Any suggestions?

Post Seinfeld jokes from the 90's, that's as edgy as you need to be so as to be labelled an Insta-phobe in 2023.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 18, 2023, 12:03:41 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 11:57:44 AMMaybe there is still time to produce something incredibly offensive and posting it on DTRPG before they ban me? Any suggestions?

Post Seinfeld jokes from the 90's, that's as edgy as you need to be so as to be labelled an Insta-phobe in 2023.

I know, I could do a Kanye West! Come up with a game where all the players are SS guards in a death camp, and their goal is to kill, rape, and then loot the bodies of dead Jews! All before happy hour! That should get me booted from DTRPG!

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 11:57:44 AM
Well after five days of reviewing my little adventure about fighting strange occult bad guys during WW II, I got an answer from the assholes at DTRPG (I paraphrase):

Everything is cool with the adventure, although they suggested I change the cover which had a graphic image of the Black Sun (from the 19th Century not related to Nazis) containing a skull in the center with runes on it (almost like something you would see on a Ukrainian Army uniform - egad where are my pearls). I already did that so its moot.

However, now they are accusing me of violating the 'exclusivity' agreement by posting other products elsewhere; products that were never posted on DTRPG. They insist I pull everything off of every other website until the exclusivity period ends on July 21, 2023.

So I am just going to ignore them. They have no right to demand that. If they want to ban me then so be it. They are probably going to do so whatever I do. I suppose I should be flattered that they have put so much effort into screwing with me. I never thought I was worth the trouble! I just wish I had done something worthy of being banned!!!! I suspect it has nothing to do with me and more to do with ITCHIO and BGE becoming more of a threat (I have been posting all my new stuff on those two websites).

Maybe there is still time to produce something incredibly offensive and posting it on DTRPG before they ban me? Any suggestions?

I have to say, if you're asking for suggestions, that DTRPG seems willing to be more or less reasonable in this particular case, especially if the book has been cleared (and, although I see no reason to object to the cover, you said you took care of that already).

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 18, 2023, 01:06:20 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 11:57:44 AM
Well after five days of reviewing my little adventure about fighting strange occult bad guys during WW II, I got an answer from the assholes at DTRPG (I paraphrase):

Everything is cool with the adventure, although they suggested I change the cover which had a graphic image of the Black Sun (from the 19th Century not related to Nazis) containing a skull in the center with runes on it (almost like something you would see on a Ukrainian Army uniform - egad where are my pearls). I already did that so its moot.

However, now they are accusing me of violating the 'exclusivity' agreement by posting other products elsewhere; products that were never posted on DTRPG. They insist I pull everything off of every other website until the exclusivity period ends on July 21, 2023.

So I am just going to ignore them. They have no right to demand that. If they want to ban me then so be it. They are probably going to do so whatever I do. I suppose I should be flattered that they have put so much effort into screwing with me. I never thought I was worth the trouble! I just wish I had done something worthy of being banned!!!! I suspect it has nothing to do with me and more to do with ITCHIO and BGE becoming more of a threat (I have been posting all my new stuff on those two websites).

Maybe there is still time to produce something incredibly offensive and posting it on DTRPG before they ban me? Any suggestions?

I have to say, if you're asking for suggestions, that DTRPG seems willing to be more or less reasonable in this particular case, especially if the book has been cleared (and, although I see no reason to object to the cover, you said you took care of that already).

????? The adventure was always harmless. And now they are trying to force me to use their service 'exclusively' which is not what the 'exclusivity' clause is all about. I hate them even more now.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 12:42:18 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 18, 2023, 12:03:41 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 11:57:44 AMMaybe there is still time to produce something incredibly offensive and posting it on DTRPG before they ban me? Any suggestions?

Post Seinfeld jokes from the 90's, that's as edgy as you need to be so as to be labelled an Insta-phobe in 2023.

I know, I could do a Kanye West! Come up with a game where all the players are SS guards in a death camp, and their goal is to kill, rape, and then loot the bodies of dead Jews! All before happy hour! That should get me booted from DTRPG!

And get you forever labelled as a notzee, with the proof to back it up.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 18, 2023, 01:54:32 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 12:42:18 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 18, 2023, 12:03:41 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 11:57:44 AMMaybe there is still time to produce something incredibly offensive and posting it on DTRPG before they ban me? Any suggestions?

Post Seinfeld jokes from the 90's, that's as edgy as you need to be so as to be labelled an Insta-phobe in 2023.

I know, I could do a Kanye West! Come up with a game where all the players are SS guards in a death camp, and their goal is to kill, rape, and then loot the bodies of dead Jews! All before happy hour! That should get me booted from DTRPG!

And get you forever labelled as a notzee, with the proof to back it up.

Hahahaha! I will be the greatest Jewish Nazi eva'! And maybe I will get invited to hang out Kanye West after DTRPG bans me and cuts me loose!

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 02:06:19 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 18, 2023, 01:54:32 PM
And get you forever labelled as a notzee, with the proof to back it up.

Hahahaha! I will be the greatest Jewish Nazi eva'! And maybe I will get invited to hang out Kanye West after DTRPG bans me and cuts me loose!

squirewaldo - please note that Nazi symbolism and anti-semitic talk can get you in trouble here on this forum as well. It will probably be just a warning as long as it doesn't seem like you mean it, but best not to push it. For example, a prominent poster briefly had a dinosaur with a swastika on it as an icon, and was asked to take it down even though it was clearly not intentionally pro-nazi.

Quote from: jhkim on February 18, 2023, 02:37:40 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 02:06:19 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 18, 2023, 01:54:32 PM
And get you forever labelled as a notzee, with the proof to back it up.

Hahahaha! I will be the greatest Jewish Nazi eva'! And maybe I will get invited to hang out Kanye West after DTRPG bans me and cuts me loose!

squirewaldo - please note that Nazi symbolism and anti-semitic talk can get you in trouble here on this forum as well. It will probably be just a warning as long as it doesn't seem like you mean it, but best not to push it. For example, a prominent poster briefly had a dinosaur with a swastika on it as an icon, and was asked to take it down even though it was clearly not intentionally pro-nazi.

If there is a Nazi here it sure as hell ain't me!!!! Hahahaha! But you keep censoring away! Maybe you could burn some books or something. Maybe even report me!

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 02:06:19 PM

Hahahaha! I will be the greatest Jewish Nazi eva'!

Greater than Ben Shapiro?!

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 16, 2023, 11:52:09 AM
Is Pundit on there? I can't seem to find him on it.

I'm not a publisher. However, as far as I know none of the companies that publish my books have chosen to publish there yet.

Quote from: Brand55 on February 17, 2023, 10:29:11 PM
Red Room was seemingly banned because they complained publicly. If they'd just sat quietly by, Drivethru would have banned the book and everything would have continued on until RR published something else that someone found offensive. But RR complained about the book being taken down on Twitter which is what Drivethru called "hostile marketing," and thus the whole account was banned.

I just have to wonder how many smaller items have been quietly shut down. How many small publishers get a title taken down and never raise a stink about it online, either because of the rules or because they just don't care? It could easily be none or dozens, and we have no way to know.

Look, you can argue about how there's a double standard of content policing with DTRPG, where a game like Men is banned, but Thirsty Sword Lesbians (which features the sword lesbians purging a restaurant of heterosexuals) is allowed to stay on and become a bestseller.

But there is NO question in my mind that this game "Men" was written not as an RPG but as a POLITICAL MESSAGE. And that it's intent was to be offensive.
And that Red Room published it to try to court controversy. And that when DTRPG banned it, they did literally engage in "hostile marketing". 

Shit, when DTRPG came up with the term I felt it was something of an invention. And more, I criticized it as dangerous, because it suggests that publicly complaining in any way about your RPG being suspended counts as "hostile marketing".
But here, the Red Room did EXACTLY what they were saying 'hostile marketers' would do. Before the game was banned they were tweeting stuff along the lines of "we'll see how long it takes before DTRPG bans this one!", and once the game was banned they were using that to sell their other products and promote BGE.

Again, you can argue about how the policy could be abused or taken too far so that any criticism of DTRPG is cause for suspension, and you can argue that the general policy of suspending products is unfair because DTRPG allows all sorts of atrocious content from the left but suspends products for atrocious content from the right.

But you can't actually deny that the Red Room knew exactly what the fuck it was doing here, and was doing exactly what DTRPG had made the hostile marketing policy, and which I will now admit I was wrong to previously wave off as a fictitious boogeyman.

And this bugs me. Why? Because now the next time some product is suspended for bad reasons, DTRPG will be able to claim the "hostile marketing" defense and the fact that some people were engaging in hostile marketing will muddy the water.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 11:57:44 AM
Well after five days of reviewing my little adventure about fighting strange occult bad guys during WW II, I got an answer from the assholes at DTRPG (I paraphrase):

Everything is cool with the adventure, although they suggested I change the cover which had a graphic image of the Black Sun (from the 19th Century not related to Nazis)

The Black Sun symbol certainly IS related to Nazis. Just because it predates Nazism as a movement doesn't mean anything. I'm not saying that the image shouldn't be used in a game or even on the cover of a game, it depends on the context. But claiming it's got nothing to do with Nazis is bullshit.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 12:42:18 PM
I know, I could do a Kanye West! Come up with a game where all the players are SS guards in a death camp, and their goal is to kill, rape, and then loot the bodies of dead Jews! All before happy hour! That should get me booted from DTRPG!

I had scrolled past this but then it occurred to me, this terrible idea might be the most banned idea.

It would be banned in all mainstream areas with allegations of anti-semitism, with the reasoning that the concept trivializes a genocide.
It would probably be banned here- either as alleged anti-semitism or simply because it is in such terrible taste.
It would be banned on a nazi website too though!  You can't talk about death camps there either, but for an entirely different reason!

So you may have stumbled upon one of the few concepts for a game that the modern internet is incapable of hosting or expressing.  Truly a solid example of information that is impossible to record on a medium, like a political-topic analog of Godel's Incompleteness Theorums.

Except that Jews aren't the only Semitic people on the planet:

It's a language family, not a race.

Quote from: Effete on February 17, 2023, 08:29:00 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 17, 2023, 01:59:30 AM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 15, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
Last time I was asked, I said DTRPG rarely banned games, but now I'm thinking there should be a list of banned books so we can keep track.

I'd only heard f three cases before this one:

- Tournament of rapists, allegedly because contained (fictional) SA.
- A famous OSR author who was allegedly accused of certain things.
- The Good Syma'arian, allegedly because it contained violence against (fictional) children.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 15, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
And now we got a book banned for no apparent reason, and no suggested changes. Maybe it was the cover? Seems odd, since national-socialist villains are very common.

Based on the other cases, I think this passage from the module ("Black Sun over Europe") stands out as the possible issue:

QuoteFrom the testimony of his accomplices it was discovered that not only did Gille Derais sexually abuse the children prior to murdering them, but he also abused their corpses, and had a particular interest in abusing the wounds and dismembered parts of the dead children. He took "infinitely more pleasure in debauching (the open wounds and bloody entrails)... than in using their natural orifice, in the normal manner."

I don't know if there are other RPG products which have similar, but it seems a common issue between these products.

Ohh, the humanity! Describing how the obviously evil man is obviously evil so the players have a reason to despise him in a FICTIONAL setting is naturally a bridge too far. Now let's all support hormone blockers for 7 year-olds and chemically castrate them as a prelude to the physical genital mutilation they will receive at age 10 in THE REAL WORLD.

If anyone needs me I'll be out back cleaning my woodchipper.

And yet they let White Wolf get away with it. Funny how that is isnt it?

Quote from: Omega on February 18, 2023, 07:42:44 PM

Quote from: Effete on February 17, 2023, 08:29:00 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 17, 2023, 01:59:30 AM
Based on the other cases, I think this passage from the module ("Black Sun over Europe") stands out as the possible issue:

Ohh, the humanity! Describing how the obviously evil man is obviously evil so the players have a reason to despise him in a FICTIONAL setting is naturally a bridge too far. Now let's all support hormone blockers for 7 year-olds and chemically castrate them as a prelude to the physical genital mutilation they will receive at age 10 in THE REAL WORLD.

If anyone needs me I'll be out back cleaning my woodchipper.

And yet they let White Wolf get away with it. Funny how that is isnt it?

From squirewaldo's update, it turns out that I was wrong in my speculation there. DriveThruRPG took a while getting back to him, but they had no problem with the content of the adventure. It sounds like it was suspended solely because of the cover, and it took several days for them to review it.

From a brief scan, they allow many games that include the swastika or black sun on the cover, but in the cases I see, those are as part of an illustration of nazi villains rather than just the symbol by itself.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:49:51 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 11:57:44 AM
Well after five days of reviewing my little adventure about fighting strange occult bad guys during WW II, I got an answer from the assholes at DTRPG (I paraphrase):

Everything is cool with the adventure, although they suggested I change the cover which had a graphic image of the Black Sun (from the 19th Century not related to Nazis)

The Black Sun symbol certainly IS related to Nazis. Just because it predates Nazism as a movement doesn't mean anything. I'm not saying that the image shouldn't be used in a game or even on the cover of a game, it depends on the context. But claiming it's got nothing to do with Nazis is bullshit.

Never claimed that. The adventure is set in WW II with the SAS and French Resistance fighting a bunch of occult assholes. I said my initial image was from the 19th Century... before the Nazis existed. I did not claim the symbol of the Black Sun was not a nazi symbol. :)

I have decided that you guys, even if you are pearl clutchers, are probably right. I should not make Kanye West jokes. My synagogue might take away my Pessach Sader table.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:45:45 PMAgain, you can argue about how the policy could be abused or taken too far so that any criticism of DTRPG is cause for suspension, and you can argue that the general policy of suspending products is unfair because DTRPG allows all sorts of atrocious content from the left but suspends products for atrocious content from the right.

But you can't actually deny that the Red Room knew exactly what the fuck it was doing here, and was doing exactly what DTRPG had made the hostile marketing policy, and which I will now admit I was wrong to previously wave off as a fictitious boogeyman.

If somebody says about their product "well this product won't last long on DTRPG" ... well... if they're right, they're right, and why is it a problem to say so? If DriveThru believe in their standards then they should have full confidence that "banned from DTRPG!" marketing reflects badly on the product/publisher, and positively on DTRPG.

Their hostile marketing policy also gives publishers who think DriveThru's standards for banning are not great less options in bringing attention to those standards, pushing back against them, and trying to get public support on the matter.

For example, I've been doing my silly shit since long before I was aware of DriveThru bannings being a thing. I have to field questions about why certain things aren't on there. And based on my own things that aren't allowed there, I know ahead of time certain projects aren't at all likely to be allowed on there. Should I have to take on DriveThru's standards in deciding what I publish? And if my standards for a project are different than DriveThru's, shouldn't I be allowed to acknowledge that in public, and in fact use that information and letting people know "hey, this is one of those things?"

I'm sure they'd prefer nobody ever create anything that generates complaints, and especially that nobody would complain, but that's not the world we live in either way. Some things just aren't for everybody, and indeed very much not for certain people.

And since I very much suspect that their standards for banning are more based on just not wanting the headache of complaints that certain things bring and less on internal convictions, their hostile marketing policy gives all the power to those people who want stricter standards.

"This thing is bad and should be punished by being removed! Hey everyone, let's let DriveThruRPG know!" - listened to and possibly acted upon

"The removal of this thing is bad and the people who wanted it removed are wrong!" - shut your mouth, outlaw

The hostile marketing rule is bad not because "hostile marketing" doesn't exist, but because it pretty much requires one to publicly accept DriveThru as the just and fair final arbiter of what is or is not acceptable.

Thanks, by the way, Howard and JimLotFP. The updated list that I have is:

• "#GamerGate" card game by Desborough in 2014 (single product)
• "Tournament of Rapists" by Scorched Urf' Studios in 2015 (single product)
• Zak Smith products published after 2019
• Transfelinism products in 2019 (everything from company)
• Judges Guild products in 2020 (everything from company?)
• "Zak Has Nothing To Do With This Book" from LotFP in 2020 (single product)
• "Asterion" from LotFP in 2021 (single product)
• "The Good Syma'arian" by Venger Satanis in 2022 (single product)
• Dave Johnson Games in 2022 (everything from company)
• Red Room in 2023 (everything from publisher)

Regardless of the censoring being justifiable or not, there is another aspect to consider: are they banning books that people will be interested in, to the point of going to competition in order to get them?

The more books they ban, the greater the chance of a positive answer.

Although DTRPG is far from having real competition IMO.

And, TBH, if not for these bannings I'd say they provide a decent service - which might be an unpopular opinion to add here.

Of course, like most other publishers, I'm scared of being banned for things I say out of DTRPG (because of the "hostile marketing" clause, etc.), and I'm glad banned publishers can find alternatives.

Quote from: JimLotFP on February 19, 2023, 12:06:12 AM
If somebody says about their product "well this product won't last long on DTRPG" ... well... if they're right, they're right, and why is it a problem to say so? If DriveThru believe in their standards then they should have full confidence that "banned from DTRPG!" marketing reflects badly on the product/publisher, and positively on DTRPG.

Their hostile marketing policy also gives publishers who think DriveThru's standards for banning are not great less options in bringing attention to those standards, pushing back against them, and trying to get public support on the matter.

Also, this (emphasis mine).

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:45:45 PM
Look, you can argue about how there's a double standard of content policing with DTRPG, where a game like Men is banned, but Thirsty Sword Lesbians (which features the sword lesbians purging a restaurant of heterosexuals) is allowed to stay on and become a bestseller.

But there is NO question in my mind that this game "Men" was written not as an RPG but as a POLITICAL MESSAGE. And that it's intent was to be offensive.

Wait, are you suggesting that the intent of Thirsty Sword Lesbians is otherwise?

Quote from: Zalman on February 19, 2023, 08:36:18 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:45:45 PM
Look, you can argue about how there's a double standard of content policing with DTRPG, where a game like Men is banned, but Thirsty Sword Lesbians (which features the sword lesbians purging a restaurant of heterosexuals) is allowed to stay on and become a bestseller.

But there is NO question in my mind that this game "Men" was written not as an RPG but as a POLITICAL MESSAGE. And that it's intent was to be offensive.

Wait, are you suggesting that the intent of Thirsty Sword Lesbians is otherwise?

The game has 3 central design tenets:

1) Virtue signal.
2) Piss off "the right people."
3) Make virtually no money, but still win awards.

Quote from: Zalman on February 19, 2023, 08:36:18 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:45:45 PM
Look, you can argue about how there's a double standard of content policing with DTRPG, where a game like Men is banned, but Thirsty Sword Lesbians (which features the sword lesbians purging a restaurant of heterosexuals) is allowed to stay on and become a bestseller.

But there is NO question in my mind that this game "Men" was written not as an RPG but as a POLITICAL MESSAGE. And that it's intent was to be offensive.

Wait, are you suggesting that the intent of Thirsty Sword Lesbians is otherwise?

I didn't read it that way. He is saying you can make an argument there is a double-standard due to the actions of OBS. What he is saying about "Men" is that it was written with the intent of being offensive. I'm sure he will clarify. I read them as separate thoughts.

Out of all this, best case scenario:

• 
  [BGE/whomever] opens annual crowdfunding to expand market reach and improve services?
  
• 
  Hold a prize raffle with tickets granted per $100+ donation?
  
• 
  Review top 10ish products of the past year over stream events?
  
• 
  Host 5ish one shot demos of top five adventures over stream events?
  
• 
  Partnerships with [Nerdrotic/whomever] to reveal/preview upcoming works?
  

They might outdo us on all of that, but it feels like not much is done on our end but cope.

Edit:
BGE is a terrible choice, fill in the blank.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 14, 2023, 05:48:38 PM
The funny thing is that I was thinking of shutting it down along with just about everything else until my 6 month exclusivity period is over.

I here ya.  I dropped everything in my store to zero, until my exclusion period is done.

Quote from: ClusterFluster on February 19, 2023, 10:29:25 AM
Out of all this, best case scenario:

• 
  [BGE/whomever] opens annual crowdfunding to expand market reach and improve services?
  
• 
  Hold a prize raffle with tickets granted per $100+ donation?
  
• 
  Review top 10ish products of the past year over stream events?
  
• 
  Host 5ish one shot demos of top five adventures over stream events?
  
• 
  Partnerships with [Nerdrotic/whomever] to reveal/preview upcoming works?
  

They might outdo us on all of that, but it feels like not much is done on our end but cope.

Also, send some BGE exclusives to bloggers that do reviews. They are rare, but they are out there. (Not sure if BGE has an affiliate program either)

^^ If they don't already...

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 10:38:19 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:49:51 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 11:57:44 AM
Well after five days of reviewing my little adventure about fighting strange occult bad guys during WW II, I got an answer from the assholes at DTRPG (I paraphrase):

Everything is cool with the adventure, although they suggested I change the cover which had a graphic image of the Black Sun (from the 19th Century not related to Nazis)

The Black Sun symbol certainly IS related to Nazis. Just because it predates Nazism as a movement doesn't mean anything. I'm not saying that the image shouldn't be used in a game or even on the cover of a game, it depends on the context. But claiming it's got nothing to do with Nazis is bullshit.

Never claimed that. The adventure is set in WW II with the SAS and French Resistance fighting a bunch of occult assholes. I said my initial image was from the 19th Century... before the Nazis existed. I did not claim the symbol of the Black Sun was not a nazi symbol. :)

In the part you quoted, you are literally saying "19th century not related to the nazis".

Quote from: JimLotFP on February 19, 2023, 12:06:12 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:45:45 PMAgain, you can argue about how the policy could be abused or taken too far so that any criticism of DTRPG is cause for suspension, and you can argue that the general policy of suspending products is unfair because DTRPG allows all sorts of atrocious content from the left but suspends products for atrocious content from the right.

But you can't actually deny that the Red Room knew exactly what the fuck it was doing here, and was doing exactly what DTRPG had made the hostile marketing policy, and which I will now admit I was wrong to previously wave off as a fictitious boogeyman.

If somebody says about their product "well this product won't last long on DTRPG" ... well... if they're right, they're right, and why is it a problem to say so? If DriveThru believe in their standards then they should have full confidence that "banned from DTRPG!" marketing reflects badly on the product/publisher, and positively on DTRPG.

Their hostile marketing policy also gives publishers who think DriveThru's standards for banning are not great less options in bringing attention to those standards, pushing back against them, and trying to get public support on the matter.

For example, I've been doing my silly shit since long before I was aware of DriveThru bannings being a thing. I have to field questions about why certain things aren't on there. And based on my own things that aren't allowed there, I know ahead of time certain projects aren't at all likely to be allowed on there. Should I have to take on DriveThru's standards in deciding what I publish? And if my standards for a project are different than DriveThru's, shouldn't I be allowed to acknowledge that in public, and in fact use that information and letting people know "hey, this is one of those things?"

I'm sure they'd prefer nobody ever create anything that generates complaints, and especially that nobody would complain, but that's not the world we live in either way. Some things just aren't for everybody, and indeed very much not for certain people.

And since I very much suspect that their standards for banning are more based on just not wanting the headache of complaints that certain things bring and less on internal convictions, their hostile marketing policy gives all the power to those people who want stricter standards.

"This thing is bad and should be punished by being removed! Hey everyone, let's let DriveThruRPG know!" - listened to and possibly acted upon

"The removal of this thing is bad and the people who wanted it removed are wrong!" - shut your mouth, outlaw

The hostile marketing rule is bad not because "hostile marketing" doesn't exist, but because it pretty much requires one to publicly accept DriveThru as the just and fair final arbiter of what is or is not acceptable.

The problem with the "hostile marketing" policy is that while their description of what constitutes "hostile marketing" is relatively clear (unlike some site's definitions of something like "offensive speech", for example, being kept intentionally vague so you can't know what not to do), the application of the suspension of products is not balanced or fair; it clearly favors one ideology over another, both because one side is more likely to attempt to get a book suspended than the other, and because the people doing the review are more likely to find 'problems' with one ideological side than the other. So that's how you get what appears to be 'edgy' content from one side of the ideological spectrum getting suspended while equally 'edgy' stuff from the other side is left unmolested.

Obviously, I would prefer a world where DTRPG applied free speech equally, with only the bare minimum standard of "legality" being a cause for suspension, I recognize that as a private company they would also have the right to have a policy that had much heavier restrictions, but those restrictions would need to be clear and comprehensible and be evenly applied by a process that does not favor ideological saboteurs.

Quote from: Zalman on February 19, 2023, 08:36:18 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:45:45 PM
Look, you can argue about how there's a double standard of content policing with DTRPG, where a game like Men is banned, but Thirsty Sword Lesbians (which features the sword lesbians purging a restaurant of heterosexuals) is allowed to stay on and become a bestseller.

But there is NO question in my mind that this game "Men" was written not as an RPG but as a POLITICAL MESSAGE. And that it's intent was to be offensive.

Wait, are you suggesting that the intent of Thirsty Sword Lesbians is otherwise?

No, I'm suggesting that BOTH are a politicization of gaming, and products whose appeal will largely be to buy them to show virtue with your own 'tribe' and to "own" the other side, and therefore I think that both are stupid and contrary to what I want the hobby to be about. I don't want a hobby full of conservative propagandism any more than I want one full of leftist propagandism. I want a hobby that is about the games.

I'm also saying that one of these two products was suspended, while the other was allowed, and that I recognize that this is a serious problem in their moderation policies, but that this is a SEPARATE issue from what I'm arguing.

X

Well, I guess the first question to ask is "which is more viable, trying to get OBS to be more fair, or build enough interest in something like Big Geek Emporium to make it a viable competitor?"

I'll be honest. I don't see Big Geek Emporium as a viable alternative; the name isn't nearly as marketable*, there was literally nothing in its content I (or anyone I know) would have any interest in because it was basically all stuff "too edgy for DriveThruRPG"**, and while they're working on it, the last time I looked the interface was still horrible.***

Maybe it can become more viable, but just like the Christian media genre regularly proves, ideological passion alone won't keep you in business. It's why the Woke always suborn already successful companies rather than building their own.

My suggestion is that until such a viable competitor emerges is that the non-Woke stop playing by the Queensbury Rules and force the Woke to live by their own rules. Drop complaints on their offensive products (ex. TSL's module with forced conversion of a straight woman into a lesbian). Make DriveThruRPG have to wade through a sea of complaints that XYZ is offensive because we complain as much or more than the Woke. Throw sand in the gears.

Hasbro didn't cave until the pushback on the OGL was hurting their bottom line. OBS won't adjust its policies until it affects theirs and part of that means the non-Woke need to stop being polite and going off to rebuild elsewhere.

* "DriveThru" implies in-and-out quick service for buying RPGs. There's no value judgment in the name about its clientele. "Big Geek" implies the only people interested in the products are Geeks, which even if much of the social stigma to the term is gone is still not something most people prefer to think of themselves as. The name alone subconsciously encourages potential customers to think "this isn't for me." Words have power and business names tell others both what they think of themselves and others... "RPG Emporium" or "Emporium of Games" or such would be much more effective.

** If you want to compete with DriveThruRPG you need to provide the staples. A shop that only sells exotic spices isn't really competing against a grocery because it isn't offering any of the staple foods people are interested in buying. They're just a specialty shop for people looking for products outside of the grocery's staples. An rpg store without at least some recognizable brands is just a specialty shop; not competition to DriveThruRPG.

*** Specifically, it's organized as just a random collection of products from a variety of lines that appears to be just sorted by most recent release. There's no "featured" or "top sellers" sections or default grouping by product line or anything to guide the average consumer towards a purchase. If you just show up at the site with no idea of what you're looking for it's just a random collection of covers (many of them on the ugly side) and the navigation is such that if you type in "scifi" on the search bar it returns one product... a superhero retroclone... while typing in "Fantasy" includes "Wretched Space - OSR Rules for Space Opera Games" on the first page of results.

The point being, if you can't find what you want without already knowing what you're looking for, few will stick around to actually look.

That's a lot of fair points. BGE is just a name I picked for example's sake on the grounds that there are virtually no serious competitors to DTRPG in the first place. I second that about the geekiness of the name, that's marketing poison if you don't want to be mixed up with leftists who basically own the word now (it even phonetically aligns). I've also noticed those problems with the BGE interface, and while I was hopeful because it offers some sort of respite from the Woke Dictate its clear that this will only attract edgelords over the long run. A dead end.

There'd have to be an entirely other site with pre-loaded clout that can gather a coalition of major anti-woke producers to provide the same service.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 20, 2023, 08:38:22 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 20, 2023, 07:41:32 AM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 10:38:19 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:49:51 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 11:57:44 AM
Well after five days of reviewing my little adventure about fighting strange occult bad guys during WW II, I got an answer from the assholes at DTRPG (I paraphrase):

Everything is cool with the adventure, although they suggested I change the cover which had a graphic image of the Black Sun (from the 19th Century not related to Nazis)

You are just cherry picking. For what reason is a mystery to me.

The Black Sun symbol certainly IS related to Nazis. Just because it predates Nazism as a movement doesn't mean anything. I'm not saying that the image shouldn't be used in a game or even on the cover of a game, it depends on the context. But claiming it's got nothing to do with Nazis is bullshit.

Never claimed that. The adventure is set in WW II with the SAS and French Resistance fighting a bunch of occult assholes. I said my initial image was from the 19th Century... before the Nazis existed. I did not claim the symbol of the Black Sun was not a nazi symbol. :)

In the part you quoted, you are literally saying "19th century not related to the nazis".

squire, I think he means to say that the Nazi's have so culturally hijacked those symbols for evil to the point where even Hindis/Jains/Buddhists will get wary looks from conservatives over henna paints in public. It no longer seems to matter what they used to represent in the past.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 20, 2023, 07:52:42 AM

Quote from: Zalman on February 19, 2023, 08:36:18 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:45:45 PM
Look, you can argue about how there's a double standard of content policing with DTRPG, where a game like Men is banned, but Thirsty Sword Lesbians (which features the sword lesbians purging a restaurant of heterosexuals) is allowed to stay on and become a bestseller.

But there is NO question in my mind that this game "Men" was written not as an RPG but as a POLITICAL MESSAGE. And that it's intent was to be offensive.

Wait, are you suggesting that the intent of Thirsty Sword Lesbians is otherwise?

No, I'm suggesting that BOTH are a politicization of gaming, and products whose appeal will largely be to buy them to show virtue with your own 'tribe' and to "own" the other side, and therefore I think that both are stupid and contrary to what I want the hobby to be about. I don't want a hobby full of conservative propagandism any more than I want one full of leftist propagandism. I want a hobby that is about the games.

I'm also saying that one of these two products was suspended, while the other was allowed, and that I recognize that this is a serious problem in their moderation policies, but that this is a SEPARATE issue from what I'm arguing.

I agree, both products are political. IMHO both should be allowed to exist.

I'm not worried about the hobby becoming only propaganda from either side or both even. Most people don't buy that stuff.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 20, 2023, 09:32:29 AM
Well, I guess the first question to ask is "which is more viable, trying to get OBS to be more fair, or build enough interest in something like Big Geek Emporium to make it a viable competitor?"

Re: Getting OBS to be more fair.- For this to happen you would need a lot of creators AND consumers boycotting them. Since creators are too worried about their income and consumers about their convenience this will not happen and we will get what we fucking deserve.

Re: BGE a viable competitor.- Since creators won't sell there because it might impact their bottom line and consumers won't buy there because it's not convenient this won't happen either, and we will get what we fucking deserve.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 20, 2023, 07:41:32 AM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 10:38:19 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:49:51 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 11:57:44 AM
Well after five days of reviewing my little adventure about fighting strange occult bad guys during WW II, I got an answer from the assholes at DTRPG (I paraphrase):

Everything is cool with the adventure, although they suggested I change the cover which had a graphic image of the Black Sun (from the 19th Century not related to Nazis)

The Black Sun symbol certainly IS related to Nazis. Just because it predates Nazism as a movement doesn't mean anything. I'm not saying that the image shouldn't be used in a game or even on the cover of a game, it depends on the context. But claiming it's got nothing to do with Nazis is bullshit.

Never claimed that. The adventure is set in WW II with the SAS and French Resistance fighting a bunch of occult assholes. I said my initial image was from the 19th Century... before the Nazis existed. I did not claim the symbol of the Black Sun was not a nazi symbol. :)

In the part you quoted, you are literally saying "19th century not related to the nazis".

From the context of my statement, do you really think I was implying in any way that the symbol of the Black Sun was NOT part of the Nazis? Or was I just saying that the original picture was from the 19th century (before there were Nazis) and therefore not a Nazi image? If you want to see it that way so be it. You are going to believe what you want. If you want to believe I am some sort of Jewish Nazi apologist... SMH.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 20, 2023, 12:04:09 PM

Re: BGE a viable competitor.- Since creators won't sell there because it might impact their bottom line and consumers won't buy there because it's not convenient this won't happen either, and we will get what we fucking deserve.

I get your point, and a lot of folks (frankly, the majority at least for the foreseeable future) will do as you say. Personally, the only reason for me to default to DTRPG is the "single source" convenience. I.e., if creator Bob sells stuff on multiple storefronts, I have to keep track of what I bought and where lest I double purchase things. If they sell it on DTRPG, that might be the easiest place for me to look. If Bob sells Naughty Concepts everywhere _but_ DTRPG, the problem resolves itself.

I actually ran into this problem with some non-RPG gaming content. A vendor sells their stuff through warehouse23 (where I think they get a bigger cut) and one of the OBS storefronts. This tripped me up as I couldn't figure out why I couldn't find something I knew I owned (I wanted a copy on my travel laptop).

You might, over time, be able to fix this by having a third website that allows you to see your content across DTRPG, w23, BGE, etc. There are obvious headaches with this though (you either have to hand your login details to the 3rd site to generate the master list or jump through hoops).

This is, as I think has been stated upthread, simply one instance of the whole parallel economy concept that the (mostly) right leaning folks are having to do to get around left wing dominance of large parts of our economy.

When DTRPG started out I am quite sure that all the same criticism was present. But I loved them! They had a great attitude, they were pro-gamer, and were incredibly helpful whether you were a buyer or a seller... even if their website was not state-of-the-art and cutting edge! Now they have become woke-wankers treating people unfairly and unjustly -- changing contract terms on the fly because... of reasons. I will not do any further business with them unless their business practices change. And even then not likely.

As for BGE they are making great efforts to restore some small level of fairness to the system. That is more important to me than whatever it is that drive sheep to follow the herd to DTRPG. Be part of the problem if you want. Have a nice day!

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 20, 2023, 12:26:07 PM
As for BGE they are making great efforts to restore some small level of fairness to the system. That is more important to me than whatever it is that drive sheep to follow the herd to DTRPG. Be part of the problem if you want.

Same here...The only way BGE can thrive is if we start making an effort to put material up there. As for DT I'm going to do my best to buy from BGE where possible or go directly to the publisher. I've backed a load of kickstarters so these will mostly be filled by DT. So I'm stuck with those.

Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians and the Men RPG

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 20, 2023, 07:52:42 AM
No, I'm suggesting that BOTH are a politicization of gaming, and products whose appeal will largely be to buy them to show virtue with your own 'tribe' and to "own" the other side, and therefore I think that both are stupid and contrary to what I want the hobby to be about. I don't want a hobby full of conservative propagandism any more than I want one full of leftist propagandism. I want a hobby that is about the games.

I haven't read or played either of these games myself, so some caveats here.

There are games that people only buy or read as a statement, and that aren't fun to play on their own - even by a narrow segment of the audience. As an example, even among left-leaning storygaming circles, I've never seen anyone playing the Steal Away Jordan RPG - though it was critically acclaimed. The author genuinely did run playtests, but I also think the buzz around it was purely on the political statement, not how fun people found the gameplay. I think F.A.T.A.L. and Racial Holy War are similar.

However, there are also games that are played and enjoyed by a small segment of the gaming audience. White Wolf has put out a lot of intentionally edgy RPGs that as far as I can tell, their fans genuinely enjoy playing. My impression is that the same is true of the World of Gor RPG, for example. I'm not interested in those - but I have enjoyed some RPGs that have been called edgy like Blue Rose, Macho Women With Guns, and Bluebeard's Bride. While I haven't played Thirsty Sword Lesbians, I've been at gaming meetups where it was played - and I have friends who have played it. As far as I can tell, they were enjoying themselves.

I have almost no knowledge of the Men RPG, so I don't know where it would land. If there are people who would genuinely enjoy playing it, I think that makes it different from a pure statement.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 20, 2023, 12:34:54 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 20, 2023, 12:26:07 PM
As for BGE they are making great efforts to restore some small level of fairness to the system. That is more important to me than whatever it is that drive sheep to follow the herd to DTRPG. Be part of the problem if you want.

Same here...The only way BGE can thrive is if we start making an effort to put material up there. As for DT I'm going to do my best to buy from BGE where possible or go directly to the publisher. I've backed a load of kickstarters so these will mostly be filled by DT. So I'm stuck with those.

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 20, 2023, 12:59:26 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 20, 2023, 12:34:54 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 20, 2023, 12:26:07 PM
As for BGE they are making great efforts to restore some small level of fairness to the system. That is more important to me than whatever it is that drive sheep to follow the herd to DTRPG. Be part of the problem if you want.

Same here...The only way BGE can thrive is if we start making an effort to put material up there. As for DT I'm going to do my best to buy from BGE where possible or go directly to the publisher. I've backed a load of kickstarters so these will mostly be filled by DT. So I'm stuck with those.

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

Indeed... And I think we (or most of us did) drop the ball after the 'hostile marketing' thing was announced originally. I mean not many people acted on it (myself included). I have a load of weapon silhouettes drawn and I'll pop up for there cheap (for a start).

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 20, 2023, 12:59:26 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 20, 2023, 12:34:54 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 20, 2023, 12:26:07 PM
As for BGE they are making great efforts to restore some small level of fairness to the system. That is more important to me than whatever it is that drive sheep to follow the herd to DTRPG. Be part of the problem if you want.

Same here...The only way BGE can thrive is if we start making an effort to put material up there. As for DT I'm going to do my best to buy from BGE where possible or go directly to the publisher. I've backed a load of kickstarters so these will mostly be filled by DT. So I'm stuck with those.

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

It does... but its also important to not start the journey of a thousand miles wearing lousy shoes and no compass/map to make sure you don't end up with aching feet after walking ten miles in the wrong direction.

For an example of a parallel economy product that's actually succeeding enough to put up television ads mocking the Left's censorship and come to their site, take a look at Rumble in the field of video streaming. They have from the beginning been actively courting people to cross post to it, even if it wouldn't be banned on YouTube so as to increase the reach of content creator videos beyond where they'd normally reach.

Yes, they're pro-free speech, but they haven't been relying on THAT as the sole reason for content creators to make the switch. Their primary draw is an alternate market who has unplugged from YouTube over its censorship.

Frankly, if a site like Big Geek Emporium wants to possibly challenge OBS in the field of RPG sales, then the third thing (after getting a name that doesn't imply anything about its customer base and fixing their user interface*) would be to court any and every RPG publisher with more favorable terms than OBS offers. Make it something where, if they haven't gone OBS exclusive, throwing their products up on an alternate site to reach an alternate market is a no-brainer. Once you get enough traffic moving then whether or not to stay OBS exclusive becomes something the exclusive publishers will be willing to consider.

Free Speech on its own will only get you a few diehard publishers and those deliberately seeking to be that edgy fringe that only appeals to maybe 10% of an already small pie. The majority are going to be asking "What's in it for me?" and a competitor to OBS needs to have an appealing answer to that question.

* ETA: another thing to add to the list of things to add to the user interface would be to add a NSFW filter that's easy to find. The first time I went there there was a cover with a nude in a mask (without even a particular reason related to the content that I was able to discern) at the top of page two of the products list which is all sorts of problematic if you get any prudish parents contacting web hosts about the lack of content warnings (or wokies pretending to be ones just to cause issues).

Basically, they just cut out a whole section of potential customers because some edgelord wanted a little softcore porn on their cover to get attention.

If I ever get around to writing my own RPG, something lots of us think about, it will go on Big Geek Emporium.  Period. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 20, 2023, 01:50:32 PM
If I ever get around to writing my own RPG, something lots of us think about, it will go on Big Geek Emporium.  Period.

It doesn't sound like any of the really racy ones have landed anywhere at all.  If BGE is hosting Fun Rape Adventures: Into the Dungeon and maybe Sensational Sonnenrad: Lighting Weapons of the Fifth Space Reich, then I would believe that they successfully resisted a pressure campaign.  Until then, I'll just assume that no one has come by to shake their tree too hard yet.

DTR hasn't banned Pundit or Macris, and just mentioning these guys on reddit is like a 30% chance to summon some antifa in black bloc to call you names and scanning your post history to see if you mentioned your real identity, so that they can see if they can call your boss and wreck you IRL.  So I don't think that they are doing political activism as much as bowing to pressure or in some cases responding to deliberate challenges that are meant to stir shit up.  I dislike that they banned OP's stuff based on one butthurt bitch, but I don't have any reason to believe BGE would absolutely not do that either.

Quote from: Venka on February 20, 2023, 02:14:47 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 20, 2023, 01:50:32 PM
If I ever get around to writing my own RPG, something lots of us think about, it will go on Big Geek Emporium.  Period.

It doesn't sound like any of the really racy ones have landed anywhere at all.  If BGE is hosting Fun Rape Adventures: Into the Dungeon and maybe Sensational Sonnenrad: Lighting Weapons of the Fifth Space Reich, then I would believe that they successfully resisted a pressure campaign.  Until then, I'll just assume that no one has come by to shake their tree too hard yet.

DTR hasn't banned Pundit or Macris, and just mentioning these guys on reddit is like a 30% chance to summon some antifa in black bloc to call you names and scanning your post history to see if you mentioned your real identity, so that they can see if they can call your boss and wreck you IRL.  So I don't think that they are doing political activism as much as bowing to pressure or in some cases responding to deliberate challenges that are meant to stir shit up.  I dislike that they banned OP's stuff based on one butthurt bitch, but I don't have any reason to believe BGE would absolutely not do that either.

It has more to do with me watching Biggus Geekus podcasts and having some minor interactions with Randy and Joe when they come on the Legion of Myth Friday Night Chill Stream.  It's not much, but the feeling of them being, "one of us," is strong with them. 

It's not about money.  It would be about sticking close to the dudes I trust and know.

Moot point.  I'm no closer to writing my own RPG than I am to buying a sailing yacht. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 20, 2023, 01:50:32 PM
If I ever get around to writing my own RPG, something lots of us think about, it will go on Big Geek Emporium.  Period.

Bingo. I will not do business with people who hate me. At least not unless they actually get to know me. Then they might have a good reason!

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 19, 2023, 08:39:01 AM

Quote from: Zalman on February 19, 2023, 08:36:18 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:45:45 PM
Look, you can argue about how there's a double standard of content policing with DTRPG, where a game like Men is banned, but Thirsty Sword Lesbians (which features the sword lesbians purging a restaurant of heterosexuals) is allowed to stay on and become a bestseller.

But there is NO question in my mind that this game "Men" was written not as an RPG but as a POLITICAL MESSAGE. And that it's intent was to be offensive.

Wait, are you suggesting that the intent of Thirsty Sword Lesbians is otherwise?

The game has 3 central design tenets:

1) Virtue signal.
2) Piss off "the right people."
3) Make virtually no money, but still win awards.

It takes a couple of seconds of Googling to bring up counter-evidence: https://twitter.com/EvilHatOfficial/status/1448774890266390533; then, a couple of minutes of figuring out Twitter search syntax to get more: https://twitter.com/EvilHatOfficial/status/1463599029212880901

According to the publisher, Thirsty Sword Lesbians sold over 13k copies in the first 3-6 months after the kickstarter, which is grossing 195k+; grossing over $500k in the first year including the second $100k Kickstarter.

Another $40k+ gross in first quarter 2022? https://twitter.com/EvilHatOfficial/status/1516871792140308480

That's not "virtual no money".

Quote from: Naburimannu on February 20, 2023, 05:02:42 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 19, 2023, 08:39:01 AM

Quote from: Zalman on February 19, 2023, 08:36:18 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:45:45 PM
Look, you can argue about how there's a double standard of content policing with DTRPG, where a game like Men is banned, but Thirsty Sword Lesbians (which features the sword lesbians purging a restaurant of heterosexuals) is allowed to stay on and become a bestseller.

But there is NO question in my mind that this game "Men" was written not as an RPG but as a POLITICAL MESSAGE. And that it's intent was to be offensive.

Wait, are you suggesting that the intent of Thirsty Sword Lesbians is otherwise?

The game has 3 central design tenets:

1) Virtue signal.
2) Piss off "the right people."
3) Make virtually no money, but still win awards.

It takes a couple of seconds of Googling to bring up counter-evidence: https://twitter.com/EvilHatOfficial/status/1448774890266390533; then, a couple of minutes of figuring out Twitter search syntax to get more: https://twitter.com/EvilHatOfficial/status/1463599029212880901

According to the publisher, Thirsty Sword Lesbians sold over 13k copies in the first 3-6 months after the kickstarter, which is grossing 195k+; grossing over $500k in the first year including the second $100k Kickstarter.

Another $40k+ gross in first quarter 2022? https://twitter.com/EvilHatOfficial/status/1516871792140308480

That's not "virtual no money".

Minus all the expenses involved on the making, we know Coyote & Crow made 1 million on KS and still the developer was begging for more sales because it's not how much gross you make, it's how much net you have left after costs and taxes.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 20, 2023, 05:54:26 PM
Minus all the expenses involved on the making, we know Coyote & Crow made 1 million on KS and still the developer was begging for more sales because it's not how much gross you make, it's how much net you have left after costs and taxes.

Yeah, a lot of that cash is getting hoovered up on wages, etc.

I know it did well but does anyone really play it? it sounds so naff.

It really shouldn't surprise anyone that a product like TSL would make money. It's expected to earn money regardless of any actual merit. Much like Black Lives Matter rakes in billions of dollars while demonstrably getting people killed and making society and everyone else worse off. The best thing you can do is grift on the anti-White, anti-Male hatred of this cult and use the money to make actual quality stuff.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 20, 2023, 06:00:29 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 20, 2023, 05:54:26 PM
Minus all the expenses involved on the making, we know Coyote & Crow made 1 million on KS and still the developer was begging for more sales because it's not how much gross you make, it's how much net you have left after costs and taxes.

Yeah, a lot of that cash is getting hoovered up on wages, etc.

I know it did well but does anyone really play it? it sounds so naff.

I think so. I've at least read through Coyote & Crow. I feel the learning curve for the setting is difficult, so I suspect there are a bunch of people who will try it, then get tired of it and switch back to something easier. But that's just a guess. There was one Coyote & Crow event at DunDraCon yesterday afternoon, which isn't much of a sample but it's at least one point.

There were five Thirsty Sword Lesbian events at Big Bad Con 2022, and a friend of mine said that their event was a lot of fun.

I haven't tried either game, but there is a market segment that seems to enjoy them. Different people have different tastes in games.

Quote from: jhkim on February 20, 2023, 06:23:39 PM
Different people have different tastes in games.

That's true of course... I've never really liked comedy games myself.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 20, 2023, 12:18:39 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 20, 2023, 07:41:32 AM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 10:38:19 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:49:51 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 11:57:44 AM
Well after five days of reviewing my little adventure about fighting strange occult bad guys during WW II, I got an answer from the assholes at DTRPG (I paraphrase):

Everything is cool with the adventure, although they suggested I change the cover which had a graphic image of the Black Sun (from the 19th Century not related to Nazis)

The Black Sun symbol certainly IS related to Nazis. Just because it predates Nazism as a movement doesn't mean anything. I'm not saying that the image shouldn't be used in a game or even on the cover of a game, it depends on the context. But claiming it's got nothing to do with Nazis is bullshit.

Never claimed that. The adventure is set in WW II with the SAS and French Resistance fighting a bunch of occult assholes. I said my initial image was from the 19th Century... before the Nazis existed. I did not claim the symbol of the Black Sun was not a nazi symbol. :)

In the part you quoted, you are literally saying "19th century not related to the nazis".

From the context of my statement, do you really think I was implying in any way that the symbol of the Black Sun was NOT part of the Nazis? Or was I just saying that the original picture was from the 19th century (before there were Nazis) and therefore not a Nazi image? If you want to see it that way so be it. You are going to believe what you want. If you want to believe I am some sort of Jewish Nazi apologist... SMH.

Just because you put it on the cover (and not knowing anything about the content itself) I wouldn't immediately assume you were a Nazi just because of having that symbol on the cover. What I am saying, though is that claiming it was "not a Nazi image" (given that the Nazi's major symbols were ALL from historical sources that predated them, including the swastika and the sigull runes of the SS, the two most famous ones) is a pretty poor attempt at justification.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 20, 2023, 12:34:54 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 20, 2023, 12:26:07 PM
As for BGE they are making great efforts to restore some small level of fairness to the system. That is more important to me than whatever it is that drive sheep to follow the herd to DTRPG. Be part of the problem if you want.

Same here...The only way BGE can thrive is if we start making an effort to put material up there. As for DT I'm going to do my best to buy from BGE where possible or go directly to the publisher. I've backed a load of kickstarters so these will mostly be filled by DT. So I'm stuck with those.

From what I understand, BGE is planning to upgrade its website and services, and maybe then it will become more effective. I'm not a publisher, but not a single publisher of my products that I've mentioned this to has decided to jump on the bandwagon at this time, they just don't think that in BGE's current state it would be worth it. But like I said, that can still change in the future, if they make some upgrades.

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FdORJLkf0wGVI4%2F200.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=11e8cd8dc757ac2261c66b5215f25ec7a03bfbff08c2b7f983af31dc04aef2f1&ipo=images)

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:45:45 PM
there is NO question in my mind that this game "Men" was written not as an RPG but as a POLITICAL MESSAGE. And that it's intent was to be offensive.
And that Red Room published it to try to court controversy. And that when DTRPG banned it, they did literally engage in "hostile marketing". 

Shit, when DTRPG came up with the term I felt it was something of an invention. And more, I criticized it as dangerous, because it suggests that publicly complaining in any way about your RPG being suspended counts as "hostile marketing".
But here, the Red Room did EXACTLY what they were saying 'hostile marketers' would do. Before the game was banned they were tweeting stuff along the lines of "we'll see how long it takes before DTRPG bans this one!", and once the game was banned they were using that to sell their other products and promote BGE.

Again, you can argue about how the policy could be abused or taken too far so that any criticism of DTRPG is cause for suspension, and you can argue that the general policy of suspending products is unfair because DTRPG allows all sorts of atrocious content from the left but suspends products for atrocious content from the right.

But you can't actually deny that the Red Room knew exactly what the fuck it was doing here, and was doing exactly what DTRPG had made the hostile marketing policy, and which I will now admit I was wrong to previously wave off as a fictitious boogeyman.

And this bugs me. Why? Because now the next time some product is suspended for bad reasons, DTRPG will be able to claim the "hostile marketing" defense and the fact that some people were engaging in hostile marketing will muddy the water.

Yeah, after looking into it I feel fucking played. It's just another event which proves the opposition's point, and if this keeps happening then maybe they were right all along.

Quote from: Naburimannu on February 20, 2023, 05:02:42 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 19, 2023, 08:39:01 AM
The game has 3 central design tenets:

1) Virtue signal.
2) Piss off "the right people."
3) Make virtually no money, but still win awards.

It takes a couple of seconds of Googling to bring up counter-evidence: https://twitter.com/EvilHatOfficial/status/1448774890266390533; then, a couple of minutes of figuring out Twitter search syntax to get more: https://twitter.com/EvilHatOfficial/status/1463599029212880901

According to the publisher, Thirsty Sword Lesbians sold over 13k copies in the first 3-6 months after the kickstarter, which is grossing 195k+; grossing over $500k in the first year including the second $100k Kickstarter.

Another $40k+ gross in first quarter 2022? https://twitter.com/EvilHatOfficial/status/1516871792140308480

That's not "virtual no money".

Some have accepted the mantra of "get woke go broke" so fervently that they're in complete denial when virtue signaling and pissing off the 'right' people makes bank, even when they profit from the same kind of outrage marketing. And anyone saying this isn't a lot of sales/money when it comes to RPGs is just straightlining copium.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 11:57:44 AM
Well after five days of reviewing my little adventure about fighting strange occult bad guys during WW II, I got an answer from the assholes at DTRPG (I paraphrase):

Everything is cool with the adventure, although they suggested I change the cover which had a graphic image of the Black Sun (from the 19th Century not related to Nazis) containing a skull in the center with runes on it (almost like something you would see on a Ukrainian Army uniform - egad where are my pearls). I already did that so its moot.

However, now they are accusing me of violating the 'exclusivity' agreement by posting other products elsewhere; products that were never posted on DTRPG. They insist I pull everything off of every other website until the exclusivity period ends on July 21, 2023.

So I am just going to ignore them. They have no right to demand that. If they want to ban me then so be it. They are probably going to do so whatever I do. I suppose I should be flattered that they have put so much effort into screwing with me. I never thought I was worth the trouble! I just wish I had done something worthy of being banned!!!! I suspect it has nothing to do with me and more to do with ITCHIO and BGE becoming more of a threat (I have been posting all my new stuff on those two websites).

Maybe there is still time to produce something incredibly offensive and posting it on DTRPG before they ban me? Any suggestions?

Dude, just take the win.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 18, 2023, 01:06:20 PM
I have to say, if you're asking for suggestions, that DTRPG seems willing to be more or less reasonable in this particular case, especially if the book has been cleared (and, although I see no reason to object to the cover, you said you took care of that already).

It will never be enough for some folks, and they're no less radical than the ideologues they oppose.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 17, 2023, 01:01:48 PM
I just had another thought... Is Red Room doing a Kanye West??? Being so provocative that they cut him???? Maybe I should do something like that. I have 4 and a half months before my exclusivity clause is dead, and until then they have me throttled down to zero. HMMMMM?

This sort of pushing boundaries out of spite is exactly why #DTRPG has hostile marketing clauses in the first place, and you'd be the second person to justify it. As for pulling a Ye, you don't have anywhere near the clout required to be 'successful' at it.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on February 21, 2023, 04:17:01 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:45:45 PM
there is NO question in my mind that this game "Men" was written not as an RPG but as a POLITICAL MESSAGE. And that it's intent was to be offensive.
And that Red Room published it to try to court controversy. And that when DTRPG banned it, they did literally engage in "hostile marketing". 

Shit, when DTRPG came up with the term I felt it was something of an invention. And more, I criticized it as dangerous, because it suggests that publicly complaining in any way about your RPG being suspended counts as "hostile marketing".
But here, the Red Room did EXACTLY what they were saying 'hostile marketers' would do. Before the game was banned they were tweeting stuff along the lines of "we'll see how long it takes before DTRPG bans this one!", and once the game was banned they were using that to sell their other products and promote BGE.

Again, you can argue about how the policy could be abused or taken too far so that any criticism of DTRPG is cause for suspension, and you can argue that the general policy of suspending products is unfair because DTRPG allows all sorts of atrocious content from the left but suspends products for atrocious content from the right.

But you can't actually deny that the Red Room knew exactly what the fuck it was doing here, and was doing exactly what DTRPG had made the hostile marketing policy, and which I will now admit I was wrong to previously wave off as a fictitious boogeyman.

And this bugs me. Why? Because now the next time some product is suspended for bad reasons, DTRPG will be able to claim the "hostile marketing" defense and the fact that some people were engaging in hostile marketing will muddy the water.

Yeah, after looking into it I feel fucking played. It's just another event which proves the opposition's point, and if this keeps happening then maybe they were right all along.

Totally, it's not like Thirsty Sword Lesbians is the exact same but on the opposite way. AND it's allowed to exist and sell.

If only those evul right wingers would let us trample them nothing of the rules made to trample them would be neccessary...

You, Pundit, and everyone else taking this position are the sort that goes: "I'm for free speech but".

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 21, 2023, 04:49:56 PM

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on February 21, 2023, 04:17:01 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:45:45 PM
there is NO question in my mind that this game "Men" was written not as an RPG but as a POLITICAL MESSAGE. And that it's intent was to be offensive.
And that Red Room published it to try to court controversy. And that when DTRPG banned it, they did literally engage in "hostile marketing". 

Shit, when DTRPG came up with the term I felt it was something of an invention. And more, I criticized it as dangerous, because it suggests that publicly complaining in any way about your RPG being suspended counts as "hostile marketing".
But here, the Red Room did EXACTLY what they were saying 'hostile marketers' would do. Before the game was banned they were tweeting stuff along the lines of "we'll see how long it takes before DTRPG bans this one!", and once the game was banned they were using that to sell their other products and promote BGE.

Again, you can argue about how the policy could be abused or taken too far so that any criticism of DTRPG is cause for suspension, and you can argue that the general policy of suspending products is unfair because DTRPG allows all sorts of atrocious content from the left but suspends products for atrocious content from the right.

But you can't actually deny that the Red Room knew exactly what the fuck it was doing here, and was doing exactly what DTRPG had made the hostile marketing policy, and which I will now admit I was wrong to previously wave off as a fictitious boogeyman.

And this bugs me. Why? Because now the next time some product is suspended for bad reasons, DTRPG will be able to claim the "hostile marketing" defense and the fact that some people were engaging in hostile marketing will muddy the water.

Yeah, after looking into it I feel fucking played. It's just another event which proves the opposition's point, and if this keeps happening then maybe they were right all along.

Totally, it's not like Thirsty Sword Lesbians is the exact same but on the opposite way. AND it's allowed to exist and sell.

If only those evul right wingers would let us trample them nothing of the rules made to trample them would be neccessary...

You, Pundit, and everyone else taking this position are the sort that goes: "I'm for free speech but".

There is always that big... BUTT!!! Oh well. whatever.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 21, 2023, 04:49:56 PM
...

Totally, it's not like Thirsty Sword Lesbians is the exact same but on the opposite way. AND it's allowed to exist and sell.

If only those evul right wingers would let us trample them nothing of the rules made to trample them would be neccessary...

You, Pundit, and everyone else taking this position are the sort that goes: "I'm for free speech but".

My take is this:

DTRPG: "We're gonna ban the fuck out of you for doing x." (Everyone knows that this will be applied in a total double standard fashion, one way only.)

RedRoom: "Look everyone; we're doing x!"

DTRPG: "Banned!!! Because you did x... ( + our own double standards that are well known throughout the hobby)."

(https://media.tenor.com/12dYGThNgzQAAAAM/huh-what.gif)

What did people think would happen? Honestly...

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 20, 2023, 12:26:07 PM
When DTRPG started out I am quite sure that all the same criticism was present. But I loved them! They had a great attitude, they were pro-gamer, and were incredibly helpful whether you were a buyer or a seller... even if their website was not state-of-the-art and cutting edge! Now they have become woke-wankers treating people unfairly and unjustly -- changing contract terms on the fly because... of reasons. I will not do any further business with them unless their business practices change. And even then not likely.

When DTRPG was starting up, they weren't trying to enter an established marketplace. It was basically them and RPGNow. A very tiny handful of publishers sold their own products in PDF form from their own primitive storefronts, and that was basically it. That's still basically true, actually, but in the ~20 years since DTRPG started up (and absorbed RPGNow), they've become wildly successful. It's much harder now to enter the market, because there's basically a quasi-monopolistic juggernaut to fight.

And, I'm sorry to say, right now BGE offers less than those early fledgling companies did twenty years ago.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 20, 2023, 12:26:07 PMAs for BGE they are making great efforts to restore some small level of fairness to the system. That is more important to me than whatever it is that drive sheep to follow the herd to DTRPG. Be part of the problem if you want. Have a nice day!

"Whatever it is that drive sheep to follow the herd to DTRPG" isn't some mystery. They have what people want to buy. That's not true of BGE. You can scream about sheep and whatever else you want to, but what are people supposed to do, buy stuff they don't want?

I just spent some time on BGE. I couldn't find one thing I wanted to buy. I'm not saying there's nothing anyone would want to buy - I know some people here either do are planning to sell there. But there isn't much there with... appeal, shall we say. Some assets and adventures, mostly. A very small handful of core books for extremely indie games I've never heard of and couldn't care less about. One or two OSR products I've at least heard of... at least I think so. It's sometimes had to keep OSR products straight, because so many of them have names that are just mild variations on each other. I think Dungeons and Delvers was literally the only product I found that stood out to me.

And that's from what I could see. Every time I tried to flip to another page of results, the page would never load. basically all I could do was browse through categories and look at the first page - if there even was more than one page of results, which was rare. But all sites break from time to time, so I can't really hold that against them too bad.

I want to be very clear: I'm not condemning BGE. If it succeeds, great. I hope it does! But right now, I also can't condemn anyone who wants to... actually buy stuff. Because basically, with BGE right now, in it's current state? They can't.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 21, 2023, 05:08:17 PM
There is always that big... BUTT!!! Oh well. whatever.

Talking of, been getting back into minis painting. Love these printed resin minis.  ;D
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/669313909332901921/1076851602515828786/20230219_130217.jpg

Quote from: S'mon on February 21, 2023, 06:00:00 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 21, 2023, 05:08:17 PM
There is always that big... BUTT!!! Oh well. whatever.

(snip!)

Talking of, been getting back into minis painting. Love these printed resin minis.  ;D

That picture is kinda NSFW. Does this forum have a spoiler tag?

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 21, 2023, 06:55:37 PM

Quote from: S'mon on February 21, 2023, 06:00:00 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 21, 2023, 05:08:17 PM
There is always that big... BUTT!!! Oh well. whatever.

(snip!)

Talking of, been getting back into minis painting. Love these printed resin minis.  ;D

That picture is kinda NSFW. Does this forum have a spoiler tag?

I can't see one. I've replaced pic w link.   :-[

Quote from: S'mon on February 21, 2023, 06:57:56 PM
I can't see one. I've replaced pic w link.   :-[

I'm sorry if I came across as rude. It's definitely a very nice mini, it's just that the missus kind of gave me the stinkeye...  ;)

Ha-ha, censorship!

My real problem with all this censorship buzz is that these woke scolds, actually, more often than not have an effect. For example, Drivethru will act on a few complaints, and as we've seen some are bogus just targeting people that are not liked by certain individuals. This will often cause 'self-censorship' through fear of income loss. Thus stifling a person's right to create we've seen it for Venger, GJ, LoTFP, etc.

Another perfect example is the whole Mythic Polynesia debacle. We still don't know exactly what happened and why the product is no longer on DT. My gut tells me that they took it down themselves but left it up on their own website probably hoping that they could sell it through word of mouth, etc. On DT it was just gaining too much heat in the comments and was keeping it alive on sites like the Pub, Twitter and RPG.net. I could be wrong.

Regardless, I think this will have a profound effect on TDM (and possibly other companies who've watched this unfold). For one, a body of work that they were obviously proud of, and put a lot of effort into, has effectively been woke'd from the public eye and swept under the carpet. Any future releases from them will now be walking on eggshells. And god knows how much more work they will have to put in now just to make sure it doesn't bother a few bedwetters. Will they be hiring sensitivity consultants? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I mean Puffin is now altering classic works from Roald Dahl just to not hurt feefees. What's next?

Quote from: S'mon on February 21, 2023, 06:57:56 PM

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 21, 2023, 06:55:37 PM

Quote from: S'mon on February 21, 2023, 06:00:00 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 21, 2023, 05:08:17 PM
There is always that big... BUTT!!! Oh well. whatever.

(snip!)

Talking of, been getting back into minis painting. Love these printed resin minis.  ;D

That picture is kinda NSFW. Does this forum have a spoiler tag?

I can't see one. I've replaced pic w link.   :-[

Anybody want the link to the mini?  NSFW, FYI.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/1016764645/female-human-paladin-pinup-dnd-miniature?click_key=f622262b96cee07c5d31b6b2dc0a4e3d5bc74fee%3A1016764645&click_sum=9555b090&ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=nude+mini+warrior&ref=sr_gallery-2-1&organic_search_click=1&sts=1&from_search=1 (https://www.etsy.com/listing/1016764645/female-human-paladin-pinup-dnd-miniature?click_key=f622262b96cee07c5d31b6b2dc0a4e3d5bc74fee%3A1016764645&click_sum=9555b090&ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=nude+mini+warrior&ref=sr_gallery-2-1&organic_search_click=1&sts=1&from_search=1)

As for censorship.  DTRPG is allowed to do as they please.  It's their right.  Just know the Big Geek Emporium exists as a tiny, but hopefully growing alternative.

I'm just surprised that DTRPG and BGE exist and we're not all shopping on Amazon for game PDFs and books. 

I won't be happy until her nipples protrude through the cloth.

None of you have sculpted a feminine penis held against the thigh by that strap?

Bigots.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 21, 2023, 11:28:03 PM
None of you have sculpted a feminine penis held against the thigh by that strap?

Bigots.

Be the change you want to see in the world! Show us your hidden potential and sculpt the girthiest cock you can for the model!

Quote from: Hzilong on February 21, 2023, 11:39:27 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 21, 2023, 11:28:03 PM
None of you have sculpted a feminine penis held against the thigh by that strap?

Bigots.

Be the change you want to see in the world! Show us your hidden potential and sculpt the girthiest cock you can for the model!

You need to self report to your nearest re-education center comrade! ASAP!

(In case it's not obvious both me and Grognard are being sarcastic)

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 21, 2023, 11:49:30 PM

Quote from: Hzilong on February 21, 2023, 11:39:27 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 21, 2023, 11:28:03 PM
None of you have sculpted a feminine penis held against the thigh by that strap?

Bigots.

Be the change you want to see in the world! Show us your hidden potential and sculpt the girthiest cock you can for the model!

You need to self report to your nearest re-education center comrade! ASAP!

(In case it's not obvious both me and Grognard are being sarcastic)

Not me, bigot. I'm already reading up on penis sculpting.

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wKr0Xl7eqxs/RaCMtZOOkQI/AAAAAAAAAiE/9Q8NPxyUUVk/s400/Hand+-+Putty+Roll.jpg)

The most difficult part is keeping my fingers straight while handling a dong.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 22, 2023, 12:08:44 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 21, 2023, 11:49:30 PM

Quote from: Hzilong on February 21, 2023, 11:39:27 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 21, 2023, 11:28:03 PM
None of you have sculpted a feminine penis held against the thigh by that strap?

Bigots.

Be the change you want to see in the world! Show us your hidden potential and sculpt the girthiest cock you can for the model!

You need to self report to your nearest re-education center comrade! ASAP!

(In case it's not obvious both me and Grognard are being sarcastic)

Not me, bigot. I'm already reading up on penis sculpting.

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wKr0Xl7eqxs/RaCMtZOOkQI/AAAAAAAAAiE/9Q8NPxyUUVk/s400/Hand+-+Putty+Roll.jpg)

The most difficult part is keeping my fingers straight while handling a dong.

Damn, white size do you think the miniature is? That dong is bigger than it!

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 12:15:51 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 22, 2023, 12:08:44 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 21, 2023, 11:49:30 PM

Quote from: Hzilong on February 21, 2023, 11:39:27 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 21, 2023, 11:28:03 PM
None of you have sculpted a feminine penis held against the thigh by that strap?

Bigots.

Be the change you want to see in the world! Show us your hidden potential and sculpt the girthiest cock you can for the model!

You need to self report to your nearest re-education center comrade! ASAP!

(In case it's not obvious both me and Grognard are being sarcastic)

Not me, bigot. I'm already reading up on penis sculpting.

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wKr0Xl7eqxs/RaCMtZOOkQI/AAAAAAAAAiE/9Q8NPxyUUVk/s400/Hand+-+Putty+Roll.jpg)

The most difficult part is keeping my fingers straight while handling a dong.

Damn, white size do you think the miniature is? That dong is bigger than it!

I'm scaling the miniature up to life-sized for...reasons.


So quickly getting back on topic before the ban-hammer: If what a society truly cared about was protecting kids from sex, and minorities from ridicule, we'd just use existing tools to shield them.

Have a setting in browser where you can set all search parameters to kids mode, done. Set social media and such to bland vanilla no swears, and have a handy block feature for any unpleasant people you bump in to. Sorted.

Ah, but what it's actually about is control. You can tell this because the idea that somewhere, far from their eyes and ears, people could be having fun and doing and saying things they don't approve of, drives them crazy.

This thought keeps them up at night, wracked with concern that people in distant places are thinking differently to them.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 22, 2023, 12:24:19 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 12:15:51 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 22, 2023, 12:08:44 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 21, 2023, 11:49:30 PM

Quote from: Hzilong on February 21, 2023, 11:39:27 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 21, 2023, 11:28:03 PM
None of you have sculpted a feminine penis held against the thigh by that strap?

Bigots.

Be the change you want to see in the world! Show us your hidden potential and sculpt the girthiest cock you can for the model!

You need to self report to your nearest re-education center comrade! ASAP!

(In case it's not obvious both me and Grognard are being sarcastic)

Not me, bigot. I'm already reading up on penis sculpting.

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wKr0Xl7eqxs/RaCMtZOOkQI/AAAAAAAAAiE/9Q8NPxyUUVk/s400/Hand+-+Putty+Roll.jpg)

The most difficult part is keeping my fingers straight while handling a dong.

Damn, white size do you think the miniature is? That dong is bigger than it!

I'm scaling the miniature up to life-sized for...reasons.


So quickly getting back on topic before the ban-hammer: If what a society truly cared about was protecting kids from sex, and minorities from ridicule, we'd just use existing tools to shield them.

Have a setting in browser where you can set all search parameters to kids mode, done. Set social media and such to bland vanilla no swears, and have a handy block feature for any unpleasant people you bump in to. Sorted.

Ah, but what it's actually about is control. You can tell this because the idea that somewhere, far from their eyes and ears, people could be having fun and doing and saying things they don't approve of, drives them crazy.

This thought keeps them up at night, wracked with concern that people in distant places are thinking differently to them.

Yes, how dare we have wrongfun!

Or worst! How dare we have friendly banter at the table where I call my Irish descendant friend red heads have no soul and he calls me a wetback, and we all laugh.

It's all about control, about exercizing power over you and preventing you to play the games they don't approve in ways they don't approve with people they don't approve off.

As such everything just be censored in such a way it would make the Taliban happy because "Muh Male Gaze!"

Everything must resemble 21st century Portland because they are our moral betters...

As a Christian I refused to bend the knee to the satanic panic ninnies, I refuse to bend it to the New Puritans.

Quote from: ClusterFluster on February 21, 2023, 09:47:06 PM
I won't be happy until her nipples protrude through the cloth.

I bought the 'even more NSFW' version. Alternate views of my paint job, NSFW  ;D
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/669313909332901921/1076851602763305010/20230219_130203.jpg
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/669313909332901921/1076851602268356638/20230219_130228.jpg

Quote from: S'mon on February 22, 2023, 12:50:49 AM

Quote from: ClusterFluster on February 21, 2023, 09:47:06 PM
I won't be happy until her nipples protrude through the cloth.

I bought the 'even more NSFW' version. Alternate views of my paint job, NSFW  ;D
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/669313909332901921/1076851602763305010/20230219_130203.jpg
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/669313909332901921/1076851602268356638/20230219_130228.jpg

Miniature needs lipstick, toenail polish, sling-back heels (green stuff?), and a butterfly or snake tattoo somewhere... tastefully modest.  8) Otherwise quite lovely!

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 21, 2023, 04:49:56 PM
You, Pundit, and everyone else taking this position are the sort that goes: "I'm for free speech but".

I know it's a common aphorism to say that "whenever you say <thing, but>, everything before the "but" is a lie". But it's not really true. If I may be somewhat ironic for a moment.

I'm pretty damned close to a free speech absolutist. But. Just because a person has a right to say something, doesn't mean I'm not going to respond to it. If you call me a slur, I'm going to respond. If you stand on a street corner and preach to me about how the Knights Templar are conspiring with lizard people underneath Mt. Rushmore to keep us from realizing that the world is a space station created by God and the sun is an illusion*, I'm going to call you a fucking moron. And if you act like an provocative edgelord, expect people to treat you like a provocative edgelord.

Freedom of speech and thought cuts both ways. I am absolutely for freedom of speech and thought. I am very much against people who think that those things mean that they can waltz through life being an idiot or an asshole and deflect any criticism about their idiocy or assholishness as "but I have the right to say those things!". Yes, you do. That's not in question. So what?

*That's... more or less how I understand an actual existing conspiracy theory to run. I made up the Mt. Rushmore part, but it's a thing. I went down a rabbit hole of Youtube videos about it a while back. Apparently sunspots in camera lenses are signs of the end time because the satellites or breaking down, or something.

Quote from: Opaopajr on February 22, 2023, 05:59:44 AM

Quote from: S'mon on February 22, 2023, 12:50:49 AM

Quote from: ClusterFluster on February 21, 2023, 09:47:06 PM
I won't be happy until her nipples protrude through the cloth.

I bought the 'even more NSFW' version. Alternate views of my paint job, NSFW  ;D
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/669313909332901921/1076851602763305010/20230219_130203.jpg
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/669313909332901921/1076851602268356638/20230219_130228.jpg

Miniature needs lipstick, toenail polish, sling-back heels (green stuff?), and a butterfly or snake tattoo somewhere... tastefully modest.  8) Otherwise quite lovely!

Now we're talking!

Quote from: S'mon on February 22, 2023, 12:50:49 AM

Quote from: ClusterFluster on February 21, 2023, 09:47:06 PM
I won't be happy until her nipples protrude through the cloth.

I bought the 'even more NSFW' version. Alternate views of my paint job, NSFW  ;D
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/669313909332901921/1076851602763305010/20230219_130203.jpg
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/669313909332901921/1076851602268356638/20230219_130228.jpg

Greetings!

Ahh, a gentleman of culture and refined taste! ;D

Yes, my friend, I too, have the same fine miniature!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Bruwulf on February 22, 2023, 07:55:38 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 21, 2023, 04:49:56 PM
You, Pundit, and everyone else taking this position are the sort that goes: "I'm for free speech but".

I know it's a common aphorism to say that "whenever you say <thing, but>, everything before the "but" is a lie". But it's not really true. If I may be somewhat ironic for a moment.

I'm pretty damned close to a free speech absolutist. But. Just because a person has a right to say something, doesn't mean I'm not going to respond to it. If you call me a slur, I'm going to respond. If you stand on a street corner and preach to me about how the Knights Templar are conspiring with lizard people underneath Mt. Rushmore to keep us from realizing that the world is a space station created by God and the sun is an illusion*, I'm going to call you a fucking moron. And if you act like an provocative edgelord, expect people to treat you like a provocative edgelord.

Freedom of speech and thought cuts both ways. I am absolutely for freedom of speech and thought. I am very much against people who think that those things mean that they can waltz through life being an idiot or an asshole and deflect any criticism about their idiocy or assholishness as "but I have the right to say those things!". Yes, you do. That's not in question. So what?

*That's... more or less how I understand an actual existing conspiracy theory to run. I made up the Mt. Rushmore part, but it's a thing. I went down a rabbit hole of Youtube videos about it a while back. Apparently sunspots in camera lenses are signs of the end time because the satellites or breaking down, or something.

Freedom of Speech does not means freedom from the consequences of your speech. You have a right to say whatever you want and, at least under the rule of law in America you have legal protections against being physically assaulted by others because of your speech.

But you don't have a right to force people to associate with you after you've said something they don't want to be associated with. Who you choose to associate with also sends a message to others about what you are willing to accept and tolerate. It is therefore a form of speech and so freedom of speech requires you also have freedom of association.

For example, I wouldn't want my books to be sold on BGE as presently constituted because I don't want my material side-by-side without easily enabled content filters (ideally something you could enable just by using a specific link instead of the general one) for the NSFW and edgelord content it's hosting. The image I want for my setting and system is to be family-friendly; something I could sit down and run for my half-dozen godkids without their parents objecting. Having to send those parents (or those like them) through BGE as presently constituted to get my books for their kids would be utterly counterproductive.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2023, 11:13:39 AM

Quote from: Bruwulf on February 22, 2023, 07:55:38 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 21, 2023, 04:49:56 PM
You, Pundit, and everyone else taking this position are the sort that goes: "I'm for free speech but".

I know it's a common aphorism to say that "whenever you say <thing, but>, everything before the "but" is a lie". But it's not really true. If I may be somewhat ironic for a moment.

I'm pretty damned close to a free speech absolutist. But. Just because a person has a right to say something, doesn't mean I'm not going to respond to it. If you call me a slur, I'm going to respond. If you stand on a street corner and preach to me about how the Knights Templar are conspiring with lizard people underneath Mt. Rushmore to keep us from realizing that the world is a space station created by God and the sun is an illusion*, I'm going to call you a fucking moron. And if you act like an provocative edgelord, expect people to treat you like a provocative edgelord.

Freedom of speech and thought cuts both ways. I am absolutely for freedom of speech and thought. I am very much against people who think that those things mean that they can waltz through life being an idiot or an asshole and deflect any criticism about their idiocy or assholishness as "but I have the right to say those things!". Yes, you do. That's not in question. So what?

*That's... more or less how I understand an actual existing conspiracy theory to run. I made up the Mt. Rushmore part, but it's a thing. I went down a rabbit hole of Youtube videos about it a while back. Apparently sunspots in camera lenses are signs of the end time because the satellites or breaking down, or something.

Freedom of Speech does not means freedom from the consequences of your speech.

"It's not Cancel Culture! It's Consequences Culture you shitlords!"

"Yes, TSL is the exact same and it's allowed to exist but The Red Room went too far with Men and deserve whatever the megacorporation does to them because it's not family friendly!"

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 11:23:32 AM"It's not Cancel Culture! It's Consequences Culture you shitlords!"

I want to understand your position. Is it your belief that (a) everyone should be able to say whatever they want, and, (b), that nobody should be able to respond or act based on those statements?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 11:23:32 AM"Yes, TSL is the exact same and it's allowed to exist but The Red Room went too far with Men and deserve whatever the megacorporation does to them because it's not family friendly!"

I am neither defending TSL nor saying that Men should not be allowed to exist. I am (approximately) equally unhappy both exist, and would as equally defend either one's right to exist.

Quote from: Bruwulf on February 22, 2023, 01:58:30 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 11:23:32 AM"It's not Cancel Culture! It's Consequences Culture you shitlords!"

I want to understand your position. Is it your belief that (a) everyone should be able to say whatever they want, and, (b), that nobody should be able to respond or act based on those statements?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 11:23:32 AM"Yes, TSL is the exact same and it's allowed to exist but The Red Room went too far with Men and deserve whatever the megacorporation does to them because it's not family friendly!"

I am neither defending TSL nor saying that Men should not be allowed to exist. I am (approximately) equally unhappy both exist, and would as equally defend either one's right to exist.

I know you were not asking me, but I am answering. Perhaps because I am older than most here, I am in favor of 'free speech'. That means I can say whatever I want. That does not mean I can force people to listen.

Today we are being censored by people who then force us to listen to them. That is 'no bueno'! IMHO.

Bugle has the right of it. Reciprocity is a critical element of liberal society.

The reason the western world is this way is because liberals have allowed their values and norms to be exploited and abused by activists and revolutionaries who do not share those values.

I don't know anything about Red Room or their game, but nobody has said anything about them in this thread that isn't also true of Evil Hat. Stop carrying water for left-wing activists.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 22, 2023, 02:05:36 PM
I know you were not asking me, but I am answering. Perhaps because I am older than most here, I am in favor of 'free speech'. That means I can say whatever I want. That does not mean I can force people to listen.

Today we are being censored by people who then force us to listen to them. That is 'no bueno'! IMHO.

I mean, are we? I'm not listening to them.

Quote from: Corolinth on February 22, 2023, 02:29:14 PM
I don't know anything about Red Room or their game, but nobody has said anything about them in this thread that isn't also true of Evil Hat. Stop carrying water for left-wing activists.

And most of us criticize Evil Hat and TSL, too.

Quote from: Bruwulf on February 22, 2023, 07:55:38 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 21, 2023, 04:49:56 PM
You, Pundit, and everyone else taking this position are the sort that goes: "I'm for free speech but".

I know it's a common aphorism to say that "whenever you say <thing, but>, everything before the "but" is a lie". But it's not really true. If I may be somewhat ironic for a moment.

I'm pretty damned close to a free speech absolutist. But. Just because a person has a right to say something, doesn't mean I'm not going to respond to it. If you call me a slur, I'm going to respond. If you stand on a street corner and preach to me about how the Knights Templar are conspiring with lizard people underneath Mt. Rushmore to keep us from realizing that the world is a space station created by God and the sun is an illusion*, I'm going to call you a fucking moron. And if you act like an provocative edgelord, expect people to treat you like a provocative edgelord.

Freedom of speech and thought cuts both ways. I am absolutely for freedom of speech and thought. I am very much against people who think that those things mean that they can waltz through life being an idiot or an asshole and deflect any criticism about their idiocy or assholishness as "but I have the right to say those things!". Yes, you do. That's not in question. So what?

*That's... more or less how I understand an actual existing conspiracy theory to run. I made up the Mt. Rushmore part, but it's a thing. I went down a rabbit hole of Youtube videos about it a while back. Apparently sunspots in camera lenses are signs of the end time because the satellites or breaking down, or something.

The problem is when you become a big tech CEO, and decide those nutty people aren't allowed to post on your site, which happens to be the de facto public square.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 11:23:32 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 20, 1970, 04:51:22 AM
Freedom of Speech does not means freedom from the consequences of your speech.

"It's not Cancel Culture! It's Consequences Culture you shitlords!"

"Yes, TSL is the exact same and it's allowed to exist but The Red Room went too far with Men and deserve whatever the megacorporation does to them because it's not family friendly!"

Then you need to go out and buy WotC products and sign up for DDB right now. How dare you judge them of not being worth buying from based on their speech.

Your ability to dissociate yourself from the statements of others is ALSO a form of free speech.

You want it both ways... you want to be free to dissociate from anyone you disagree with (ex. WotC), but demand everyone else associate with those you do like (ex. BGE) or else they're being censorious. You don't want us to have the freedom to say "I want nothing to do with edgelords and NSFW content producers." I am not allowed Freedom of Speech unless it agrees with you.

How is that any better than the Leftists?

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 22, 2023, 02:05:36 PM

Quote from: Bruwulf on February 22, 2023, 01:58:30 PM
I want to understand your position. Is it your belief that (a) everyone should be able to say whatever they want, and, (b), that nobody should be able to respond or act based on those statements?

I know you were not asking me, but I am answering. Perhaps because I am older than most here, I am in favor of 'free speech'. That means I can say whatever I want. That does not mean I can force people to listen.

Today we are being censored by people who then force us to listen to them. That is 'no bueno'! IMHO.

How old are you, squirewaldo? I'm 53 now, for comparison.

I also favor free speech, regardless of the political content of said speech. So that includes free speech for neonazis, communists, white nationalists, and Islamic fundamentalists just as much as for mainstream political views.

My values on this come from experiences like as a teenager, going with my Presbyterian church group to watch _The Last Temptation of Christ_ and then discuss it afterwards, sharing our criticisms of it. Similarly, I donated money to the ACLU's court battle for nazis right to hold a demonstration -- and then went to a counter-demonstration to directly oppose their views. That to me is the fundamental of free speech. The right of something to exist is different than supporting that view.

Within RPGs, I support the loose moderation of theRPGsite, because I like the openness -- and I dislike when posters are banned for their views. I would also prefer a game outlet to be similar. I'd want an outlet where I could get MyFarog or Police_Procedure as well as more mainstream RPGs.

That said, these examples are private enterprises. This is the Pundit's site, and he has the right to ban people as he pleases. I will express my preference otherwise - I don't think that users like Alathon should have been banned for their views. I had some interesting discussions with Alathon, and I think he was genuinely expressing his views. However, it's not at a point where I'm going to boycott theRPGsite over these bannings. It is still my preferred forum despite my dislike of that.

Likewise, I would prefer that I could get banned games from DriveThruRPG. I'll give them similar feedback, but I'm currently not at a point where I'm going to boycott them. From what I see, they have RPGs ranging from World of Gor and the Hot Chicks RPG to Thirsty Sword Lesbians and Night Witches. I'd prefer they be more open, but I also recognize they are a business trying to make money for themselves.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2023, 03:40:25 PMThen you need to go out and buy WotC products and sign up for DDB right now. How dare you judge them of not being worth buying from based on their speech.

(https://c.tenor.com/me1Yk0jRlHoAAAAC/tenor.gif)

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2023, 03:40:25 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 11:23:32 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 20, 1970, 04:51:22 AM
Freedom of Speech does not means freedom from the consequences of your speech.

"It's not Cancel Culture! It's Consequences Culture you shitlords!"

"Yes, TSL is the exact same and it's allowed to exist but The Red Room went too far with Men and deserve whatever the megacorporation does to them because it's not family friendly!"

Then you need to go out and buy WotC products and sign up for DDB right now. How dare you judge them of not being worth buying from based on their speech.

Your ability to dissociate yourself from the statements of others is ALSO a form of free speech.

You want it both ways... you want to be free to dissociate from anyone you disagree with (ex. WotC), but demand everyone else associate with those you do like (ex. BGE) or else they're being censorious. You don't want us to have the freedom to say "I want nothing to do with edgelords and NSFW content producers." I am not allowed Freedom of Speech unless it agrees with you.

How is that any better than the Leftists?

Nice strawman you got going there my dude.

NEVER have I said you as a buyer MUST buy anything.

I've said WE as buyers/creators should support a free speech alternative because the De-Facto monopoly isn't it. I've also said t5his won't happen and we'll get what we fucking deserve.

Speaking of being like the leftists, it's YOU who is speaking in deffense of banning games you don't like because "muh private company can do whatever it wants".

IF DTTRG had to buy anything before putting it on their storefront then I would say they have the right not to buy from anyone, since they don't, and they allow identical games from the leftard point of view then I say they must also allow those from the right point of view, because I'm consistent in my principles.

I want to be able to not buy from anyone, yes, even from people I might agree politically with. Now please point to where I have said anyone MUST buy from anyone.

Quote from: Bruwulf on February 22, 2023, 02:52:17 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 22, 2023, 02:05:36 PM
I know you were not asking me, but I am answering. Perhaps because I am older than most here, I am in favor of 'free speech'. That means I can say whatever I want. That does not mean I can force people to listen.

Today we are being censored by people who then force us to listen to them. That is 'no bueno'! IMHO.

I mean, are we? I'm not listening to them.

Quote from: Corolinth on February 22, 2023, 02:29:14 PM
I don't know anything about Red Room or their game, but nobody has said anything about them in this thread that isn't also true of Evil Hat. Stop carrying water for left-wing activists.

And most of us criticize Evil Hat and TSL, too.

Yes, most of us criticize them, but some of us aren't willing to support The Red Room's right to publish the stuff they want to as long as it's legal.

Some of us are "pro-freespeech" because they don't report TSL or EvilHat, but won't fight for the people on our side if they dare publish something they deem too far or offensive.

Sorry, but IMHO you have to do both and be willing to fight for the right of people to say stuff you find objectionable or you're not pro-freespeech.

IF any right winger wanted to start a campaign to get TSL banned I would speak in defense of the leftards. Just like I now speak in defense of Miguel.

Quote from: Bruwulf on February 22, 2023, 01:58:30 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 11:23:32 AM"It's not Cancel Culture! It's Consequences Culture you shitlords!"

I want to understand your position. Is it your belief that (a) everyone should be able to say whatever they want, and, (b), that nobody should be able to respond or act based on those statements?

a) Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

b) It depends on what type of reponse or action you plan on taking: Hiting someone over words? No. Censoring someone's speech? NO. Cancelling ANYONE for their opinions? FUCK NO!

There's already legal limits most agree to free speech in the USA (Don't ask me about Europe which is fucked including the UK). I'm sick and tired of leftard run megacorporations legislating via TOS.

But unless a law is passed to stop them from doing so or enough people ACT within the law to make them understand nothing will change.

Quote from: Bruwulf on February 22, 2023, 01:58:30 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 11:23:32 AM"Yes, TSL is the exact same and it's allowed to exist but The Red Room went too far with Men and deserve whatever the megacorporation does to them because it's not family friendly!"

I am neither defending TSL nor saying that Men should not be allowed to exist. I am (approximately) equally unhappy both exist, and would as equally defend either one's right to exist.

I am actually deffending BOTH's right to exist.

I am doing so by trying to get people to ACT within the law to make OBS understand their fuckery isn't welcome.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 03:57:48 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2023, 03:40:25 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 11:23:32 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 20, 1970, 04:51:22 AM
Freedom of Speech does not means freedom from the consequences of your speech.

"It's not Cancel Culture! It's Consequences Culture you shitlords!"

"Yes, TSL is the exact same and it's allowed to exist but The Red Room went too far with Men and deserve whatever the megacorporation does to them because it's not family friendly!"

Then you need to go out and buy WotC products and sign up for DDB right now. How dare you judge them of not being worth buying from based on their speech.

Your ability to dissociate yourself from the statements of others is ALSO a form of free speech.

You want it both ways... you want to be free to dissociate from anyone you disagree with (ex. WotC), but demand everyone else associate with those you do like (ex. BGE) or else they're being censorious. You don't want us to have the freedom to say "I want nothing to do with edgelords and NSFW content producers." I am not allowed Freedom of Speech unless it agrees with you.

How is that any better than the Leftists?

Nice strawman you got going there my dude.

NEVER have I said you as a buyer MUST buy anything.

I've said WE as buyers/creators should support a free speech alternative because the De-Facto monopoly isn't it. I've also said t5his won't happen and we'll get what we fucking deserve.

Speaking of being like the leftists, it's YOU who is speaking in deffense of banning games you don't like because "muh private company can do whatever it wants".

IF DTTRG had to buy anything before putting it on their storefront then I would say they have the right not to buy from anyone, since they don't, and they allow identical games from the leftard point of view then I say they must also allow those from the right point of view, because I'm consistent in my principles.

I want to be able to not buy from anyone, yes, even from people I might agree politically with. Now please point to where I have said anyone MUST buy from anyone.

Nice deflection. First the selective quote and now you keep turning it towards your right to buy what you want when that wasn't even the point of my original post.

My point was that freedom of association is also an element of freedom of speech and expression. I don't want my family-friendly products sold next to products with a nude in a mask on the cover, books with nazi symbols on the covers and all manner of books with "Wretched" in their title.

But if I chose to open a gaming storefront that included more than my own products (call it "Superversive RPGs" for the sake of argument) and Superversive RPGs had a policy of only selling products considered family-friendly because that aligns with my beliefs, according to you I'm being censorious and must put up any NSFW products submitted or I am violating their freedom of speech... never mind that being forced to do so violates MY speech; my choice to not associate with those products. I don't want my products associated even by proximity with that shit.

You demand companies put up products on their storefronts (which costs them money for bandwidth and server space) that they disagree with... that is the opposite of free speech. Requiring businesses to spend money supporting and distributing material they don't believe in is compulsory speech.

What's next? Should Christian churches be forced to put up ads for a Satanic temple and for a website devoted to hookups in their bulletin lest they be censorious of the views of others? Or can one declare "these other businesses do not reflect our values"?

So, yeah, to the extent that being free to associate or dissociate from others is censorship... I am all for it (I call it just another element of freedom of speech). I will take my freedom to have my business and material free of imposed Leftist garbage over being able to force them to support my content on their site.

Freedom of Speech/Expression/Association (they're all elements of the same principle) isn't a singular event... it's a chain. Someone is free to engage in hostile marketing, DrivethruRPG is free to dissociate from them for that, and you are free to not do business with them for that choice of association they made. The moment you shut any of those down in that chain you're denying someone their freedom of speech/expression/association.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2023, 04:43:57 PM
But if I chose to open a gaming storefront that included more than my own products (call it "Superversive RPGs" for the sake of argument) and Superversive RPGs had a policy of only selling products considered family-friendly because that aligns with my beliefs, according to you I'm being censorious and must put up any NSFW products submitted or I am violating their freedom of speech... never mind that being forced to do so violates MY speech; my choice to not associate with those products. I don't want my products associated even by proximity with that shit.

You demand companies put up products on their storefronts (which costs them money for bandwidth and server space) that they disagree with... that is the opposite of free speech. Requiring businesses to spend money supporting and distributing material they don't believe in is compulsory speech.

I think there's a point to compulsory distribution in some cases, but not at the level of a store. I support Net Neutrality for ISPs, where they can't choose to downgrade or block packets depending on where they come from. But I don't think stores should be required to sell all items regardless of their wishes.

Overall, I try to keep all this in perspective. It has never been the case that one could arbitrarily get one's book of arbitrary material published by mainstream stores. Even before the Satanic Panic of the 1980s, I highly doubt the Men RPG would have gotten distribution in any game stores if it were published in the 1970s. For example, the Alma Mater RPG was published in 1982 and banned from Gen Con and many other outlets. Go back to earlier decades, and distribution would overall be equally censorious. I'm not saying that is right -- but it is relevant to how much outrage I have about it happening now.

Hey, quick thought experiment: maybe a massive corporation with a monopolistic grasp on an entire hobby, or even public square, shouldn't have the same right to disassociate as an individual. Because Harry or Bob not buying your product, is not equivalent to no-one being able to buy your product.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2023, 04:43:57 PM

But if I chose to open a gaming storefront that included more than my own products (call it "Superversive RPGs" for the sake of argument) and Superversive RPGs had a policy of only selling products considered family-friendly because that aligns with my beliefs, according to you I'm being censorious and must put up any NSFW products submitted or I am violating their freedom of speech... never mind that being forced to do so violates MY speech; my choice to not associate with those products. I don't want my products associated even by proximity with that shit.

Where's the rule on DTTRPG that says stuff like Men or TSL isn't allowed on the site?

If there is aren't they censoring one while allowing the other?

Is your storefront a de-facto monopoly?

If yes then I do think you should allow anything that's not against US law.

But you keep on carrying water for the leftard run megacorporation.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 22, 2023, 05:48:27 PM
Hey, quick thought experiment: maybe a massive corporation with a monopolistic grasp on an entire hobby, or even public square, shouldn't have the same right to disassociate as an individual. Because Harry or Bob not buying your product, is not equivalent to no-one being able to buy your product.

Something that should be obvious to all.

But "muh lewds, notzee symbols, etc!" "I don't want my family friendly products sold next to those even with NSFW search filters!" (Then make your own store and don't sell anything that goes against your principles).

But if you're a de-facto monopoly you can't expect the same protections as pop&mom down the corner.

Quote from: jhkim on February 22, 2023, 05:39:45 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2023, 04:43:57 PM
But if I chose to open a gaming storefront that included more than my own products (call it "Superversive RPGs" for the sake of argument) and Superversive RPGs had a policy of only selling products considered family-friendly because that aligns with my beliefs, according to you I'm being censorious and must put up any NSFW products submitted or I am violating their freedom of speech... never mind that being forced to do so violates MY speech; my choice to not associate with those products. I don't want my products associated even by proximity with that shit.

You demand companies put up products on their storefronts (which costs them money for bandwidth and server space) that they disagree with... that is the opposite of free speech. Requiring businesses to spend money supporting and distributing material they don't believe in is compulsory speech.

I think there's a point to compulsory distribution in some cases, but not at the level of a store. I support Net Neutrality for ISPs, where they can't choose to downgrade or block packets depending on where they come from. But I don't think stores should be required to sell all items regardless of their wishes.

Overall, I try to keep all this in perspective. It has never been the case that one could arbitrarily get one's book of arbitrary material published by mainstream stores. Even before the Satanic Panic of the 1980s, I highly doubt the Men RPG would have gotten distribution in any game stores if it were published in the 1970s. For example, the Alma Mater RPG was published in 1982 and banned from Gen Con and many other outlets. Go back to earlier decades, and distribution would overall be equally censorious. I'm not saying that is right -- but it is relevant to how much outrage I have about it happening now.

Meanwhile an equally offensive (to other people) game TSL is allowed to be sold.

It's not about ANYONE's morals or principles but about pushing leftard bullshit while punishing anyone that hurts woketard fee-fees.

DTTRPG isn't your LFGS, it's a defacto monopoly, if you're not selling there you don't exist unless you're the giant 500 lbs gorilla.

Thus your example is just a false equivalence.

You're carrying water for the megacorp because you agree politically with them, if some right wing billionaire bought it and started banning all the leftist games you'd be singing a different song.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 05:54:11 PM
But you keep on carrying water for the leftard run megacorporation.

From what I can tell, OneBookShelf has 24 employees, with a revenue of $5 million. That's much bigger than a mom and pop store, but it's also far from a megacorporation.

Source: https://www.konaequity.com/company/onebookshelf-inc-4397967097/

For comparison, a big game store chain like The Compleat Strategist has revenue of $3.3 million and 12 employees.

Source: https://www.datanyze.com/companies/the-compleat-strategist/13796767


Again - I would like DTRPG to be more open about the games they carry, and I'll give them such feedback. But no, I don't think they should be forced to sell any games they are given regardless of content.

The free speech Political Science 101 conversation is a distraction. It is also the same arguments I have heard all my life. You are not breaking any new ground or changing minds with it.

OBS has a policy they have openly shared. That policy states they can censor. They can suspend first, ask questions later. I have ethical issues with the way they conduct business.

Because I do not support their behavior, I do not give money to OBS. I could explain this to a seven year-old and they would get it. It is that simple.

Now for Red Room and the censorship claim... It sounds like Red Room was using OBS as part of their marketing. OBS does not need to put up with that. I'm good with OBS pulling their products in light of this. They can be right about Red Room and still be wrong about their other business practices.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 05:54:11 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2023, 04:43:57 PM

But if I chose to open a gaming storefront that included more than my own products (call it "Superversive RPGs" for the sake of argument) and Superversive RPGs had a policy of only selling products considered family-friendly because that aligns with my beliefs, according to you I'm being censorious and must put up any NSFW products submitted or I am violating their freedom of speech... never mind that being forced to do so violates MY speech; my choice to not associate with those products. I don't want my products associated even by proximity with that shit.

Where's the rule on DTTRPG that says stuff like Men or TSL isn't allowed on the site?

If there is aren't they censoring one while allowing the other?

Is your storefront a de-facto monopoly?

If yes then I do think you should allow anything that's not against US law.

But you keep on carrying water for the leftard run megacorporation.

I believe the rule was "no hostile marketing." Red Room definitely violated it.

Also, if DriveThruRPG were a monopoly I wouldn't actually be able to open my own storefront and promote that site on social media like Gab or Rumble (or Twitter while the current ownership holds anyway).

If they were a monopoly I couldn't buy the same PDFs off a publisher's direct site instead of DriveThru (something I always try to do so the publisher gets more off the sale).

If they were a monopoly they could keep me from selling it on Amazon or with a Christian books retailer (I seriously was encouraged by a non-gamer to go that after explaining my setting as they immediately associated it with Tolkein and Narnia) or giving copies to my friendly local game shop for their shelves (payment on sale).

You overestimate the degree of monopoly power DriveThruRPG actually holds (vs. the level of convenience it offers relative to alternatives). It's NOT a Google or Twitter or YouTube (and alternatives that don't suck are gaining ground on them too. Rumble is doing TV ads now encouraging content creators to switch away from YouTube). Its certainly no Amazon.

And while I will agree the slippery slope argument is always valid with Leftists, the fact that I see RPG Pundit and ACKS both readily available on DriveThruRPG tells me the level of censorship there isn't nearly to the degree you're making it out to be.

Are they left-leaning? Yes. But if "Men" and Red Room is the hill you want to die on, I won't be joining you. Should something be done about TSL? Has anyone here actually filed any complaints over, say, the content about forcibly converting people into lesbians or are you just bitching about it here?

"Force your enemies to live up to their own standards." If it's the war you say it is then Queensbury Rules just gets your ass kicked. Forcing them to review and justify clearing leftist products that would be banned if they leaned the other way opens up new avenues of ridicule... the greatest weapon against an ideology barring actual violence.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2023, 07:53:39 PM

Also, if DriveThruRPG were a monopoly I wouldn't actually be able to open my own storefront and promote that site on social media like Gab or Rumble (or Twitter while the current ownership holds anyway).

If they were a monopoly I couldn't buy the same PDFs off a publisher's direct site instead of DriveThru (something I always try to do so the publisher gets more off the sale).

If they were a monopoly they could keep me from selling it on Amazon or with a Christian books retailer (I seriously was encouraged by a non-gamer to go that after explaining my setting as they immediately associated it with Tolkein and Narnia) or giving copies to my friendly local game shop for their shelves (payment on sale).

You overestimate the degree of monopoly power DriveThruRPG actually holds (vs. the level of convenience it offers relative to alternatives). It's NOT a Google or Twitter or YouTube (and alternatives that don't suck are gaining ground on them too. Rumble is doing TV ads now encouraging content creators to switch away from YouTube). Its certainly no Amazon.

I think you may be misunderstanding the practical definition of a monopoly.

In the home computer OS space, Windows is effectively one (maybe duopoly with Apple/MacOS). Linux is a distant third.

Microsoft got whacked like a pinata in court (USA and EU, maybe others) over Internet Explorer- it didn't have 100% market share, but it did have close to that outside of the UNIX/Linux types.

OBS is essentially IE- there are competitors but their market share is two orders of magnitude lower and only the cranks know of said competitors. They also, via their market share, fiscally penalize folks that don't go all in (just like Microsoft did).

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2023, 07:53:39 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 05:54:11 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2023, 04:43:57 PM

But if I chose to open a gaming storefront that included more than my own products (call it "Superversive RPGs" for the sake of argument) and Superversive RPGs had a policy of only selling products considered family-friendly because that aligns with my beliefs, according to you I'm being censorious and must put up any NSFW products submitted or I am violating their freedom of speech... never mind that being forced to do so violates MY speech; my choice to not associate with those products. I don't want my products associated even by proximity with that shit.

Where's the rule on DTTRPG that says stuff like Men or TSL isn't allowed on the site?

If there is aren't they censoring one while allowing the other?

Is your storefront a de-facto monopoly?

If yes then I do think you should allow anything that's not against US law.

But you keep on carrying water for the leftard run megacorporation.

I believe the rule was "no hostile marketing." Red Room definitely violated it.

Also, if DriveThruRPG were a monopoly I wouldn't actually be able to open my own storefront and promote that site on social media like Gab or Rumble (or Twitter while the current ownership holds anyway).

If they were a monopoly I couldn't buy the same PDFs off a publisher's direct site instead of DriveThru (something I always try to do so the publisher gets more off the sale).

If they were a monopoly they could keep me from selling it on Amazon or with a Christian books retailer (I seriously was encouraged by a non-gamer to go that after explaining my setting as they immediately associated it with Tolkein and Narnia) or giving copies to my friendly local game shop for their shelves (payment on sale).

You overestimate the degree of monopoly power DriveThruRPG actually holds (vs. the level of convenience it offers relative to alternatives). It's NOT a Google or Twitter or YouTube (and alternatives that don't suck are gaining ground on them too. Rumble is doing TV ads now encouraging content creators to switch away from YouTube). Its certainly no Amazon.

And while I will agree the slippery slope argument is always valid with Leftists, the fact that I see RPG Pundit and ACKS both readily available on DriveThruRPG tells me the level of censorship there isn't nearly to the degree you're making it out to be.

Are they left-leaning? Yes. But if "Men" and Red Room is the hill you want to die on, I won't be joining you. Should something be done about TSL? Has anyone here actually filed any complaints over, say, the content about forcibly converting people into lesbians or are you just bitching about it here?

"Force your enemies to live up to their own standards." If it's the war you say it is then Queensbury Rules just gets your ass kicked. Forcing them to review and justify clearing leftist products that would be banned if they leaned the other way opens up new avenues of ridicule... the greatest weapon against an ideology barring actual violence.

I said de-facto monopoly, which like Howard explained they are.

Glad to know you're not really for free speech.

Filing complaints about TSL? What am I? A censorious cunt?

The best weapon would be for creators and consumers to grow a pair and boycott OBS, which I have said multiple times won't happen due to cowardice on one camp and "muh convenience" on the other. Which of course means we'll get what we fucking deserve.

Just as a follow-up for those who don't know, it turns out DTRPG didn't opt for a ban due to hostile marketing. They started an investigation into that (and almost certainly would have issued a ban for it if there had been no other issues), but the reason they gave Red Room for the ban was because insulting or attacking posts had been made to social media. All of TRR's direct interactions with DTRPG were civil and polite--DTRPG even admitted as such in an email with the guy who runs TRR--but DTRPG didn't like the posts that were made about them on other sites.

I can understand why TRR was banned because their behavior was over the top, but that does nothing to assuage my worries that DTRPG will only grow more ban-happy as the years progress. It may not seem too bad now, but then I expect most users of rpg.net in the early 2000s had no idea what the site would be like in 10-15 years. Here's hoping DTRPG doesn't follow the same path.

I commented about this on Youtube, so I guess I'll comment about it here too. I have a problem with OBS essentially putting a gag order on publishers. As I said on Youtube, half of what you read on the net is people complaining about how this or that company has pissed them off. Drivethru does dominate the market. So if they can purge a publisher from their site because said publisher posts an account of actions that Drivethru is taking / has taken against them, or describing their concern that Drivethru will punish them, then I think anti-monopoly actions should be taken against Drivethru. That's a gag order, and I don't care if they put it into their Terms and Conditions that all publishers have to accept in order to deal with their monopoly. I don't think that any contract should be viable if it requires you to sign away your rights, and it infuriates me that it's become commonplace. If you want to get all worked up about something, then IMO that's it. Not how many lesbians equal dickless women counting as inventory. Just my opinion, but a point that I think should be made.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 09:25:16 PM
I said de-facto monopoly, which like Howard explained they are.

Glad to know you're not really for free speech.

Filing complaints about TSL? What am I? A censorious cunt?

No, you're just another self-righteous loser... putting your self-perceived virtue over getting the damned job done and then saying "oh, we'll get them next time" after each loss you take. Sometimes the only way to get bad people to stop is to actually punch back in a way they understand.

So if want you to win, you need to throw sand in the damn gears every chance you get. The Allies didn't win by facing the Axis on the field of the Axis' choosing each day. They bombed the hell out of their infrastructure.

Use their own rules against them. If you want OBS to change its policies then you need to make those policies too "costly" to enforce by burying them in complaints about all the lefty products. If they're really the one-side censorious cunts you believe them to be the difference in outcomes will become more and more apparent to the normal folks visiting the site.

And understand that your views of free speech are exreme so you're never going to get people (creators or consumers) to boycott OBS if you have nothing to offer them.

Most people aren't absolutist fanatics like you. They understand that censorship in and of itself is neither good nor bad, but a tool.

Banning porn and other obscenities from public spaces (including the front pages of big retailers like OBS) where their kids could be exposed to it is both censorship and a good thing.

Banning teachers from talking about the joys of transgenderism and sex with seven year olds is both censorship and a good thing.

Banning the right to yell "Fire" in a crowded theatre is also both censorship and a good thing.

Pundit throwing Nazi apologists out the door of his forum is both censorship and a good thing.

I certainly self-censor when some of my family and friends ask how they look and, believe me, that's a good thing.

Presently, the level of censorship OBS is conducting isn't anywhere near the level where normal people who believe in the above are going to abandon the convenience OBS offers and certainly not over banning trash like "Men" or books with Nazi symbols on their covers or mask-wearing nudes there purely for the titillation factor as the image had nothing to do with the adventure's content.

So if you want normal people to join your crusade you first need to answer the question "what's in it for them?"

That's the question success stories in the competition against other pseudo-monopolies answered when they did it. You wanna get people to abandon YouTube? First, build a streaming platform that can deliver performance in the ballpark of YouTube. Then offer content creators better terms than YouTube so they start making content for you. Then you start to get more viewers coming over for the content and now Rumble can afford primetime TV ads encouraging people to make the switch from YouTube. Are they as big yet? No, but they're growing and it's the comparable performance and better offers for content creators that are the primary needle movers... their freer speech policies are just a bonus.

Ideology; particularly extremist ideology; isn't worth a wet fart without something real to back it up. The American Revolution wasn't won with ideology alone... it was won with weapons and men and tactical/strategic plans... and it didn't follow the established orders of 18th century battle to win... it crossed the freakin' Delaware in the middle of the night to ambush the enemy on Christmas with their pants down (they also used riflemen in trees to target enemy commanders... a strict no-no by the warfare rules of the day).

And if the other side has declared being a censorious cunt to be a valid tactic of war, and you aren't using it against them to make them hurt (make them play by their own rules) and if you can't offer a platform that appeals to the wide middle then enjoy continuing to lose.

But at least your self-righteousness will keep you warm.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 21, 2023, 04:49:56 PM
You, Pundit, and everyone else taking this position are the sort that goes: "I'm for free speech but".

They had free speech, and their work was not censored. But instead of waiting until #DriveThru finished the evaluation (which is a reasonable policy) they chose to shit the bed and maliciously slander the company for clicks. So we'll never even know if "men" would have been censored, and this is one of the few situations where the consequences were entirely justified.

And free speech aside, I can say with absolute confidence you do not want to get into a business relationship with people like this. They're no different than any other fanatical ideologue who will make you and your business a target the minute it furthers their agenda. Mutual success is not part of the plan.

Quote from: Bruwulf on February 21, 2023, 05:59:19 PM
I'm sorry to say, right now BGE offers less than those early fledgling companies did twenty years ago

Politics is always less important than popularity, and I'm willing to bet more folks are playing Hogwart's Legacy despite J.K.R.s politics than those not playing because of it. And in previous discussions I mentioned that a company is destined for obscurity without at least one functional feature over competitors, of which this one has none.

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 21, 2023, 07:02:57 PM

Quote from: S'mon on February 21, 2023, 06:57:56 PM

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 21, 2023, 06:55:37 PM

Quote from: S'mon on February 21, 2023, 06:00:00 PM
Talking of, been getting back into minis painting. Love these printed resin minis.  ;D

That picture is kinda NSFW. Does this forum have a spoiler tag?

I can't see one. I've replaced pic w link.   :-[

I'm sorry if I came across as rude. It's definitely a very nice mini, it's just that the missus kind of gave me the stinkeye...  ;)

Oh the irony.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2023, 11:13:39 AM
Freedom of Speech does not means freedom from the consequences of your speech. You have a right to say whatever you want and, at least under the rule of law in America you have legal protections against being physically assaulted by others because of your speech.

Yet notice how many ideologues consider assault to be one of the acceptable consequences.

Quote from: jhkim on February 22, 2023, 06:29:34 PM
From what I can tell, OneBookShelf has 24 employees, with a revenue of $5 million. That's much bigger than a mom and pop store, but it's also far from a megacorporation.

Source: https://www.konaequity.com/company/onebookshelf-inc-4397967097/

For comparison, a big game store chain like The Compleat Strategist has revenue of $3.3 million and 12 employees.

Source: https://www.datanyze.com/companies/the-compleat-strategist/13796767

#OneBookShelf is undeniably the defacto monopoly in the digital RPG distribution space. If your RPG products aren't on there they might as well not exist. However their income as a consequence shows just how small this market actually is, and subsequently how hard it will be to get a slice of the pie.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on February 23, 2023, 06:13:49 PM

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 21, 2023, 07:02:57 PM

Quote from: S'mon on February 21, 2023, 06:57:56 PM

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 21, 2023, 06:55:37 PM

Quote from: S'mon on February 21, 2023, 06:00:00 PM
Talking of, been getting back into minis painting. Love these printed resin minis.  ;D

That picture is kinda NSFW. Does this forum have a spoiler tag?

I can't see one. I've replaced pic w link.   :-[

I'm sorry if I came across as rude. It's definitely a very nice mini, it's just that the missus kind of gave me the stinkeye...  ;)

Oh the irony.

It is a bit ironic, I agree, but I think S'mon came up with a very good solution, didn't he? There's no need to criticise anyone and the image is still visible by whoever wants to see it, just click on the link   ;D

Greetings!

In my own miniature collection, besides hundreds of normal miniatures such as heroes, adventures, humanoids, animals and monsters, I also have a grip of typically scantily-clad heroines or other near-naked strumpet characters. Most of them look pretty damned awesome, too! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on February 23, 2023, 06:13:49 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 22, 2023, 06:29:34 PM
From what I can tell, OneBookShelf has 24 employees, with a revenue of $5 million. That's much bigger than a mom and pop store, but it's also far from a megacorporation.

Source: https://www.konaequity.com/company/onebookshelf-inc-4397967097/

For comparison, a big game store chain like The Compleat Strategist has revenue of $3.3 million and 12 employees.

Source: https://www.datanyze.com/companies/the-compleat-strategist/13796767

#OneBookShelf is undeniably the defacto monopoly in the digital RPG distribution space. If your RPG products aren't on there they might as well not exist. However their income as a consequence shows just how small this market actually is, and subsequently how hard it will be to get a slice of the pie.

Agreed. That's my understanding. They're a monopoly in the narrow space, but they're not a megacorporation.

Interestingly, it seems they have about as much income and employees as a creator like Pinnacle Entertainment Group, which also has about $5M yearly income and around 25 employees.

https://www.konaequity.com/company/pinnacle-entertainment-group-inc-4397994889/

Quote from: SHARK on February 23, 2023, 07:09:37 PM
Greetings!

In my own miniature collection, besides hundreds of normal miniatures such as heroes, adventures, humanoids, animals and monsters, I also have a grip of typically scantily-clad heroines or other near-naked strumpet characters. Most of them look pretty damned awesome, too! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

;D Just been painting a brand new 'Greek village girl' I received yesterday I expect you'd like SHARK, and a 1985 slottabase Chaos Warrior it took nearly 40 years  :-[ to paint. Pics at http://simonyrpgs.blogspot.com/2023/02/recent-painting-efforts.html

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 23, 2023, 08:36:49 AM
So if want you to win, you need to throw sand in the damn gears every chance you get. The Allies didn't win by facing the Axis on the field of the Axis' choosing each day. They bombed the hell out of their infrastructure.

Use their own rules against them. If you want OBS to change its policies then you need to make those policies too "costly" to enforce by burying them in complaints about all the lefty products. If they're really the one-side censorious cunts you believe them to be the difference in outcomes will become more and more apparent to the normal folks visiting the site.

I tried that.  One game promoted REAL LIFE VIOLENCE, and cited at least one terrorist group of the past as inspiration, and suggested that people be active like them.  I provided sources/  They ignored me because he's a platinum seller (which = $$$ for them), plus the seller's politics align with OBS's left bias.

Quote from: Cathode Ray on February 24, 2023, 08:43:11 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 23, 2023, 08:36:49 AM
So if want you to win, you need to throw sand in the damn gears every chance you get. The Allies didn't win by facing the Axis on the field of the Axis' choosing each day. They bombed the hell out of their infrastructure.

Use their own rules against them. If you want OBS to change its policies then you need to make those policies too "costly" to enforce by burying them in complaints about all the lefty products. If they're really the one-side censorious cunts you believe them to be the difference in outcomes will become more and more apparent to the normal folks visiting the site.

I tried that.  One game promoted REAL LIFE VIOLENCE, and cited at least one terrorist group of the past as inspiration, and suggested that people be active like them.  I provided sources/  They ignored me because he's a platinum seller (which = $$$ for them), plus the seller's politics align with OBS's left bias.

Exactly, which is why our only lawful path is to boycott, something that'll never happen because "Muh convenience!" and "My income!" The latter I understand and sympatize, buth...

If you don't stand up now because of fear for your income just wait a few years down the line and see where that lands you.

Like I've said before: "We'll get what we fucking deserve"

Quote

Quote

It takes a couple of seconds of Googling to bring up counter-evidence: https://twitter.com/EvilHatOfficial/status/1448774890266390533; then, a couple of minutes of figuring out Twitter search syntax to get more: https://twitter.com/EvilHatOfficial/status/1463599029212880901

According to the publisher, Thirsty Sword Lesbians sold over 13k copies in the first 3-6 months after the kickstarter, which is grossing 195k+; grossing over $500k in the first year including the second $100k Kickstarter.

Another $40k+ gross in first quarter 2022? https://twitter.com/EvilHatOfficial/status/1516871792140308480

That's not "virtual no money".

Some have accepted the mantra of "get woke go broke" so fervently that they're in complete denial when virtue signaling and pissing off the 'right' people makes bank, even when they profit from the same kind of outrage marketing. And anyone saying this isn't a lot of sales/money when it comes to RPGs is just straightlining copium.

It's not "no money", but it's also not nearly as much money as it sounds. Dude, I did a video about this. When you consider the KS cut, the production costs for fulfillment, and then the fact hat evil hat has what... anywhere from 12-30 people that will need to be paid? That money all evaporates really fast.

If you're a one-man operation, and you are cautious about what you promise in a KS, and you don't have to contract for too much in art costs, layout, etc, you could make a tidy profit. But if you're a bloated company full of useless leftists, the NET (rather than gross) income might not even be enough to satisfy your Kombucha expenses.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 21, 2023, 04:49:56 PM

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on February 21, 2023, 04:17:01 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:45:45 PM
there is NO question in my mind that this game "Men" was written not as an RPG but as a POLITICAL MESSAGE. And that it's intent was to be offensive.
And that Red Room published it to try to court controversy. And that when DTRPG banned it, they did literally engage in "hostile marketing". 

Shit, when DTRPG came up with the term I felt it was something of an invention. And more, I criticized it as dangerous, because it suggests that publicly complaining in any way about your RPG being suspended counts as "hostile marketing".
But here, the Red Room did EXACTLY what they were saying 'hostile marketers' would do. Before the game was banned they were tweeting stuff along the lines of "we'll see how long it takes before DTRPG bans this one!", and once the game was banned they were using that to sell their other products and promote BGE.

Again, you can argue about how the policy could be abused or taken too far so that any criticism of DTRPG is cause for suspension, and you can argue that the general policy of suspending products is unfair because DTRPG allows all sorts of atrocious content from the left but suspends products for atrocious content from the right.

But you can't actually deny that the Red Room knew exactly what the fuck it was doing here, and was doing exactly what DTRPG had made the hostile marketing policy, and which I will now admit I was wrong to previously wave off as a fictitious boogeyman.

And this bugs me. Why? Because now the next time some product is suspended for bad reasons, DTRPG will be able to claim the "hostile marketing" defense and the fact that some people were engaging in hostile marketing will muddy the water.

Yeah, after looking into it I feel fucking played. It's just another event which proves the opposition's point, and if this keeps happening then maybe they were right all along.

Totally, it's not like Thirsty Sword Lesbians is the exact same but on the opposite way. AND it's allowed to exist and sell.

If only those evul right wingers would let us trample them nothing of the rules made to trample them would be neccessary...

You, Pundit, and everyone else taking this position are the sort that goes: "I'm for free speech but".

I'm not taking that position.

To small brains, they might fail to get that these are two completely separate arguments:

1. There is a clear double standard: where products designed to be nothing more than a propagandistic attack on ideological enemies and a call to virtue signalling from one's ideological allies, which is what BOTH Thirsty Sword Lesbians and "Men" are about, get treated DIFFERENTLY by the supposedly neutral service provider (DTRPG), where one is allowed to sell for years, and the other one suspended instantly.

2. There is a difference, between the would-be censors finding a product, declaring it "offensive" for some point of defiance of ideology (ie. "there's no black kingdoms in this setting book" or "this WHITEMAN put a Black Kingdom in his setting! Its cultural appropriation") and starting a pogrom against it on the one hand, and on the other there being a company that are essentially Outrage Grifters on the Right (or do you believe there's no such thing as right-wing grifting), who make a product that's only real purpose is to offend the left enough to be cancelled so that they can then get attention and sympathy sales from how their product was "cancelled by the libtards"?

Can you manage understanding both of those at a time?

Quote from: jhkim on February 23, 2023, 07:12:35 PM


Interestingly, it seems they have about as much income and employees as a creator like Pinnacle Entertainment Group, which also has about $5M yearly income and around 25 employees.

https://www.konaequity.com/company/pinnacle-entertainment-group-inc-4397994889/

How the hell is that even possible?! Pinnacle hasn't had a real hit since the 1990s. It's entirely running on Savage Worlds fandom. Which I guess goes to show that the "Palladium Model" of having a small cadre of absolute fanatics is a pretty good business model.

It'll probably work for the Red Room too.

Quote from: S'mon on February 24, 2023, 01:57:21 AM

Quote from: SHARK on February 23, 2023, 07:09:37 PM
Greetings!

In my own miniature collection, besides hundreds of normal miniatures such as heroes, adventures, humanoids, animals and monsters, I also have a grip of typically scantily-clad heroines or other near-naked strumpet characters. Most of them look pretty damned awesome, too! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

;D Just been painting a brand new 'Greek village girl' I received yesterday I expect you'd like SHARK, and a 1985 slottabase Chaos Warrior it took nearly 40 years  :-[ to paint. Pics at http://simonyrpgs.blogspot.com/2023/02/recent-painting-efforts.html

OK, that's enough of this bullshit. You are intentionally posting off topic. Make another post like this and you'll be banned. Only warning.

Quote from: Cathode Ray on February 24, 2023, 08:43:11 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 23, 2023, 08:36:49 AM
So if want you to win, you need to throw sand in the damn gears every chance you get. The Allies didn't win by facing the Axis on the field of the Axis' choosing each day. They bombed the hell out of their infrastructure.

Use their own rules against them. If you want OBS to change its policies then you need to make those policies too "costly" to enforce by burying them in complaints about all the lefty products. If they're really the one-side censorious cunts you believe them to be the difference in outcomes will become more and more apparent to the normal folks visiting the site.

I tried that.  One game promoted REAL LIFE VIOLENCE, and cited at least one terrorist group of the past as inspiration, and suggested that people be active like them.  I provided sources/  They ignored me because he's a platinum seller (which = $$$ for them), plus the seller's politics align with OBS's left bias.

Yeah, this idea that "if you just reported them they'd be banned too" is nonsense. This is why the system is rigged, only stuff on one side will ever be consistently banned. On one side saying something like "women aren't able to level up in this game" will get you banned, while on the other calling for literal murder of real people might not.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 24, 2023, 11:42:26 AM

Quote from: Cathode Ray on February 24, 2023, 08:43:11 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 23, 2023, 08:36:49 AM
So if want you to win, you need to throw sand in the damn gears every chance you get. The Allies didn't win by facing the Axis on the field of the Axis' choosing each day. They bombed the hell out of their infrastructure.

Use their own rules against them. If you want OBS to change its policies then you need to make those policies too "costly" to enforce by burying them in complaints about all the lefty products. If they're really the one-side censorious cunts you believe them to be the difference in outcomes will become more and more apparent to the normal folks visiting the site.

I tried that.  One game promoted REAL LIFE VIOLENCE, and cited at least one terrorist group of the past as inspiration, and suggested that people be active like them.  I provided sources/  They ignored me because he's a platinum seller (which = $$$ for them), plus the seller's politics align with OBS's left bias.

Exactly, which is why our only lawful path is to boycott, something that'll never happen because "Muh convenience!" and "My income!" The latter I understand and sympatize, buth...

If you don't stand up now because of fear for your income just wait a few years down the line and see where that lands you.

Like I've said before: "We'll get what we fucking deserve"

Boycotting OBS is pointless if there's no viable alternative site to sell products from. You just kill the OSR, the only viable remaining movement with anti-woke activism, while OBS takes at most a minor hit.  You're stabbing yourself in the jugular, hoping that some of your blood might stain your enemy's pretty dress.

The answer is CREATE A FUCKING FREE-SPEECH RPG-SELLER WEBSITE THAT WORKS. BGE at this moment is not it.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 24, 2023, 11:42:26 AM
Exactly, which is why our only lawful path is to boycott, something that'll never happen because "Muh convenience!" and "My income!" The latter I understand and sympatize, buth...

It's not "muh convenience" to say "your website is broken and I literally can't use it", which was the case last time I tried to use BGE. It's also not "muh convenience" to say "you don't have anything I would want to buy", which has been the case every time I've tried to use BGE.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 24, 2023, 03:18:40 PM
How the hell is that even possible?! Pinnacle hasn't had a real hit since the 1990s. It's entirely running on Savage Worlds fandom. Which I guess goes to show that the "Palladium Model" of having a small cadre of absolute fanatics is a pretty good business model.

It'll probably work for the Red Room too.

To be fair, while I absolutely don't get the love for it - I can barely stand the system - Savage Worlds does seem to be insanely popular these days. It seems like every other game these days - new or old - are now Savage. It reminds me of the D20 boom. I don't know if they charge a license for using the imprint or anything, but even just their own products probably bring in a fair amount if income.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 24, 2023, 03:18:40 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 23, 2023, 07:12:35 PM
Interestingly, it seems they have about as much income and employees as a creator like Pinnacle Entertainment Group, which also has about $5M yearly income and around 25 employees.

https://www.konaequity.com/company/pinnacle-entertainment-group-inc-4397994889/

How the hell is that even possible?! Pinnacle hasn't had a real hit since the 1990s. It's entirely running on Savage Worlds fandom. Which I guess goes to show that the "Palladium Model" of having a small cadre of absolute fanatics is a pretty good business model.

It'll probably work for the Red Room too.

Yeah, it was surprising to me, too. From these company revenue reports, OneBookShelf is a little smaller than I suspected - but The Compleat Strategist and Pinnacle are bigger than I thought. I'd take the revenue numbers with a grain of salt. Also, remember that employees are probably mostly part-time rather than full-time.

For comparison, I checked out Steve Jackson Games. One site reported $6M revenue and 53 (!) employees. But their 2021 report to shareholders says $3.7M income.

https://rocketreach.co/steve-jackson-games-profile_b5c66cf4f42e0c8f

http://www.sjgames.com/general/stakeholders/

It could be that the Rocketreach revenue info is out of date. Wikipedia reports $6.6M revenue for 2015, but it has shrunk a lot since then. Their stated goal for 2021 was to "survive".

Quote from: jhkim on February 24, 2023, 04:15:19 PM
For comparison, I checked out Steve Jackson Games. One site reported $6M revenue and 53 (!) employees. But their 2021 report to shareholders says $3.7M income.

I balked at 3.7 million. I had to go check their website. I forgot they published Munchkin. I forgot how much stuff they published that just never was on my radar, actually. I suppose that probably brings in a fair few bucks. Apparently they are still putting out GURPS books! I thought it basically withered and died with 4th edition. I guess not.

SJG seems to have been struggling and shrinking since 2019-20. I guess Munchkin has plateaued, they haven't had any new hits, and (pure speculation) Car Wars 6e lost them a lot of money.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 24, 2023, 03:23:04 PM


Boycotting OBS is pointless if there's no viable alternative site to sell products from. You just kill the OSR, the only viable remaining movement with anti-woke activism, while OBS takes at most a minor hit.  You're stabbing yourself in the jugular, hoping that some of your blood might stain your enemy's pretty dress.

The answer is CREATE A FUCKING FREE-SPEECH RPG-SELLER WEBSITE THAT WORKS. BGE at this moment is not it.

If the OSR depends upon OBS/DTRPG to survive... does it deserve to survive?

I will never buy anything from OBS/DTRPG again until they change their business practices. I am not holding my breath. If there is no effective substitute or solution to this, then so be it. I need air, water, food, etc. I don't need anything from them. And I don't need anything from you guys either.

If there are more people like me, perhaps not likely, then you guys better start doing something to make BGE and other sites work, or create something that does so to your delicate sensibilities and satisfaction. Since you guys will not support websites trying to do something positive, won't create something better... Good luck. Take care, and let me know when the revolution starts.

In the ongoing drama of DTRPG, I have had 8 new reviews left today. All negative. More reviews than I have received in the last 10 years. Positive reviews have disappeared. Ok.

Again, I am left the with the curious question: Am I really worth all this effort?

I guess I will just pull everything from DTRPG, shut everything down until July 21, 2023, when my 'exclusivity' terms expire, and see what happens after that. It seems pointless to continue with them.

Until that time my games will be available on my website: https://www.bozbat.com/ (https://www.bozbat.com/).

I'd like to know the percentage of sales for RPG products from DTRPG vs. other sources (e.g. Itch, Gumroad, Amazon, etc).

I'm honestly surprised Amazon isn't the bigger issue here, since so many people are likely to have Kindle/Audible.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 24, 2023, 11:18:49 PM
If there are more people like me, perhaps not likely, then you guys better start doing something to make BGE and other sites work, or create something that does so to your delicate sensibilities and satisfaction. Since you guys will not support websites trying to do something positive, won't create something better... Good luck. Take care, and let me know when the revolution starts.

Someplace like BGE needs to at least try to meet regular customers halfway by offering something more than edgelord garbage and a few OSR products (OSR is a niche of a niche and it's not automatic that those who aren't woke actually like it. I didn't enjoy it when it was genuine Basic/AD&D either... the closest I get to OSR is Palladium Fantasy*).

It's like offering a buffet of horse droppings and broccoli and wondering why no one is buying.

* speaking of... even Palladium's storefront is better organized than BGE.

Quote from: Zelen on February 25, 2023, 03:13:57 AM
I'm honestly surprised Amazon isn't the bigger issue here, since so many people are likely to have Kindle/Audible.

Does Amazon even sell PDFs? I think the Kindle marketplace is geared around their proprietary DRMed spinoff version of .mobi ebook files. Even if they did, I suspect they would be DRMed PDFs, and that didn't work well when OBS or RPGNow (I forget which it was) tried it back in the beginning. Gamers didn't buy them.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 24, 2023, 11:18:49 PMIf there are more people like me, perhaps not likely, then you guys better start doing something to make BGE and other sites work, or create something that does so to your delicate sensibilities and satisfaction.

"Delicate sensibilities and satisfaction" = expecting a store that wants my business to sell me something I want. Got it.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 24, 2023, 11:18:49 PMSince you guys will not support websites trying to do something positive

Literally nobody has said that, despite what you and a couple other posters keep trying to imply.

What people are saying is that, in and of itself, "trying to do better" is not enough. There are no blue ribbon "participation awards" in running a business. It's not a second grade spelling bee.

I made my first purchase on BGE the other day and it was pretty painless.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 25, 2023, 01:10:54 AM
In the ongoing drama of DTRPG, I have had 8 new reviews left today. All negative. More reviews than I have received in the last 10 years. Positive reviews have disappeared. Ok.

Again, I am left the with the curious question: Am I really worth all this effort?

I guess I will just pull everything from DTRPG, shut everything down until July 21, 2023, when my 'exclusivity' terms expire, and see what happens after that. It seems pointless to continue with them.

Until that time my games will be available on my website: https://www.bozbat.com/ (https://www.bozbat.com/).

If you can prove OBS removed your positive reviews, you could have something there.

Quote from: FingerRod on February 25, 2023, 08:34:32 AM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 25, 2023, 01:10:54 AM
In the ongoing drama of DTRPG, I have had 8 new reviews left today. All negative. More reviews than I have received in the last 10 years. Positive reviews have disappeared. Ok.

Again, I am left the with the curious question: Am I really worth all this effort?

I guess I will just pull everything from DTRPG, shut everything down until July 21, 2023, when my 'exclusivity' terms expire, and see what happens after that. It seems pointless to continue with them.

Until that time my games will be available on my website: https://www.bozbat.com/ (https://www.bozbat.com/).

If you can prove OBS removed your positive reviews, you could have something there.

Hahahahahahaha! How would I prove that? I don't have access to their server, and I don't think asking nicely is going to help. I have been asking nicely about some irritating things going on for about a year and it has escalated to this.

It might not even be them. It might be aliens from Mars hacking their system just to screw with me!?

What ever it is... What DTRPG does is beyond my control. What is in my control is to never buy from them again!

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 25, 2023, 09:36:00 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on February 25, 2023, 08:34:32 AM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 25, 2023, 01:10:54 AM
In the ongoing drama of DTRPG, I have had 8 new reviews left today. All negative. More reviews than I have received in the last 10 years. Positive reviews have disappeared. Ok.

Again, I am left the with the curious question: Am I really worth all this effort?

I guess I will just pull everything from DTRPG, shut everything down until July 21, 2023, when my 'exclusivity' terms expire, and see what happens after that. It seems pointless to continue with them.

Until that time my games will be available on my website: https://www.bozbat.com/ (https://www.bozbat.com/).

If you can prove OBS removed your positive reviews, you could have something there.

Hahahahahahaha! How would I prove that? I don't have access to their server, and I don't think asking nicely is going to help. I have been asking nicely about some irritating things going on for about a year and it has escalated to this.

It might not even be them. It might be aliens from Mars hacking their system just to screw with me!?

What ever it is... What DTRPG does is beyond my control. What is in my control is to never buy from them again!

You have become increasingly unhinged as this thread has progressed. Good luck with your games.

Quote from: FingerRod on February 25, 2023, 11:36:43 AM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 25, 2023, 09:36:00 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on February 25, 2023, 08:34:32 AM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 25, 2023, 01:10:54 AM
In the ongoing drama of DTRPG, I have had 8 new reviews left today. All negative. More reviews than I have received in the last 10 years. Positive reviews have disappeared. Ok.

Again, I am left the with the curious question: Am I really worth all this effort?

I guess I will just pull everything from DTRPG, shut everything down until July 21, 2023, when my 'exclusivity' terms expire, and see what happens after that. It seems pointless to continue with them.

Until that time my games will be available on my website: https://www.bozbat.com/ (https://www.bozbat.com/).

If you can prove OBS removed your positive reviews, you could have something there.

Hahahahahahaha! How would I prove that? I don't have access to their server, and I don't think asking nicely is going to help. I have been asking nicely about some irritating things going on for about a year and it has escalated to this.

It might not even be them. It might be aliens from Mars hacking their system just to screw with me!?

What ever it is... What DTRPG does is beyond my control. What is in my control is to never buy from them again!

You have become increasingly unhinged as this thread has progressed. Good luck with your games.

Ok. Thank you for sharing your opinion with me. I am just stating facts that I must admit are very confusing to me. I am trying not to speculate beyond what I know. I will leave that to others although I am sure people have better things to do...

I don't see anything wrong with what Squirewaldo said.

Quote from: Cathode Ray on February 25, 2023, 01:12:45 PM
I don't see anything wrong with what Squirewaldo said.

Me either... unless I missed something?

Quote from: Cathode Ray on February 25, 2023, 01:12:45 PM
I don't see anything wrong with what Squirewaldo said.

It is just a falacious argument made to discredit someone: If you cannot prove X (usually something you did not state) the facts you stated are untrue! Therefore you are either crazy, misinformed, a liar, or all of the above!

What I know: positive reviews were removed and 8 negative reviews were added in a period of about 1 hour (more reviews than I have ever received during the life of my little account) -- the positive reviews came with comments and were not anonymous, the negative reviews were without comments and thus anonymous. I have been having problems with DTRPG for about a year that have been getting progressively worse, and in my opinion petty.

I did not state that DTRPG did this. I acknowledge it could be someone or something else. It could be some sort of glitch that will be fixed... Just because all the evidence points to DTRPG being the obvious culprit does not mean they did it. Plus, I have no way of knowing if it was them or someone or something else. I cannot even prove it happened since I did not keep evidence of the positive comments.

I decided to simply unpublish everything on DTRPG for now. Continuing to have my work there only invites further abuse from whoever or whatever is doing this.

I have also unpublished everything from other 3rd party websites as DTRPG has instructed me to do -- work that I have never posted on DTRPG. I disagree with their interpretation of the exclusionary rule (I believe it only covers PDFs I have posted on DTRPG not all work globally), but even if I am right it is not worth fighting with them. On July 21, 2023, my exclusionary period ends according to their own clear statements. I will be able to post anywhere according to their own interpretation.

Maybe I will even give DTRPG another chance. How can it hurt? Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 25, 2023, 01:25:53 PM

Quote from: Cathode Ray on February 25, 2023, 01:12:45 PM
I don't see anything wrong with what Squirewaldo said.

Me either... unless I missed something?

You did, bud. Go back and look at his posts throughout this thread. And also look at mine.

I have said from the beginning that, like him, I do not give OBS my money. Even if the Red Room situation was a case of them bringing it upon themselves.

He then starts talking about this place in generalizations. His quote: "Since you guys will not support websites....." etc was one example.

Despite that, I try to toss him support by pointing out that if he could show that his positive reviews were removed by OBS he could have something. Meaning maybe he could get out of his non-compete. Maybe he could even prove damages.

He started talking about Mars and doing his hahahahahaha bullshit. If anyone thinks there wouldn't be a digital footprint left when the 8 good reviews were removed then they do not understand the way things work. But somehow my statement was an attack.

And he is taking it further by claiming I am making a fallacious argument and trying to discredit him. Again, I have shown nothing but support with all of my comments.

So yes this dude is unhinged. He is seeing enemies where they don't exists. He is making sweeping generalizations about the forum posters because people are pointing out how shitty of a site BGE is. Go back and look at the posts.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 24, 2023, 11:18:49 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 24, 2023, 03:23:04 PM


Boycotting OBS is pointless if there's no viable alternative site to sell products from. You just kill the OSR, the only viable remaining movement with anti-woke activism, while OBS takes at most a minor hit.  You're stabbing yourself in the jugular, hoping that some of your blood might stain your enemy's pretty dress.

The answer is CREATE A FUCKING FREE-SPEECH RPG-SELLER WEBSITE THAT WORKS. BGE at this moment is not it.

If the OSR depends upon OBS/DTRPG to survive... does it deserve to survive?

If it doesn't, then you don't have a hobby anymore. The entire hobby will belong to the Stalinists. You'll have been a useful idiot who did their job for them by not supporting the game designers who actually stand up to wokeness.

Quote from: Zelen on February 25, 2023, 03:13:57 AM
I'd like to know the percentage of sales for RPG products from DTRPG vs. other sources (e.g. Itch, Gumroad, Amazon, etc).

I'm honestly surprised Amazon isn't the bigger issue here, since so many people are likely to have Kindle/Audible.

Amazon sales of those books of mine that are on Amazon are pretty good, but these tend to be more of the print editions than the electronic ones. I suspect this is because people tend to do one-stop shopping of RPG stuff on DTRPG. That's what any competitor to DTRPG is up against, the dude earlier in this thread was completely right that UTILITY is the central thing that any competitor (including BGE) needs to focus on.  If your site isn't easy to use, easy to find stuff, easy to get shown stuff that is actually similar to the stuff you like so you can discover new product, you won't beat DTRPG, even if your prices are lower.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 25, 2023, 05:49:38 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 24, 2023, 11:18:49 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 24, 2023, 03:23:04 PM


Boycotting OBS is pointless if there's no viable alternative site to sell products from. You just kill the OSR, the only viable remaining movement with anti-woke activism, while OBS takes at most a minor hit.  You're stabbing yourself in the jugular, hoping that some of your blood might stain your enemy's pretty dress.

The answer is CREATE A FUCKING FREE-SPEECH RPG-SELLER WEBSITE THAT WORKS. BGE at this moment is not it.

If the OSR depends upon OBS/DTRPG to survive... does it deserve to survive?

If it doesn't, then you don't have a hobby anymore. The entire hobby will belong to the Stalinists. You'll have been a useful idiot who did their job for them by not supporting the game designers who actually stand up to wokeness.

So I must support abusive woke marxist bastards in order not to be a useful idiot... Maybe I should start knitting... oh never mind. Whittling perhaps. No wokistas in whittling are there???? :)

Quote from: Cathode Ray on February 25, 2023, 01:12:45 PM
I don't see anything wrong with what Squirewaldo said.

Well, that post where he said he felt like making an RPG where you play SS Guards raping and killing jews in a death camp, just to "own the libs" of DTRPG in some way.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 25, 2023, 05:58:08 PM

Quote from: Cathode Ray on February 25, 2023, 01:12:45 PM
I don't see anything wrong with what Squirewaldo said.

Well, that post where he said he felt like making an RPG where you play SS Guards raping and killing jews in a death camp, just to "own the libs" of DTRPG in some way.

There you go again taking my comments out of context. Feel free to boot me from this forum since I am so unhinged.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 25, 2023, 05:52:46 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 25, 2023, 05:49:38 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 24, 2023, 11:18:49 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 24, 2023, 03:23:04 PM


Boycotting OBS is pointless if there's no viable alternative site to sell products from. You just kill the OSR, the only viable remaining movement with anti-woke activism, while OBS takes at most a minor hit.  You're stabbing yourself in the jugular, hoping that some of your blood might stain your enemy's pretty dress.

The answer is CREATE A FUCKING FREE-SPEECH RPG-SELLER WEBSITE THAT WORKS. BGE at this moment is not it.

If the OSR depends upon OBS/DTRPG to survive... does it deserve to survive?

If it doesn't, then you don't have a hobby anymore. The entire hobby will belong to the Stalinists. You'll have been a useful idiot who did their job for them by not supporting the game designers who actually stand up to wokeness.

So I must support abusive woke marxist bastards in order not to be a useful idiot... Maybe I should start knitting... oh never mind. Whittling perhaps. No wokistas in whittling are there???? :)

Presumably you don't have a bank or a mastercard right? Because they've cancelled anti-woke people to. Likewise paypal. And Youtube. No more watching right-wing videos on Youtube, because otherwise you're giving the "libs" money! Better that anyone speaking out or trying to make content that stands up to the neo-marxist assault on our civilization be reduced to living on the streets and only being able to write their rpg products in chalk on the pavement than that you give a single penny to the unfair and unbalanced content providers that nevertheless make it possible for people to create a counterculture that can actually reach someone other than militia members on a cb radio.

Right? Right you fucking moron? Better that the entire hobby burn down so that you can imagine that you've "owned the libs" by costing them a tiny bit of money while bankrupting EVERYONE who was on your side, right? You'll be able to brag about how you never compromised when they send you to a rehabilitation camp, thanking you for having helped them take full control of mainstream society.

The context:

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 25, 2023, 06:00:50 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 25, 2023, 05:58:08 PM

Quote from: Cathode Ray on February 25, 2023, 01:12:45 PM
I don't see anything wrong with what Squirewaldo said.

Well, that post where he said he felt like making an RPG where you play SS Guards raping and killing jews in a death camp, just to "own the libs" of DTRPG in some way.

There you go again taking my comments out of context. Feel free to boot me from this forum since I am so unhinged.

I'm the one who said you are unhinged.

And the suicide by Pundit. Nice. You are following the victim playbook chapter by chapter.

At this point I'm playing the guessing game: Neo-nazi dude pretending to be a Jew  OR  Just a Retard?


Which do you think?

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 25, 2023, 06:11:10 PM
The context:

You are still taking a joke out of context. That was all it was. A joke. Maybe a bad joke. Maybe a stupid joke. But just a joke. A joke I have not repeated after your kind notice of objection. I am in 100% compliance with your dictates. Repeating yourself does not make it any different. Continued accusations are of course your option though since you are El Hefe!

Do what you want; I don't really care anymore. I have been insulted. Called names. Attacked for wrong-think. I might as well join a forum filled with humorless woke drones. Could that be any worse? (Yes, of course it could!!!! That was a tongue in cheek rhetorical question just in case you want to take that comment out of context. No need to explain to me how stupid I am for not realizing how much worse a woke forum would be. Unless it just makes you happy.)

This is my last comment. If you guys want to continue to abuse me, pile on. Call me names. Party on Dudes! I am out of here for now! :)

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 25, 2023, 06:15:05 PM
At this point I'm playing the guessing game: Neo-nazi dude pretending to be a Jew  OR  Just a Retard?

Which do you think?

Just an idiot.

Well, that escalated quickly...

 8) I am thankful to have grown up in a time where every moment of life -- including pre-teen edgelord bullshitting -- was not preserved for posterity like some court transcript. People can be obnoxious shits during hormonal years, or just hormonal, obnoxious shits outside those years. Yet we all didn't have to have community struggle sessions over each breach of universalized expectations of paragon etiquette.

It was a better time when we let most shit slide, minded our manners when people were close enough to punch back at our sass, and enjoyed the sweet mercies of memory's oblivion where we could change and be better people tomorrow.  ;) Now, like diamonds, the social media internet is forever, for good but mostly ill. Only the really useful Web 1.0 stuff fades away, scandalous crap is everlasting.

And now I, as Ozymandius here, am tired and off to the divan to faint.  :-*

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 25, 2023, 06:00:50 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 25, 2023, 05:58:08 PM

Quote from: Cathode Ray on February 25, 2023, 01:12:45 PM
I don't see anything wrong with what Squirewaldo said.

Well, that post where he said he felt like making an RPG where you play SS Guards raping and killing jews in a death camp, just to "own the libs" of DTRPG in some way.

There you go again taking my comments out of context. Feel free to boot me from this forum since I am so unhinged.

My personal rule, and my best advice for anyone, is never to post online while angry.  While angry, one goes strait for extremes - no middle way, no compromise, just damn the torpedoes, full speed!

And right there is where you are.  You have a legit complaint, and people have a legit argument with your position.  Right now though, you're angry and more directed toward conflict than discussion.  Take a day off.  Seriously.  Sleep on it and realize it's just a thread on a forum, not a life breaking decision.

And a company that can claim all your work, submitted or not, is the sterling standard of an abusive monopoly. 

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 23, 2023, 06:53:26 PM
I think S'mon came up with a very good solution, didn't he? There's no need to criticise anyone and the image is still visible by whoever wants to see it, just click on the link   ;D

Indeed, but who is actually accountable for censoring such?

The miniature manufacturer?
The image poster?
The site hosting the link?
The site hosting the image?
The internet service provider?
The payment processor used to pay for it all?

Quote from: Cathode Ray on February 24, 2023, 08:43:11 AM
One game promoted REAL LIFE VIOLENCE, and cited at least one terrorist group of the past as inspiration, and suggested that people be active like them.  I provided sources/  They ignored me because he's a platinum seller (which = $$$ for them), plus the seller's politics align with OBS's left bias.

Why the hell are you activist types so consistently ambiguous (I ask rhetorically because I know damn well what the answer is and am sick of entertaining this bullshit)? Please link and elucidate or go away.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 25, 2023, 01:10:54 AM
In the ongoing drama of DTRPG, I have had 8 new reviews left today. All negative. More reviews than I have received in the last 10 years. Positive reviews have disappeared. Ok.

Holy shit did people just forget how the internet works? If this is the case then provide links and prove it. And if you don't want to link to #DTRPG then link to archives, which would have been useful in proving your good reviews were removed too.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 24, 2023, 02:59:02 PM

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on February 21, 2023, 04:17:01 PM

Quote from: Naburimannu on February 20, 2023, 05:02:42 PM

It takes a couple of seconds of Googling to bring up counter-evidence: https://twitter.com/EvilHatOfficial/status/1448774890266390533; then, a couple of minutes of figuring out Twitter search syntax to get more: https://twitter.com/EvilHatOfficial/status/1463599029212880901

According to the publisher, Thirsty Sword Lesbians sold over 13k copies in the first 3-6 months after the kickstarter, which is grossing 195k+; grossing over $500k in the first year including the second $100k Kickstarter.

Another $40k+ gross in first quarter 2022? https://twitter.com/EvilHatOfficial/status/1516871792140308480

That's not "virtual no money".

Some have accepted the mantra of "get woke go broke" so fervently that they're in complete denial when virtue signaling and pissing off the 'right' people makes bank, even when they profit from the same kind of outrage marketing. And anyone saying this isn't a lot of sales/money when it comes to RPGs is just straightlining copium.

It's not "no money", but it's also not nearly as much money as it sounds. Dude, I did a video about this. When you consider the KS cut, the production costs for fulfillment, and then the fact hat evil hat has what... anywhere from 12-30 people that will need to be paid? That money all evaporates really fast.

If you're a one-man operation, and you are cautious about what you promise in a KS, and you don't have to contract for too much in art costs, layout, etc, you could make a tidy profit. But if you're a bloated company full of useless leftists, the NET (rather than gross) income might not even be enough to satisfy your Kombucha expenses.

Woke or not a lot of money will become very little money if you mismanage things. But I do not know much about #EvilHat's internal operations, and have yet to see how unionizing affected #Paizo.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 24, 2023, 03:18:40 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 23, 2023, 07:12:35 PM
Interestingly, it seems they have about as much income and employees as a creator like Pinnacle Entertainment Group, which also has about $5M yearly income and around 25 employees.

https://www.konaequity.com/company/pinnacle-entertainment-group-inc-4397994889/

How the hell is that even possible?! Pinnacle hasn't had a real hit since the 1990s. It's entirely running on Savage Worlds fandom. Which I guess goes to show that the "Palladium Model" of having a small cadre of absolute fanatics is a pretty good business model.

It'll probably work for the Red Room too.

It makes me sick to say but this is literally the only model which works. And how well this works for #TheRedRoom depends entirely on how much money their whales are willing and able to spend.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 25, 2023, 05:52:46 PM
So I must support abusive woke marxist bastards in order not to be a useful idiot...

Yes.

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism, you can't operate without compromise in a society, and if they're engaging in capitalism they aren't Marxists in the first place.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 20, 2023, 09:32:29 AM
Well, I guess the first question to ask is "which is more viable, trying to get OBS to be more fair, or build enough interest in something like Big Geek Emporium to make it a viable competitor?"

In the annals of history when have any of these fuckwits ever changed course without being completely bought out and replaced? About none. They will die for the cause gladly.

BGG has 4 years in a row underfunded since getting progressively more woke and censoring. Still fucking forging ahead and in the last year added a new "safe space" for non CIS meanies because apparently there was rampant anti gay meanness on the forums just like there was rampant meanness to the poor helpless women. Next will be the Minorities Safe Space and then the Handicapped one.

Drive-Thru will only get worse. Just like Yahoo Groups did.

That's why we need to support places like BGE and spread the word. So at least other folks know of its existence.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 27, 2023, 01:07:53 PM
That's why we need to support places like BGE and spread the word. So at least other folks know of its existence.

If BGE had a single product I was even remotely interested in buying I would throw something their way. They do not.

In terms of prioritizing my gaming expenditures though I prefer to support my local game store with orders instead of anyplace online (and direct from publishers otherwise).

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 27, 2023, 02:11:43 PM
I prefer to support my local game store with orders instead of anyplace online (and direct from publishers otherwise).

I'd be more than happy to support my LFGS except for the fact that they don't sell pdfs (and I only ever buy digital).

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 27, 2023, 02:15:07 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 27, 2023, 02:11:43 PM
I prefer to support my local game store with orders instead of anyplace online (and direct from publishers otherwise).

I'd be more than happy to support my LFGS except for the fact that they don't sell pdfs (and I only ever buy digital).

If I need digital, I prefer going to the publisher directly. Cuts out the middleman so the content creators get more money to produce more content and no need to worry about the potential politics of any middleman either.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 27, 2023, 03:08:56 PM

If I need digital, I prefer going to the publisher directly. Cuts out the middleman so the content creators get more money to produce more content and no need to worry about the potential politics of any middleman either.

That would be preferable alright where possible but quite a lot of devs just outsource it to drivethru, etc.

Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on February 26, 2023, 08:40:21 AM...My personal rule, and my best advice for anyone, is never to post online while angry...

Tillinghast's comment really ...resonates... here. I couldn't resist. All kidding aside, we all get frustrated with all the wokescold nonsense, hypocrisy, censorship and dishonesty. Let's show some grace: equal parts of empathy and restraint for one another. Later, as so many others have frequently suggested - we can win by maintaining positive control over our wallets when it comes to products produced and storefronts operated by those who hate us.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 27, 2023, 03:51:38 PM

That would be preferable alright where possible but quite a lot of devs just outsource it to drivethru, etc.

That, and in the past I have experienced instances when trying to buy from a publisher's site, either my browser or PayPal redlined warned me the transaction would not be secure, do you wish to continue.

That hardly breeds confidence.