Quote from: Bruwulf on February 22, 2023, 01:58:30 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 11:23:32 AM"It's not Cancel Culture! It's Consequences Culture you shitlords!"

I want to understand your position. Is it your belief that (a) everyone should be able to say whatever they want, and, (b), that nobody should be able to respond or act based on those statements?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 11:23:32 AM"Yes, TSL is the exact same and it's allowed to exist but The Red Room went too far with Men and deserve whatever the megacorporation does to them because it's not family friendly!"

I am neither defending TSL nor saying that Men should not be allowed to exist. I am (approximately) equally unhappy both exist, and would as equally defend either one's right to exist.

I know you were not asking me, but I am answering. Perhaps because I am older than most here, I am in favor of 'free speech'. That means I can say whatever I want. That does not mean I can force people to listen.

Today we are being censored by people who then force us to listen to them. That is 'no bueno'! IMHO.

Bugle has the right of it. Reciprocity is a critical element of liberal society.

The reason the western world is this way is because liberals have allowed their values and norms to be exploited and abused by activists and revolutionaries who do not share those values.

I don't know anything about Red Room or their game, but nobody has said anything about them in this thread that isn't also true of Evil Hat. Stop carrying water for left-wing activists.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 22, 2023, 02:05:36 PM
I know you were not asking me, but I am answering. Perhaps because I am older than most here, I am in favor of 'free speech'. That means I can say whatever I want. That does not mean I can force people to listen.

Today we are being censored by people who then force us to listen to them. That is 'no bueno'! IMHO.

I mean, are we? I'm not listening to them.

Quote from: Corolinth on February 22, 2023, 02:29:14 PM
I don't know anything about Red Room or their game, but nobody has said anything about them in this thread that isn't also true of Evil Hat. Stop carrying water for left-wing activists.

And most of us criticize Evil Hat and TSL, too.

Quote from: Bruwulf on February 22, 2023, 07:55:38 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 21, 2023, 04:49:56 PM
You, Pundit, and everyone else taking this position are the sort that goes: "I'm for free speech but".

I know it's a common aphorism to say that "whenever you say <thing, but>, everything before the "but" is a lie". But it's not really true. If I may be somewhat ironic for a moment.

I'm pretty damned close to a free speech absolutist. But. Just because a person has a right to say something, doesn't mean I'm not going to respond to it. If you call me a slur, I'm going to respond. If you stand on a street corner and preach to me about how the Knights Templar are conspiring with lizard people underneath Mt. Rushmore to keep us from realizing that the world is a space station created by God and the sun is an illusion*, I'm going to call you a fucking moron. And if you act like an provocative edgelord, expect people to treat you like a provocative edgelord.

Freedom of speech and thought cuts both ways. I am absolutely for freedom of speech and thought. I am very much against people who think that those things mean that they can waltz through life being an idiot or an asshole and deflect any criticism about their idiocy or assholishness as "but I have the right to say those things!". Yes, you do. That's not in question. So what?

*That's... more or less how I understand an actual existing conspiracy theory to run. I made up the Mt. Rushmore part, but it's a thing. I went down a rabbit hole of Youtube videos about it a while back. Apparently sunspots in camera lenses are signs of the end time because the satellites or breaking down, or something.

The problem is when you become a big tech CEO, and decide those nutty people aren't allowed to post on your site, which happens to be the de facto public square.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 11:23:32 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 20, 1970, 04:51:22 AM
Freedom of Speech does not means freedom from the consequences of your speech.

"It's not Cancel Culture! It's Consequences Culture you shitlords!"

"Yes, TSL is the exact same and it's allowed to exist but The Red Room went too far with Men and deserve whatever the megacorporation does to them because it's not family friendly!"

Then you need to go out and buy WotC products and sign up for DDB right now. How dare you judge them of not being worth buying from based on their speech.

Your ability to dissociate yourself from the statements of others is ALSO a form of free speech.

You want it both ways... you want to be free to dissociate from anyone you disagree with (ex. WotC), but demand everyone else associate with those you do like (ex. BGE) or else they're being censorious. You don't want us to have the freedom to say "I want nothing to do with edgelords and NSFW content producers." I am not allowed Freedom of Speech unless it agrees with you.

How is that any better than the Leftists?

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 22, 2023, 02:05:36 PM

Quote from: Bruwulf on February 22, 2023, 01:58:30 PM
I want to understand your position. Is it your belief that (a) everyone should be able to say whatever they want, and, (b), that nobody should be able to respond or act based on those statements?

I know you were not asking me, but I am answering. Perhaps because I am older than most here, I am in favor of 'free speech'. That means I can say whatever I want. That does not mean I can force people to listen.

Today we are being censored by people who then force us to listen to them. That is 'no bueno'! IMHO.

How old are you, squirewaldo? I'm 53 now, for comparison.

I also favor free speech, regardless of the political content of said speech. So that includes free speech for neonazis, communists, white nationalists, and Islamic fundamentalists just as much as for mainstream political views.

My values on this come from experiences like as a teenager, going with my Presbyterian church group to watch _The Last Temptation of Christ_ and then discuss it afterwards, sharing our criticisms of it. Similarly, I donated money to the ACLU's court battle for nazis right to hold a demonstration -- and then went to a counter-demonstration to directly oppose their views. That to me is the fundamental of free speech. The right of something to exist is different than supporting that view.

Within RPGs, I support the loose moderation of theRPGsite, because I like the openness -- and I dislike when posters are banned for their views. I would also prefer a game outlet to be similar. I'd want an outlet where I could get MyFarog or Police_Procedure as well as more mainstream RPGs.

That said, these examples are private enterprises. This is the Pundit's site, and he has the right to ban people as he pleases. I will express my preference otherwise - I don't think that users like Alathon should have been banned for their views. I had some interesting discussions with Alathon, and I think he was genuinely expressing his views. However, it's not at a point where I'm going to boycott theRPGsite over these bannings. It is still my preferred forum despite my dislike of that.

Likewise, I would prefer that I could get banned games from DriveThruRPG. I'll give them similar feedback, but I'm currently not at a point where I'm going to boycott them. From what I see, they have RPGs ranging from World of Gor and the Hot Chicks RPG to Thirsty Sword Lesbians and Night Witches. I'd prefer they be more open, but I also recognize they are a business trying to make money for themselves.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2023, 03:40:25 PMThen you need to go out and buy WotC products and sign up for DDB right now. How dare you judge them of not being worth buying from based on their speech.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2023, 03:40:25 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 11:23:32 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 20, 1970, 04:51:22 AM
Freedom of Speech does not means freedom from the consequences of your speech.

"It's not Cancel Culture! It's Consequences Culture you shitlords!"

"Yes, TSL is the exact same and it's allowed to exist but The Red Room went too far with Men and deserve whatever the megacorporation does to them because it's not family friendly!"

Then you need to go out and buy WotC products and sign up for DDB right now. How dare you judge them of not being worth buying from based on their speech.

Your ability to dissociate yourself from the statements of others is ALSO a form of free speech.

You want it both ways... you want to be free to dissociate from anyone you disagree with (ex. WotC), but demand everyone else associate with those you do like (ex. BGE) or else they're being censorious. You don't want us to have the freedom to say "I want nothing to do with edgelords and NSFW content producers." I am not allowed Freedom of Speech unless it agrees with you.

How is that any better than the Leftists?

Nice strawman you got going there my dude.

NEVER have I said you as a buyer MUST buy anything.

I've said WE as buyers/creators should support a free speech alternative because the De-Facto monopoly isn't it. I've also said t5his won't happen and we'll get what we fucking deserve.

Speaking of being like the leftists, it's YOU who is speaking in deffense of banning games you don't like because "muh private company can do whatever it wants".

IF DTTRG had to buy anything before putting it on their storefront then I would say they have the right not to buy from anyone, since they don't, and they allow identical games from the leftard point of view then I say they must also allow those from the right point of view, because I'm consistent in my principles.

I want to be able to not buy from anyone, yes, even from people I might agree politically with. Now please point to where I have said anyone MUST buy from anyone.

Quote from: Bruwulf on February 22, 2023, 02:52:17 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 22, 2023, 02:05:36 PM
I know you were not asking me, but I am answering. Perhaps because I am older than most here, I am in favor of 'free speech'. That means I can say whatever I want. That does not mean I can force people to listen.

Today we are being censored by people who then force us to listen to them. That is 'no bueno'! IMHO.

I mean, are we? I'm not listening to them.

Quote from: Corolinth on February 22, 2023, 02:29:14 PM
I don't know anything about Red Room or their game, but nobody has said anything about them in this thread that isn't also true of Evil Hat. Stop carrying water for left-wing activists.

And most of us criticize Evil Hat and TSL, too.

Yes, most of us criticize them, but some of us aren't willing to support The Red Room's right to publish the stuff they want to as long as it's legal.

Some of us are "pro-freespeech" because they don't report TSL or EvilHat, but won't fight for the people on our side if they dare publish something they deem too far or offensive.

Sorry, but IMHO you have to do both and be willing to fight for the right of people to say stuff you find objectionable or you're not pro-freespeech.

IF any right winger wanted to start a campaign to get TSL banned I would speak in defense of the leftards. Just like I now speak in defense of Miguel.

Quote from: Bruwulf on February 22, 2023, 01:58:30 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 11:23:32 AM"It's not Cancel Culture! It's Consequences Culture you shitlords!"

I want to understand your position. Is it your belief that (a) everyone should be able to say whatever they want, and, (b), that nobody should be able to respond or act based on those statements?

a) Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

b) It depends on what type of reponse or action you plan on taking: Hiting someone over words? No. Censoring someone's speech? NO. Cancelling ANYONE for their opinions? FUCK NO!

There's already legal limits most agree to free speech in the USA (Don't ask me about Europe which is fucked including the UK). I'm sick and tired of leftard run megacorporations legislating via TOS.

But unless a law is passed to stop them from doing so or enough people ACT within the law to make them understand nothing will change.

Quote from: Bruwulf on February 22, 2023, 01:58:30 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 11:23:32 AM"Yes, TSL is the exact same and it's allowed to exist but The Red Room went too far with Men and deserve whatever the megacorporation does to them because it's not family friendly!"

I am neither defending TSL nor saying that Men should not be allowed to exist. I am (approximately) equally unhappy both exist, and would as equally defend either one's right to exist.

I am actually deffending BOTH's right to exist.

I am doing so by trying to get people to ACT within the law to make OBS understand their fuckery isn't welcome.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 03:57:48 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2023, 03:40:25 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 22, 2023, 11:23:32 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 20, 1970, 04:51:22 AM
Freedom of Speech does not means freedom from the consequences of your speech.

"It's not Cancel Culture! It's Consequences Culture you shitlords!"

"Yes, TSL is the exact same and it's allowed to exist but The Red Room went too far with Men and deserve whatever the megacorporation does to them because it's not family friendly!"

Then you need to go out and buy WotC products and sign up for DDB right now. How dare you judge them of not being worth buying from based on their speech.

Your ability to dissociate yourself from the statements of others is ALSO a form of free speech.

You want it both ways... you want to be free to dissociate from anyone you disagree with (ex. WotC), but demand everyone else associate with those you do like (ex. BGE) or else they're being censorious. You don't want us to have the freedom to say "I want nothing to do with edgelords and NSFW content producers." I am not allowed Freedom of Speech unless it agrees with you.

How is that any better than the Leftists?

Nice strawman you got going there my dude.

NEVER have I said you as a buyer MUST buy anything.

I've said WE as buyers/creators should support a free speech alternative because the De-Facto monopoly isn't it. I've also said t5his won't happen and we'll get what we fucking deserve.

Speaking of being like the leftists, it's YOU who is speaking in deffense of banning games you don't like because "muh private company can do whatever it wants".

IF DTTRG had to buy anything before putting it on their storefront then I would say they have the right not to buy from anyone, since they don't, and they allow identical games from the leftard point of view then I say they must also allow those from the right point of view, because I'm consistent in my principles.

I want to be able to not buy from anyone, yes, even from people I might agree politically with. Now please point to where I have said anyone MUST buy from anyone.

Nice deflection. First the selective quote and now you keep turning it towards your right to buy what you want when that wasn't even the point of my original post.

My point was that freedom of association is also an element of freedom of speech and expression. I don't want my family-friendly products sold next to products with a nude in a mask on the cover, books with nazi symbols on the covers and all manner of books with "Wretched" in their title.

But if I chose to open a gaming storefront that included more than my own products (call it "Superversive RPGs" for the sake of argument) and Superversive RPGs had a policy of only selling products considered family-friendly because that aligns with my beliefs, according to you I'm being censorious and must put up any NSFW products submitted or I am violating their freedom of speech... never mind that being forced to do so violates MY speech; my choice to not associate with those products. I don't want my products associated even by proximity with that shit.

You demand companies put up products on their storefronts (which costs them money for bandwidth and server space) that they disagree with... that is the opposite of free speech. Requiring businesses to spend money supporting and distributing material they don't believe in is compulsory speech.

What's next? Should Christian churches be forced to put up ads for a Satanic temple and for a website devoted to hookups in their bulletin lest they be censorious of the views of others? Or can one declare "these other businesses do not reflect our values"?

So, yeah, to the extent that being free to associate or dissociate from others is censorship... I am all for it (I call it just another element of freedom of speech). I will take my freedom to have my business and material free of imposed Leftist garbage over being able to force them to support my content on their site.

Freedom of Speech/Expression/Association (they're all elements of the same principle) isn't a singular event... it's a chain. Someone is free to engage in hostile marketing, DrivethruRPG is free to dissociate from them for that, and you are free to not do business with them for that choice of association they made. The moment you shut any of those down in that chain you're denying someone their freedom of speech/expression/association.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2023, 04:43:57 PM
But if I chose to open a gaming storefront that included more than my own products (call it "Superversive RPGs" for the sake of argument) and Superversive RPGs had a policy of only selling products considered family-friendly because that aligns with my beliefs, according to you I'm being censorious and must put up any NSFW products submitted or I am violating their freedom of speech... never mind that being forced to do so violates MY speech; my choice to not associate with those products. I don't want my products associated even by proximity with that shit.

You demand companies put up products on their storefronts (which costs them money for bandwidth and server space) that they disagree with... that is the opposite of free speech. Requiring businesses to spend money supporting and distributing material they don't believe in is compulsory speech.

I think there's a point to compulsory distribution in some cases, but not at the level of a store. I support Net Neutrality for ISPs, where they can't choose to downgrade or block packets depending on where they come from. But I don't think stores should be required to sell all items regardless of their wishes.

Overall, I try to keep all this in perspective. It has never been the case that one could arbitrarily get one's book of arbitrary material published by mainstream stores. Even before the Satanic Panic of the 1980s, I highly doubt the Men RPG would have gotten distribution in any game stores if it were published in the 1970s. For example, the Alma Mater RPG was published in 1982 and banned from Gen Con and many other outlets. Go back to earlier decades, and distribution would overall be equally censorious. I'm not saying that is right -- but it is relevant to how much outrage I have about it happening now.

Hey, quick thought experiment: maybe a massive corporation with a monopolistic grasp on an entire hobby, or even public square, shouldn't have the same right to disassociate as an individual. Because Harry or Bob not buying your product, is not equivalent to no-one being able to buy your product.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2023, 04:43:57 PM

But if I chose to open a gaming storefront that included more than my own products (call it "Superversive RPGs" for the sake of argument) and Superversive RPGs had a policy of only selling products considered family-friendly because that aligns with my beliefs, according to you I'm being censorious and must put up any NSFW products submitted or I am violating their freedom of speech... never mind that being forced to do so violates MY speech; my choice to not associate with those products. I don't want my products associated even by proximity with that shit.

Where's the rule on DTTRPG that says stuff like Men or TSL isn't allowed on the site?

If there is aren't they censoring one while allowing the other?

Is your storefront a de-facto monopoly?

If yes then I do think you should allow anything that's not against US law.

But you keep on carrying water for the leftard run megacorporation.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 22, 2023, 05:48:27 PM
Hey, quick thought experiment: maybe a massive corporation with a monopolistic grasp on an entire hobby, or even public square, shouldn't have the same right to disassociate as an individual. Because Harry or Bob not buying your product, is not equivalent to no-one being able to buy your product.

Something that should be obvious to all.

But "muh lewds, notzee symbols, etc!" "I don't want my family friendly products sold next to those even with NSFW search filters!" (Then make your own store and don't sell anything that goes against your principles).

But if you're a de-facto monopoly you can't expect the same protections as pop&mom down the corner.