Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 11:57:44 AM
Well after five days of reviewing my little adventure about fighting strange occult bad guys during WW II, I got an answer from the assholes at DTRPG (I paraphrase):

Everything is cool with the adventure, although they suggested I change the cover which had a graphic image of the Black Sun (from the 19th Century not related to Nazis)

The Black Sun symbol certainly IS related to Nazis. Just because it predates Nazism as a movement doesn't mean anything. I'm not saying that the image shouldn't be used in a game or even on the cover of a game, it depends on the context. But claiming it's got nothing to do with Nazis is bullshit.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 12:42:18 PM
I know, I could do a Kanye West! Come up with a game where all the players are SS guards in a death camp, and their goal is to kill, rape, and then loot the bodies of dead Jews! All before happy hour! That should get me booted from DTRPG!

I had scrolled past this but then it occurred to me, this terrible idea might be the most banned idea.

It would be banned in all mainstream areas with allegations of anti-semitism, with the reasoning that the concept trivializes a genocide.
It would probably be banned here- either as alleged anti-semitism or simply because it is in such terrible taste.
It would be banned on a nazi website too though!  You can't talk about death camps there either, but for an entirely different reason!

So you may have stumbled upon one of the few concepts for a game that the modern internet is incapable of hosting or expressing.  Truly a solid example of information that is impossible to record on a medium, like a political-topic analog of Godel's Incompleteness Theorums.

Except that Jews aren't the only Semitic people on the planet:

It's a language family, not a race.

Quote from: Effete on February 17, 2023, 08:29:00 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 17, 2023, 01:59:30 AM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 15, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
Last time I was asked, I said DTRPG rarely banned games, but now I'm thinking there should be a list of banned books so we can keep track.

I'd only heard f three cases before this one:

- Tournament of rapists, allegedly because contained (fictional) SA.
- A famous OSR author who was allegedly accused of certain things.
- The Good Syma'arian, allegedly because it contained violence against (fictional) children.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 15, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
And now we got a book banned for no apparent reason, and no suggested changes. Maybe it was the cover? Seems odd, since national-socialist villains are very common.

Based on the other cases, I think this passage from the module ("Black Sun over Europe") stands out as the possible issue:

QuoteFrom the testimony of his accomplices it was discovered that not only did Gille Derais sexually abuse the children prior to murdering them, but he also abused their corpses, and had a particular interest in abusing the wounds and dismembered parts of the dead children. He took "infinitely more pleasure in debauching (the open wounds and bloody entrails)... than in using their natural orifice, in the normal manner."

I don't know if there are other RPG products which have similar, but it seems a common issue between these products.

Ohh, the humanity! Describing how the obviously evil man is obviously evil so the players have a reason to despise him in a FICTIONAL setting is naturally a bridge too far. Now let's all support hormone blockers for 7 year-olds and chemically castrate them as a prelude to the physical genital mutilation they will receive at age 10 in THE REAL WORLD.

If anyone needs me I'll be out back cleaning my woodchipper.

And yet they let White Wolf get away with it. Funny how that is isnt it?

Quote from: Omega on February 18, 2023, 07:42:44 PM

Quote from: Effete on February 17, 2023, 08:29:00 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 17, 2023, 01:59:30 AM
Based on the other cases, I think this passage from the module ("Black Sun over Europe") stands out as the possible issue:

Ohh, the humanity! Describing how the obviously evil man is obviously evil so the players have a reason to despise him in a FICTIONAL setting is naturally a bridge too far. Now let's all support hormone blockers for 7 year-olds and chemically castrate them as a prelude to the physical genital mutilation they will receive at age 10 in THE REAL WORLD.

If anyone needs me I'll be out back cleaning my woodchipper.

And yet they let White Wolf get away with it. Funny how that is isnt it?

From squirewaldo's update, it turns out that I was wrong in my speculation there. DriveThruRPG took a while getting back to him, but they had no problem with the content of the adventure. It sounds like it was suspended solely because of the cover, and it took several days for them to review it.

From a brief scan, they allow many games that include the swastika or black sun on the cover, but in the cases I see, those are as part of an illustration of nazi villains rather than just the symbol by itself.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:49:51 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 18, 2023, 11:57:44 AM
Well after five days of reviewing my little adventure about fighting strange occult bad guys during WW II, I got an answer from the assholes at DTRPG (I paraphrase):

Everything is cool with the adventure, although they suggested I change the cover which had a graphic image of the Black Sun (from the 19th Century not related to Nazis)

The Black Sun symbol certainly IS related to Nazis. Just because it predates Nazism as a movement doesn't mean anything. I'm not saying that the image shouldn't be used in a game or even on the cover of a game, it depends on the context. But claiming it's got nothing to do with Nazis is bullshit.

Never claimed that. The adventure is set in WW II with the SAS and French Resistance fighting a bunch of occult assholes. I said my initial image was from the 19th Century... before the Nazis existed. I did not claim the symbol of the Black Sun was not a nazi symbol.

I have decided that you guys, even if you are pearl clutchers, are probably right. I should not make Kanye West jokes. My synagogue might take away my Pessach Sader table.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:45:45 PMAgain, you can argue about how the policy could be abused or taken too far so that any criticism of DTRPG is cause for suspension, and you can argue that the general policy of suspending products is unfair because DTRPG allows all sorts of atrocious content from the left but suspends products for atrocious content from the right.

But you can't actually deny that the Red Room knew exactly what the fuck it was doing here, and was doing exactly what DTRPG had made the hostile marketing policy, and which I will now admit I was wrong to previously wave off as a fictitious boogeyman.

If somebody says about their product "well this product won't last long on DTRPG" ... well... if they're right, they're right, and why is it a problem to say so? If DriveThru believe in their standards then they should have full confidence that "banned from DTRPG!" marketing reflects badly on the product/publisher, and positively on DTRPG.

Their hostile marketing policy also gives publishers who think DriveThru's standards for banning are not great less options in bringing attention to those standards, pushing back against them, and trying to get public support on the matter.

For example, I've been doing my silly shit since long before I was aware of DriveThru bannings being a thing. I have to field questions about why certain things aren't on there. And based on my own things that aren't allowed there, I know ahead of time certain projects aren't at all likely to be allowed on there. Should I have to take on DriveThru's standards in deciding what I publish? And if my standards for a project are different than DriveThru's, shouldn't I be allowed to acknowledge that in public, and in fact use that information and letting people know "hey, this is one of those things?"

I'm sure they'd prefer nobody ever create anything that generates complaints, and especially that nobody would complain, but that's not the world we live in either way. Some things just aren't for everybody, and indeed very much not for certain people.

And since I very much suspect that their standards for banning are more based on just not wanting the headache of complaints that certain things bring and less on internal convictions, their hostile marketing policy gives all the power to those people who want stricter standards.

"This thing is bad and should be punished by being removed! Hey everyone, let's let DriveThruRPG know!" - listened to and possibly acted upon

"The removal of this thing is bad and the people who wanted it removed are wrong!" - shut your mouth, outlaw

The hostile marketing rule is bad not because "hostile marketing" doesn't exist, but because it pretty much requires one to publicly accept DriveThru as the just and fair final arbiter of what is or is not acceptable.

Thanks, by the way, Howard and JimLotFP. The updated list that I have is:

• "#GamerGate" card game by Desborough in 2014 (single product)
• "Tournament of Rapists" by Scorched Urf' Studios in 2015 (single product)
• Zak Smith products published after 2019
• Transfelinism products in 2019 (everything from company)
• Judges Guild products in 2020 (everything from company?)
• "Zak Has Nothing To Do With This Book" from LotFP in 2020 (single product)
• "Asterion" from LotFP in 2021 (single product)
• "The Good Syma'arian" by Venger Satanis in 2022 (single product)
• Dave Johnson Games in 2022 (everything from company)
• Red Room in 2023 (everything from publisher)

Regardless of the censoring being justifiable or not, there is another aspect to consider: are they banning books that people will be interested in, to the point of going to competition in order to get them?

The more books they ban, the greater the chance of a positive answer.

Although DTRPG is far from having real competition IMO.

And, TBH, if not for these bannings I'd say they provide a decent service - which might be an unpopular opinion to add here.

Of course, like most other publishers, I'm scared of being banned for things I say out of DTRPG (because of the "hostile marketing" clause, etc.), and I'm glad banned publishers can find alternatives.

Quote from: JimLotFP on February 19, 2023, 12:06:12 AM
If somebody says about their product "well this product won't last long on DTRPG" ... well... if they're right, they're right, and why is it a problem to say so? If DriveThru believe in their standards then they should have full confidence that "banned from DTRPG!" marketing reflects badly on the product/publisher, and positively on DTRPG.

Their hostile marketing policy also gives publishers who think DriveThru's standards for banning are not great less options in bringing attention to those standards, pushing back against them, and trying to get public support on the matter.

Also, this (emphasis mine).

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:45:45 PM
Look, you can argue about how there's a double standard of content policing with DTRPG, where a game like Men is banned, but Thirsty Sword Lesbians (which features the sword lesbians purging a restaurant of heterosexuals) is allowed to stay on and become a bestseller.

But there is NO question in my mind that this game "Men" was written not as an RPG but as a POLITICAL MESSAGE. And that it's intent was to be offensive.

Wait, are you suggesting that the intent of Thirsty Sword Lesbians is otherwise?

Quote from: Zalman on February 19, 2023, 08:36:18 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:45:45 PM
Look, you can argue about how there's a double standard of content policing with DTRPG, where a game like Men is banned, but Thirsty Sword Lesbians (which features the sword lesbians purging a restaurant of heterosexuals) is allowed to stay on and become a bestseller.

But there is NO question in my mind that this game "Men" was written not as an RPG but as a POLITICAL MESSAGE. And that it's intent was to be offensive.

Wait, are you suggesting that the intent of Thirsty Sword Lesbians is otherwise?

The game has 3 central design tenets:

1) Virtue signal.
2) Piss off "the right people."
3) Make virtually no money, but still win awards.

Quote from: Zalman on February 19, 2023, 08:36:18 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 18, 2023, 05:45:45 PM
Look, you can argue about how there's a double standard of content policing with DTRPG, where a game like Men is banned, but Thirsty Sword Lesbians (which features the sword lesbians purging a restaurant of heterosexuals) is allowed to stay on and become a bestseller.

But there is NO question in my mind that this game "Men" was written not as an RPG but as a POLITICAL MESSAGE. And that it's intent was to be offensive.

Wait, are you suggesting that the intent of Thirsty Sword Lesbians is otherwise?

I didn't read it that way. He is saying you can make an argument there is a double-standard due to the actions of OBS. What he is saying about "Men" is that it was written with the intent of being offensive. I'm sure he will clarify. I read them as separate thoughts.

Out of all this, best case scenario:

• 
  [BGE/whomever] opens annual crowdfunding to expand market reach and improve services?
  
• 
  Hold a prize raffle with tickets granted per $100+ donation?
  
• 
  Review top 10ish products of the past year over stream events?
  
• 
  Host 5ish one shot demos of top five adventures over stream events?
  
• 
  Partnerships with [Nerdrotic/whomever] to reveal/preview upcoming works?
  

They might outdo us on all of that, but it feels like not much is done on our end but cope.

Edit:
BGE is a terrible choice, fill in the blank.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 14, 2023, 05:48:38 PM
The funny thing is that I was thinking of shutting it down along with just about everything else until my 6 month exclusivity period is over.

I here ya.  I dropped everything in my store to zero, until my exclusion period is done.