In regards to rules systems... one thing I'd drop right off is any sort of spell like Detect Magic... because it sets up magic as being somehow apart/different, when in fairy tales it seems to run through everyone and everything... it's not a discreet/quantifiable substance.

Quote from: Phillip;786950Things H.P. Lovecraft used to impart that are sometimes not so effective with latter-day readers. That's just one example of how the affect of horror can depend on the formative background of the subjects.

I think modern horror movies rely a lot more on jumps scares and gore... which are easier than atmosphere and slow creeping dread/suspense... but when well done those old forms still work... if the viewer/listener/Player is receptive and imaginative.

Quote from: Simlasa;786953In regards to rules systems... one thing I'd drop right off is any sort of spell like Detect Magic... because it sets up magic as being somehow apart/different, when in fairy tales it seems to run through everyone and everything... it's not a discreet/quantifiable substance.

What you'd detect instead is types of influence and association. It would be more like the "readings" of mediums and augurers.

Gold Roger: for problems with symbolism I`m thinking of using a fantasy version of the real world Christianity and all. Hell, it worked for Three Hearts and Three Lions and that`s about as D&D as you can get.

Quote from: Phillip;786955What you'd detect instead is types of influence and association. It would be more like the "readings" of mediums and augurers.

Yeah, that feels right. Call it 'augury' and maybe have it be available at higher levels of perception or somesuch... more like a skill... maybe tied to a background.
A background like coming from a noble family seems like it ought to impart its own sort of magic as well.

I like how Jhkim's article suggests blending normally distinct magic system of most RPGs into the various 'mundane' parts of the system... so that 'heal' and 'crafting' become magical as well... that just about anything people do or make, at a higher degree of skill, can involve some degree of magic... but that it's not so much casting a 'spell'... at least not in the way traditional RPGs portray it. No 'magic swords' (or rather no 'non-magic' swords)... just swords of better or distinctive qualities, bestowed either by their creator or by circumstance of their history.

Quote from: Simlasa;786953I think modern horror movies rely a lot more on jumps scares and gore... which are easier than atmosphere and slow creeping dread/suspense... but when well done those old forms still work... if the viewer/listener/Player is receptive and imaginative.

What I was referring to is that relativity, quantum mechanics, a Boston middle class made up of people whose ancestors came from all over the globe, more widespread atheism, and so on, have made many things that creeped out HPL and his contemporaries rather "So what?" to many people today.

Quote from: Simlasa;786964Yeah, that feels right. Call it 'augury' and maybe have it be available at higher levels of perception or somesuch... more like a skill... maybe tied to a background.
A background like coming from a noble family seems like it ought to impart its own sort of magic as well.

I like how Jhkim's article suggests blending normally distinct magic system of most RPGs into the various 'mundane' parts of the system... so that 'heal' and 'crafting' become magical as well... that just about anything people do or make, at a higher degree of skill, can involve some degree of magic... but that it's not so much casting a 'spell'... at least not in the way traditional RPGs portray it. No 'magic swords' (or rather no 'non-magic' swords)... just swords of better or distinctive qualities, bestowed either by their creator or by circumstance of their history.

Yeah one thing I`m thinking of doing rules-wise is beef up a 2ed-ish proficiency system in which the effects bleed into the magical and Language (Crow) can be taken as easily as Language (Goblin). Works for the sort of heavily focused oe one trick pony kind of magic you often see in fairy tales as well.

Am seeing exploration and outdoor mapping as being very important as well as getting lost leads you to Faerie.

Quote from: Simlasa;786964Yeah, that feels right. Call it 'augury' and maybe have it be available at higher levels of perception or somesuch... more like a skill... maybe tied to a background.
A background like coming from a noble family seems like it ought to impart its own sort of magic as well.

I like how Jhkim's article suggests blending normally distinct magic system of most RPGs into the various 'mundane' parts of the system... so that 'heal' and 'crafting' become magical as well... that just about anything people do or make, at a higher degree of skill, can involve some degree of magic... but that it's not so much casting a 'spell'... at least not in the way traditional RPGs portray it. No 'magic swords' (or rather no 'non-magic' swords)... just swords of better or distinctive qualities, bestowed either by their creator or by circumstance of their history.

The Land in the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant strikes me as depicting much of this in ways that could translate into game mechanics that are very easy for players to incorporate into role-playing.

Quote from: Phillip;786968The Land in the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant strikes me as depicting much of this in ways that could translate into game mechanics that are very easy for players to incorporate into role-playing.

For example?
I read the first book in High School and don't remember much accept that the 'hero'  was a jerk (which I liked).

Now that I think of it, Earthdawn took some long strides towards this sort of thing... by having all the 'Talents' of the PCs be pretty much magical abilities. The rules were far too convoluted for my taste... but that did give the game a distinctive air of 'magic is everywhere'... along with it's other great notion of items gaining power when used to accomplish epic deeds... and that gaining access to that power required learning, and to some extent re-enacting, the story of that item.
There were group items also, where everyone shared an oath and carried an item symbolic of that oath and drew support from it. That seems fitting as well.

Quote from: Phillip;786965What I was referring to is that relativity, quantum mechanics, a Boston middle class made up of people whose ancestors came from all over the globe, more widespread atheism, and so on, have made many things that creeped out HPL and his contemporaries rather "So what?" to many people today.

Oh, OK... I thought you were pushing the idea I often see expressed that modern audiences... having seen so many monsters and murders on movie/TV screens... would no longer be frightened when meeting something like a Deep One out in the alley while taking out the garbage. Which is similar to assuming we're all hardened combat veterans because we've sat through a bunch of war movies.

For comments about Earthdawn, that's a good idea, I'm thinking of raiding that for Proficiencies that would dance on the border of the magical and the mundane. Any other good sources for that sort of thing (talking to crows, smelling gold, walking across snow like Legolas, etc. etc. etc.)? The lower tier of Exalted charms?

OK, applying jhkim's dictum that fairy tale magic should avoid "Magic works regardless of morality, ethics, or other intangibles":

Magic items are often symbols of intangible things

Symbols are massively important in dream logic and fairy tale magic often consists of giving these symbols flesh.

A lady's favor wrapped around a knight's arm can protect them from the enchantment of a succubus but only so long as the knight remains true to his love. The bread baked by a child's mother can feed them for weeks even in the land of faerie but if they break their promise to their mother it quickly fills with quivering grubs.

Magic should often be tied to some moral or other intangible quality and when that quality fails the magic fails along with it. Basically these objects should be completely unimportant Dumbo feathers and powerful magic items at the same time, they can't ever become solely one or the other.

I've tried very hard to build some magical logic into my magic rules.  However at the same time I always want the magic system to treat similar results similarly, for instance summoning creatures tends to be game mechanic oriented.

In theory there should be things that are easier to summon that are powerful and things that are hard to summon but weak.  Magic's like that.  I do tend towards demons being particularly easy to call up because they want to come.

Useful links to some fairytale motifs and tropes: http://oaks.nvg.org/pega4.html and http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/folktexts.html

Hope these prove helpful.

Quote from: Daztur;786688Horror is about the dissolution of the natural order

That is a major thesis of H P Lovecraft in Supernatural Horror in Literature for weird fiction.

For the Grail post upthread, I'm not sure how I'd treat the Holy Grail specifically as I can't quite recall from why all the knights wanted it so much aside from wanting bragging rights. But the idea of having a magic item be famous across the land and have bunches of people looking for it is good as is the history behind it.

For magic items I'm thinking of the following categories for fairy tale D&D:
-Craft: stuff a guy made, often with whimsical ingredients. Generally not that powerful and usually single use. Example: potions.
-Favors: a gift that seems mundane but the relationship between the giver and the receiver give it power as long as that relationship remains intact. Example: a dying mother's last gift for their only child. These would be powerful but limited and narrow in their application.
-Artifacts: something that is built into human history like the Holy Grail and that everybody would immediately know about. These would be overwhelmingly powerful, often dangerously so.

Quote from: Daztur;787221For the Grail post upthread, I'm not sure how I'd treat the Holy Grail specifically as I can't quite recall from why all the knights wanted it so much aside from wanting bragging rights. But the idea of having a magic item be famous across the land and have bunches of people looking for it is good as is the history behind it.

I don't know its significance in the original stories but in Boorman's movie it seems to have vast restorative powers... instant Spring and shiny armor on everyone. It restored the land.

I'd want Artifacts to have a large presence... like, just being around it could inspire people or send them into despair without even knowing it's there.