Yea honestly I'm going to convert everything to ascending AC. I understand how thac0 works, and I don't begrudge those that prefer it, but as somebody whos first real exposure to TTRPGs was PF, ascending ac will always be my native language. The conversion's not hard.

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on February 25, 2024, 12:37:12 PM
Yea honestly I'm going to convert everything to ascending AC. I understand how thac0 works, and I don't begrudge those that prefer it, but as somebody whos first real exposure to TTRPGs was PF, ascending ac will always be my native language. The conversion's not hard.

At the end of the day, it will always be a much simpler job for me as GM to describe AC as " Roll under. Bigger number better." than "okay so you look at the AC and then consult the attack matrix and cross reference it making sure to keep all your bonuses in mind. Remember that lower is better even though you've probably had years of video games training you that higher is better including DnD video games. But you can break out of that and... wait, where are you going?"

Some may turn their noses up at this idea of making rules you can actually explain to a player verbally succinctly. But I actually want to have fun and not spend large amounts of time consulting charts and tables for abstract results that I need to calculate using maths. I'm not against the use of maths or crunch in games (My favorite RPG of all time is Dark Heresy after all) so long as it's something the average person or at least the GM can calculate quickly in their head. Descending AC and THAC0 is not that. 

Quote from: King Tyranno on February 25, 2024, 03:08:23 PM

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on February 25, 2024, 12:37:12 PM
Yea honestly I'm going to convert everything to ascending AC. I understand how thac0 works, and I don't begrudge those that prefer it, but as somebody whos first real exposure to TTRPGs was PF, ascending ac will always be my native language. The conversion's not hard.

At the end of the day, it will always be a much simpler job for me as GM to describe AC as " Roll under. Bigger number better." than "okay so you look at the AC and then consult the attack matrix and cross reference it making sure to keep all your bonuses in mind. Remember that lower is better even though you've probably had years of video games training you that higher is better including DnD video games. But you can break out of that and... wait, where are you going?"

Some may turn their noses up at this idea of making rules you can actually explain to a player verbally succinctly. But I actually want to have fun and not spend large amounts of time consulting charts and tables for abstract results that I need to calculate using maths. I'm not against the use of maths or crunch in games (My favorite RPG of all time is Dark Heresy after all) so long as it's something the average person or at least the GM can calculate quickly in their head. Descending AC and THAC0 is not that.

So you play with morons?  Calculating THACO or descending AC is literally low level elementary school math, on the level of making change for a dollar.  It's the same level as using ascending AC except with subtraction.  Now it may be marginally slower for the "average person", but c'mon, is it really that hard?  And if it's written on your character sheet, as is standard for old school games you're actually not even calculating anything.

That being said, having read, or at least skimmed the pdf of "Dragonslayer," I didn't see where he actually explained how the attacks work anywhere.  It seems implied, which is definitely an issue for newbies.

Chapter 7: How To Attack.

Its even bookmarked in the PDF.

Kek. Didn't intend to start a THAC0 v AAC war. But I'm here for it. Lemme make my popcorn.

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on February 26, 2024, 01:18:30 AM
Kek. Didn't intend to start a THAC0 v AAC war. But I'm here for it. Lemme make my popcorn.

Greetings!

*Laughing* popcorn indeed!

*Shrugs* It seems like a pretty stupid thing to get bent out of shape over, doesn't it? THACO is irrelevant. Most gamers--even "Old School" gamers--seem to believe that THACO is far inferior as a system than Ascending AC. I can't count the *legions* of gamers that praised AAC in preference to THACO. Certainly, OSR systems have much to praise that remain fun, effective, and brilliant, even.

THACO isn't one of those systems though. The "New School" has made some improvements and refinements of the D&D game over the years. Getting rid of THACO and replacing it with Ascending AC is definitely one of those improvements. Just thinking about it from a logical approach, and actual usage, it is obvious that THACO is awkward and primitive by comparison.

In letters in Dragon Magazine, and of course on online forums, many, many gamers celebrated THACO being done away with. The few people that somehow *liked* THACO--and argued in favour of it against Ascending AC have generally, in my experience, been few and far between.

Contrary to what a few THACO partisans like to believe, just about everyone thinks that THACO is awkward and *not* intuitive, whereas Ascending AC is much simpler and more intuitive for everyone at the table.

Myself, well, as an "Old School" gamer, a Grognard certainly--I like most things from the OSR and back in the day, but like others, I don't miss using THACO, or explaining it to players, or new gamers. Ascending AC is just simpler and easier to use and explain, for everyone.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on February 26, 2024, 01:18:30 AM
Kek. Didn't intend to start a THAC0 v AAC war. But I'm here for it. Lemme make my popcorn.

They're the same thing except one is + and the other is -.

THACO was an innovation to help people not have to look things up on an ATTACK MATRIX.   

You can say that ASCENDING ARMOR CLASS, is one further innovation toward that end. 

However if you want to use THACO, or descending AC to keep undesirables out of your game, you might be on to something. 

Back in the day, we had to adapt to the game.  We learned the rules inside and out, and then we broke, or changed them to suit our needs.  There was a sort of discipline involved.  It was a test to see who really loved the game and who was going to stick around.  Character death, shitty stats, save-or-die, THACO... these were the things you had to endure to prove your love for the game. 

This "ATTACK MATRIX" sounds like a neat idea. No more picking whatever has the most or highest bonus, weapons preform differently based on the target's protection...

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on February 26, 2024, 04:52:10 AM
THACO was an innovation to help people not have to look things up on an ATTACK MATRIX.   

Well, in that it failed miserably because we all still looked up every roll on a chart. We just switched from reading the chart in the book to copying the relevant line onto our character sheets. No one I played with calculated THAC0 at the table. The calculations for what was needed to hit every armor class were done beforehand, and written as a 1-line matrix on the character sheet.

I agree it's a natural evolution though -- THAC0 was an attempt to turn a lookup into a calculation. Ascending AC actually achieved that.

Greg seems clearly attached to descending AC for nostalgia reasons (and perhaps the side benefit of gatekeeping) ... which is cool, just saying that I haven't heard him argue that it's "easier" (caveat, I wasn't watching too closely).

I don't see the issue here.

THAC0 18 vs AC 7 = 11+ to hit

THAC0 14 vs AC 2 = 12+ to hit

THAC0 8 vs AC -2 = 10+ to hit

Etc.

Working out what you need to hit takes a second, then you roll the d20, and add relevant modifiers.

Quote
Greg seems clearly attached to descending AC for nostalgia reasons (and perhaps the side benefit of gatekeeping) ... which is cool, just saying that I haven't heard him argue that it's "easier" (caveat, I wasn't watching too closely).

I get that feeling too. I also believe the choice was made because all of his megadungeons use descending armor class, and he also wanted the game to be immediately useable with older edition adventure modules.

I've been playing the game for months, with ages ranging from 11-52 (damn am I that old already) and the kids caught onto descending AC pretty fast. I personally prefer ascending, but its not a deal breaker.

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on February 26, 2024, 01:18:30 AM
Kek. Didn't intend to start a THAC0 v AAC war. But I'm here for it. Lemme make my popcorn.

Pretty much every one of these discussions ends up devolving into it somehow.

I find in games that use descending AC there's less of this:

Player: <Rolls dice> 15!

GM: Before or after mods?

In many games that use descending AC the last step for the player is looking up an AC on the little matrix. By the time you're doing that, you've already added any modifiers not reflected in the matrix. So when you announce a number, the GM and everyone else knows it's the AC that you hit.

This is of course perfectly doable with ascending AC because the math is the same. Just tell your players to report modified rolls. But I find, whether it's the rules themselves or the people who play descending AC games, the slight annoyance mentioned above happens much less frequently.

Besides tradition and gatekeeping, this is minor, but I think it plays a part.

Quote from: rytrasmi on February 26, 2024, 02:53:14 PM
I find in games that use descending AC there's less of this:

Player: <Rolls dice> 15!

GM: Before or after mods?

In many games that use descending AC the last step for the player is looking up an AC on the little matrix. By the time you're doing that, you've already added any modifiers not reflected in the matrix. So when you announce a number, the GM and everyone else knows it's the AC that you hit.

This is of course perfectly doable with ascending AC because the math is the same. Just tell your players to report modified rolls. But I find, whether it's the rules themselves or the people who play descending AC games, the slight annoyance mentioned above happens much less frequently.

Besides tradition and gatekeeping, this is minor, but I think it plays a part.

Yes, which one works best depends so much on how the GM runs the game, and the flow of information, that it would be difficult to provide a general answer outside of exhaustive observation of many games.  Plus, whatever habits people get into is telling.  So you can't just switch back and forth between ascending and descending with most groups and get a fair experiment. 

I built my system with ascending defenses, and also where a 15 or better is usually a success.  I remind the players that absent a description of the opponent being heavily armored, very agile, or I have otherwise specifically called them out as difficult to hit, a 15 hits.  So absent that, only need to tell me the exact number if it is less than 15 (which might still hit).  And this directly correlates to their characters too,  Nevertheless, it takes a lot longer to settle in for some players than others:

- Some get it right away. They roll an 18, roll damage, and just tell me "I hit for N".
- Some will need to be told 10+ times over so many fights before it sinks in.
- I'm still waiting on a few, because they are stuck with false precision, where to them it is important that I know they got a 16 or 18 or even 22 even after multiple other people in the same fight have hit with even a 13. 

So "higher is always better" is generally easier to manage, but it does have its negative side for players who lose sight of the fact that they are merely trying to get high enough.