Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on February 20, 2024, 11:47:55 AM

QuoteFor me to play OSE *Advanced* Fantasy (which is the equivalent of Dragonslayer's Basic/Advanced mix), it will cost me at least $80 (£63.22) and that's without the reference sheet booklet which is very handy to have but adds $10 (£7.90). So at least $80.00 (£63.22) and as much as $100 (£79.03).

Dragonslayer is most definitely not the equivalent of OSE Advanced Fantasy, its more in comparison with Advanced Labyrinth Lord.

I second this. I would go as far as saying that when using LL supplements, they're 100% compatible with Dragonslayer.

I thought I read somewhere that Dragonslayer was a mash-up of Basic/Advanced. Perhaps I'm misremembering. Anyway, it'll cost £36 to have the pdf printed out in coil-bound format. So somewhat cheaper and it'll lay flat. I'm tempted.

Quote from: Scutter on February 20, 2024, 02:11:43 PM
I thought I read somewhere that Dragonslayer was a mash-up of Basic/Advanced. Perhaps I'm misremembering. Anyway, it'll cost £36 to have the pdf printed out in coil-bound format. So somewhat cheaper and it'll lay flat. I'm tempted.

You're correct on Dragonslayer being the best of B/X and AD&D 1st ed.

Quote from: Scutter on February 20, 2024, 02:11:43 PM
I thought I read somewhere that Dragonslayer was a mash-up of Basic/Advanced. Perhaps I'm misremembering. Anyway, it'll cost £36 to have the pdf printed out in coil-bound format. So somewhat cheaper and it'll lay flat. I'm tempted.

You are correct there, but not about the two games being the same. There are very real differences in the spells, spell aquisition and selection and the power of magic items.  These differences become very pronounced between 5th and 9th level.

Can't find a character sheet for this. Actually can't find any resource/download site for anything Dragonslayer.

There's one in the PDF, though it's at the front of the book

Quote from: blackstone on February 20, 2024, 03:04:35 PM

Quote from: Scutter on February 20, 2024, 02:11:43 PM
I thought I read somewhere that Dragonslayer was a mash-up of Basic/Advanced. Perhaps I'm misremembering. Anyway, it'll cost £36 to have the pdf printed out in coil-bound format. So somewhat cheaper and it'll lay flat. I'm tempted.

You're correct on Dragonslayer being the best of B/X and AD&D 1st ed.

Personally, the best of B/X and AD&D 1st Ed are B/X and AD&D 1e. They each have a distinct flavor, trying to mix them ruins the mix. You can house rule either, but mixing the two?


I still haven't really perused it seriously, but a number of things leap out at me.

Firstly, the art is coherent. Not especially good, but not bad and coherent, same style and the monster pictures echo the 1e MM.

Secondly, the rules seem familiar at first glance, but weird upon second glance.

For instance, instead of using THAC0 or Attack Bonus, somehow both are used.   First you find the THAC0 as if it were 20, like something has an AC or 5, you'd subtract that from 20 to get 15. But then characters have attack bonus, so you roll the d20, add the attack bonus, and compare to the number from the first step.

It's like the worst of both. Still better than ACKS.

Attack Bonus progressions are weird, apparently deliberately so to encourage flanking and maximizing bonuses.  For instance, fighter types stay at +0 until 3rd level, at which point it increases by 1 until 10th (at which point, progress apparently stops). Cleric types are close to B/X, but a little worse, topping out at +4 at 10th level. Thieves backstab doesn't seem to improve.

But on the flip side, characters all get 10 hit dice and after 10th level, they still get constitution modifiers for hit points.

So you're likely to end up at higher levels with characters with a lot of hit points who can't hit anything.

Quote from: JeremyR on February 22, 2024, 05:01:47 PM

Quote from: blackstone on February 20, 2024, 03:04:35 PM

Quote from: Scutter on February 20, 2024, 02:11:43 PM
I thought I read somewhere that Dragonslayer was a mash-up of Basic/Advanced. Perhaps I'm misremembering. Anyway, it'll cost £36 to have the pdf printed out in coil-bound format. So somewhat cheaper and it'll lay flat. I'm tempted.

You're correct on Dragonslayer being the best of B/X and AD&D 1st ed.

Personally, the best of B/X and AD&D 1st Ed are B/X and AD&D 1e. They each have a distinct flavor, trying to mix them ruins the mix. You can house rule either, but mixing the two?


I still haven't really perused it seriously, but a number of things leap out at me.

Firstly, the art is coherent. Not especially good, but not bad and coherent, same style and the monster pictures echo the 1e MM.

Secondly, the rules seem familiar at first glance, but weird upon second glance.

For instance, instead of using THAC0 or Attack Bonus, somehow both are used.   First you find the THAC0 as if it were 20, like something has an AC or 5, you'd subtract that from 20 to get 15. But then characters have attack bonus, so you roll the d20, add the attack bonus, and compare to the number from the first step.

It's like the worst of both. Still better than ACKS.

Attack Bonus progressions are weird, apparently deliberately so to encourage flanking and maximizing bonuses.  For instance, fighter types stay at +0 until 3rd level, at which point it increases by 1 until 10th (at which point, progress apparently stops). Cleric types are close to B/X, but a little worse, topping out at +4 at 10th level. Thieves backstab doesn't seem to improve.

But on the flip side, characters all get 10 hit dice and after 10th level, they still get constitution modifiers for hit points.

So you're likely to end up at higher levels with characters with a lot of hit points who can't hit anything.

Yeah, while I like much of what's in here, the whole attack progression thing is weird.  This is made worse in that he uses the fighter progression for monsters rather than simply giving them an attack bonus equal to hit dice like you get in Castles & Crusades.  I've already decided that we'll just use one of my other games' GM screens and go with the matrices there.  As for the hit dice thing, I just let characters keep rolling for hit dice all the way through.  If the monsters can do it, why not the PCs?  Our lethal crit system balances it out.

That does sound a little odd, and overly complicated. I was considering this or OSE Advanced and now I'm strongly favouring the latter.

Quote from: Scutter on February 23, 2024, 04:12:33 AM
That does sound a little odd, and overly complicated. I was considering this or OSE Advanced and now I'm strongly favouring the latter.

Just remember that OSE Adanced only goes up to level 14.  If you want to take the game any higher than that you have to do some homework. 

The equipment available is from the B/X expert rules with some animals added (dogs).  So if you are okay with plate mail armor costing 60gp then just use the prices as is.  That little aspect of B/X always struck me as too good to be true.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on February 23, 2024, 04:51:36 AM

Quote from: Scutter on February 23, 2024, 04:12:33 AM
That does sound a little odd, and overly complicated. I was considering this or OSE Advanced and now I'm strongly favouring the latter.

Just remember that OSE Adanced only goes up to level 14.  If you want to take the game any higher than that you have to do some homework. 

The equipment available is from the B/X expert rules with some animals added (dogs).  So if you are okay with plate mail armor costing 60gp then just use the prices as is.  That little aspect of B/X always struck me as too good to be true.

If you have access to ACKS I think it would not be hard to integrate the rules for high level spells. I think that is the biggest sticking point for some with a 14 level cap.

I'm ok with a level 14 cap because, in over 40 years of roleplaying, I can count on one hand the number of times we've had pcs go beyond 14th.

Rethinking the combat rules for Dragonslayer, as I've been watching an actual play on YT, the combat rules play fast. Greg seemed to be adding the opponent's AC to a positive modifier (no doubt the Attack Bonus), and if they got over 20, it was a successful hit. So something like 1d20 + AC + AB => 20.

What is odd though, is how fighters don't get any Attack Bonuses until level 3. That feels like mangling certain rules so you can have them interact with another rule (flanking/rear attack bonuses).

you could always house rule stuff. nobody says you can't

Quote from: JeremyR on February 22, 2024, 05:01:47 PM
Secondly, the rules seem familiar at first glance, but weird upon second glance.

For instance, instead of using THAC0 or Attack Bonus, somehow both are used.   First you find the THAC0 as if it were 20, like something has an AC or 5, you'd subtract that from 20 to get 15. But then characters have attack bonus, so you roll the d20, add the attack bonus, and compare to the number from the first step.

It's like the worst of both. Still better than ACKS.
...

My one knock on ACKs is its use of AC0, before you add armor bonuses instead of AC10, like conventional ascending AC. Slightly different for no discernable reason.

Looks like DragonSlayer went the same route. Did something different, because reasons...

In my opinion; Either 100% cater to the old school, and use the actual old school mechanics (like Hyperboria did), or just use standard ascending AC.

I find the creation of 'alternate' old-school mechanics more than a bit perplexing.

QuotePersonally, the best of B/X and AD&D 1st Ed are B/X and AD&D 1e. They each have a distinct flavor, trying to mix them ruins the mix. You can house rule either, but mixing the two?

I have to disagree there.  When AD&D came out and many of the rules in the new edition didn't make any sense, especially to the younger players, this mix and match of the rules from both editions is what most tables were playing with.

QuoteFirstly, the art is coherent. Not especially good, but not bad and coherent, same style and the monster pictures echo the 1e MM.

Art is definitely subjective, but these artists are a mix of the best of old and new.

QuoteFor instance, instead of using THAC0 or Attack Bonus, somehow both are used.   First you find the THAC0 as if it were 20, like something has an AC or 5, you'd subtract that from 20 to get 15. But then characters have attack bonus, so you roll the d20, add the attack bonus, and compare to the number from the first step.

Not sure what the problem here is. Its pretty simple.  Everyone has to modify their THACO for high or low ability scores, this just couples your attack progression with your ability modifier. Roll and adjust what you hit. Literally no difference.

One option that Greg has for monsters in the game is:

QuoteAlternatively, the Maze Controller can use a Target20 Combat Roll. The monster rolls a 1d20 and adds its HD and the AC of the target. The monster scores a hit if the result is 20 or higher.

I use this in my Forbidden Caverns of Archaia game and it works very well.

QuoteAttack Bonus progressions are weird, apparently deliberately so to encourage flanking and maximizing bonuses.  For instance, fighter types stay at +0 until 3rd level, at which point it increases by 1 until 10th (at which point, progress apparently stops). Cleric types are close to B/X, but a little worse, topping out at +4 at 10th level. Thieves backstab doesn't seem to improve.

I have no problem with the limited attack bonuses in the game, I prefer to keep the bonuses within reason for the players, even if it means tougher opponents. I agree about the issue with the thief backstab not progressing, I miss that, considering I'm playing an 8th level Dragonslayer thief in a 3 year long Barrowmaze campaign.(We've been using Dragonslayer for a few months, since Greg was kind enough to share an early draft of the PDF with us)

QuoteSo you're likely to end up at higher levels with characters with a lot of hit points who can't hit anything.

I can tell you that isn't the case at all, at least not in our game. We play characters ranging from 7th - 10th level and have had no issues hitting monsters, even ones of higher hit dice.


For those of you looking for a charcter sheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1T9PnWKLWtWFbH1ccC7NyYV4p49UC9fN5/view?usp=sharing